Minecraft community's had at least a passing interest in Sauerbraten(/Cube 2 Engine) almost since Minecraft had a community.
Converting levels was something I considered, but wasn't interested enough to do, so this is pretty awesome stuff. (I also wanted to try making some Sauer player models imitating the Minecraft mobs, but bleh.)
^^ That is the first mine in this thread so far that is actually a strip mine.
Do you people even know what a strip mine is? I get the feeling you're all just tossing the term around without any regard for what it actually means because you think it sounds cool or something.
This seems like a nice application, and it's awesome that it can run natively on operating systems that aren't Windows, and that you've decided to license it with the GPL. So many Minecraft utilities apparently made by people who seem to have no idea that anything other than Windows exists, or are for some reason under the impression that Wine and such are magical things that flawlessly execute Windows applications by the combined power of the gods or whatever.
Rant up there ^^^ feedback down here now VVV
For some reason the file browser shows hidden files, so ~/ is filled with config directories and such. Not that big a deal, but it's a bit awkward. (Linux Mint)
And I think it would be a lot better if, instead of buttons bringing up new windows, the application just had each feature in a tab at the top of the interface.
I swear people on here turn into babies when someone says the word "grief".
Avoiding people like you is the reason this thread was made. If you want to contribute to the discussion, contribute. Don't just say everyone who disagrees with you is a baby and be done with it.
So, most of the people here saying that 'anything goes no matter what' in SMP seem to be promoting the idea that SMP will have a very clear hierarchy of players: the 'hardcore' people, who are good enough to kill most anyone, who are at the top, and get to do whatever they want, and the 'casual' people, who aren't as good and are only in the game so that the hardcore people can have fun. You excuse those casual people by saying that it's their fault for not being so hardcore, but you should try to understand that, really, not everyone wants to play Minecraft like it's a Serious Business Competitive Game. Specifically, Bearodactyl, you said that a server where PVP isn't allowed would be pointless and may as well not even have mobs, so I'm going to assume that you have no idea what cooperative gameplay is. Basically, that's where multiple players play a game together, helping each other as a team instead of competing against each other.
This is an attitude that seems to be very mainstream in 'competitive' games; skilled people get to do whatever they want, and less skilled people have to let them and deal with it, or go somewhere else. The effect is that the less skilled players aren't allowed to have fun, and that really defeats the idea of gaming. I don't think everyone (because you seem to think that anyone who doesn't want SMP to be a free-for-all murderfest should just go play Creative because they're little babies) wants to play a super-competitive Minecraft. They want to have FUN with other people, defending a little base from blocky monsters, not getting **** on by people like you who think that if you're having fun and they weren't able to stop you (because they don't want to play the game the way you want to), they don't deserve to be playing anyway.
So, in response to all the threads about griefing in Survival Multiplayer, I talked to Animator about it an IRC and he recommended that I make a thread specifically for this topic that would have protection from locking/deletion and that would be moderated to ensure calm discussion.
So this is that thread. The idea here is to discuss the implications of, possibility of, solutions to, and whatever else regarding the act of griefing in Survival Multiplayer.
To get the discussion started, my post in a recently deleted thread conveniently copy-pasted:
I believe that griefing is entirely possible in Survival. Yes, it's "Survival" which means it's about surviving, but this is also a game which, ideally, involves all parties enjoying themselves. Survival multiplayer being... multiplayer, I think that there is an implicit duty on everyone's shoulders to try to maintain a sense of enjoyment, no matter what is actually happening in the game. The same way in an FPS game, extremely skilled players playing against new players and constantly shoving "LOL NOOB U SUK GO DIE LOLOL" is frowned upon. They're showing a blatant disregard for a *universal* enjoyment of the game, and end up looking like a jerk. If someone in Survival Multiplayer is just emerging from their mine with their first bit of diamond, and they're happy and having fun because they're excited to see what kind of things they can do with their three diamond blocks, being randomly slaughtered by some faceless goon who jumped out from behind a tree will ruin their fun. The bandit has failed to understand the fact that the idea of the game is for everyone to enjoy themselves, and has become, if not a griefer, at least a huge jackass.
Note that I'm by no means condemning the act of banditry in Survival Multiplayer, I'm simply suggesting that anyone who intends to engage in it should make sure to do it in such a way that, instead of increasing gameplay for them and decreasing gameplay for others, increases gameplay for both parties. This really wouldn't be as hard as some people here might think, considering the consensus that dickery is totally okay in Survival Multiplayer. Really, all a potential bandit would have to do is consider the amount of involvement his victim has in the attack. If a bandit slashes them twice with a diamond sword before their victim has a chance to react, the victim has had effectively zero involvement, and the result is that the experience for the victim wasn't so much 'gameplay' as it was a random, unpreventable death. Consider the idea that, within the game's economy, different resources introduce different gameplay, be it by increasing a player's 'worth' (that is, making them a more high-profile target for thieves) or by making them an economic hub to serve as a medium between multiple other parties for trading or other things. What a player expects to happen when they procure new resources (like diamond, using the above example), is for the number of things they become involved in to increase. It is necessary for that to happen in order for the game to remain enjoyable for the player. Taking the above example, in which a bandit simply slaughters a player from behind without allowing them a chance to actually react (and thus become an actual part of the event), the player's expected increase in gameplay options doesn't occur; they just die and have to start over.
So what a bandit needs to do to make an actual attack fun for both the bandit and the victim is to, essentially, roleplay a chivalrous swashbuckling highwayman, such can be found in most fiction regarding bandits nowadays) and not a heartless murderer. I'm not saying that Survival Multiplayer should be like a big game of Dungeons and Dragons, I'm just saying that in order for the game to remain fun for everyone, it's necessary for players to occasionally 'get into it' instead of playing like Minecraft is a stat-crunching gear-grinding robotfest. A bandit should approach from the front, say something to his victim, let the victim reply first, perhaps even consider what they say (hell, maybe form a bandit duo!), and when an actual fight happens, play it like a fantasy action movie. Don't just take out a bow and shove a deluge of arrows down the throat of their helpless, cornered enemies. Maybe even let the victim hand over their stuff and leave with their life instead of coldly destroying them to get their loot. All of these things make playing a bandit fun (unless the player thinks it's fun to ruin other people's fun, in which case they are most certainly a griefer), and increase amount of gameplay potential for the victim, by changing the way the game world (which in this case just happens to include other real-life people) reacts to their character.
Basically, what I'm saying is that people apparently are overlooking the fact that the idea of Minecraft is for everyone to have fun, and assuming that if everyone is killing each other and stealing other people's stuff, it must be totally okay to make the game less fun for everyone else because they can't or won't try to come up with a way to make the overall experience enjoyable no matter what side you're on; criminal or victim.
---
So what does everyone here think? Is griefing possible? Is stealing/killing without remorse okay in Survival Multiplayer? What sorts of things do you think servers will do to combat it?
When Notch said that "I want forum posts asking 'how do i kill dragon' with replies reading 'lol'" bit, he was saying it to emphasize that he wanted the dragons (when he added them) to be insanely difficult to kill, such that most people would probably just think they were invincible.
Notch has told us on the IRC a few times that his whole "NO DRAGONS EVAAAAR" thing is a joke.
He also said he would never add ladders.
Indeed.
So also, if you want Notch to add dragons, but don't think he will, the best thing to do is flood his inbox with emails whose subject line is "Dragons?" or "Do you plan on adding dragons?" or "PLZ AD DARGONZZZZ"
When Notch said that "I want forum posts asking 'how do i kill dragon' with replies reading 'lol'" bit, he was saying it to emphasize that he wanted the dragons (when he added them) to be insanely difficult to kill, such that most people would probably just think they were invincible.
Notch has told us on the IRC a few times that his whole "NO DRAGONS EVAAAAR" thing is a joke.
This thread inspired me to make my own box art. Got Wii and XBox 360 done right now, in finished (although I might make some changes later) stages. Only real problem I have with these two is the really large amount of emptiness in the upper halves of the images.
And Lmaoboat, so sad, but I don't think anyone got your "ADD BROWN! ADD BLOOM! OKAY DONE!" joke. :sad.gif:
And coolpilot, thanks! :smile.gif:
Even though I really don't think it's as good as most do. Lighting in the lower right is totally bad, and it's a lot dirtier and tattered than it should be in comparison to the other games.
So, I went through the sig-wall and recorded all of the sigs as of right now (probably won't be many more).
We got ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY-SEVEN signatures. (Some were illegible or single characters, so we have about 150 actual legible signatures.) A few repeated themselves a few times. (Navineous, Toudou, Super.) Repeats weren't counted or listed.
RealG has already told you the competition results, and I might put those into the OP some time tomorrow. You can also expect to see some links to the level files tomorrow as well.
As for my feedback on the whole event: I look forward to perhaps organizing this again next year, since that part was really fun (although a bit exhausting... I went for about 35 hours without sleep getting everything together before taking a nice long nap before the actual competitions started), but we'll definitely need someone else to actually deal with the event, conducting the competitions and all that. I just couldn't handle all the people who failed to read the brightly colored instructions and who apparently had absolutely zero common sense.
The event is NOT over. The competitions start in about two hours. (At 18:00 in GMT, not adjusted for daylight savings, so if you're GMT+0 normally, then for daylight savings, you're GMT+1 right now, which means that the games will start at 19:00 for you.)
Probably a bit late to ask here, but I would like to join the spleef and race competitions.
...I believe I already stated what times I would be available, in-server.
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One of the screenshots re-upped here: http://i.imgur.com/sF9EK.png
Minecraft community's had at least a passing interest in Sauerbraten(/Cube 2 Engine) almost since Minecraft had a community.
Converting levels was something I considered, but wasn't interested enough to do, so this is pretty awesome stuff. (I also wanted to try making some Sauer player models imitating the Minecraft mobs, but bleh.)
0
Do you people even know what a strip mine is? I get the feeling you're all just tossing the term around without any regard for what it actually means because you think it sounds cool or something.
0
Rant up there ^^^ feedback down here now VVV
For some reason the file browser shows hidden files, so ~/ is filled with config directories and such. Not that big a deal, but it's a bit awkward. (Linux Mint)
And I think it would be a lot better if, instead of buttons bringing up new windows, the application just had each feature in a tab at the top of the interface.
0
Avoiding people like you is the reason this thread was made. If you want to contribute to the discussion, contribute. Don't just say everyone who disagrees with you is a baby and be done with it.
0
This is an attitude that seems to be very mainstream in 'competitive' games; skilled people get to do whatever they want, and less skilled people have to let them and deal with it, or go somewhere else. The effect is that the less skilled players aren't allowed to have fun, and that really defeats the idea of gaming. I don't think everyone (because you seem to think that anyone who doesn't want SMP to be a free-for-all murderfest should just go play Creative because they're little babies) wants to play a super-competitive Minecraft. They want to have FUN with other people, defending a little base from blocky monsters, not getting **** on by people like you who think that if you're having fun and they weren't able to stop you (because they don't want to play the game the way you want to), they don't deserve to be playing anyway.
0
So this is that thread. The idea here is to discuss the implications of, possibility of, solutions to, and whatever else regarding the act of griefing in Survival Multiplayer.
To get the discussion started, my post in a recently deleted thread conveniently copy-pasted:
I believe that griefing is entirely possible in Survival. Yes, it's "Survival" which means it's about surviving, but this is also a game which, ideally, involves all parties enjoying themselves. Survival multiplayer being... multiplayer, I think that there is an implicit duty on everyone's shoulders to try to maintain a sense of enjoyment, no matter what is actually happening in the game. The same way in an FPS game, extremely skilled players playing against new players and constantly shoving "LOL NOOB U SUK GO DIE LOLOL" is frowned upon. They're showing a blatant disregard for a *universal* enjoyment of the game, and end up looking like a jerk. If someone in Survival Multiplayer is just emerging from their mine with their first bit of diamond, and they're happy and having fun because they're excited to see what kind of things they can do with their three diamond blocks, being randomly slaughtered by some faceless goon who jumped out from behind a tree will ruin their fun. The bandit has failed to understand the fact that the idea of the game is for everyone to enjoy themselves, and has become, if not a griefer, at least a huge jackass.
Note that I'm by no means condemning the act of banditry in Survival Multiplayer, I'm simply suggesting that anyone who intends to engage in it should make sure to do it in such a way that, instead of increasing gameplay for them and decreasing gameplay for others, increases gameplay for both parties. This really wouldn't be as hard as some people here might think, considering the consensus that dickery is totally okay in Survival Multiplayer. Really, all a potential bandit would have to do is consider the amount of involvement his victim has in the attack. If a bandit slashes them twice with a diamond sword before their victim has a chance to react, the victim has had effectively zero involvement, and the result is that the experience for the victim wasn't so much 'gameplay' as it was a random, unpreventable death. Consider the idea that, within the game's economy, different resources introduce different gameplay, be it by increasing a player's 'worth' (that is, making them a more high-profile target for thieves) or by making them an economic hub to serve as a medium between multiple other parties for trading or other things. What a player expects to happen when they procure new resources (like diamond, using the above example), is for the number of things they become involved in to increase. It is necessary for that to happen in order for the game to remain enjoyable for the player. Taking the above example, in which a bandit simply slaughters a player from behind without allowing them a chance to actually react (and thus become an actual part of the event), the player's expected increase in gameplay options doesn't occur; they just die and have to start over.
So what a bandit needs to do to make an actual attack fun for both the bandit and the victim is to, essentially, roleplay a chivalrous swashbuckling highwayman, such can be found in most fiction regarding bandits nowadays) and not a heartless murderer. I'm not saying that Survival Multiplayer should be like a big game of Dungeons and Dragons, I'm just saying that in order for the game to remain fun for everyone, it's necessary for players to occasionally 'get into it' instead of playing like Minecraft is a stat-crunching gear-grinding robotfest. A bandit should approach from the front, say something to his victim, let the victim reply first, perhaps even consider what they say (hell, maybe form a bandit duo!), and when an actual fight happens, play it like a fantasy action movie. Don't just take out a bow and shove a deluge of arrows down the throat of their helpless, cornered enemies. Maybe even let the victim hand over their stuff and leave with their life instead of coldly destroying them to get their loot. All of these things make playing a bandit fun (unless the player thinks it's fun to ruin other people's fun, in which case they are most certainly a griefer), and increase amount of gameplay potential for the victim, by changing the way the game world (which in this case just happens to include other real-life people) reacts to their character.
Basically, what I'm saying is that people apparently are overlooking the fact that the idea of Minecraft is for everyone to have fun, and assuming that if everyone is killing each other and stealing other people's stuff, it must be totally okay to make the game less fun for everyone else because they can't or won't try to come up with a way to make the overall experience enjoyable no matter what side you're on; criminal or victim.
---
So what does everyone here think? Is griefing possible? Is stealing/killing without remorse okay in Survival Multiplayer? What sorts of things do you think servers will do to combat it?
Discussion goes down there VVVV
1
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Indeed.
So also, if you want Notch to add dragons, but don't think he will, the best thing to do is flood his inbox with emails whose subject line is "Dragons?" or "Do you plan on adding dragons?" or "PLZ AD DARGONZZZZ"
0
When Notch said that "I want forum posts asking 'how do i kill dragon' with replies reading 'lol'" bit, he was saying it to emphasize that he wanted the dragons (when he added them) to be insanely difficult to kill, such that most people would probably just think they were invincible.
Notch has told us on the IRC a few times that his whole "NO DRAGONS EVAAAAR" thing is a joke.
0
Wii
XBox 360
PS3
And Lmaoboat, so sad, but I don't think anyone got your "ADD BROWN! ADD BLOOM! OKAY DONE!" joke. :sad.gif:
And coolpilot, thanks! :smile.gif:
Even though I really don't think it's as good as most do. Lighting in the lower right is totally bad, and it's a lot dirtier and tattered than it should be in comparison to the other games.
And now for the shoops:
Wii Boxart photo
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So I'm just gonna link to it here.
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Yup! I missed it. Added it just now.
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We got ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY-SEVEN signatures. (Some were illegible or single characters, so we have about 150 actual legible signatures.) A few repeated themselves a few times. (Navineous, Toudou, Super.) Repeats weren't counted or listed.
A full list:
RealG has already told you the competition results, and I might put those into the OP some time tomorrow. You can also expect to see some links to the level files tomorrow as well.
As for my feedback on the whole event: I look forward to perhaps organizing this again next year, since that part was really fun (although a bit exhausting... I went for about 35 hours without sleep getting everything together before taking a nice long nap before the actual competitions started), but we'll definitely need someone else to actually deal with the event, conducting the competitions and all that. I just couldn't handle all the people who failed to read the brightly colored instructions and who apparently had absolutely zero common sense.
0
The event is NOT over. The competitions start in about two hours. (At 18:00 in GMT, not adjusted for daylight savings, so if you're GMT+0 normally, then for daylight savings, you're GMT+1 right now, which means that the games will start at 19:00 for you.)
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Not too late at all.