Given exclusively your previous post, I fail to understand why you care enough to even discuss the topic at such length.
The existing flawed mechanics will either eventually be fixed (Lava + wood) or may never see a fix (Water flow + odd blocks) due to their complexity. Either way, when the game finally exits Beta and is a complete package, there will undoubtedly be some form of grinder available as a result of the game's mechanics. May not be lava blade, or cactus, or drowning. They're here to stay in one form or another.
And finally, balance is irrelevant in a single-player sandbox game. In SMP the issue is exclusive to server admins policing their worlds, and players finding worlds with like-minded players to maximize their enjoyment. With the extraordinary diversity in gameplay styles this game allows, this is particularly critical.
I really have nothing more to add. Maybe later. I dunno.
Sandbox does not mean that you're not exploiting game mechanics when you are.
You have yet to explain how "exploiting" (meaning "to use to your best ability") game mechanics is detrimental. That's what you're ****ing supposed to do.
"For the record, I voted for nerfed/balanced". So instead of realizing that those aren't even the poll options anymore, you misquote me. The poll was unfairly biased and the only option for me to choose was nerf/balance. I want balanced, not nerfed. Now that the poll is less biased, I chose Overpowered.
So next time don't pick and choose what you want to quote me on when balanced is right next to nerfed, and you're talking out of context.
I had no idea the poll options had changed. Regardless, "nerfed/balanced" means the same thing as "overpowered," as far as the poll's intent is concerned. If you think grinders need to be balanced, you clearly believe them to be overpowered.
Now, let's ignore that item, and take a look at your personal attack laced into your deflection. How the hell could I "misquote" you when I used Ctrl+C and Ctrl+F? You accuse me of "quoting you out of centext" when the context is self evident. Explain what "context" is absent in the quotes. I showed clear examples of you making contradictory statements.
The only thing detrimental about my suggestions was mobs not dropping items on environmental deaths. The other suggestions have no chance of negatively impacting the game other than making it harder or stopping people from designing mob traps the way they're designed now.
No mob drops from environmental deaths is exclusive to the idea of killing grinders.
Changing water flow mechanics to not push mobs and/or items (As was suggested before and could be the only thing you mean when including it as a suggestion) is exclusive to the idea of killing grinders, and would negatively impact other aspects of the game.
The only suggestion on the list that makes any sense whatsoever outside of attempts to kill mob farms is lava burning signs/ladders. That's just a material consistency issue.
If Notch could fix water flow in and around the odd blocks, that too would have an effect on the functioning of grinders but wouldn't outright kill the concept and again, is an issue of material consistency. Unfortunately from the way it sounded he hasn't put much effort into trying to fix that, or it would be extraordinarily difficult.
So, you misinterpret what I say, and decide to misquote me to prove your point.
Absolutely not. And you didn't even respond to the core of my post, which is that you're talking out both sides of your mouth. You keep saying "oh I'm ok with them!" but simultaneously suggest they need to be "rebalanced" (Synonymous for "nerfed," because you mean "downgraded") and offer up suggestions exclusively contrived for said "rebalancing."
Really, the only mechanical issues relevant to grinders that need to be addressed are wooden items burning and water flow over oddly shaped blocks. That's it. Grinders themselves, as has been pointed out repeatedly and, as usual with what you can't argue against, summarily dismissed as "irrelevant," are not in any way out of balance. They provide a steady stream of items that you're going to have a surplus of anyway no matter how you play. The only exception is sulfur, which is useless in small quantities, and cannot be obtained in mass quantities through any other means whatsoever.
So, in conclusion:
1. Explain the "context" I quoted you out of.
2. Explain how you can argue that grinders are unbalanced when they provide exactly one unique drop that is only useful in large quantities, and all other drops are likely to get tossed into the incinerator.
3. Explain how you can argue that grinders are unbalanced, while simultaneously claiming that they're just fine and dandy.
I don't have a reason to offer a reasonable rebuttal to those points, as that's not the point of this discussion.
Um...that is exactly the point of this discussion - whether mob farms are "unbalanced" or "exploitive," and the nature of the game itself as a sandbox all but negates these concepts to begin with. The fact that you constantly refuse to respond to what you clearly cannot dissect logically or morally is all the proof necessary to determine that you don't have an argument to speak of.
I'm thankful that you understand where I'm coming from, as everyone else just misinterprets what I say.
Here's a basic fact of interpersonal communication: It is your responsibility to ensure your message is conveyed clearly.
In one message you say you're fine with them and they can stay:
I don't want them gone. In fact, I'm perfectly fine if they stay in the game.
while in another you say they're clearly overpowered and should be nerfed:
A mob farm is a structure built for the sole purpose of farming mob drops. Once set up, they yield infinitely many items at an astounding rate, depending on the size. Most mob traps advertised yield more than 5000 items per hour.
By the way, OP, the poll is still biased.
For the record, I voted for nerf/balanced.
You support measures suggested for the sole purpose of nerfing mob farms:
-Mobs drop nothing when killed by the environment.
-Spawning algorithms that decrease spawn rate when an absurd amount of them die in a given area.
-Mobs that can destroy blocks.
-Changes to liquid physics.
...despite their potential detrimental consequences regarding core game mechanics. And then you whine when people argue with your position. No one is "misinterpreting" what you say, you just suck at saying what you mean in a clear and concise manner.
But what amount of time did you put into getting that half stack of arrows? That's the point.
Yes, that is your point. Your point also happens to be negated by my point. Explain how there's an absent balance if, every time I go out adventuring, I return with a surplus of arrows? Explain how my chest of arrows collecting dust (obtained from a mob farm) imbalances my other chest of arrows collecting dust (obtained from adventuring).
You're right, you can't get TNT easily in large quantities. Not without a mob farm.
Exactly. And you would neuter a critical tool - the only tool - for collecting sulfur in any meaningful quantity, at the expense of a large portion of the player base. Because you find it distasteful, or something.
Are you going to get that modest amount of good stuff in the same time by not exploiting a few game mechanics?
I'm not going to get any of those dropped items, personally, since I only play on peaceful unless the grinder's in operation. But if I were inclined to play with mobs on again at some point, I still wouldn't get a meaningful supply of sulfur, and everything else drops with greater frequency than it's needed anyway. So again, the overall surplus of non-sulfur materials negates the excessive flow of said materials from grinders. And sulfur is frankly useless in small quantities, so the grinder is actually a necessity for this material.
That just means that there needs to be a better way to get those items so players don't have to resort to mob farms in their current form.
I certainly don't disagree with this. If I could gather sulfur in meaningful quantity without building a grinder, you'd better believe I would. Building one of those things is pretty damn time consuming, especially because I build mine underground (I hate the eyesore aspect of above-ground grinders).
Bad? Not bad, never said bad. I really wish people would stop putting that word in my mouth.
Maybe if you expressed less baseless opposition to this particular emergent construct, people wouldn't misunderstand your opinion. Constantly calling them "exploitive" in a negative context, and "unbalanced," and just in general suggesting they be "fixed" is more than enough for a reasonable individual to infer that you feel grinders are a negative element in MineCraft. Can you guess a synonym for "negative?"
Right. "I don't live in Africa."
"Then you have absolutely no legitimate reason to care about the poor starving children there. None whatsoever."
You do realize you're comparing a humanitarian nightmare to people playing a ****ing video game, right? And that it's perfectly appropriate for someone to care about the former, but not the latter? Jesus Christ, that I should need to explain the difference to you actually sickens me enough that I'm not going to bother.
I'll be back later to read the irrelevant arguments of "It's my game I'll play it how I want" and "don't like it don't use it."
And we'll be back to read your "my way is the right way to play in the sandbox!" responses. Of course, you could try and offer up a rebuttal to the "it's my sandbox" and "if you don't like them, don't build them" lines of reasoning. They are, after all, legitimate points that you seem to summarily dismiss. Especially in contrast to your "I don't like them so I want them fixed, despite all the people who enjoy their use and despite any lack of indication that Notch gives a ****" arguments.
You're effectively arguing for "one way." Play MC the way you enjoy it, absent mob grinders. Those of us who use them are effectively arguing for "choice." We like them, you don't. The solution is simple: We build them, you don't. But somehow, in your mind, that simply doesn't work. You're like the people who argue that gay marriage somehow, magically and inexplicably, affects hetero marriage. It's deluded, it's invasive, and it's totalitarian.
I've explained over and over in that thread that mob farms are imbalanced not just because you can get so many items per hour, but because that figure is ridiculous compared to fighting monsters the normal way. You're not going to come close to even the slowest of mob grinders if you're hunting mobs yourself.
And like I said, just from "playing the game normal" you're going to wind up with a surplus of arrows anyway. At the point where you're collecting more than you're using of an item, "balance" is a non-issue. If every time I leave my base I come back with half a stack of arrows more than I used, the 1k arrows sitting in a chest collected from a grinder may as well not exist.
As for with TNT, it's really only useful in large quantities for large projects (Else you're just better off mining/digging out the area), and it simply cannot be acquired in large quantities through any other existing game mechanic.
Quote from trunksbomb »
Whether you get the best items in the game or just a bunch of flowers from a mob trap doesn't matter- the rate at which you are receiving these items and the effort you put in is completely out of line with the rest of the game.
So you feel the same way about cactus farms as you do about mob farms? Further, yes, the items received do matter. If mobs dropped ores, for example, even if diamond drops were extremely rare, that would present a reasonable argument for a balance issue.
If you're seriously going to argue that an enormous flow of useless items and a modest amount of one or two items that you may use (depending on your playstyle) is a game-breaking issue, then you may want to reconsider the parameters you use for picking your battles. Just saying.
Again, how is being able to landscape a large area unbalanced? And how is clever use of game mechanics for player gain somehow a bad thing? Especially in a sandbox game?
Quote from trunksbomb »
I don't play SMP really.
Then you have absolutely no legitimate reason to care about mob grinders. None whatsoever.
The fact is that it's an exploit of game mechanics and it is entirely imbalanced. Everyone else is going out of their way to rethink the same argument in support of mob grinders.
You have yet to explain, after 40+ pages in the other thread, how exactly there's a "balance" issue. Exploit of game mechanics? Hell yes. That's what you do in a game - exploit its mechanics for your own gain. Unbalanced? Not even remotely.
For the record, the "ZOMG 10k/hour mob traps!!" are extraordinarily few and far between. These are curiosities of the game's mechanics created by people who want to push the envelope for the sole purpose of pushing the envelope, more akin to the calculators and computers than anything genuinely useful. No one is making these 10k item/hour grinders on your SMP server, and if they are (And you don't want them to) then you're a shitty admin because no one could miss that eyesore and no one is digging one of those out underground. Further, no one is actually using all those drops, because no one could. All your hyperbole about the "imbalance" of 10k item/hour grinders on your SMP servers is utter rubbish, because they either don't exist on your server, or if they do you fail as an admin.
As those of us who actually use the things constantly point out (And the point is constantly ignored) - their spoils aren't all that spectacular. There are two useful mob drops. Two.
1. Sulfur is used to make TNT. TNT is pretty exclusively a toy, or a landscaping tool. Availability of TNT isn't breaking anything. Further, while grinders may make sulfur a limitless and effortless resource, you still need sand to manufacture it into TNT. This is additionally time-consuming, and uses a resource that can only be renewed by expanding your map, and uses 4/5 the amount of Sulfur. I've worked with TNT excessively, landscaping and whatnot. Even with a grinder, it requires effort to gather and utilize.
2. Arrows are used to kill ****. This doesn't really matter to me because I've been playing on peaceful since about 2 weeks into MC, but even so, what exactly does it matter? When I switched it to peaceful, I'd already stockpiled 3 stacks of arrows just from random kills in caves and topside. These things aren't a challenge to collect in the first place, so I'm loathe to even refer to them as a "useful" mob drop.
Everything else is superfluous, useless, or completely unnecessary.
Bone meal for wheat and tree farms? As if wheat didn't already grow fast enough and trees weren't literally everywhere. Bonemeal for dyes? Cosmetic, but I suppose that's actually a little more useful than arrows, now that I think about it...
Feathers? Derp.
String? We don't need more than enough string to make a bow and a fishing pole. That's, what? 6 string? Useless beyond that, and even that much is optional.
So please, please can someone explain how being able to landscape faster is unbalancing? Because mass TNT collection really is the only useful function of grinders, unless you're inclined to build a shooting range or need to instantly grow a few hundred saplings.
So every single world I've generated for some time now (Since Beta maybe?) has had the issue with chunks "mirroring" the appropriate placement of sand and grass where the two meet at the edges of biomes. This doesn't seem to apply to coastlines, just deserts where they meet grass. The issue is most obvious when you run the world through a map generator or view chunks from a great height.
I find this unbearably hideous, but after trying to generate a map absent this feature for a couple weeks, literally generating and deleting dozens if not hundreds of worlds, I simply have yet to spawn a map with clean edges along its deserts. I have a map from Alpha, which has a sizable desert region and its edges are perfectly natural.
Is there a mod to fix this perhaps? I checked the stickied threads and perused the forums, but couldn't find anything so apologies if this is out there in another thread.
No offense to your staircase, Trevorblack79, it's amazing but only usable as a primary feature in a home.
None taken, you're absolutely correct. The structure housing that staircase is a glass tower above ground, extending up to layer 100-110 (Somewhere in there, don't recall exactly) and retaining a 42-block internal diameter from the top to the bottom of the pit (made it to layer 36 iirc). There are actually two identical staircases, spiraling opposite each other from top to bottom. From the ground-level entrances, there are floating half-step walkways leading to the center where they meet inside a ~40 block tall hollow obsidian "crystal" structure. The whole thing is designed to be massive for the sake of being massive. If I had kept up on that save file I would have eventually used the pit for entrance to a huge branch mine at diamond layers, but otherwise the thing's functionally useless.
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Given exclusively your previous post, I fail to understand why you care enough to even discuss the topic at such length.
The existing flawed mechanics will either eventually be fixed (Lava + wood) or may never see a fix (Water flow + odd blocks) due to their complexity. Either way, when the game finally exits Beta and is a complete package, there will undoubtedly be some form of grinder available as a result of the game's mechanics. May not be lava blade, or cactus, or drowning. They're here to stay in one form or another.
And finally, balance is irrelevant in a single-player sandbox game. In SMP the issue is exclusive to server admins policing their worlds, and players finding worlds with like-minded players to maximize their enjoyment. With the extraordinary diversity in gameplay styles this game allows, this is particularly critical.
I really have nothing more to add. Maybe later. I dunno.
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You have yet to explain how "exploiting" (meaning "to use to your best ability") game mechanics is detrimental. That's what you're ****ing supposed to do.
I had no idea the poll options had changed. Regardless, "nerfed/balanced" means the same thing as "overpowered," as far as the poll's intent is concerned. If you think grinders need to be balanced, you clearly believe them to be overpowered.
Now, let's ignore that item, and take a look at your personal attack laced into your deflection. How the hell could I "misquote" you when I used Ctrl+C and Ctrl+F? You accuse me of "quoting you out of centext" when the context is self evident. Explain what "context" is absent in the quotes. I showed clear examples of you making contradictory statements.
No mob drops from environmental deaths is exclusive to the idea of killing grinders.
Changing water flow mechanics to not push mobs and/or items (As was suggested before and could be the only thing you mean when including it as a suggestion) is exclusive to the idea of killing grinders, and would negatively impact other aspects of the game.
The only suggestion on the list that makes any sense whatsoever outside of attempts to kill mob farms is lava burning signs/ladders. That's just a material consistency issue.
If Notch could fix water flow in and around the odd blocks, that too would have an effect on the functioning of grinders but wouldn't outright kill the concept and again, is an issue of material consistency. Unfortunately from the way it sounded he hasn't put much effort into trying to fix that, or it would be extraordinarily difficult.
Absolutely not. And you didn't even respond to the core of my post, which is that you're talking out both sides of your mouth. You keep saying "oh I'm ok with them!" but simultaneously suggest they need to be "rebalanced" (Synonymous for "nerfed," because you mean "downgraded") and offer up suggestions exclusively contrived for said "rebalancing."
Really, the only mechanical issues relevant to grinders that need to be addressed are wooden items burning and water flow over oddly shaped blocks. That's it. Grinders themselves, as has been pointed out repeatedly and, as usual with what you can't argue against, summarily dismissed as "irrelevant," are not in any way out of balance. They provide a steady stream of items that you're going to have a surplus of anyway no matter how you play. The only exception is sulfur, which is useless in small quantities, and cannot be obtained in mass quantities through any other means whatsoever.
So, in conclusion:
1. Explain the "context" I quoted you out of.
2. Explain how you can argue that grinders are unbalanced when they provide exactly one unique drop that is only useful in large quantities, and all other drops are likely to get tossed into the incinerator.
3. Explain how you can argue that grinders are unbalanced, while simultaneously claiming that they're just fine and dandy.
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Um...that is exactly the point of this discussion - whether mob farms are "unbalanced" or "exploitive," and the nature of the game itself as a sandbox all but negates these concepts to begin with. The fact that you constantly refuse to respond to what you clearly cannot dissect logically or morally is all the proof necessary to determine that you don't have an argument to speak of.
Here's a basic fact of interpersonal communication: It is your responsibility to ensure your message is conveyed clearly.
In one message you say you're fine with them and they can stay:
while in another you say they're clearly overpowered and should be nerfed:
You support measures suggested for the sole purpose of nerfing mob farms:
...despite their potential detrimental consequences regarding core game mechanics. And then you whine when people argue with your position. No one is "misinterpreting" what you say, you just suck at saying what you mean in a clear and concise manner.
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Yes, that is your point. Your point also happens to be negated by my point. Explain how there's an absent balance if, every time I go out adventuring, I return with a surplus of arrows? Explain how my chest of arrows collecting dust (obtained from a mob farm) imbalances my other chest of arrows collecting dust (obtained from adventuring).
Exactly. And you would neuter a critical tool - the only tool - for collecting sulfur in any meaningful quantity, at the expense of a large portion of the player base. Because you find it distasteful, or something.
I'm not going to get any of those dropped items, personally, since I only play on peaceful unless the grinder's in operation. But if I were inclined to play with mobs on again at some point, I still wouldn't get a meaningful supply of sulfur, and everything else drops with greater frequency than it's needed anyway. So again, the overall surplus of non-sulfur materials negates the excessive flow of said materials from grinders. And sulfur is frankly useless in small quantities, so the grinder is actually a necessity for this material.
I certainly don't disagree with this. If I could gather sulfur in meaningful quantity without building a grinder, you'd better believe I would. Building one of those things is pretty damn time consuming, especially because I build mine underground (I hate the eyesore aspect of above-ground grinders).
Maybe if you expressed less baseless opposition to this particular emergent construct, people wouldn't misunderstand your opinion. Constantly calling them "exploitive" in a negative context, and "unbalanced," and just in general suggesting they be "fixed" is more than enough for a reasonable individual to infer that you feel grinders are a negative element in MineCraft. Can you guess a synonym for "negative?"
You do realize you're comparing a humanitarian nightmare to people playing a ****ing video game, right? And that it's perfectly appropriate for someone to care about the former, but not the latter? Jesus Christ, that I should need to explain the difference to you actually sickens me enough that I'm not going to bother.
And we'll be back to read your "my way is the right way to play in the sandbox!" responses. Of course, you could try and offer up a rebuttal to the "it's my sandbox" and "if you don't like them, don't build them" lines of reasoning. They are, after all, legitimate points that you seem to summarily dismiss. Especially in contrast to your "I don't like them so I want them fixed, despite all the people who enjoy their use and despite any lack of indication that Notch gives a ****" arguments.
You're effectively arguing for "one way." Play MC the way you enjoy it, absent mob grinders. Those of us who use them are effectively arguing for "choice." We like them, you don't. The solution is simple: We build them, you don't. But somehow, in your mind, that simply doesn't work. You're like the people who argue that gay marriage somehow, magically and inexplicably, affects hetero marriage. It's deluded, it's invasive, and it's totalitarian.
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And like I said, just from "playing the game normal" you're going to wind up with a surplus of arrows anyway. At the point where you're collecting more than you're using of an item, "balance" is a non-issue. If every time I leave my base I come back with half a stack of arrows more than I used, the 1k arrows sitting in a chest collected from a grinder may as well not exist.
As for with TNT, it's really only useful in large quantities for large projects (Else you're just better off mining/digging out the area), and it simply cannot be acquired in large quantities through any other existing game mechanic.
So you feel the same way about cactus farms as you do about mob farms? Further, yes, the items received do matter. If mobs dropped ores, for example, even if diamond drops were extremely rare, that would present a reasonable argument for a balance issue.
If you're seriously going to argue that an enormous flow of useless items and a modest amount of one or two items that you may use (depending on your playstyle) is a game-breaking issue, then you may want to reconsider the parameters you use for picking your battles. Just saying.
Again, how is being able to landscape a large area unbalanced? And how is clever use of game mechanics for player gain somehow a bad thing? Especially in a sandbox game?
Then you have absolutely no legitimate reason to care about mob grinders. None whatsoever.
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You have yet to explain, after 40+ pages in the other thread, how exactly there's a "balance" issue. Exploit of game mechanics? Hell yes. That's what you do in a game - exploit its mechanics for your own gain. Unbalanced? Not even remotely.
For the record, the "ZOMG 10k/hour mob traps!!" are extraordinarily few and far between. These are curiosities of the game's mechanics created by people who want to push the envelope for the sole purpose of pushing the envelope, more akin to the calculators and computers than anything genuinely useful. No one is making these 10k item/hour grinders on your SMP server, and if they are (And you don't want them to) then you're a shitty admin because no one could miss that eyesore and no one is digging one of those out underground. Further, no one is actually using all those drops, because no one could. All your hyperbole about the "imbalance" of 10k item/hour grinders on your SMP servers is utter rubbish, because they either don't exist on your server, or if they do you fail as an admin.
As those of us who actually use the things constantly point out (And the point is constantly ignored) - their spoils aren't all that spectacular. There are two useful mob drops. Two.
1. Sulfur is used to make TNT. TNT is pretty exclusively a toy, or a landscaping tool. Availability of TNT isn't breaking anything. Further, while grinders may make sulfur a limitless and effortless resource, you still need sand to manufacture it into TNT. This is additionally time-consuming, and uses a resource that can only be renewed by expanding your map, and uses 4/5 the amount of Sulfur. I've worked with TNT excessively, landscaping and whatnot. Even with a grinder, it requires effort to gather and utilize.
2. Arrows are used to kill ****. This doesn't really matter to me because I've been playing on peaceful since about 2 weeks into MC, but even so, what exactly does it matter? When I switched it to peaceful, I'd already stockpiled 3 stacks of arrows just from random kills in caves and topside. These things aren't a challenge to collect in the first place, so I'm loathe to even refer to them as a "useful" mob drop.
Everything else is superfluous, useless, or completely unnecessary.
Bone meal for wheat and tree farms? As if wheat didn't already grow fast enough and trees weren't literally everywhere. Bonemeal for dyes? Cosmetic, but I suppose that's actually a little more useful than arrows, now that I think about it...
Feathers? Derp.
String? We don't need more than enough string to make a bow and a fishing pole. That's, what? 6 string? Useless beyond that, and even that much is optional.
So please, please can someone explain how being able to landscape faster is unbalancing? Because mass TNT collection really is the only useful function of grinders, unless you're inclined to build a shooting range or need to instantly grow a few hundred saplings.
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I find this unbearably hideous, but after trying to generate a map absent this feature for a couple weeks, literally generating and deleting dozens if not hundreds of worlds, I simply have yet to spawn a map with clean edges along its deserts. I have a map from Alpha, which has a sizable desert region and its edges are perfectly natural.
Is there a mod to fix this perhaps? I checked the stickied threads and perused the forums, but couldn't find anything so apologies if this is out there in another thread.
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http://s1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff424/CaptainWinFace/
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None taken, you're absolutely correct. The structure housing that staircase is a glass tower above ground, extending up to layer 100-110 (Somewhere in there, don't recall exactly) and retaining a 42-block internal diameter from the top to the bottom of the pit (made it to layer 36 iirc). There are actually two identical staircases, spiraling opposite each other from top to bottom. From the ground-level entrances, there are floating half-step walkways leading to the center where they meet inside a ~40 block tall hollow obsidian "crystal" structure. The whole thing is designed to be massive for the sake of being massive. If I had kept up on that save file I would have eventually used the pit for entrance to a huge branch mine at diamond layers, but otherwise the thing's functionally useless.