The true problem is that each chunk isn't tagged with the world generator type when it is generated, or the seed for that matter (in case of corruption). So there is no way to know why a chunk needs blending, and it's not limited to the surface either, which is what everyone seems to be focusing on. Caves would need proper blending as well, and structures... the list goes on. This isn't as trivial a task as it may sound.
It's not as complicated as many are making this out to be. A map converter tool could know what chunks to blend by simply feathering all frontier borders that neighbor empty chunks. It wouldn't have to tag any existing chunks, just extend all current frontiers and blend the land with the new terrain.
You bring up a point with caves, and one I've considered, but I don't accept it as a reason to have to live with an ugly surface. After all, caves merging correctly is an issue whether the surface cliffs get fixed or not. You've just argued that because they can't fix ALL problems, then they should fix NONE. Some improvement is better than none, right? I don't see too many complaints about caves not merging here anyway so I suspect it's not an issue for most players. It's an aesthetic issue at it's core, and caves don't serve much of an aesthetic purpose at all.
I'll note once again, that this argument of "chunks don't record X data" was the exact same argument used to quell complaints about biome changes on updates. And yet with the new version, chunks DO record and retain biome data. So that argument wouldn't fly anyway. It's something that could be added. Although I suspect there are other, perhaps simpler ways to solve the problem.
The type of "checking" you think is going on is not actually going on at all. The game just generates chunks that don't exist, when they are needed. And if new ones border old ones, those vast differences in terrain generation are readily apparent.
The idea of it then going further and continually checking for major differences, and attempting to smooth them out.. You are asking for mini terrain generation (to fill the gap) in a system that is all one large world generation.. Look I just don't know how else to say it.. it's just dumb. It can't work.
The terrain generation code is already complex, and it already knows how to "blend" mountain with flatland or hill with river. This blending is not all that dissimilar to what I'm asking for, and it's not much more complex than what is already being performed by the code through normal terrain generation. You act as if the code is completely random with no ability to even know how or where to generate hills or valleys. If that were the case, then we would end up with ugly worlds with weird unnatural shaped cliffs and structures through normal terrain generation.
A one time process could perform this task and it'd never have to be done again until the next terrain gen update. No continual "checking" or anything. Heck, make it an optional process for all I care.
You say it's been explain before why this is impossible but I've yet to see Mojang answer this question directly. If you can show me where they've explained why this can't or won't be implemented then I might accept that answer.
I think you're not giving nearly enough to credit to Mojang's ability to code a decent solution to this.
The real alternative is YOU fix the boundary. A machine is not able to look at the land and decide the best flow to fix the problem. With a minimal amount of time you can alter it to look however you want. And even if the system made this change for you, who is to say that YOU would like the look (or if you did like it, who is to say that someone else would like it)....
This is true, and a risk with anything that changes existing features. But I'd argue that nearly any alternative would be an improvement over the current system, whether perfect or not.
And yes, fixing this would necessarily make the terrain generation code more complex but I believe it could be handled in a way that wouldn't radically change the actual terrain generation code. For example, a map converter or importer function could be added, allowing a one time process of updating an existing map for the next version, which would keep the terrain generation code itself separate and unpolluted.
Ofcourse these are just my ideas on how it might could be rectified. I have full confidence that Mojang is competent enough to figure out a decent way of working out this issue.
Glad people know that you can do this now, But once again people are complaining about sheer clifs.
If you keep complaining about the sheer clifs, jens will have no choice but to remove new blomies from old worlds again.
And you don't want that again do you?
No I don't want them to do that. That would just be skirting the actual problem. I'd rather them actually FIX the problem.
We complain about this because it's a legitimate complaint. Converting from one terrain generation version to the next SHOULD account for this imo. Terrain already generates randomly based on some parameters. Adding in parameters to extend unexplored terrain in current maps out X distance, graduating that newly extended terrain down to sea level, and adding a river/lake inbetween the two terrain types, or something akin to this, really should have been implemented well before full release. I've yet to hear a justified reason why something like this isn't or couldn't be possible.
Having said that, I really appreciate Jeb's efforts in correcting the map issues thus far. Getting the biomes stable between terrain types was huge (and btw, one of those things people were also saying was impossible, and something we should just accept. It was the complaints of people like me who don't accept it as a necessary evil that prompted Mojang to fix it.)
I don't want to sound like I'm jumping on the Notch hate around here either. Notch did a great job on this game and I have much respect for what he started, and what Jeb is continuing. But that shouldn't prevent me and others from voicing opinion and making recommendations on how the game could be improved.
The Admin hasn't been by his computer since last Friday when he went on vacation. Mobs were spawning Saturday to Tuesday when I noticed this issue with the monster spawner. So none of the settings have changed since Friday, but monsters stopped spawning Tuesday. The server has been running for nearly a month and I have never experienced this issue before.
Murduc89 I think I'm having the same problem on my server. I just made this server last week, using my ssp map. The dungeon grinder worked great on ssp, but now it behaves kind of like yours. It seems to work fine for a few minutes, then it stops spawning anything. I've noticed that if I log off or leave the area and return later, it spawns again for a few minutes but then stops again. I've not noticed any correlation to whether others are logged on, but I don't know, it could be.
My friend is reporting the same problem on my server. His grinder isn't based in a dungeon though, it's just a "Big Dark Building GrinderTM" . It appears to work fine for a little while, so he'll go to bed, but when he wakes up there's only a little loot gathered, only a few minutes worth.
Anyone else having similar problems or have any suggestions for a fix?
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It's not as complicated as many are making this out to be. A map converter tool could know what chunks to blend by simply feathering all frontier borders that neighbor empty chunks. It wouldn't have to tag any existing chunks, just extend all current frontiers and blend the land with the new terrain.
You bring up a point with caves, and one I've considered, but I don't accept it as a reason to have to live with an ugly surface. After all, caves merging correctly is an issue whether the surface cliffs get fixed or not. You've just argued that because they can't fix ALL problems, then they should fix NONE. Some improvement is better than none, right? I don't see too many complaints about caves not merging here anyway so I suspect it's not an issue for most players. It's an aesthetic issue at it's core, and caves don't serve much of an aesthetic purpose at all.
I'll note once again, that this argument of "chunks don't record X data" was the exact same argument used to quell complaints about biome changes on updates. And yet with the new version, chunks DO record and retain biome data. So that argument wouldn't fly anyway. It's something that could be added. Although I suspect there are other, perhaps simpler ways to solve the problem.
The terrain generation code is already complex, and it already knows how to "blend" mountain with flatland or hill with river. This blending is not all that dissimilar to what I'm asking for, and it's not much more complex than what is already being performed by the code through normal terrain generation. You act as if the code is completely random with no ability to even know how or where to generate hills or valleys. If that were the case, then we would end up with ugly worlds with weird unnatural shaped cliffs and structures through normal terrain generation.
A one time process could perform this task and it'd never have to be done again until the next terrain gen update. No continual "checking" or anything. Heck, make it an optional process for all I care.
You say it's been explain before why this is impossible but I've yet to see Mojang answer this question directly. If you can show me where they've explained why this can't or won't be implemented then I might accept that answer.
I think you're not giving nearly enough to credit to Mojang's ability to code a decent solution to this.
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This is true, and a risk with anything that changes existing features. But I'd argue that nearly any alternative would be an improvement over the current system, whether perfect or not.
And yes, fixing this would necessarily make the terrain generation code more complex but I believe it could be handled in a way that wouldn't radically change the actual terrain generation code. For example, a map converter or importer function could be added, allowing a one time process of updating an existing map for the next version, which would keep the terrain generation code itself separate and unpolluted.
Ofcourse these are just my ideas on how it might could be rectified. I have full confidence that Mojang is competent enough to figure out a decent way of working out this issue.
1
No I don't want them to do that. That would just be skirting the actual problem. I'd rather them actually FIX the problem.
We complain about this because it's a legitimate complaint. Converting from one terrain generation version to the next SHOULD account for this imo. Terrain already generates randomly based on some parameters. Adding in parameters to extend unexplored terrain in current maps out X distance, graduating that newly extended terrain down to sea level, and adding a river/lake inbetween the two terrain types, or something akin to this, really should have been implemented well before full release. I've yet to hear a justified reason why something like this isn't or couldn't be possible.
Having said that, I really appreciate Jeb's efforts in correcting the map issues thus far. Getting the biomes stable between terrain types was huge (and btw, one of those things people were also saying was impossible, and something we should just accept. It was the complaints of people like me who don't accept it as a necessary evil that prompted Mojang to fix it.)
I don't want to sound like I'm jumping on the Notch hate around here either. Notch did a great job on this game and I have much respect for what he started, and what Jeb is continuing. But that shouldn't prevent me and others from voicing opinion and making recommendations on how the game could be improved.
Much love for Mojang
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My Chandalier
My Chandalier 2
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Murduc89 I think I'm having the same problem on my server. I just made this server last week, using my ssp map. The dungeon grinder worked great on ssp, but now it behaves kind of like yours. It seems to work fine for a few minutes, then it stops spawning anything. I've noticed that if I log off or leave the area and return later, it spawns again for a few minutes but then stops again. I've not noticed any correlation to whether others are logged on, but I don't know, it could be.
My friend is reporting the same problem on my server. His grinder isn't based in a dungeon though, it's just a "Big Dark Building GrinderTM" . It appears to work fine for a little while, so he'll go to bed, but when he wakes up there's only a little loot gathered, only a few minutes worth.
Anyone else having similar problems or have any suggestions for a fix?