For the record, I sort of enjoy the the mines I make myself.
Ores arn't that common, but when I stumble upon a vein of redstone, diamond, or even iron, It's like opening a little present burried very deep underground.
Cave mining is a bit worrisome for me, fo some reason, I can never seem to remember where I just was, and often get lost in caves the game pre-made for me.
I usually find my way back out without digging out, and the walls seemingly lined with iron sometimes are a nice little boon, so I dunno. They're both favorable options for finding minerals to me, though I don't think I'd much appreciate being forced to only use one, or spend hours for the other.
Oh, and I have a point to make about forcing people to explore caves by making smoothstone take forever to mine. How do you dig yourself back out of a cave that you're hopelessly lost in?
Haha, my girlfriend said something to the same effect. She said it was like a scratch lottery ticket, most times you lose, but it feels awesome when she finds something. Which is a feeling I got, too, but quickly diminished, for me personally, after a few days of doing it. Now for me mineshafting is look up, look down, look up, look down, move forward. It has a very repetitive feel to it, while the randomness of caves have such variation that the same feeling doesn't overcome me. I'm generally more alert too, watching for baddies.
Your question, what if you get lost. That's a legitimate concern, though one of my points did address it stating that signs and other landmarks would have a greater effect. You can always place/remove dirt to make signals for yourself. Given time I think the community would come up with creative solutions to that specific problem.
I'm sorry, I might be unable to take anything you write serious anymore. But if it's an consolation, you are now a meme among my roomates. Anything that involves "Going to objective A, Doing Something, and Progressing" is now a console shooter.
Making dinner was a console shooter. Coming back to make this post to you is also a console shooter. Specifically console too, cause it would be silly to think that making dinner is a PC shooter.
Another problem i see with this. I have seen many areas that have little to no caves. My first spawn had only 1 close by cave. I have walked very far, no caves. So I gave up, and mined. I found about, 15 iron BTW in that cave, and maybe a little redstone. No diamond whatsoever. In my mine, I discovered 4 diamonds, 30 iron, and over 300 redstone when i reached the bottom and started a stripmine. Yes, a cave could have been more productive, but in my situation, and using your idea, you were going to force me to mine for hours and days trying to find enough iron to even make a pickaxe. And before you say "Create a new world" you are saying that to the people with beautiful maps with massive overhangs, mountains, and cliffs but no caves who would never want to get rid of their beautiful map. And why should I have to? I should only have to create a new world if I get bored of the world I am in, or want to test out new features.
Also, there are many more caves underground, then there are above. And these are often more productive because they are closer to the diamond layers. I found about 10 diamonds in the cave I found in my second mine. It wouldv'e taken me an extremely long time to find this. It would have led to boredom=me stopping playing.
And i just realized through your post that what i said about choice was stupid. But, it is a valid arguement for a sandbox game like Minecraft, where there are supposed to be a lot of choices. A better example than an MMO, a real sandbox game. It's like saying in Gmod, only these (number) addons you can use, the others are restricted. Your proposal is basically like the start of turning Minecraft into an entirely new genre, saying there is only one way to mine.
Another problem I see with this. Try mining obsidian with a diamond pick. You are proposing it would take twice this long using a stone pick on stone. So think about the pain of making just a few simple furnaces, a set of cheap stone tools which most people prefer to use on stone and iron more than wasting their iron, and worst of all, a simple cobblestone house. Think about this.
OT: Also, I have a bad habit of being angry and unreasonable when i first see something I don't like. But it does help to bring out the other's argument.
Thank you very much for posting in a more constructive fashion, I do appreciate it. I agree with your point, that if stone was made harder to mine in a world that already doesn't compensate for it with a
deep mining experience would be very painful. Perhaps this shouldn't apply to current worlds. I liked the idea of trying it as a one time event, so that we could create a new world and try it out and have it revert to see what it might be like.
I'd like to see those deep underground caves link up with the ones that go to the surface, so that it is quite likely that one could start from the surface and make your way down to diamond levels. I actually find the drilling to the bottom and getting diamond at the moment, can be done in 10-15 minutes of a new world. I feel that a bit undermines the accomplishment.
Ok, your point about the sandbox one is much better. Currently there is 2 ways to mine. I feel if people truly enjoy the mine shafting way, it shouldn't be removed. I'd hate to take something out that people enjoy. I did start with the assumption that most people enjoy caving a lot more and wouldn't miss straight mineshafting too much, which could certainly be wrong. I guess that's for the community to chime in on. I personally like its efficiency and safety, but not its funness.
Your last point ignores my third part of the suggestion, that cobblestone be found near the top of the level with easy access to. Cobblestone would mine as it does now, so that large quantities of stone are available for use. (I realized how important it is)
"Strip mining is like watching paint dry, and shouldn't be encouraged one bit." Entirely based on opinion.
It's true, that is opinion, but so is the enjoyment of it, and these are fine things to comment on and state your own so we can have a concensus.
Perhaps some people enjoy just sitting back, relaxing, and doing some strip mining. By providing choice, you make a lot more people happy.
That's fair. I sincerely dont want to make a suggestion that makes the game less fun for a significant portion of players.
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A few notes: 30 seconds doesn't have to be the exact number, the number I want is just one that discourages players from mineshafting. 30 seconds probably is too long.
Those people ignoring points 2 and 3 need to read them, I don't want to have to respond to "Now there is no stone" or "There isn't enough caves for this to work" when clearly I wrote something for those specific cases.
I tried altering the flow in much the same way, and the thread got swamped with kids going "OMG! THAT WOULD MAKE IT LESS LIKE CREATIVE MODE!". It's a very good idea, but it's pearls before swine.
I think you are right, I believe a suggestion that makes the game more difficult in an area will always be generally looked down upon unless proved in practice with evidence that it might work, while suggestions that add features are more likely to be looked on in a positive light.
Which is okay, but a bit aggravating when people perceive an idea with an automatic bias.
Wow, okay. Even if you guys are vehemently opposed to the idea, to which I have no objection, the lines of reasoning and insulting behavior you use to express yourselves is absolutely shameful.
Regardless, I'll try to address what you guys have said.
Diamonds a necessity? Well, that sure would rape my thoughts about finding diamond, as I am sure it would everyone else's. No longer shall it be "Yes! Diamond!", it will be "Finally, diamond." Also, what do you find good about limiting the player's options to what he can do? If someone wants to go exploring caves, they can. You don't need to make stone pickaxes to take THIRTY SECONDS to mine ONE cobblestone. Might as well just remove all kinds of pickaxes besides diamond. Who the hell would spend ten, or better yet, THIRTY SECONDS for ONE cobblestone block? In fact, please start up a pole asking that question.
I would rather have cars, guns, nukes, ANYTHING but this. Ok, fine. Maybe not instant death whenever you respawn. You get the point, though.
The idea is that caves would lead to diamond, and the rest of the minerals. I wouldn't want minerals to be impossible to get. What I found good about limiting the option, in my mind, was a steering mechanism to promote cave exploration. I've done a fair share of shaft mining and cave exploring, and I sincerely enjoyed cave exploration more. I could be wrong in the assumption, that the choice of mine shafting, is more fun for others than I thought people found it. If this is the case, and people enjoy it, it does make the suggestion indeed pointless. My only goal was to steer away from a less enjoyable form of mineral collection and promote a more fun one, not impose restrictions that anger people. Though I had an idea that any suggestion that would make the game more restricted or harder would be hard for others to digest. (Or apparently reasonably think about).
No. You're being purposely ignorant, and a smartass. Imagine this: Minecraft is no longer "Do things in your order, and build with very few restrictions" and is instead "Go to cave A, progress in game "Go to cave B, progress in game, etc". This is what would happen if a (horrible) change like this were implemented.
No, I'm asking you to clarify with specifics. The only thing I'm ignorant about is how you came to your conclusions after you spewed them. That was your fault, not mine. You've now further clarified it, however, and that is actually helpful.
Have you ever played a console shooter? It's "Go to objective A, do something, progress in game" kinda like my earlier example, isn't it? But console shooters (Rarely) have a decent storyline, or decent gameplay, so it still sells.
I'm sorry, but this is just stupidity. Your description of a "console shooter" is so generic it applies to almost every game ever, or at least any game with a narrative arc, which is something Notch specifically says he wants to implement (in whichever form he chooses to do). So eventually the game will likely follow that description.
If you said, "I like Minecraft because unlike other common games, it doesn't follow the pattern "Go to objective A, do something, progress in game"" than you'd look less stupid. That's not the formula for a console shooter specifically nor will it ever be. "Do something"? Seriously? I mean, I know it'll make you angry at me, but that is just a lol statement.
Diamond is finite. The world is huge. But having to find a constant supply of diamond just to be able to mine at a normal rate is just BS. I personally only mine one island at a time, so it would take forever to get the diamonds for a large scale job.
The proposal was so that instead of mining you would get resources in caves. I don't want in anyway to prevent people from getting resources. The making a giant underground cave thing is valid, but I don't think the "being able to mine for resources" is.
They do prevent things, by increasing the time. A good project, IMO, should take at least an IRL week. With a change like this, it's more like 3 months.
So you mean delay. Not prevention. A prevention is an impossibility. I know this is semantics, and yes I understand what you are trying to say. I'm just hoping you understand the difference. As to your time frames, I don't think cave exploring for resources would cause a 12X speed decrease.
This is so stupid. You say it's like forceing someone to gather stone/wood? Wrong. It is not at all like that. THIS IS A WAY TO PLAY THE GAME THAT YOU CAN CHOOSE TO DO OR NOT, NOT THE ONLY LOGICAL WAY TO PROGRESS. The removal of choice from ANY game no matter what kind is a EXTREMELY bad idea. It's like saying in a MMORPG, you can only be support, or you can only be a tank, or you can only be DPS. Adding choice to a game is better in almost all cases. You obviously haven't played many games besides Minecraft.
EDIT: Also, caves are already more important than mining, because they are more fun and don't use nearly as many tools. You're saying you want to nerf mining, and buff caves? NEVER, NAY, and NO.
EDIT2: Another important aspect of a game: BALANCE. Refer to above edit.
First, regardless of what 4chan says, caps are not cruise control for cool. Nor do they actually make your point louder or more important. Feel free to make your point without them.
Second, you state that my example of the progression of the game is inaccurate and you later tell me that it's more like being forced to choose a class in an MMORPG? That is more accurate how?
Third, you state that removing choices is almost always bad and that adding choices is almost always good. I disagree, game development often removes choices that disrupt flow of games, but you don't see this because games are released after these edits are made. In addition, I think we can all think of a choice we could add to a game (like minecraft) that makes it worse. In fact, its easier to think of things that make it worse than it is to think of ones to make it better, so the logic that additional choices almost always make it better is incorrect. Each choice, added or subtracted, should be judged for its specific merits. If you can't do that, you can't accurately judge an idea.
Fourth, your edits could have credit. Though, if you agree cave exploration is more fun, do you think that game edits that steer towards it are a good thing or a bad thing, or do you just feel that my suggestion is overpowered? If so, can you make any edits to it that would make it more of a possibility to you?
You can't force someone to explore to have fun, then expect them to still play the game.
Don't follow this logic. You are forced to do many things in minecraft as a prerequisite (unless you are in creative mode) to other things. Which is kind of the point. Did you stop playing the game cause you *had* to get a wood pick to get stone, or was this transitional period part of the charm of the game?
This isn't just a console shooter, it's a game where you do what you want.
I hardly think my suggestion makes it analogous to a console shooter. Also, creative mode is a game where you do what you want. Survival is a mode with restrictions, restrictions that make the game harder but ultimately more enjoyable. I have no problem with criticizing my suggestions for their own merits or the 9 points I have listed and the possible flaws with them, but these are just blanket statements that are incorrect.
If (By some change of heart) I decided to build an underground house, I want to be able to. My mansion thing is well over 1000 wood blocks placed, and it's still being expanded. To make an underground house 1000 blocks large would require diamond, which requires iron, which is required to get a (Semi) decent rate of mining of smoothstone.
I don't understand this, diamond isn't finite. The game world is huge.
And then, I've got to use my diamond, which I would rather use on other projects, on my house, which is a waste.
Here you might have a legit criticism but I need you to expand on it. How do you think the prioritizing of diamond may be compromised and what would you prefer to use it on? Do you think that the issues you put forth by this can be addressed by a specific increase in diamond deposits?
Ultimately my ideas change the flow of the game, the order in which things happen, and have consequences (which I tried to list out) but I don't think they actually prevent anything that can currently be done.
I wouldn't want point 1 to be implemented without point 2 being in effect. If stone was hard to dig through and cave systems weren't expanded, resource gathering would be impossible. So point 1 is dependent on point 2. Hope that clears that part up.
Besides, the best way to describe minecraft is "Dig into the ground and get resources to build stuff"
I mean come on, this isn't ExploreCraft, its MINEcraft.
I certainly hope your not stating that a current description or semantics is the best way to determine what is best for a game.
All in all, you should play minecraft however YOU want to play it. If notch implemented all this, you'd have to play as a nomad. Personally, i like to build a base, a mining shaft, farm, etc. and expand on them. So, instead of having several small outposts, I have a constantly expanding fortress!
This is a fair criticism, it does detract from a constantly expanding fortress. But like I said it also encourages travel, which I think is needed. It's a compromise in both areas.
@minaman
Minecraft has been sold hundreds of thousands of times. I think that it is a very good selling game because of its current flow. To change the flow could potentially ruin Minecraft, make it less fun, less people would buy it, etc.
OR it would just become a little bit funner and it would just be the same.
I would disagree that the flow is not what sells Minecraft but its amazing amount of features, its craft system and its expandability. My idea could make the game worse, it is possible. Or it could, like you say, be a bit funner. These kinds of things take analysis and testing, possibly a one time event for people to try.
Minecraft is amazing because of the way it is. If a block took 30 seconds to mine I wouldnt go ahead and mine it and enjoy every second im wasting mining this one block to get just ONE block lower. And thats just smoothstone... What about if I am mining Obsidian? Is that gonna take an hour or something? its ridiculous.
I proposed no such change to the mining time of any other type of block. I'm unsure why you thought I did.
Mining is almost to -carve- a base, your home into a mountain or underground. To have loads more caves wont make it 'your' mine, it'll just make it a place that you found, you've taken all the materials and now what? Look for another cave... This would discourage the player from ever trying to go full out and discover Lava, new materials and organised and designated mining in shafts, if we did that not only would it take forever and people would loose interest, but there are also caves to go into instead.
To be honest I'm not 100% sure what you are trying to say here. Why does my proposal stop finding lava and new materials? Keep in mind, my proposal to keep diamond tools similarly powered to as they are now. But I might need you to rephrase this paragraph as I don't fully understand your point.
Overall, I rate this, out of ten...
3 and a half out of ten.
One or two of your ideas are good, but they are deeply flawed, silly and you clearly do not see the point in the enjoyment of Minecraft. Obviously its your opinion but the vast majority would disagree with most of your points.
No hard feelings though, Right? :biggrin.gif:
No, of course not no hard feelings. But, saying my ideas are flawed, silly and other subjective descriptions does nothing to disprove the idea. Yes, we are of differing opinions, but at least I offered 9 explanations as proof as to why it might be a good idea. Calling it silly isn't proof of anything.
My suggestion might include some previously mentioned suggestions in it, but the whole suggestion is an attempt to alter how the flow of the game is done. First I want to address the current flow.
I have found that Minecraft can be too efficiently played safely. If you start within the first day, and make an enclosure, you are safe from any danger. I think this is a good thing, I don't feel new players should feel harassed immediately after starting the game so they can get a feel for it.
At this point, most players want to progress the game by acquiring rarer and better materials. Mainly Iron and Diamond, generally. One can gather some wood in the following day, make a ton of picks, and then dig from within their enclosure a stair case, or if preferred a straight hole down with ladders. Then near bottom we mine shaft. If a cave is discovered and we don't wish to deal with it, we just block it up and go another way.
It's efficient, it's safe and mostly not fun. I don't have to consider danger if I don't want to, even though the adventurer in me might want to but it's hard to justify such inefficient actions when I can produce the same result with complete immunity. I have heard notch suggest things such as spawning mobs lower down in lighted hallways, to increase the difficulty, but for me I find this to be inelegant solution as one may one day wish to conquer the depths of the earth and design things there and this might make it impossible.
Here is my simple suggestions(That all have to do with this one goal):
1) Make clean stone take a long time to mine, specifically with stone picks (30 seconds, estimate), noticeably with iron picks(10 seconds, estimate) and only a slight increase in difficulty with diamond picks(1 second estimate, or just keep it like it is).
2) Expand the frequency and depth of caves, especially those that originate from the surface.
3) Make cobblestone the same difficulty to mine as it is now, have it spawn commonly on the surface/in mountains, or at the entrance to caves, or as the first few layers of rock. (This suggestion has only one purpose, and that's to provide the player with an abundance of stone tools that would be removed if clean stone was not easily minable)
What I hope these ideas promote/discourage:
1)Mine shafting would take too long, and be too boring to do (even though it already is really).
2) Cave exploration would be the efficient standard for mineral collection. The only stone you would bother to destroy is the one you can directly see blocking resources you want.
3) Monster interaction would be unavoidable and a more integrated occurrence within the flow of the game, since there will be more dark unexplored areas one must enter if they wish to progress. This increases the importance of weapons/health items.
4) If notch wanted to add complex dungeons into the algorithm of cave creation (which could be used as part of a narrative), the player has a higher likelihood of running into it doing cave exploration than he would strictly mine shafting.
4b) This idea is not necessarily a result of my proposal, but somewhat a direction that can be taken as a result of it and deals with point 4. Algorithms can be written so that multiple cave entrances (perhaps a set number of them, like 5-6) made within an approximate area around your spawn point, randomly located and constructed can all link, eventually within the cave system, to one another for a certain level of redundancy. This would always happen. This redundancy would make sure the player finds at least one entrance, and start to explore this large but expected set of caves. Because players feel the *need* to cave explore to get resources, the players likelihood of going in them are high. In the caves can be a dungeon, with different walls (mossy cobblestone?), different mobs, which randomly generates but is always attached to the cave system one way or another. One would go through it like one would cave explore, deal with its added dangers and eventually reach an end goal. Notch has stated he wants boss mobs, so these dungeons can lead to large rooms with large boss mobs, and the player is likely to eventually find it on virtue of needing to explore these caves in the first place. This gives an elegant way to create a narrative within the minecraft world.
This gives a somewhat Diablo I/II/Net hack/Rogue flow of the game, where as everything is random, but there is set and understood goals in addition that you naturally fall into.
5) The presence of dirt and gravel in a cave become more exciting and more likely to be dug up, as it is easy to do. This has a few possible added benefits. One, gravel will be dug up more and players will receive more flint. (I have noticed most players have a tendency of skipping found gravel because it is basically everywhere). Two, algorithms can be written to commonly hide additional stone passages in the cave behind walls of dirt/gravel. It would grant the feeling of uncovering hidden passages. As it stands now, you dig any direction you want regardless of material, they all are easy, none of them having the feeling of importance.
6) Due to the complexity and confusing nature of caves, and the ability to get lost, there is a larger importance for "things that get you less lost". Signs and markings become a standard of game play.
7) When cave systems near-by your house become exhausted, rather than having seemingly infinite directions to mine shaft and thusly never having to leave your starting location, you will be more inclined to transverse the landscape in search of more cave systems. Additionally, this gives a greater importance to means of travel from your spawn point to farther locations and reasons to set up additional bases. Also, if NPC towns or other hinted things by notch are added to the surface you become more likely to "bump" into them while searching for caves. I personally enjoy being rewarded while doing standard exploration along the landscape.
8) Because diamond is near or same to its current efficiency on clean stone, we can still work on underground projects or clear away undesired mountains with a long lasting but finite resource. Diamonds difficulty in acquiring is increased as well as the feeling of joy achieving it.
9) The "monsters spawn deep down regardless of light" isn't a necessary solution, as players will always have a reason to go to new areas and encounter monsters.
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Feel free to poke any holes you might see in this idea, but I personally have a hard time seeing how mine shafting can ever measure up to the pleasure and excitement of cave exploration.
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Haha, my girlfriend said something to the same effect. She said it was like a scratch lottery ticket, most times you lose, but it feels awesome when she finds something. Which is a feeling I got, too, but quickly diminished, for me personally, after a few days of doing it. Now for me mineshafting is look up, look down, look up, look down, move forward. It has a very repetitive feel to it, while the randomness of caves have such variation that the same feeling doesn't overcome me. I'm generally more alert too, watching for baddies.
Your question, what if you get lost. That's a legitimate concern, though one of my points did address it stating that signs and other landmarks would have a greater effect. You can always place/remove dirt to make signals for yourself. Given time I think the community would come up with creative solutions to that specific problem.
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I'm sorry, I might be unable to take anything you write serious anymore. But if it's an consolation, you are now a meme among my roomates. Anything that involves "Going to objective A, Doing Something, and Progressing" is now a console shooter.
Making dinner was a console shooter. Coming back to make this post to you is also a console shooter. Specifically console too, cause it would be silly to think that making dinner is a PC shooter.
Thank you very much for posting in a more constructive fashion, I do appreciate it. I agree with your point, that if stone was made harder to mine in a world that already doesn't compensate for it with a
deep mining experience would be very painful. Perhaps this shouldn't apply to current worlds. I liked the idea of trying it as a one time event, so that we could create a new world and try it out and have it revert to see what it might be like.
I'd like to see those deep underground caves link up with the ones that go to the surface, so that it is quite likely that one could start from the surface and make your way down to diamond levels. I actually find the drilling to the bottom and getting diamond at the moment, can be done in 10-15 minutes of a new world. I feel that a bit undermines the accomplishment.
Ok, your point about the sandbox one is much better. Currently there is 2 ways to mine. I feel if people truly enjoy the mine shafting way, it shouldn't be removed. I'd hate to take something out that people enjoy. I did start with the assumption that most people enjoy caving a lot more and wouldn't miss straight mineshafting too much, which could certainly be wrong. I guess that's for the community to chime in on. I personally like its efficiency and safety, but not its funness.
Your last point ignores my third part of the suggestion, that cobblestone be found near the top of the level with easy access to. Cobblestone would mine as it does now, so that large quantities of stone are available for use. (I realized how important it is)
It's true, that is opinion, but so is the enjoyment of it, and these are fine things to comment on and state your own so we can have a concensus.
That's fair. I sincerely dont want to make a suggestion that makes the game less fun for a significant portion of players.
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A few notes: 30 seconds doesn't have to be the exact number, the number I want is just one that discourages players from mineshafting. 30 seconds probably is too long.
Those people ignoring points 2 and 3 need to read them, I don't want to have to respond to "Now there is no stone" or "There isn't enough caves for this to work" when clearly I wrote something for those specific cases.
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I think you are right, I believe a suggestion that makes the game more difficult in an area will always be generally looked down upon unless proved in practice with evidence that it might work, while suggestions that add features are more likely to be looked on in a positive light.
Which is okay, but a bit aggravating when people perceive an idea with an automatic bias.
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Regardless, I'll try to address what you guys have said.
The idea is that caves would lead to diamond, and the rest of the minerals. I wouldn't want minerals to be impossible to get. What I found good about limiting the option, in my mind, was a steering mechanism to promote cave exploration. I've done a fair share of shaft mining and cave exploring, and I sincerely enjoyed cave exploration more. I could be wrong in the assumption, that the choice of mine shafting, is more fun for others than I thought people found it. If this is the case, and people enjoy it, it does make the suggestion indeed pointless. My only goal was to steer away from a less enjoyable form of mineral collection and promote a more fun one, not impose restrictions that anger people. Though I had an idea that any suggestion that would make the game more restricted or harder would be hard for others to digest. (Or apparently reasonably think about).
No, I'm asking you to clarify with specifics. The only thing I'm ignorant about is how you came to your conclusions after you spewed them. That was your fault, not mine. You've now further clarified it, however, and that is actually helpful.
I'm sorry, but this is just stupidity. Your description of a "console shooter" is so generic it applies to almost every game ever, or at least any game with a narrative arc, which is something Notch specifically says he wants to implement (in whichever form he chooses to do). So eventually the game will likely follow that description.
If you said, "I like Minecraft because unlike other common games, it doesn't follow the pattern "Go to objective A, do something, progress in game"" than you'd look less stupid. That's not the formula for a console shooter specifically nor will it ever be. "Do something"? Seriously? I mean, I know it'll make you angry at me, but that is just a lol statement.
The proposal was so that instead of mining you would get resources in caves. I don't want in anyway to prevent people from getting resources. The making a giant underground cave thing is valid, but I don't think the "being able to mine for resources" is.
So you mean delay. Not prevention. A prevention is an impossibility. I know this is semantics, and yes I understand what you are trying to say. I'm just hoping you understand the difference. As to your time frames, I don't think cave exploring for resources would cause a 12X speed decrease.
First, regardless of what 4chan says, caps are not cruise control for cool. Nor do they actually make your point louder or more important. Feel free to make your point without them.
Second, you state that my example of the progression of the game is inaccurate and you later tell me that it's more like being forced to choose a class in an MMORPG? That is more accurate how?
Third, you state that removing choices is almost always bad and that adding choices is almost always good. I disagree, game development often removes choices that disrupt flow of games, but you don't see this because games are released after these edits are made. In addition, I think we can all think of a choice we could add to a game (like minecraft) that makes it worse. In fact, its easier to think of things that make it worse than it is to think of ones to make it better, so the logic that additional choices almost always make it better is incorrect. Each choice, added or subtracted, should be judged for its specific merits. If you can't do that, you can't accurately judge an idea.
Fourth, your edits could have credit. Though, if you agree cave exploration is more fun, do you think that game edits that steer towards it are a good thing or a bad thing, or do you just feel that my suggestion is overpowered? If so, can you make any edits to it that would make it more of a possibility to you?
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Don't follow this logic. You are forced to do many things in minecraft as a prerequisite (unless you are in creative mode) to other things. Which is kind of the point. Did you stop playing the game cause you *had* to get a wood pick to get stone, or was this transitional period part of the charm of the game?
I hardly think my suggestion makes it analogous to a console shooter. Also, creative mode is a game where you do what you want. Survival is a mode with restrictions, restrictions that make the game harder but ultimately more enjoyable. I have no problem with criticizing my suggestions for their own merits or the 9 points I have listed and the possible flaws with them, but these are just blanket statements that are incorrect.
I don't understand this, diamond isn't finite. The game world is huge.
Here you might have a legit criticism but I need you to expand on it. How do you think the prioritizing of diamond may be compromised and what would you prefer to use it on? Do you think that the issues you put forth by this can be addressed by a specific increase in diamond deposits?
Ultimately my ideas change the flow of the game, the order in which things happen, and have consequences (which I tried to list out) but I don't think they actually prevent anything that can currently be done.
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I wouldn't want point 1 to be implemented without point 2 being in effect. If stone was hard to dig through and cave systems weren't expanded, resource gathering would be impossible. So point 1 is dependent on point 2. Hope that clears that part up.
I certainly hope your not stating that a current description or semantics is the best way to determine what is best for a game.
This is a fair criticism, it does detract from a constantly expanding fortress. But like I said it also encourages travel, which I think is needed. It's a compromise in both areas.
@minaman
I would disagree that the flow is not what sells Minecraft but its amazing amount of features, its craft system and its expandability. My idea could make the game worse, it is possible. Or it could, like you say, be a bit funner. These kinds of things take analysis and testing, possibly a one time event for people to try.
I proposed no such change to the mining time of any other type of block. I'm unsure why you thought I did.
To be honest I'm not 100% sure what you are trying to say here. Why does my proposal stop finding lava and new materials? Keep in mind, my proposal to keep diamond tools similarly powered to as they are now. But I might need you to rephrase this paragraph as I don't fully understand your point.
No, of course not no hard feelings. But, saying my ideas are flawed, silly and other subjective descriptions does nothing to disprove the idea. Yes, we are of differing opinions, but at least I offered 9 explanations as proof as to why it might be a good idea. Calling it silly isn't proof of anything.
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I have found that Minecraft can be too efficiently played safely. If you start within the first day, and make an enclosure, you are safe from any danger. I think this is a good thing, I don't feel new players should feel harassed immediately after starting the game so they can get a feel for it.
At this point, most players want to progress the game by acquiring rarer and better materials. Mainly Iron and Diamond, generally. One can gather some wood in the following day, make a ton of picks, and then dig from within their enclosure a stair case, or if preferred a straight hole down with ladders. Then near bottom we mine shaft. If a cave is discovered and we don't wish to deal with it, we just block it up and go another way.
It's efficient, it's safe and mostly not fun. I don't have to consider danger if I don't want to, even though the adventurer in me might want to but it's hard to justify such inefficient actions when I can produce the same result with complete immunity. I have heard notch suggest things such as spawning mobs lower down in lighted hallways, to increase the difficulty, but for me I find this to be inelegant solution as one may one day wish to conquer the depths of the earth and design things there and this might make it impossible.
Here is my simple suggestions(That all have to do with this one goal):
1) Make clean stone take a long time to mine, specifically with stone picks (30 seconds, estimate), noticeably with iron picks(10 seconds, estimate) and only a slight increase in difficulty with diamond picks(1 second estimate, or just keep it like it is).
2) Expand the frequency and depth of caves, especially those that originate from the surface.
3) Make cobblestone the same difficulty to mine as it is now, have it spawn commonly on the surface/in mountains, or at the entrance to caves, or as the first few layers of rock. (This suggestion has only one purpose, and that's to provide the player with an abundance of stone tools that would be removed if clean stone was not easily minable)
What I hope these ideas promote/discourage:
1)Mine shafting would take too long, and be too boring to do (even though it already is really).
2) Cave exploration would be the efficient standard for mineral collection. The only stone you would bother to destroy is the one you can directly see blocking resources you want.
3) Monster interaction would be unavoidable and a more integrated occurrence within the flow of the game, since there will be more dark unexplored areas one must enter if they wish to progress. This increases the importance of weapons/health items.
4) If notch wanted to add complex dungeons into the algorithm of cave creation (which could be used as part of a narrative), the player has a higher likelihood of running into it doing cave exploration than he would strictly mine shafting.
4b) This idea is not necessarily a result of my proposal, but somewhat a direction that can be taken as a result of it and deals with point 4. Algorithms can be written so that multiple cave entrances (perhaps a set number of them, like 5-6) made within an approximate area around your spawn point, randomly located and constructed can all link, eventually within the cave system, to one another for a certain level of redundancy. This would always happen. This redundancy would make sure the player finds at least one entrance, and start to explore this large but expected set of caves. Because players feel the *need* to cave explore to get resources, the players likelihood of going in them are high. In the caves can be a dungeon, with different walls (mossy cobblestone?), different mobs, which randomly generates but is always attached to the cave system one way or another. One would go through it like one would cave explore, deal with its added dangers and eventually reach an end goal. Notch has stated he wants boss mobs, so these dungeons can lead to large rooms with large boss mobs, and the player is likely to eventually find it on virtue of needing to explore these caves in the first place. This gives an elegant way to create a narrative within the minecraft world.
This gives a somewhat Diablo I/II/Net hack/Rogue flow of the game, where as everything is random, but there is set and understood goals in addition that you naturally fall into.
5) The presence of dirt and gravel in a cave become more exciting and more likely to be dug up, as it is easy to do. This has a few possible added benefits. One, gravel will be dug up more and players will receive more flint. (I have noticed most players have a tendency of skipping found gravel because it is basically everywhere). Two, algorithms can be written to commonly hide additional stone passages in the cave behind walls of dirt/gravel. It would grant the feeling of uncovering hidden passages. As it stands now, you dig any direction you want regardless of material, they all are easy, none of them having the feeling of importance.
6) Due to the complexity and confusing nature of caves, and the ability to get lost, there is a larger importance for "things that get you less lost". Signs and markings become a standard of game play.
7) When cave systems near-by your house become exhausted, rather than having seemingly infinite directions to mine shaft and thusly never having to leave your starting location, you will be more inclined to transverse the landscape in search of more cave systems. Additionally, this gives a greater importance to means of travel from your spawn point to farther locations and reasons to set up additional bases. Also, if NPC towns or other hinted things by notch are added to the surface you become more likely to "bump" into them while searching for caves. I personally enjoy being rewarded while doing standard exploration along the landscape.
8) Because diamond is near or same to its current efficiency on clean stone, we can still work on underground projects or clear away undesired mountains with a long lasting but finite resource. Diamonds difficulty in acquiring is increased as well as the feeling of joy achieving it.
9) The "monsters spawn deep down regardless of light" isn't a necessary solution, as players will always have a reason to go to new areas and encounter monsters.
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Feel free to poke any holes you might see in this idea, but I personally have a hard time seeing how mine shafting can ever measure up to the pleasure and excitement of cave exploration.
Thank you.