Minecraft Forums

Unholy, there is a difference between adding something for-fun to the game, and nerfing something that wasn't actually causing problems for anyone but the diehard survival fans who think that surviving in Minecraft should be the end all challenge, and that food is somehow hard to get so Bonemeal makes it easier.

I also do not want to use mods because Mojang makes a bad decision. I'd rather they fix the bad choice by being provided feedback, instead of me just giving in and saying that it's their game and they can change whatever the heck they want to without negative feedback.

Quote from UnholyD

No need to be sarcastic...

There is need to be sarcastic, because the nerf to Bonemeal was completely unneeded and the people who claim that Bonemeal was OP have no actual evidence to support their claim, other than their opinion.

Quote from cecilhowe

I totally agree that passive farming is best because of the time allowed to do other things. Just making some points about things.

If you agree that passive farming is better, then why is Bonemeal OP and passive farming not?

This kind of logic would only make sense if you felt that farming regardless was OP, which your actions thus far would imply.

Because passively growing crops was even easier than Bonemeal, so the challenge has practically decreased.

I feel that Bonemeal's usage was just fine, and that it was just lacking is use because there really aren't many things you can use it for.

Food is abundant without Bonemeal... Bonemeal's real uses were growing trees for convenience, and getting Flowers and Seeds, and sometimes as a dye.

Quote from Wanderer

My question is:
"How does this affect you, in which parts of your gameplay, and why are you against it?"
You keep saying how insignificant bonemeal is. So why does it matter to you?

I'll tell you my side.

It doesn't affect my gameplay. I never relied upon it and It was never OP for me because I always survived well enough without it. Plus, the use on crops gives you some food. Big whoop, as I can go over a hill, find an animal, and kill it for better food. The few times I do use it for crops are now going to require seven times the input for something that used to require one use, making it more annoying to use, and discouraging me from using it in the first place. For me, the use of Bonemeal will go from "on occasion" to "rarely if ever", and I feel that Bonemeal, as it was, needed more uses, not reduced capabilities for its lackluster uses.

However, though I am not them, the nerf will leave a very negative impact on the people who do use it, forcing them to switch to more conventional farming. I do not support forcing everyone to play the same way, so, even though I do not use it, I will defend those who do use it because alternative playstyles should be encouraged in a sandbox, not eliminated due to half-assed attempts to make the game "harder" for people with thousands of Bones.

In addition, the few times where I do use Bonemeal for anything will be negatively affected by this nerf. Convenience is ruined early game, PvP servers now are twenty times less fun because I'm rooted to the spot, waiting for Wheat to grow, and Custom maps with intentionally limited resources are now more tedious and less fun to play because I have to risk my life to get the seeds, to get the Bones, and I'm not rewarded with enough food to sustain myself, after all of that risk.

Overall, I hate the change, and hope that Dinnerbone does not listen to these hardcore survival junkies that claim Bonemeal was OP, and makes it useful again.

I doubt that was even the reason he nerfed it. It is significantly more likely that he only nerfed it to make sure that Dispensers filled with Bonemeal wouldn't be broken. Not that I can understand why he even allowed Dispensers to use Bonemeal in the first place...

Quote from redstonevet90

So, how does any of this mean that the bonemeal nerf wasn't because of it undermined the food restoration and hunger bar system? None of the things you just mentioned would work without it. Bonemeal makes everything you just said easier.

Because it doesn't undermine the food restoration and hunger bar system.

As I've been saying consistently throughout the week, the overabundance of food regardless of Bonemeals existence and use undermines the threat of starvation. Bonemeal simply expedites the farming process a tad.


Just because you can rely on Bonemeal as your source of food, does not mean that you actually have any advantages over the people who do not rely on Bonemeal as their source of food. Food is plenty abundant without factoring in Bonemeal, and only becomes even more common the longer you stay on a map, voiding any advantages you might have and they were already insignificant.

I'm not going to try to change your ways, but, seriously, having some extra food is far from a game-breaking issue.

I call bull. Sure, Notch expressed desires to make Minecraft more Rogue-like but I fail to see how nerfing Bonemeal makes regular Minecraft more Rogue-like or how any of the changes to Minecraft have made it more Rogue-like. It's still a sandbox with RPG elements and none of the traditional Rogue-like gameplay elements even make an appearance in pure vanilla Minecraft.

By nerfing Bonemeal. you remove one way to get food... Big deal. You're not making the game any more rogue-like except to the people who even use Bonemeal on crops, and, even then, they'll just move on and build a farm instead which is the better choice regardless.

Food is still incredibly easy to get. I can list multiple ways to obtain enough food to do more than survive before you even encounter your first Skeleton. Nerfing Bonemeal does not magically solve the problem you people have with the (lack of) difficulty in surviving in Minecraft.

Quote from Natecraft

OT: Like I said, bonemeal was OP, and don't just say "Ignore it!" because if people play on PvP survival servers, their competition could just use bonemeal and have tons of food while you are falling behind in food production.

"Can use" and "Forced to use because every other food source has been stripped away" are two completely different things. And, really, the player has more food... so what? That means that the player can finally step outside and go exploring, or go mining to get Iron instead of staring at crops while they grow.

It's not OP to have fun instead of being bored to death for hours, is it?

And then... it's food. It doesn't turn you invulnerable to hostile mobs, and definitely does not make you so strong that you, with Food and Stone Sword in hand, can take on Diamond-armored players and win. All it does is allow you to be able to play Minecraft and have fun getting to the point where you can take on Diamond-armored players, instead of being limited in the same way that players were before Beta 1.8.

I see no problems with Bonemeal on PvP servers. The people who need it there often have no alternatives, and those that don't need it/use it often have those alternatives. A nerf to how much fun a player can have is not a good nerf.

I've yet to see getting food actually become anything resembling a challenge (even if you never touched Bonemeal, may I add) except in very specific scenarios that only arise due to external forces beyond the players control.

That is why I feel that the Bonemeal nerf was unjustified. You get a few Bones and are able to expedite the growth process... so what? By the time you've got Bones, you're not starving to death due to the overabundance of food sources (which, if I may remind you, were added by Mojang in 1.8 as well).

In order to actually make hunger a threat, you will have to nerf much more than Bonemeal. You'd have to nerf everything that supplies edible items, of which Bonemeal may be included. Only then will I believe that the hunger system was added to make players lives more strenuous and harder. Otherwise, I'll still feel that Bonemeal did not need to be nerfed because you could get a few crops quicker.

I also feel that Dispensers utilizing Bonemeal should have never been added. Seeds, yes, but Bonemeal? What is the point, exactly?

Quote from vasouv

I used to give a crap about random online namecalling; then I took an arrow to the knee...

(Man I've always wanted to use that, cheers!)

Now, the reason I call this a "hate thread" is actually what Chaos coloured in that quote; you jump to conclusions saying "awwwghh sliders won't solve anything" when you cannot possibly know how they will implement the system! Normal users > programmers at coding? I don't think so. Do I have a blind faith in Mojang? Yes, 'cause they're the freaking programmers! Do I enjoy the game over the past 6 months? Yes. Will I bash Mojang if they resolve to some kind of idiocy? Yes, I'm not being paid by them...

Careful, "crap" is considered a bad word on the forums now. Funny how they haven't censored it.

Sliders will not solve anything because all they do is impose more restrictions and limitations onto the terrain. However this time they aren't forced -- they are optional, but the limitations imposed on us already will most likely stay around for a while. This is because sliders aren't a base. Even if I did support sliders, I still feel like they have nothing to do with this thread. A good base is to actually rework the terrain generator. Exalm did it in a limited amount of time. I'm sure if he had more time he could perfect it.

If Dinnerbone elaborated more on the concept that "sliders will be a base for further implementations" (I don't see how it would anyway...), then this thread would have been locked by then. Sliders are just more work. According to Dinnerbone, all it's doing is splitting up the game's generator into options. It's NOT fixing the issue. If he wants to fix generation, he will fix generation.

Also, seeing that most of Mojang's work is unfinished (sad, but true), sliders will just take so much time. It's not the right implementation. Until the game's core features are polished, I say that they shouldn't implement anything new.

And don't give me that "you haven't played 1.7.3" crap. DarkBadgeWaffles uploaded two old maps and I played in both of them. I said they were impressive yes, I wouldn't want the crazy generation though. Moreover, I love the Extreme Hills, I always build stuff there and thus I don't want the biome to disappear. Don't really care about the caves, I'm all about the loot. Lastly, I hate gravel beaches (yes I've seen them) and I don't want them in my game.

Is everyone clear on where I stand regarding the OP?

As said before, the removal of the EH is controversial. I can see why you like it. Its basic feature is dull-mountainous terrain. Some people like that ... whatever. The X-hills biomes, however, need to go.

Also, I really couldn't care less if you hate gravel beaches. You know what I hate? Flat terrain that stretches for a kilometer. I don't like seeing it and I won't build on it. If it comes onto my world at some point of time you know what I'll do? IGNORE IT. Stop being a terrain-nazi.

Are you seriously suggesting that making leather more common then iron won't make people consider using leather armour?

Are you still, in all seriousness, suggesting that farming cows is "difficult", as opposed to a simple "time sink"?

.... And are you, in all earnestness, suggesting Minecraft should be "balanced" around combat rather then building stuff??

No, you're not, are you. You're stating these things as facts still. Oh dear.

I get the impression that you're not here for debate, and don't care in the slightest what happens to the drop rate. You just wish to hear people tell you you're right. But take a step back and look at what you're writing, and you'll see why I have such a hard time taking you seriously.

Quote from redstonevet90

I already responded to this "point" 3 times already.... Now for the 4th time, since you like making me repeat myself. Most of MC is repetitive gathering, what makes the game difficult is the rarity of the items you are gathering. Having access to rare and valuable items is what determines your success in the game. They guy with the enchanted diamond armour is the guy that wins the fight in pvp and easily kills mobs.

Therefore, making items that are valuable and take awhile to attain easier to get, will absolutely make the game easier.

Enchanting requires diamonds and obsidian. Level 30 enchants require a fairly large amount of EXP and if you die by accident or something, you lose over 83% of it. If balancing solely for PVP and enchanting is your goal, why not suggest that the EXP needed is increased higher. I don't understand why you're so adamant that leather have its drop buffed slightly, as I suggested. It would only take 1/3 less time on average and would get rid of frustrating, random failures. Overall, if leather was just guaranteed a drop and if 1.4 does release on Halloween, then the net work increase from 1.2.5. to 1.4 for maximum leather enchants would still be higher than before. Why does leather absolutely need that 33% failure rate?

Quote from redstonevet90

Dude I listed 6 ways to easily attain leather, I repeated them 2x for you already, I'm not going to repeat them for a 3rd time. Go back and read my previous posts. 3 ways I listed were SP based and they also happened to be the 3 most effective, easy ways to get leather.

I've said this many times. The discussion and my points are taking into account all of leather's uses. Books from villages and strongholds don't resolve the issue of leather not being balanced towards allowing higher level enchantments and the weakest armor in the game. Especially since they're apparently, judging by several threads in the forums, somewhat rare (villages) and limited to 3 a world?

Quote from redstonevet90

Then what do you want to talk about leather armour? - Nobody ever used it and has no interest in using it because iron is so easy to find.
Writable books? - Kill a couple stray cows and a chicken in the wild and make one - Done, it's easy.

Enchanting is the main critical issue sourrounding this entire debate. You cannot pretend that enchating doesn't exist just because it doesn't support your argument.

Therefore, I will not stop with the "enchanting ********" because this is the major flaw in your reasoning. I also got your "point." I simply don't agree at all and I told you why. Then rather than refute, or debate any of the points I made, you just repeat your same faulty reasoning over, and over. Ignoring enchanting.

You say I'm ignoring enchanting when you ignore EVERYTHING ELSE. That is the major flaw in your reasoning and if you paid attention to my posts, I do bring up enchanting. It is not logical to balance something towards a much higher tier at the expense of earlier tiers. Leather armor should not be unused and often skipped because it is more time consume to obtain and weaker than iron. To be honest, I've thought that Mojang should guarantee the drop since the mob spawning system changed just to encourage it. This isn't a new thing for me.

Honestly, I only suggest 1-2 drop because it would still keep most of the "difficulty" of enchanting but remove the failure rate that might decrease the difficulty of obtaining leather armor and making it used.

Quote from redstonevet90

Personally, I am fine with a 77% chance of getting leather. Seems like good odds to me.

A)67% on average
Think about it like this. I can set up everything perfectly yet I still randomly fail no matter what I do. In terms of gameplay, it kind of sucks.

Quote from redstonevet90

Well, that's what creative, or a giant cow farm is for. You seriously expect the Dev's to change the balancing of an extra weapon/tool/armour teir because you want to build a "giant ****ing castle?" - Grow up.

It was an example. An example. I understand that the game should not be based around my insane desire to build and furnish a giant castle. Judging by the new thread that Bumper posted, I'm not the only one.

Which brings me to why I'm posting, besides giving a rebuttal that will most likely be ignored like I apparently ignore yours. We should probably move this discussion to the thread below. Bookshelves needing leather is not the sole issue and the original purpose of the thread is obsolete since Mojang will most likely not change it back.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1448912-cows-pigs-and-the-problems-with-leather-armor/

/signed
This ore is amazing. If you think about it, Minecraft is already a wonderful game but with emerald ore as a currency system with villagers, Minecraft becomes more than just a video game. With a new connection with villagers, Minecraft becomes also a world with an economy.

I find his removing it to be fairly unreasonable. The only reason to remove something is if people complain that it shouldn't be in game, even then removal should be considered carefully, and only if there is an overwhelming (multi-million user) complaint. No one said that emerald ore shouldn't be in the game, just that it shouldn't be so rare. I currently have no opinion other than that it should be in game. So if you read this Jeb, then please add the ore back into the game.

I will sign the petition. /signed

I totally agree. I understand why he removed it, but we haven't had a new ore in over a year, and even it doesn't do much.
This game is called MINEcraft, mining from the start was a decent part of the game. Mining is a big deal, and it still is, but eventually, you get to the stage I'm at. You never mine anymore, you just don't, because there's nothing left to mine. I have so many diamonds, and so much gold, iron, redstone, and lapis that I never mine anymore. There needs to be new ores that add content to the game.

tl;dr: Bring back emerald ore, but if you don't want it to be used for trading then just give it some new uses.

/signed

I suggested this already I think, but it still needs to be added, as well as coal and redstone blocks.

This idea is simple enough in my opinion, So here we go...

Every dungeon chest would guarantee having ONE enchantment scroll, Enchantment scrolls are just pieces of paper that carry a single enchantment.

Right clicking with the scroll opens a crafting menu where you stick in an item that's compatible with whatever enchantment's written on the scroll. That means you're GUARENTEED that enchantment.

So, If you find an enchantment scroll of silk touch you are ONE LUCKY ****ER.

This means if you're willing to WORK FOR IT you can BYPASS the RANDOMNESS of enchantments!


There is however, ONE drawback...

The level of the enchantment's still random!

What are your thoughts?

Under this current recipe, you would be very dumb to craft leather armor since it would be incredibly wasteful. This results in leather armor becoming worse than wood tools.
-Wood tools can be burned for fuel, don't waste slow to get resources, and speed up the first few minutes of resource gathering.
-Leather armor on the other hand uses large amounts of a grindy to renew resource. Due to the time and levels needed to set up a farm for leather, it becomes "mid-game" material that by the time of set up you will likely already be coming in contact with iron. Possibly to the point of having iron armor pieces.* Leather armor is outdated by that point, and due to leather's importance wih enchanting it makes this potential armor set pointless and completely wasteful.

So not only does it hurt decorative block usage, which is making something difficult that shouldn't be because it serves no function other than aesthetics, but it also hurts the original uses for the materials needed.

*This is assuming that you are mining while your wheat farm grows to a reasonable size rather than standing around staring at it.



As an aside for realism-
It should be noted that the average cow seems to produce about 50 square feet of cowhide.
http://www.dmsleathe...age=calculating

Using the maths (which I believe is correct, but it's been a while so I may have made a mistake), we have 600 square inches. Let's pretend a book is 8.5" x 11" (most aren't, but let's pretend), so one side needs 93.5 square inches of leather. Two sides need a total of 187 square inches of leather, so 600 / 187 = 3.21 books.

Now, this is without stretching the leather, which would be rather wasteful. Normally you'd stretch that leather out to get it's maximum usage. It can be stretched to be as thin as paper, but you don't do that unless you're making pages out of the leather. So at a minimum, a cow should either drop a guaranteed 2-3 leathers or crafting should make 3 books a pop.

Note that according to wikipedia (suitable for this non-academic discussion), the traditional mass market paperback is 9" x 6". Doing the same calculations gives us a possible 5.6 books per cow or per leather. The question then becomes whether or not a leather represents the entire skin of the cow or merely a part of the cow, which would then determine what side of the fence should be changed, cow drops or book production. Alternatively, cows, sheep, and pigs all drop leather but in varying amounts.