I'd like to see the dumbasses that supported the Enderman's broken block lifting abilities in 1.8 say something about this now.
Oh wait, they are keeping quiet because this update is what we've been asking for and they feel like retards because despite the block lifting nerf, the Enderman has actually been improved to be deadlier. They dodge arrows, never die in sunlight, takes at least 4 hits of the diamond sword to die and teleports instantly out of water.
Please, come and post here so that I can tell you that I TOLD YOU SO.
Unfortunately, with this mindset, it's the same as telling others how to play :\. It's not a very good argument for pro-endermen. Not blaming this against you, phoenix, just pointing out the problem with the argument.
Indeed. Minecraft stops being a sandbox game when the player is restricted to only one way of playing the game.
I kindof got lost in this topic alittle so I thought maybe someone else would too so I'll kindof sum up the two arguments like this:
Pro Endermen Block Moving: Your things should be able to be wrecked since they shouldn't be so sensitive and hard to find that it really matters, or it should be protected. They sand castle might've had to have been two thick to fix the problem. Some agree as long as it becomes more intentional.
No Endermen Block Moving: You shouldn't have to go out of our way to fix damages that make the world ugly and random. Structures should be able to be just kindof there and no real need to have a thick border or special thing. Some agree on this side that is should remain just not in it's current form that it would be less random more intentional.
If you disagree with this summary, feel free to correct it because this is how I see it.
I can provide a summary for the No Enderman block removal side:
*The Enderman removes blocks in a haphazard fashion in walls that are never big or wide enough to allow mobs through. That in itself doesn't put the player's survival in any danger. It does however, makes the wall look very ugly, while doing nothing to weaken the defense the wall provides. They take blocks out of trees leaving floating logs. Floating logs and potholes in the landscape does not challenge the player's survival, it just makes the landscape ugly.
*The Enderman has very low HP (dies in 2 hits), does very little amounts of damage, and gets stuck in hallways and doors. How does keeping the block moving ability supposed to make them more dangerous? Their problem is the AI, which needs to be improved and their health and damage buffed instead of keeping a broken random AI for picking up blocks.
*Enderman destroys redstone and railway tracks. It essentially makes 2 very large parts of Minecraft Survival mode, unusable. It's pointless making rails in creative mode when you can fly everywhere anyway, so obviously rails are meant to be for survival mode to link bases. There is an existing bug where in snowy biomes, snowfall will destroy and delete exposed redstone, torches and railway tracks. This is similar to what the Enderman does and it's very clear that Notch does not intend on the random destruction of redstone or tracks unless it is player triggered, which is why he is fixing the snowfall bug and is also why he limits the Enderman's block lifting ability.
*There is also the problem of Notch wanting to implement NPC villages into the upcoming update and having them function in some capacity... As villages. However this isn't possible with the Enderman picking those villages apart as soon as they are generated on the map.
*Endermen forces the player to camp in his base to repair the damage caused by endermen, because leaving the base for any extended periods of time will cause the base to be ruined by the time you get back. Forcing the player to camp in their base to repair stuff goes against the nature of the adventure update where it is supposed to encourage you to go outside to explore and have an adventure.
This is just a summary of the pages and pages of legitimate points raised in this thread. I hope this enlightens you on the main issue and that this isn't merely senseless whining or player preference.
It's not about "I hate the Enderman and they should be nerfed". It's about the fact that their block removing ability conflicts with some very basic core mechanics of the Minecraft game. Their AI needs improving if the block carrying ability were to return. As the AI stands now, it's not feasible to give it the ability to pick up blocks.
best topic about this, EVER!
I was going to have so much fun fixing the mob traps they would destroy with the same way they make self repairing bridges.
Anything that adds creative to minecraft = GOOD!
I do think they should be more smart and dangerous of course, but I don't think they should loose their ability to pick up and place blocks. They are kind off lame as they are now though...
RANDOM IDEA: what if random nether portals would spawn in your world, owned by endermans coming from hell. they would make a castle with blocks they find and invite some friends from the nether :biggrin.gif: Maybe even gather up forces and attack you (when on hardcore mode/hard)
Those are good ideas. I'm all for giving the Enderman purpose/intelligence for their block lifting abilities.
While I'm against keeping their current 1.8 block lifting abilities, I also want to make sure they don't simply get nerfed without an adequate substitute. Their stats and damage can be increased too.
People tend to think we want the Enderman nerfed permanently, but that is untrue. We really just want them fixed. Much like how the minecart booster was a bug, but was removed and an acceptable substitute of powered rails were added instead. It made more sense aesthetically, and functionally without changing the core aspects of boosting.
The argument I responded to was not. It did not restrict where the example could come from, so I provided one. Only now that that's been done have you guys restricted your argument to "almost" all cases. Yet the moment you do that you concede the argument has some validity in some cases. This demonstrates quite clearly that all you folks are arguing for is a preference.
Which is fine. I completely respect your preference to not have Endermen remove blocks. Just don't try and dress it up as some sort of objective truth that it's always a negative. It's not. In my case in particular, Endermen moving blocks presents a specific survival challenge/situation that I've had fun figuring out ways to deal with. (hint: Beds work wonders until you've got your defenses laid out)
Admitted, it's still not as challenging as the time I restricted myself from using torches, but you didn't see me complaining about how creepers spawned in the dark even if I wasn't there and there was nothing I could do about it -- because there was. I put in glass floors.
I think the point Skylinerw was trying to make was that although you play the game differently and uniquely compared to everyone else, your experiences with the Enderman are just not enough to justify keeping it's block lifting ability in the game for the rest of the Minecraft community, simply because they don't play like you do.
Taking a block destroys the structural integrity of the castle, the sand falls, the torches fall, the sand those torches were supporting falls, which makes the signs they were holding up fall, and so on, until you're buried in sand 4 or 5 levels deep that used to be your ceiling and second floor.
And yet, this is not what 99% of all houses in minecraft are made out of. This is quite easily the most aggravating thing to argue with because you're really just pulling at straws at the vain attempt of trying to be correct at something so small and irrelevant to what everyone else is discussing.
If you are playing Minecraft survival, why would you chose to build a shelter out of collapsible sand? Even if you spawn in the desert, the first thing people would do in that survival situation is to make sandstone.
Making an unstable building and then waiting for the Enderman to take one block away and then declare the mob as 'challenging' makes as much sense as building a wooden house next to a lava pool, then waiting for it to catch fire before declaring lava 'challenging'. It's not the lava or Enderman that destroyed the structure, you deliberately made the situation dangerous for yourself.
Your argument doesn't stand because you are saying that for the tiny minority of people that build their structures out of either gravel and sand, the Enderman is a challenge for them.
In case you didn't realize, the other blocks that are readily available to build with, don't follow gravity and hence, why 99% of most structures built by players, wont collapse if one block is taken away. It may be a challenge to YOU, but you gotta think about how it affects others and the game mechanics as a whole.
But now you are just distracting me away from the main argument. Why do I even bother to address your reply, I must be too naive to think that I can actually reason with someone.
The myriad of posts don't list logical flaws. They list preferences.
Many people seem to prefer to be the center of the universe, and seem unable to handle that things might happen beyond their control that they have to either plan for ahead of time or be willing to accept the consequences. I don't.
In case you missed my last few posts, let me enlighten you on what the logical problems are:
My argument against the Enderman's block lifting ability concerns it breaking very core game mechanisms. I am in no way pushing for a personal agenda against the enderman.
I notably pointed out redstone and railway tracks that are essentially made unfeasible under current Enderman conditions. They are both very large parts in Minecraft survival and having the Enderman destroy them makes these parts of the game unplayable.
There is an existing bug where in snowy biomes, snowfall will destroy and delete exposed redstone, torches and railway tracks. This is similar to what the Enderman does and it's very clear that Notch does not intend on the random destruction of redstone or tracks unless it is player triggered, which is why he is fixing the snowfall bug and is also why he limits the Enderman's block lifting ability.
There is also the problem of Notch wanting to implement NPC villages into the upcoming update and having them function in some capacity... As villages. However this isn't possible with the Enderman picking those villages apart as soon as they are generated on the map.
I hope you can see where the other side of the discussion is coming from. From a functional point of view.
I am arguing from the point of how the Enderman blocks out certain core mechanics. They are not preferences, they are core game mechanic facts.
Add to that the fact that the point of survival mode isn't to build pretty things, it's to survive.
I'd also like to hear your opinion on what's the point of the adventure update within the Minecraft survival mode, when you're forced to camp in your base repairing stuff all day. Where does the adventure and exploration fit into all of this?
What a mature and well thought out rebuttal against the myriad of posts listing out logical flaws of the current system. Do you reply to all discussions like this?
I LOVE YOU! I totally agree notch is being a complete dipsh*t with this. When endearment came, I didn't expect some tall guy with cocks for arms and legs to pull up weeds and flowers from the ground then teleport over and hug me. I expected an aground maniac that would berate fire on you if you so much as looked at him the wrong way. If he removes the block stealing ability, or so much as nerds it, I will stop playing minecraft. Hopefully he makes it harder soon. =)
I think you really should quit Minecraft and stay in school, kid. School teaches you valuable skills, like how to read, so that you can come back here, and read the entire thread.
Endermen are not scary, even with the ability to move blocks. Why do people even bother making the claim that they are?
Because scary is subjective?
Their block picking ability presents absolutely no challenge, whatsoever. It is only annoying. Very, very, annoying.
Yeah, you're right. But I personally like the idea of mobs shaping the world. They just currently aren't great at it. I'll give you an example, one night I was just messing around in my house, when day comes I go out and find a piece of dirt by my door. I laugh, "Oh wow, The Enderman wanted to give me a present!"
Or when walking around I see a floating tree, It's pretty far from where I started in the day, so I yell out, "Enderman!!!"
The point is that they can do little things to make the game more fun, the problem is their effect on old large scale projects and trees, that's honestly only a part of the game. It should be fixed, yes, but it's not the only thing in Minecraft.
All they do is remove blocks and ruin the look of the environment. They just make things extraordinarily ugly. I heard the term Janitorcraft coined somewhere, it is quite catchy, and sums up the Enderman "challenge", rather nicely.
Well, If you think about it, What's wrong with maintenance? It gives you more to do after you built a town than just move to the next one.
They ruin adventure maps, they pick blocks which were set up specifically for the purpose of providing obstacles, traps, rewards, and even triggered events. This usually results in the map being ruined.
Meh, No reason not to just mod them out when playing that, It's not even a core part of the game, there just elaborate builds.
They do not threaten the player, even with the ability to carry blocks. They are easily avoidable.
But they were never suppose to.
No one is suggesting their battle strength be nerfed, far from it. As it stands skeletons are still more dangerous than Enderman and skeletons do not need to have an annoying, gimmicky, griefing secondary ability to be considered as such.
Yeah but, Skeletons are the scariest/hardest mob in the normal world really =/ Them bows are a son of a...
Also people who tend to bring up creepers as "mobs that can destroy blocks" they tend to forget that creepers are not set to blow up spontaneously in large groups for no reason at all. They like all the other mobs are balanced in their interaction with the world and the player, preserving the core foundation of Minecraft and Minecraft survival mode as it has been since the alpha. These pillars, if you will, are creativity above all, supported by challenge, and adventure.
The core foundation of Minecraft? Creativity above all, supported by challenge, and adventure? You're just pushing the way you see the game on others right there.
I understand that you are arguing from the standpoint that the Enderman dislike is from a subjective point only.
However, my argument against the Enderman's block lifting ability concerns it breaking very core game mechanisms. I am in no way pushing for a personal agenda against the enderman.
I notably pointed out redstone and railway tracks that are essentially made unfeasible under current Enderman conditions. They are both very large parts in Minecraft survival and having the Enderman destroy them makes these parts of the game unplayable.
There is an existing bug where in snowy biomes, snowfall will destroy and delete exposed redstone, torches and railway tracks. This is similar to what the Enderman does and it's very clear that Notch does not intend on the random destruction of redstone or tracks unless it is player triggered, which is why he is fixing the snowfall bug and is also why he limits the Enderman's block lifting ability.
There is also the problem of Notch wanting to implement NPC villages into the upcoming update and having them function in some capacity... As villages. However this isn't possible with the Enderman picking those villages apart as soon as they are generated on the map.
I know you are suggesting that modding the Enderman out as a solution, but mods are meant to enhance the Minecraft experience, they are principally not meant to fix broken game mechanics.
I hope you can see where the other side of the discussion is coming from. From a functional point of view.
And who exactly is against buffs in the base stats / AI ? Almost everyone agrees on these points.
You may never know, people on this forum defend the most illogical things. I'm sure they are going to fight to keep the Enderman weak in some capacity.
notch has already promised to change the mob due to player reaction, the community as a whole has well pushed beyond trying to oppose it, you slammed the door on it and made notch rethink how it should work.
I really hope Notch does rethink the Enderman design and continue to develop it post-nerf. It's a positive step forwards and helps integrate it better into the game mechanics.
of course they're still weak, he hasn't done anything to them yet after saying he'd nerf them, that'd be one hell of a party trick though!
Then prepare to see me on the side of the argument to buff the Enderman's other facets in the upcoming updates. I'm sure we'll make a great tag team for pushing forwards for a buff to it's base stats and AI.
2
Oh wait, they are keeping quiet because this update is what we've been asking for and they feel like retards because despite the block lifting nerf, the Enderman has actually been improved to be deadlier. They dodge arrows, never die in sunlight, takes at least 4 hits of the diamond sword to die and teleports instantly out of water.
Please, come and post here so that I can tell you that I TOLD YOU SO.
0
+1 internets to you good sir.
0
Indeed. Minecraft stops being a sandbox game when the player is restricted to only one way of playing the game.
0
I can provide a summary for the No Enderman block removal side:
*The Enderman removes blocks in a haphazard fashion in walls that are never big or wide enough to allow mobs through. That in itself doesn't put the player's survival in any danger. It does however, makes the wall look very ugly, while doing nothing to weaken the defense the wall provides. They take blocks out of trees leaving floating logs. Floating logs and potholes in the landscape does not challenge the player's survival, it just makes the landscape ugly.
*The Enderman has very low HP (dies in 2 hits), does very little amounts of damage, and gets stuck in hallways and doors. How does keeping the block moving ability supposed to make them more dangerous? Their problem is the AI, which needs to be improved and their health and damage buffed instead of keeping a broken random AI for picking up blocks.
*Enderman destroys redstone and railway tracks. It essentially makes 2 very large parts of Minecraft Survival mode, unusable. It's pointless making rails in creative mode when you can fly everywhere anyway, so obviously rails are meant to be for survival mode to link bases. There is an existing bug where in snowy biomes, snowfall will destroy and delete exposed redstone, torches and railway tracks. This is similar to what the Enderman does and it's very clear that Notch does not intend on the random destruction of redstone or tracks unless it is player triggered, which is why he is fixing the snowfall bug and is also why he limits the Enderman's block lifting ability.
*There is also the problem of Notch wanting to implement NPC villages into the upcoming update and having them function in some capacity... As villages. However this isn't possible with the Enderman picking those villages apart as soon as they are generated on the map.
*Endermen forces the player to camp in his base to repair the damage caused by endermen, because leaving the base for any extended periods of time will cause the base to be ruined by the time you get back. Forcing the player to camp in their base to repair stuff goes against the nature of the adventure update where it is supposed to encourage you to go outside to explore and have an adventure.
This is just a summary of the pages and pages of legitimate points raised in this thread. I hope this enlightens you on the main issue and that this isn't merely senseless whining or player preference.
It's not about "I hate the Enderman and they should be nerfed". It's about the fact that their block removing ability conflicts with some very basic core mechanics of the Minecraft game. Their AI needs improving if the block carrying ability were to return. As the AI stands now, it's not feasible to give it the ability to pick up blocks.
0
Those are good ideas. I'm all for giving the Enderman purpose/intelligence for their block lifting abilities.
While I'm against keeping their current 1.8 block lifting abilities, I also want to make sure they don't simply get nerfed without an adequate substitute. Their stats and damage can be increased too.
People tend to think we want the Enderman nerfed permanently, but that is untrue. We really just want them fixed. Much like how the minecart booster was a bug, but was removed and an acceptable substitute of powered rails were added instead. It made more sense aesthetically, and functionally without changing the core aspects of boosting.
1
I think the point Skylinerw was trying to make was that although you play the game differently and uniquely compared to everyone else, your experiences with the Enderman are just not enough to justify keeping it's block lifting ability in the game for the rest of the Minecraft community, simply because they don't play like you do.
0
1
And yet, this is not what 99% of all houses in minecraft are made out of. This is quite easily the most aggravating thing to argue with because you're really just pulling at straws at the vain attempt of trying to be correct at something so small and irrelevant to what everyone else is discussing.
If you are playing Minecraft survival, why would you chose to build a shelter out of collapsible sand? Even if you spawn in the desert, the first thing people would do in that survival situation is to make sandstone.
Making an unstable building and then waiting for the Enderman to take one block away and then declare the mob as 'challenging' makes as much sense as building a wooden house next to a lava pool, then waiting for it to catch fire before declaring lava 'challenging'. It's not the lava or Enderman that destroyed the structure, you deliberately made the situation dangerous for yourself.
Your argument doesn't stand because you are saying that for the tiny minority of people that build their structures out of either gravel and sand, the Enderman is a challenge for them.
In case you didn't realize, the other blocks that are readily available to build with, don't follow gravity and hence, why 99% of most structures built by players, wont collapse if one block is taken away. It may be a challenge to YOU, but you gotta think about how it affects others and the game mechanics as a whole.
But now you are just distracting me away from the main argument. Why do I even bother to address your reply, I must be too naive to think that I can actually reason with someone.
In case you missed my last few posts, let me enlighten you on what the logical problems are:
I am arguing from the point of how the Enderman blocks out certain core mechanics. They are not preferences, they are core game mechanic facts.
0
I'd also like to hear your opinion on what's the point of the adventure update within the Minecraft survival mode, when you're forced to camp in your base repairing stuff all day. Where does the adventure and exploration fit into all of this?
0
What a mature and well thought out rebuttal against the myriad of posts listing out logical flaws of the current system. Do you reply to all discussions like this?
0
I think you really should quit Minecraft and stay in school, kid. School teaches you valuable skills, like how to read, so that you can come back here, and read the entire thread.
0
I understand that you are arguing from the standpoint that the Enderman dislike is from a subjective point only.
However, my argument against the Enderman's block lifting ability concerns it breaking very core game mechanisms. I am in no way pushing for a personal agenda against the enderman.
I notably pointed out redstone and railway tracks that are essentially made unfeasible under current Enderman conditions. They are both very large parts in Minecraft survival and having the Enderman destroy them makes these parts of the game unplayable.
There is an existing bug where in snowy biomes, snowfall will destroy and delete exposed redstone, torches and railway tracks. This is similar to what the Enderman does and it's very clear that Notch does not intend on the random destruction of redstone or tracks unless it is player triggered, which is why he is fixing the snowfall bug and is also why he limits the Enderman's block lifting ability.
There is also the problem of Notch wanting to implement NPC villages into the upcoming update and having them function in some capacity... As villages. However this isn't possible with the Enderman picking those villages apart as soon as they are generated on the map.
I know you are suggesting that modding the Enderman out as a solution, but mods are meant to enhance the Minecraft experience, they are principally not meant to fix broken game mechanics.
I hope you can see where the other side of the discussion is coming from. From a functional point of view.
0
You may never know, people on this forum defend the most illogical things. I'm sure they are going to fight to keep the Enderman weak in some capacity.
0
I really hope Notch does rethink the Enderman design and continue to develop it post-nerf. It's a positive step forwards and helps integrate it better into the game mechanics.
0
Then prepare to see me on the side of the argument to buff the Enderman's other facets in the upcoming updates. I'm sure we'll make a great tag team for pushing forwards for a buff to it's base stats and AI.