Quote from Rampage_x
If they are trying to make a living on something that was never intended to be the case in the first place, all I can say is, I'm sorry.
So, Youtubers and Twitch streamers should not be allowed to make a living from playing Minecraft either? It wasn't intended, but it happened. Second, obviously Mojang had nothing against server owners making a living off of hosting servers and selling perks because they invited said server owners to host a panel which discussed the very same topic (). If that's not official support, I'm not sure what is.
Quote from Rampage_x
If server admins would take the time to think, they might even have to scale down a little, this change could happen with minimum strain.
But all they see is the large profit $$$ signs. Bottom line.
I get my own entertainment from my server, and my friends server, we offer that entertainment free of charge to other players. They bought the game, that is the only charge they need in my opinion. I will also say, that when they request something, more chances then none, they get it, and without a fee.
I don't see any of them as just a number, I see them as "friends".
There is nothing left to discuss between us, because we aren't really getting anywhere, and I don't want things going too far.
I just spoke with a server administrator for one of the large SkyBlock servers (second largest I believe), and was informed that they actually have quite reasonable cost -> benefit ratios for their server. So you're saying despite them being reasonable with their pay for perk system, they should be shut down?
You have servers that you enjoy, awesome! They are free of charge, great! However, what makes you think that just because someone tries to make a living from their server, that they cannot also enjoy the people as well? From what I've seen, many of the large server administrators are VERY involved in their server, running events, talking with other players, playing themselves, etc.
Again, where does all this anger towards people making money come from? You're lashing out against people you've never met without actually understanding them at all. Not everyone is evil, you know.
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So, Youtubers and Twitch streamers should not be allowed to make a living from playing Minecraft either? It wasn't intended, but it happened. Second, obviously Mojang had nothing against server owners making a living off of hosting servers and selling perks because they invited said server owners to host a panel which discussed the very same topic (). If that's not official support, I'm not sure what is.
I just spoke with a server administrator for one of the large SkyBlock servers (second largest I believe), and was informed that they actually have quite reasonable cost -> benefit ratios for their server. So you're saying despite them being reasonable with their pay for perk system, they should be shut down?
You have servers that you enjoy, awesome! They are free of charge, great! However, what makes you think that just because someone tries to make a living from their server, that they cannot also enjoy the people as well? From what I've seen, many of the large server administrators are VERY involved in their server, running events, talking with other players, playing themselves, etc.
Again, where does all this anger towards people making money come from? You're lashing out against people you've never met without actually understanding them at all. Not everyone is evil, you know.
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You do realize that the argument you present here is no better then the other two presented. This is akin to saying because a basketball player hurt someone, we should outlaw basketball. The majority of servers that use pay for perk mechanics aren't out to "cheat" people. They simply provide an option to the player. Are their servers that are out to cheat, sure! However, restricting the entire community because of a couple bad apples (even a hundred servers is small when compared to the millions of servers). This issue I touched on earlier in this thread, which you might have not seen...
This is a parental issue. Those that are two young to be able to rationally understand that they are being cheated, shouldn't be given free rein to be able to do so by their parents. If they are given as such either their parents are in error, or are trying to teach their child a lesson. Regardless, it is hardly a reason to restrict the community as a whole.
I do find the fact that you're actually hostile to people trying to make a living doing something they love. What about servers making a living from offering entertainment to others bothers you so much? I think I covered why I disagree with you quite well, is there anything more to debate between us?
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I only commented on how you presented yourself. If you do not wish to be perceived as such, perhaps you should present yourself in a different manner.
So, you don't play on such servers, and are old enough to not be cheated by unreasonable costs even if you did...why are you for these restrictions?
Sure, everyone has opinions, however, you haven't given a rational explanation as of yet. The only way I could take your previous post was that you were greedy yourself or jealous of those that could afford to pay. Since you've stated that neither of these cases are accurate, could you please explain why you support the restrictions in such a way that it doesn't come off as such?
I've yet to see a solid argument for the restrictions that would actually be beneficial. I agree that a EULA change is needed and that the current proposal is a step in the right direction, but I've yet to see any argument that restricting what a server is allowed to monetize is actually a good thing for the community as a whole.
To be honest, the two primary arguments I have seen for the restrictions is "I hate pay to win, so noone should have it," or "It's Mojang's game." The first argument is pointless as if you don't like pay to win (which I disagree that "win" is always the case, hence me using the phrase "pay for perk"), don't play on such servers. There are millions of servers our that and I'm sure at least a few thousand+ are not pay for perk. The second argument I don't debat, it is Mojang's game. However, that doesn't mean the restrictions are the right thing to do. I'm not about to blindly agree with something that I see only causing harm.
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Honestly, if they stay on the server when they are not enjoying it, they are insane (repeating the same action and expecting different results). You can get to the "end" of Minecraft's tech tree within a day or two (or even a couple hours if you're lucky). Paying for a set of diamond armor is beneficial early on, but kinda becomes moot later. Many people probably are fine with just hunkering down, getting their own items and being able to compete perfectly fine with those that pay.
On the few pay for perk vanilla style servers I have played on in the past, that seemed to be the general opinion. Generally though, I saw more pay for perk features on servers that no longer had pure vanilla gameplay. They generally created classes with special abilities and changed how EXP was used, limited what you could build, etc. These servers sometimes had pay to unlock a class, pay for increased currency/EXP gain, etc. Generally these were reasonably priced and balanced such that they only offered a minor advantage and as there is still a max level, people didn't complain generally that those paying were "better" then those that weren't.
I'm not sure why my experience is so different, perhaps because the servers I played on had people that respected that said server costed quite a bit of money to maintain, and those that bought the perks were essentially paying for everyone else's enjoyment of the game, and in doing so, got a bit of a benefit.
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So, you're a greedy player that wants to get custom content for free. Content that in many cases takes months of the creator's time and effort to create. You somehow deserve said content for free? I'm sorry, but this argument is just silly. You also generalize server owners as if all servers that offer perks for pay are somehow evil and greedy.
If you don't like these kinds of servers, why not you know...not play on them? Just because you don't like it, noone can have it? I don't care for sports, should all sports be made illegal because me and some of my friends don't enjoy them? Nope. I just don't watch them and don't go to their games. You can do the same with Minecraft servers.
This kind of response is exactly where I get my comment previously about people for the changes being jealous, because if people were not jealous of what other people had due to paying, they wouldn't make this kind of argument. If they seriously did not enjoy pay for perk, they'd just go to a server without it. Not demand the because they dislike it, noone should.
The rational approach to such a thing is to leave the server and find a server that you could enjoy more. Not demand that their community, which obviously enjoys said environment (by not leaving), should be shut down just because you disagree.
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Except this won't happen. Do you honestly think servers will just roll over and stop doing what they love because something changed? Will they be impacted, sure, it'll hurt their bottom line and they will be forced to focus on cosmetic perks, pay to play, and similar models. Expect many of the medium to large servers to just require payment to login at all, and then further payment for visual extras/pets.
Honestly, guys, this isn't a good thing. I really wish people would stop blindly accepting "Mojang's will" and actually analyze the situation. All this does is hurt the guys who have spent the past few years creating content for the community. Does it benefit you as a player on a server? Nope. In fact, since gameplay features will likely be pushed back on the development queue in favor of visual effects, pets, etc. in order to keep the server running, it will likely hurt your experience.
If you didn't play on one of the servers that current uses a pay for perk model, then it won't change anything for you likely anyways (unless your server decides that now that its legal, they will start selling things, in which case it still might hurt you). So why be for something that causes harm to a large portion of your fellow Minecraft players and doesn't benefit really any of them?
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Many things are used for things beyond what they are initially created for. Its not like restricting servers stops people from making money off of Minecraft. Youtubers, Twitch streamers, mod authors, map makers, and yes even servers will still make money from Minecraft. All this does is specifically inhibit server owners and require them to use alternative means to fun their servers. Said means will likely lock TONS of players out of servers that they used to play (pay wall), reduce the amount of gameplay content (some servers have already said they would likely have to do this), and in extreme cases cost people their jobs.
As for killing "elitism," are you daft? Elitism in this community will not disappear just because servers are limited. In all honesty, this is more likely to create MORE elitism as servers have already been talking about splitting paying and nonpaying users into separate servers. Which server do you think is going to have more features? Which do you think will get more say in what the server owners work on? That in itself will cause elitist behavior.
Honestly, I've yet to see a good argument from you that actually shows a solid reason as to WHY this would be good for the community. I'm perfectly willing to change my opinion, but as of yet you haven't really given a convincing argument.
I'm honestly not sure what point this was supposed to give. O.o; Clarify?
I'm mearly pointing out that I'm arguing against the restrictions despite not being either a server host or a player on such server, pointing out that it impacts more then just servers themselves. Care to actually offer an opinion as to how the restrictions are good/bad, instead?
Edit:
I'm not ignoring legalities, I'm arguing that Mojang is making the wrong move. That by actually restricting what servers can do, it will do more harm then good. You're the one blindly following Mojang just because they have a legal right. I don't disagree with that specific point. Mojang does "have the right," but it doesn't mean they are not making a mistake and if we all blindly followed what we were told to do, without questioning anything, we wouldn't be where we are today.
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Honestly, GoldK, what does it matter to you? You don't want to play on a server where money can equal power, we get that. Why should noone be allowed to? If that happens to be an environment a chunk of the community prefers, who are you to say it is wrong? Them playing that way doesn't hurt you at all.
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I stand by one of my earlier statements in that those that are against pay for perk features are jealous of those that were able to pay for such features, because all I hear is complaints against said feature without any actual good reasons as to why. It's a crude way to look at it, but honestly they dodge any direct request for a reason, so what else am I to think?
However, I can actually explain multiple reasons as to why it is BAD for the community. It could potentially (and according to one large server that has posted, may actually) cause people to lose their jobs (which could potentially make people/families homeless), it could inhibit the gameplay of such servers as they are forced to use alternative means for income beyond gameplay features. It actually directly stifles creation by limiting what you're allowed to make (no capes). It creates a bad impression that Mojang will take away from the community at any time for any reason without negotiation. I've got plenty of reasons its NOT good for the community. I cannot really find one reason its good.
One thing I'd like to keep mind for those that reply to me, I don't play on large servers. I design mod content and art. I'm the original creator of the Ender Storage mod, I occasionally twitch stream and I've been contributing my other ideas to various other mods over the years (be it art or gameplay concepts). I don't actually lose much myself by these restrictions, but I am still speaking against them. I also am acting and not just speaking by actually moving my content creation to a open source platform (http://minetest.net) which will give me the ability to make content and have rights over said content.
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You didn't actually read what I posted or you continued to choose to ignore it.
I specifically asked HOW it is good for the community. All you've explained is that Mojang has the right, which I don't believe ANY of us disagree with. They own the game, of course they have the right to choose how its used. I cannot trust Mojang when they do something as hap-hazzard as change something a large portion of the community relies on, without actually creating any kind of discussion with the community first.
If you're going to continue to quote me and respond to my posts, would you please at least answer the question I asked, rather then continue to repeat the same thing over and over?
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Sure, its Mojang's game and their right and I do respect that. My choice in the matter was to move my content creation to an open source engine instead of supporting Mojang in that way any longer. However, that doesn't mean I think its a good or right move by Mojang to do this. It really does hurt the community without actually benefiting anyone.
Can someone that is for the change please explain why its a good thing without just repeating the same kind of "Its Mojang's right" or "I had pay to win" excuses that have been made. I get that it's Mojang's game, but it doesn't mean Mojang couldn't be making a mistake. I also understand that people might not enjoy a pay to win environment, but they have thousands (or more) alternative servers they could join, this point is essentially moot (just because you don't enjoy it, doesn't mean noone should be able to).
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Except this doesn't work. If a new player starts on an establish hardcore server where the server owner has modified the tech tree to make better materials way harder to acquire overall, the new user will still be discouraged as many established players will have things he/she does not and cannot acquire for a long time. The limitation on selling only makes this worse by not allowing the new user to pay to catch up quicker.
Another thing is that in order to have mega-servers, no selling perks is likely to harm the ability of a server to keep up with costs. They will end up downgrading their features to cope, laying people off, etc. Its honestly not a positive thing. In the end, if you don't like a server, you really shouldn't play on it. There are tons of alternatives.
I agree that its a step in the right direction in that it makes it legal to do some things which were illegal (technically, but not practically) before the change. However, its not enough. The limitations on what people are allowed to do only hurt the community. As for the prices a server charge...what you find reasonable may differ from someone else. That's the beauty of their being so many servers. If you don't like the features/prices of one, you can always choose another (or make your own).
All in all, this isn't a good reason to restrict server owners either...as its your opinion vs. the server community. Obviously the server community doesn't hate things as they are or the big servers wouldn't be big.
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Again you use something that is an obvious injustice to people (and did affect many people negatively) to justify something that affects noone negatively (at least that's what I get from the arguments I've read and your constant ignoring of my direct questioning). This doesn't really work.
Its not even a parallel as server owners are not suppressing anyone, the aren't subjugating people and making them do stuff against their will. People choose, willingly, to join a server and accept the environment of said server. Mojang isn't stopping server owners from enslaving people, its damaging a willing, cooperative, community. This is more akin to the government getting together and outlawing baseball, just because they didn't like it. People would be upset and rightly so.
You also seem to not understand that you are indeed insulting people, by saying that a civil discussion is somehow "throwing a tantrum." I don't believe that I have as of yet stated anything in an irrational way. I've simply been trying to get someone to explain how Mojang limiting servers ACTUALLY BENEFITS the community. So far, people ignore that question (including yourself) and just claim "because Mojang has the right" or some such. The government technically has the right to outlaw baseball, but it wouldn't be right for them to do so.
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So, you are not personally impacted AT ALL by servers staying pay for perk. You have just essentially explained my point.
That said, why do you even care if someone makes a living off of running a Minecraft server? Clearly it doesn't affect you in either a positive or negative fashion. In fact, I haven't really heard ANY arguments from anyone supporting Mojang's decision that has really explained how its a bad thing for people to make a living doing something they love. Are you jealous? I mean, I honestly cannot think of any other reason you would sit here and bash the people who are legitimately affected by this change when you're not.
Please explain...
Minecraft was also never intended initially to have pistons, someone from the community created them and Mojang implemented them into the base game. The community created that feature. Same goes for Ender Chests and Horses. So because Minecraft was never intended to have them initially, they shouldn't exist?
The community drives this game. Some of the most popular servers in the Minecraft community have created some of the most popular additions to the game (MineZ to name one). Many things were never thought about initially, but they happened and for the better. These servers create jobs, create entertainment, create new content that may find its way into the base game or realms, etc.
I'll post the same question to you as I did to the other user I quoted...How does restricting servers benefit you personally? You've always had the option to play, it doesn't take anything away from you. It doesn't benefit you either as many of those popular servers will just end up reducing the gameplay options to cope with the reduced income. In fact, if you play on one of those servers, its likely to hurt you.
Honestly, people keep agreeing with Mojang, seemingly without thinking. They just think "I don't like pay to win" without actually understanding how servers work, how they can make their own server, how they can join one of the thousand (or more) other servers that DON'T offer payed perks, etc. This doesn't benefit you all, this just hurts the community.