Minecraft Forums

No, apples were removed a while back. Only golden apples were retrievable. The only legit way to get an apple was by killing Notch in SMP.

When they came back, I don't know.

Quote from Duke of Lard

tl;dr, but I can tell that you're mad because your block game just isn't going the exact way you want it to. Can't stand it anymore? Don't play it.

Duke of Lard, most of yours posts are insults. My original post had attitude, but it is nowhere as disrespectful as you. Get out of my thread.

And if you intend to stay, which your type usually does, you didn't read the thread, as you said. Maybe you might want to, you know, do that? Because what you're insinuating is Minecraft changed and I didn't like it. I'm actually happy with Minecraft. What I'm annoyed about is the fact that their slow work suddenly sped up at 1.9. Had they kept a fast pace beforehand, we would have had more content.

You're a fanboy. As the last sentence of my post predicted. I had criticism to give, and you came to Notch's defense. Typical.

Quote from Inde97

It was implied. The OP is begging and stamping his foot for something to change, like a little child. It is not late in the game's development. Minecraft will be worked on long after its development. Apparently, a few boneheads think that the full release means the end of development. After release, nothing will have changed, other than the version title. The sooner you learn that and others stop sounding the war horns, the better.

No, it wasn't implied. In fact, immediately following that statement, I made a comparison to my writing, and how I would strive for perfection. What was implied was that a harder work ethic should be applied to things that one cares about. Notch could have done a far better job than he has done.

And again, you resort to calling me a child when I did not act like one. I used harsh language, as in curses, but that doesn't mean I'm a child. I had a little frustraton, but that was all.

You're a fanboy. Please leave.

Quote from BC_Programming

problem: the time between 1.7.3 and 1.8 was a hell of a long longer than the time between previous versions. 1.9 isn't even released on the normal update channel.

I'll look at this in a bit.

Not really. how long has it been since 1.8 was released? Quite some time. That was the last "real" released update. 1.9 isn't finished and the prereleases are just to whet appetites. Subject to change and all that.

Who cares if it was a prerelease or not? Each release is still content that's been worked on. 1.9 is content rich, where as other updates in the past are kind of lacking. Which I'll get into shortly.

You come to this conclusion under false pretenses. First, you ignore the fact that the release time difference between the versions prior to the adventure update were a hell of a lot closer together.

Ignoring 1.7, because it was just a "tideover" release so they could give everybody pistons, 1.6.6 was released on May 31, 2011; 1.8 was released (I use "release" to mean plopped into the update channel so minecraft detects an update) on September 14th; that's nearly three months. The updates previous to that were generally a matter of weeks, or even days. Usually adding one or two significant features (ladders, doors, trapdoors, etc). 1.8 added a good 25% more blocks, made changes to biomes, added new underground structures, etc. Sure, we all "expected more" but that's the price of anticipation. But you don't see this. You just assume that the updates are perfectly linear on a timescale, and then see "Oh! the difference between the newer versions are a lot more than previous versions" and construct an argument around that, completely ignoring the fact that the time between those releases is significantly higher than the previous versions that you think should have more content.

I actually want you to focus on 1.9 mostly, because 1.8 did take forever. That was a mistake on my part.

But after going through the version history, I made this timeline. It's not exact, and it ignores bug fixes, but here it is:

1.3 February 22
little over a month passes
1.4 March 31
nineteen days passes
1.5 April 19
little over a month passes
1.6 May 26
little over a month passes
1.7 July 8
two months about pass
1.8 September 14
8 days pass
1.9pre1 Sep22
7 days pass
1.9pre2 Sep29
8 days pass
1.9pre3 Oct6
7 days pass
1.9pre4 Oct13
14 days pass
1.9pre5 Oct27

This can be viewed many different ways. There's a huge problem. I mean, what features in the game were hard to code and what weren't? When were they actually being worked on? There's a lot of uncertainty. But what I do feel is that 1.9 has tons of content done in a months time. Look at the gap between 1.3 and 1.4.

I won't say that I'm perfectly correct. But I will stand behind my feeling that 1.9 is streamlining tons of content at a faster pace than was done in the past. I mean, an entire new realm, tons of items, five new mobs, many little tweaks, enchanting system, potion system, etc. When I heard that 1.9 came out, only days after 1.8, my jaw dropped. Especially when more and more content poured out. Am I the only one who felt shocked by the drop after drop of awesome content?

I don't know. if somebody takes their subjective opinion and calls it an objective viewpoint, are they idiots?

And you were doing so well not insulting me. :/

And yet, over the last hundreds of so years where humans have had the concept of a game, very few of them meet with the idea of utter freedom. Actually I can't really think of very many that do. It doesn't necessarily take a good coder (it takes a decent one, you've got to understand OpenGL material IDs and projection and transform matrices and all that crazy math ****), but it does take imagination and creativity, because if it didn't, we would have already had something like it. Sure, there are some "like" it, but they have limitations. The closest I can think of would probably be Dwarf Fortress, but that doesn't really have public appeal because of it being somewhat confusing.

And yet as soon as I came to Minecraft, I thought, "Finally." I'm not going to say I had the idea for Minecraft, or something similar, because that would be absurd, and there's no way to prove or disprove it, but honestly, I've been waiting for a game like Minecraft for a long time. Something with freedom to the extent that it [this game] provides. It boggles my mind that it took so long for a game like Minecraft to arrive. :/ And honestly, the thing is, this idea has had to been thought of before. I don't have a link, but I do remember an article on Minecraft. I think it said something to the extent that people were bewildered by Minecraft's success, because unlike many other modern games, it doesn't have a goal. It's just pure creation.

To me, that was stupid. I've always thought that people strived for freedom. It's no surprise to me at all that Minecraft is hugely popular.

But my point in bringing this up is that people kiss Notch's feet for making this game. Not only was he inspired by Infiniminer, but once he had this concept, it was already an amazing game. Just because the game is amazing doesn't mean Notch should stop there.

So you complain about some balance issues in the as of yet unreleased 1.9 and think it's a fair argument?

This is basically the beta argument. We'll just have to wait and see.

Slave to who? the people who paid 15-20 euros a single time for the game? Besides, we don't know exactly how much time he spends working on the game, nor for Jeb, so any bitching as to work ethic is based on pure speculation and thus meaningless.

That was simply a phrase. I'm not saying Notch is my *****. I'm merely saying that if I were Notch, I would have worked far harder, because my creations (my writing) are important to me. By using slave, I was using a hyperbole to emphasize work, not the relationship of Notch to myself, as so many of you assume.

What it "should" be of course being your own subjective opinion. Presenting your subjective opinion on something and declaring it objective doesn't make it so.

No, it's not subjective. "Should" refers to what it would be had Notch done more work. Not about features or what not that I think "should" be in it. That's an entirely different issue that this thread isn't meant to address.

half the features being added now were planned a year ago.

So? The other half, not planned. Also, what about the things that were planned, but were decided against? I'm not going to argue this point, because I'm not about to go through twitter and cite the many times that Notch suddenly had a brain wave about something that was really awesome and really cool and then...suddenly dropped, or random things that barely had any relevance to the game. Furthermore, how do you know just what things were planned and weren't? Where the hell did the Ender come from, anyway? Also, what about slimeballs? A prime example of a random feature that almost didn't have a use. You can't deny that Notch is kind of doing whatever. He's had ideas, but I don't think they've ever been a part of a concrete, cohesive whole. For example, we had NPCs and dragons planned since the beginning, but take a look at the smaller features as well. Notch definitely knew that basic idea of the features he would have, but as for everything else, I don't see a game design that was planned.

Gotta love when somebody comes up with a novel concept, and then somebody has the gall to look back, in ****ing hindsight and say it's obvious. Well Of course it's obvious! in hindsight. A lot of game ideas are obvious. in hindsight. They become "obvious" because they fit so well into the current concept of gaming. Before they are discovered/thought of, they aren't obvious, because if they were obvious, they would have been thought up already. Trying to discredit somebody's idea by saying "it was obvious" particularly in hindsight is just being an envious dickhole.

Envious dickhole? Wow. You were doing so well. :/

Discredit? Sorry, bud, but Infiniminer is very much like Minecraft. I'm not saying Notch has a clone, but the concept was not his. It was the Infiniminer creator's. My point, which you seemed to miss, was intended to combat those who would say, "This game is already awesome, **** off!" The reason it's awesome is because it employs the very basic concept of freedom. Destruction and creation of everything around you. To me, this is obvious. I've always wanted a game like this. Did I think of doing it by making a block world? Of course not. I never sat down and tried to design a game. But if I did, I would realize that there was no way of making a completely realistic, virtual world, because there was no way a computer would be able to calculate, for example, the chips of a door coming off, or digging little handfuls of dirt out of the ground. But you know what a computer CAN handle?

A block world. We don't have access to computers that can process at a level of mere inches. But we can in meters. That's far more feasible.

Which is why I say it's obvious.

Let me show you the very easy steps of logic that it takes to come up with the concept of Minecraft.

1. I want a game world that gives tons of freedom to the player: no invisible walls, breaking and destroying, etc.
2. There's no way to process the millions and millions of molecules and make a Matrix-like world, and even down to the inches, that's asking a lot...
3. I guess we'll have to use a far bigger proportion. Like feet or meters... That's feasible.
4. It would have to be a blocky world, or at least really unrealistic (as far as appearance).
5. I guess we'll just make it a block world and justify it by turning it into a style (square everything).


See? Not hard. Then again, I guess it wasn't obvious. Just to me then? I'm not going to say I already thought of a block world. That's stupid. But I will say that ending up with the idea isn't so far-fetched.

But the main point I was trying to make was that the game is amazing simply because of it's concept. Just because it's already fantastic doesn't mean it shouldn't be embellished.

In summary I think people complaining about features need to get a ****ing hobby. I also think people that seem to think Notch knows exactly what he is doing and is a programming god need to find a new idol. He's OK, but it was about the time I saw a magazine put him on the Same level as John Carmack that I came to the realization that something is really ****ed up there. I play the game. there might be a few things I have issues with, but I don't give a ****, I just play the game. I also have problems with a few features in games like Super Mario World but you don't see me sending angry letters to Nintendo about their "poor design decisions -Signed, a writer who knows more than you". When you enter a topic with the mistaken belief that you are right and everybody who disagrees with you is wrong, you lose. The best way to do that is the way you did, and present a few subjective 'facts' and declare them completely objective through passive aggressive manipulation of weasel words. Good work if that was what you were after though.

More insults. Wow, you're on the same level as those first two.

Complaining about features? Once again, you missed the point. My main beef is that 1.9 is shitting tons of content. How come we couldn't get tons of content before hand? Sending angry letters? You're twisting me into some moron, like the one who sent that letter to Notch. Honestly, my language was angry, but I usually curse a lot, so that may have come across as angry. But I'm not angry. I'm annoyed. I set out to show the community how I felt.

Declare them objective? Several times, I used the word "feel". What's more, I conceded several times that features I thought as poor in design were arbitrary at best in whether they were poor or not. Subjective? ********. ****ing read.

The only thing I will stand behind is that 1.9 is a **** storm of awesome content. This degree of content could have been present earlier in development. That is the only thing I think I'm right about. And you have the gall to call my **** subjective? **** off. That is the ONLY thing I'm standing behind. The rest of it was not passed off as objective.

If I find a issue with the game, either it's a design decision (in which case I might disagree with it, but I'm, again, not going to go on a frothing rant about how terrible it is or how they aren't working as hard as they used to and other nonsense) I'll work with it. incorporate it into what I'm already used to. Take hunger for example, while everybody was bitching about how terrible it was, I was playing the game and getting used to the mechanic and how it changes how I play the game. the people who complain about new features aren't complaining about the new features, they are complaining about how they have to change their gameplay style; and they refuse to, so they have problems, and rather then go "ok, I can't do it that way anymore" and change it, they ***** on the forum about how terrible and badly balanced the new feature/change is.

This is great and all but does not pertain to me. I did the exact same thing with enchantments. I thought they were terrible, but I'm looking forward to using them now.

So...you're saying that whatever Notch adds, you'll just accept it? There's no such thing as a feature that actually, genuinely sucks?

When that happens, people will complain. As they should. The problem is deciding when people are just bitching, and when people are giving a real criticism. So who are you to decide which features are okay and which are not? Who are you to decide which people are bitching children and those who have a solid criticism?

Quote from sunperp

There are lots of people on this forum who accept that Minecraft is a work-in-progress, who understand that there are flaws in the game, and who are willing to accept that Mojang is going to work at whatever pace they want to work at, on the items they choose to work on, regardless of what anyone else demands. This doesn't make these forum members "fanboys" -- it shows that they are mature enough to look at the whole picture and understand that the updates that Notch is giving out, he is giving out for free, as a gift. He didn't have to write the purchase agreement the way he did. He could have acted exactly like lots of other game companies and offer to sell the updates as DLCs. Why do I choose not to whine and complain when I see issues with an update? Because I know that I can always go back to that one copy that I purchased (Minecraft Alpha 1.2) and play that. I choose not to whine about something I am getting for free.

It's not as simple as going back to a past update, bud. And once again, you're all focusing on my mention of features and not focusing on the main point, which is that the Mojang team has tons of content coming for 1.9 in a short time, and did not in the past. Had they, we might be using functional NPCs and the Ender right now. Plus, maybe, more content.

I'm merely upset because they're rushing before the deadline. Had they put more work into the past, we would be seeing completed features and a very wholesome game. Instead, bits and pieces, like NCPs, are rough and unpolished. It's very messy, and to me, unprofessional. I only hope that the full release takes out those unfinished features so the game doesn't look half-assed. It's not beta, anymore, after all. It's a real, finished game. Expansion pack-esque additions excluded.

Quote from Psillycyber

I think the reason people whine isn't because they hate the game. It's because they want the best for the game. It's because the game is SO CLOSE to being something magnificent--polished, bug-free, and heavenly to play. Right now it's a great game, but not yet a masterpiece.

This has nothing to do with "getting our money's worth." We've already gotten our money's worth. I suppose it's more of an OCD thing. When you see a game with so much potential, that is so close to being a polished masterpiece, but yet at the same time so far away, and when you start to lose hope that it will ever become polished and live up to its potential...then it starts to get depressing and irritating.

That's a huge part of it. But what is good for the game isn't clear. It's debatable, and that's where the flame war starts.

I wanted to address some of the things that have been bothering me with Mojang, but more importantly, to explain my side of the war to the community.

This isn't about the fantasy elements that have been added to the game, such as potions and enchantments, or crazy-ass mushroom biomes. This is about the level of work that Mojang has put into the game.

I don't know about those who would side with me, but my problem is this.

In the past, we'd get these little updates. Look at 1.3 and 1.4. Look at the extent of their affect on the game. Especially 1.4. Now look at 1.8 and 1.9.

Basically, this: PROCRASTINATION.

They're suddenly busting their balls to finish the game, like a kid on a school paper the night before. The quality suffers because of it. I'm not talking about bugs. Bugs are understandable. Whatever. They get fixed. But how come this level of work wasn't present before? They should have a **** TON more content finished and completed for release. In my opinion, this is ridiculously unprofessional.

NPCs that walk around like retards. Swamps with terribly ugly borders. Mineshafts and stronghold material floating in ravines...etc. And then there's a long list with admittedly more arbitrary features. For example, is enchanting really that **** of a system because of it being random? Do netherwarts compliment gameplay (forcing the player to afk or work in a close proximity in the limited Nether in order to grow the damn things)? Snowmen? Does repairing need work? Are wolves so stupid they need more work on their AI? Mushroom soup is so damn obsolete because it doesn't stack, so why do we have an entire ****ing biome dedicated to it, as well as a cow that contributes only ONE of the TWO mushrooms needed for the damn soup? Are resources too abundant (hint: yes)? Could boat control be tremendously improved?

Honestly, we could sit here for hours coming up with debatable features. Even at a meta level, small features have profound effects. (And btw, there's a difference between a feature that people simply don't like because of opinion, and then features that are genuinely a problem, even if for only half the community. For example, if boat control really is ****, but half of you have a high tolerance for **** features, does that mean the rest of us should suffer? So think very carefully, for a minute, about what features genuinely need to be fixed and the features that are a matter simply of preference — for example, fantasy features).

My point is, I'm seeing way too many blatant errors with this game.

"This game is amazing. stfu."

Yes, this game is amazing. But do you know why? The reason why Minecraft is amazing is because you can create and destroy the entire map. It's pure freedom. But it doesn't take a toddler to come up with the concept, nor a decent coder. I won't make any claims as to my knowledge of how easy it is to code a game like Minecraft, but as far as the creativity and intelligence it takes to know that people love freedom and to come up with the mere concept? It doesn't take much.

As soon as we could place or create a block in this game, it was golden. But should Notch stop there? Why the **** would you shoot for the stars and then stop there? This is a job. And Notch is a creator. He should be working on this game like a slave. Especially since it's his baby. As a writer, I strive to perfect the chapters of my novels. Why the hell would you work on something that could easily be taken to a level of perfection and then stop at a B grade level?

I'm not saying the game is ****: but it is in comparison to what it should be.

Am I the only one who feels like Notch has no plan whatsoever?

I hope Notch removes all incomplete features for the full release, like NPCs, for the purpose of the game looking professional. I hope that he releases small expansion packs. Like the NPC pack. And the Ocean pack. Possibly with new mobs. Maybe some more bosses. Even if they cost a little money, even though things like NPCs should already be finished. As long as it's done professionally.

So, I thank Notch, for finally creating such an awesome game, when, somehow, the very obvious concept flew over the heads of just about everyone else. And I thank the creator of Infiniminer, for inspiring the Swede. The manner in which the game has been completed in really bothers me, and a lot of the features irk me, but through and through, the rest of the game more than makes up for it.




And to all of you who are getting pissy at us "haters," we're not haters. We're not criticizing the game simply because we're hateful bastards. This game has legit faults. All things have faults. But we feel this game has very blatant faults that, if with a more competent designer, would not be present.

All in all:

The game should be better. We're not asking for unreasonable levels of quality like you claim. So let me criticize you on behalf of us "haters":

You're fanboys. We love this game. But not so much that we're blind dumbasses who accept just about everything Notch does. We recognize that the things we love have faults. And we get bent out of shape because we DO love Minecraft. And for those of you that AREN'T fanboys, you either have a high tolerance for gameplay faults, or you just don't care as much as we do. It's as simple as that.

(I might also mention that this isn't about opinion. There's a difference in saying, "I don't like potions and magic and dragons!" and, "I think these are legit game design faults that are blatantly obvious, and if improved, would have profound, positive feedback. It pisses me off that Notch can't see that." It's definitely debatable, but I think that, once a debate is pitted, you'll find that some features of this game are actually out of place and more detrimental than beneficial.)

Despite my best appeals to logic, this is the internet. Hearken to me, illogical fanboys, real-haters, and other fun internet people.

If you're swimming up water blocks that touch a wall of a solid block, it's really slow. This is because there's technically a current flowing downward. But if the water you're swimming up is surrounded on all four sides by other water, there's no current.

But what you're describing, I have no idea. O_o I'll take a look for myself soon.

Before someone bitches, I love Minecraft. But the level of completion this game is seeing is ****ing poor. And I can't wait for the Beta argument to **** off. There is so much **** this game should have right now that it doesn't.

Minecraft will not and should not have a storyline. However, I do think a little mythology would be interesting.

I think he's done a poor job. And this beta excuse is ********. Because when this game has finally been released, it won't be as good as it should be. Because Notch fell behind.

lol Just when I come back, the server has a problem. haha I'll keep checking to see what's up. :smile.gif:

Part of the fun was the feeling that an immense library of recipes was out there, nearly endless. The game felt so open and infinite. I really loved that about Minecraft in the beginning.

Personally, I don't like it. At all. I hate randomness. I prefer control.

Amazing find, man.

Um, since when can you make infinite lava...? o.o nvm ^^;

It's incredible for me.

I guess that's fine. Just send me a message with the link or something.