Minecraft Forums

How nice. I've suddenly had a complete loss of activity on all my threads. I wonder why.

GG Twitch. Ruined yet another good thing.

I wasn't quite as angry about this as everyone else when reading it, but now I'm furious to see it's effectively killing about half of the community.

I once considered twitch, now I absolutely hate it. If you think this is a smart business move to get more people on either Twitch or Minecraftforum, then you are gravely mistaken. Gravely mistaken beyond belief.

Quote from Mastermined»

Well, too bad. I don't like Twitch. The fact I have to deal with it existing alongside Minecraft Forums is no problem. But I'm not gonna create a separate account I am never gonna use anyways just to continue posting here.
Sorry for disappointing you, I guess.

I'm absolutely disgusted by this change too...... but I hope you stay regardless. It's not that hard to create a new twitch account. Hopefully you can change email address seperately for mc forums and twitch, I don't want their stupid advertisements lol

Quote from Ouatcheur»

-snip-
So please get the ostritch head of your public reflexions out of the sandy hole of your personal misconceptions. I'll try to do the same. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Btw your mod looks totally radical, nice work.

Yes I admit that I had medium misconceptions regarding the amount time. More like a month than week. Something I will continue to hold is that Magma Block wasn't much harder than a normal block though, since extending a class to add new basic functionality is easy if the base class already has most of the functionality for what you need, such as the base method for when the player collides with it. All they had to do was set the player on fire when colliding with it. in the method inherited from the parent class. I will still stand my ground for that argument that it was just as easy as a normal block.Though I'm not blaming Mojang, they do way more work than most companies at this stage in the game, respect them for that.

Also thanks, glad you like my mod =)

Quote from The_Real_Spirit_Guardian»

I have yet to work with Ruby.

Don't forget that sometimes you have to hard code features in to figure out what is wrong, then code them in modularly after the problems have been resolved. In terms of the Auto jump, you were right on your first assessment; beyond needing to place the code in the right location, adding the auto jump would have been relatively easier than coding in a polar bear.

Adding the polar bear requires the addition of sound/texture references, localization (since they have plenty of languages it needs to be translated to and the new subtitle system for the deaf/hard of hearing), animations, adjusted AI so they don't act too similarly to other animals in the game, and a few other things I am probably forgetting (but I think I made my point).

I think what took them the most time was figuring out what to add, finding/fixing bugs, and making/adding the new resources (sounds/textures/etc). Those dang bugs can hide anywhere, even in lines of code that seem to work correctly.

I would like to apologize for making assumptions, since that is a sort of "coder sin". It is terribly bad to make assumptions within your code, and within life, since that is where a lot of bugs and problems will pop up.

The only exception for script kiddies I give are people who are just starting off and use it as a base to start coding, since that mod maker thing seems to be able to also add in custom code (or it could about 2 years ago, not sure about now).

It is true that all these bug fixes could have taken them much longer than a week, a week is probably if everything went perfectly smooth, I would say from 3 weeks to a month is much more likely though considering things usually don't go perfectly smooth. There are bugs that have taken me a whole day to fix, so it's not beyond belief. A few months however fits along the line with the fact that all game devs don't spend as much time a day working the longer the game has been out. A week is definitely an exaggeration on my part now that I think about it a bit more, should have given it a bit more thought.

I accept your apology, though I have no reason to be offended for you making assumptions, it's something that everyone does in their life.

I do think people who are just starting off is an exception to use programs that do it for you to start coding, but only the ones where you drag and drop code. I don't think you can really learn much from a program that generates everything for you, drag and dropping code is probably the best way for the basics. Not to mention the fact that drag in drop coding is made to teach people coding.

Quote from The_Real_Spirit_Guardian»

I don't believe you. I have not modded for minecraft, but I work as a software engineer and I can tell you that it takes more than one line of code; unless you ignore all whitespace and collapse the code to individual lines for each change.

You do not have legal access to the source code of minecraft, but if you had half a brain you would be able to tell that it is a couple thousand lines of code split up into several files. Minecraft is more complex than any mod, even The Aether mod since it is working off of minecraft as a base. To assume that some of these changes only take a few minutes to a few hours is ridiculous.

Do not compare game development to Mod development. A mod I would like to point out that uses only vanilla features to work is the Herocraft Mod, which is hosted on a server (go to hc.to for more info). The Herocraft mod has RPG elements such as custom classes, useable skills, bosses, dungeons, and items without requiring users to download any mods.

The reason I point out this mod is because it is using primarily only vanilla resources and functions, and everything is handled server side without players needing to make any modifications to their game.

Not only did you understate the number of lines of code needed, you also understated the number of hours needed. You cant just have an idea and add it in that instant, you have to plan how to implement it in order to reduce the number of bugs created.

They first have to figure out what to add, then they have to decide how they will implement it, and after they have decided how to implement it they begin the test phase (snapshots) to see if it works; during the test phase they will refine the features and remove any bugs they found.

If you honestly think it is that easy to program a game, even just adding features you think should be easy to add, then I will never get any mod you "make"; because you obviously don't plan what you are adding and any mod you have will be rife with bugs and missing features. I bet your "mod making" consists of that script kiddie "minecraft mod maker" thing that does everything for you. Tools can only go so far.

Of course I'm not comparing game development to modding. One feature I may have not thought through thoroughly is the auto jump, that definitely took planning in order to reduce bugs since it adds a new way in which the game works. A basic block that doesn't change how the game works however, takes such a minuscule amount of time due to it basically being a template. I have worked with many programming languages including Ruby, C#, JS, and ovbiously Java. Not going to count irrelevant langauges to this situation of course, such as HTML.
In each of these languages, once you have a base class, you will create instances of it. If you want more functionality than the base class has, you will have to make a new class that extends it, which will be a bit more work depending on the extra functionality, but likely won't affect other parts of the program since it is in a new class. If you want and object that is the same as the base class, you make in instance of it rather than a new class. Making an instance of a new class only takes one line, disregarding white space. In the Minecraft src, they set the block hardness, resource location, and all that on the same line as registering it, such as new BlockSomething().setHardness(random number), and so on. Ovbiously they probably have whitespace and a different name for their methods, but after decompiling it removes whitespace and everything is named func_somenumberhere so my example is likely a bit different than theirs.

About the last part of your message, you are gravely mistaken. Next time, you should look into what a person has made before making assumptions. Otherwise if I didn't change my mind about it, I could have made you look really stupid. I originally did, and ran back home to edit because I realized it was wrong to do so.

Click Here to see my most popular mod. Just take a look at some of the screenshots and you will see evidence everywhere that it is not made with a modmaker. Crouching and proning should be enough to convince you though.

EDIT 2:

P.S. I actually strongly despise kiddie "minecraft mod makers" since from my opinion, they insult me as a programmer. You didn't insult me, actually I really enjoyed your message, just letting you know where I stand on things like MCreator.

Quote from Byeforever2»

Thank you.. ^_^^_^

You are very welcome =)

Quote from Byeforever2»

Wow...

At the end, I'm a little shocked.

I thought Jeb was a really hard-working developer for Minecraft: Ocean Monument, Elytra, Shulker, End City, Woodland Mansion, etc. Personally, I would not like to get lazy and not be as productive. And one of my reasons comes from consumers's reactions, including what I've read at this very moment.

But, if I ever become a rich game developer, like Mr. Jeb, should I even bother if people are saying I'm not working hard enough??

Considering the game has been out for years, he is wayy more hard working than most other game devs would be after the same period of time. He does deserve respect for that, my main point is that 1.10 was only a lot in terms of quanity, not extensive features, which a lot of people seem to not really realize.

Whether you bother should be based on the enjoyment you are getting out of it. If you do ever become a rich game developer, and still want to be productive but don't want to really work on a certain game of yours, the best thing in my opinion is starting a new project, while still giving the other it's needed support for bugs and the like. Or if you have a trusted friend that would take your game in the right direction, a fresh developer on the game is excited to work on new content and will take great enjoyment out of it.

That's my advice to you on what I would do, and likely will do once I release a game of my own =)

Quote from xRagan»

You still haven't explained to me what you think Jeb is doing with his time, considering he's used months to code something that you're essentially claiming that you could do in a day.

If fact, maybe you should make your own games, because not a single indie developer out there seems to be capable of adding content at the rate that you're talking about here.

Also, as a programmer I assume you're familiar with searching and sorting of data structures? So I find it's peculiar that you, of all people would say that "if the array is too small, you just increase the array". If you increase an array size, then every search through that array is going to be slower, because there's more to search through.

Anyways, this is getting off topic, so I'm gonna let you have the final word. Peace.

Well he's rich, probably spends quite a bit of time on vacations and stuff like that. Probably spent an actual week's worth of time fixing bugs and adding content, the content taking up a very minuscule amount of that.

Again, you are looking at the amount of stuff added rather than the intricacy. If he added 4 new boss mobs with features as extensive as the Ender Dragon, that would be different. This is 4 or so blocks, only one with an extra feature. Not to mention for other games it's usually not 16x16 textures for pieces of the environment.

That is true that every search through the array would be slower, but 4 more blocks would not be noticeable in any way. Now if they were adding 100 more blocks, I would understand them finding another method. In this particular situation however, increasing the array is the proper solution. I guess I sounded like I would do that in any situation, should have made myself more clear =P

You are right though, it's time to end this debate. Was nice talking with you really, not everyone is as calm in a debate =)

Quote from xRagan»

And in your modding experience, why do you suppose Jeb spent months on this?

I always find it amusing how modders, who only needs to write code at the highest level in an already highly functional environment that has been spoonfed to them by the actual programmers who go down and dirty with the actual source code, sit and lecture programmers in how programming is done.

It's not always that simple. When you write only 1 line of code, that assumes something about the source code that takes that line of code. What if a given block doesn't fit inside an array? Or whatever else that may be the case for new content.

Also, afaik each block texture has been hardcoded into the game, for efficiency. So it's not just 1 line of code. Secondly, the Magma block has game logic attached to it. That's additional lines of code.

I have seen the actual source code. It's a bit different than what I use to add things of course, since it's lower level. But any smart programmer will make it so that they simply have to write one line to add a new block, and that's what they do in the original source. When they create a new block, the constructor method does all the work of adding it to the game for them. Magma Block simply uses a base method of the block class for what happens on collisions, just like cactus. What if a given block doesn't fit inside an array? All you have to do is make the array larger. Since they have complete access to the source code, many things are actually easier. They can edit any base functionality easily, while modders have to do it outside of the base classes, which requires reflection or ASM. I'm not taking into account what I have to do, since modders add things through the forge library, I'm basing it off the actual source code.

Seriously, after a few years pass, this pattern is true for all games that get a ton of income, the developers spend a lot less time on it. However, I gotta give it to them, they still work on the game way more than other companies =P

I am not just a modder, I am a programmer as well, fluent in about 5 languages. Creating base functionality that makes it easy to add more of what already exists is what every programmer does, unless they want to have to rewrite everything over and over again.

Quote from xRagan»

Considering Jeb spent months adding those things, I'd hardly call it "a few minutes each to code".

I am actually a modder and a programmer, I would know. It takes about one line of code for each normal block that is the same on all sides. Colliding with a block was already implimented with cactus, all he had to do was copy over that method and change it to set the player on fire instead. Which, again is one line of code.

Polar bears are a bit more difficult, considering you have to animate them, but still would take roughly an hour to code.

Considering they are the actual devs of the game an should be familiar with the MC code inside and out, it probably took even less than that. I already said what strays and husks are, no reason to go deeper into that. Huge mushrooms? Just a slight change needed, they only made it possible for them to grow taller. A few lines of code at the most.

Improved and themed villages? Considering they have made tools to help the out with structures, the most work was designing the new villages.

Auto-Jump option? Simply check if you are colliding with a block that is only 1 high and facing it, if so jump. More code than the other ones, but still took an hour at the most.

Enderman in the nether? One line of code.

Falling dust particles? Only a few lines of code. I honestly don't know how particles work past 1.7.10 since they are no longer entities, but I am sure they would make it easier rather than harder to add them.

More Spawn eggs? One line of code each and no texturing to even do. Ridiculously simple.


Now I shouldn't have said "a few minutes each", because there are some exceptions that took up to an hour, but generally most of the changes took very little time. The update probably could have taken a week at the most counting bug fixes. I am not angry at them for being lazy, because every game gets this way after the devs are rich from it and it's been out for a while. Heavy feature adding is mostly during first release. I would probably be the same way if I owned a popular game, so not judging them. Just simply saying maybe for once they decided to make some intricate features.

Quote from xRagan»

The 1.10 cycle added quite a lot actually - fossils, magma blocks, nether wart block, red nether brick, polar bears, strays, husks, huge mushrooms, improved and themed villages, auto-jump option, endermen in the nether, falling dust particles, more spawn eggs, etc.

Those are very minor changes. Except for the auto jump, they all probably only took a few minutes each to code. Not saying your reply to him is invalid, it actually is quite valid. What I really came here to say is maybe, it's only in quanity that the features of this update is less. So far, 3 new mobs were shown that seem like they took at least a bit of time to code. Polar bear seems in my opinion, relatively simple to code. Strays & husks are retextured zombies and skeletons that don't burn in the sun. I feel like they have already added more actual work into this update so far than 1.10, just less amounts of features in exchange for intricate features. If this is all they added to 1.11, they didn't do much more amount of coding than 1.10, but I have a feeling this isn't all.

Quote from MeridaMagpie»

Maybe they won't ALL LOOK THE SAME?

Hey, that's racist. =P

"Tweaked cooldown mechanics to be less confusing"

Just tested the update, and now the mechanics are even more confusing for me. This patch is like if you got a new pair of clothes with a hole in it, and then try to fix it with the fabric from old clothes, which ends up making the hole even bigger.