Hosting from a DMZ would make sense, the only advantage to placing it within your admin or classroom networks would potentially be the ability to use your existing staff credentials and FTP server to directly access the config files manually, or to change world maps with ease.
All of the daily minecraft administrative tasks can generally be conducted from within the game by users that have been granted the relevant admin permissions in their defined group, in which case locating the server in the DMZ would be sufficient. One could always tinker at the file and folder level from within the school network on the odd occasion that it was required.
as far as b/width usage, ill repost a comment made by a knowledgeable commercial mc hosting rep.
Minecraft is a hog, and the bandwidth usage grows exponentially based on the number of players, this is somewhat reduced with bukkit.
Minecraft can use 150 to 200kbps bandwidth per player depending on whats going on, so I'll let you do the maths and look in shock and awe at what big player counts use .
I wanted to update, but to hit on a couple points mentioned:
1 - The whitelisting seems like it's going to be a district requirement
2 - I do like the EDU version, the problem is that this will mainly be played at home, so it negates the advantage of them already owning a license.
The district (and state edu department, because they have to be involved with firewalls, etc.) are having discussions and several concerns. Mainly things like:
Hardware - They are concerned that if it catches on and other schools want it, hardware expenditures would grow. Running more severs, space (100mb for each world and 30mb for each player, which seems small to me but maybe I'm not looking at the picture of a district this big), etc. Personally, to me that's a non issue though. I have no intentions, nor the time, to run initiatives for every school who wants to do it. I was just willing to donate my time for my school. I seriously doubt many other schools would want to do it considering the time investment required.
Bandwidth - They aren't sure how much it would take. My suggestion (and correct me if I'm wrong) would be to set a login limit and then scale as needed as we saw what it uses.
Security - (I believe the biggie) They want to see if they can set it up on a DMZ. I generally know what that is, but no idea about the actual logistics of it because I'm not an IT person. They want to insure it can't compromise their internal systems. So any thoughts on that from you server guys, or points I could share, would be appreciated.
They suggested (and contacted) GamingEDUs which hosts a free server for students at Ryerson University. I contacted them also, but neither of us have heard back. I'm not really in favor of it (at least for my application, but I'm willing to check it out if I ever hear back) because it's one world shared by several schools. Each schools gets a certain area. I don't know how much control I would have to build educational areas. Plus, it's K-12 and I'm not sure how appropriate that would be. But again, I never got a response when I checked into it.
As for servers, you don't need to have your own. Having your own servers is a HUGE investment. There are companies who "rent out" there servers, for little to no money. You can go to MCProHosting which hosts you a basic server for $2.50
Is there anyone knowledgeable (or could point me to someone who is) about the different hosting companies? I've found a few I was interested in, but figured I should ask someone who knows more about their reputations and such.
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- Making an educational (but fun) server for my 5th Grade students -
And spigot is usually updated faster than craftbukkit, and as it is a mod of craftbukkit still supports all the same plugins. Spigot currently has a 1.7.2 version for use even though it is not supported I have found no bugs using it thus far.
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You can't stand in the presense of a BEAST!" Trying dragoncave :3 "I tend to think of myself as a one man wolf pack"~ Alan Garner
Actually, ignore my question about hosts. I was actually able to talk with the owner of one of them to see about a discount and they were very kind and offered a really nice package for free to support education. (I won't mention who, because I would hate for them to get flooded due to their generosity for my kids, but it's a great package). So we're very happy!
That leads me to the next question in starting to work. Looking at wolfs post I will have to check into whether they offer spigot in their automatic plug installs (which is going to make it so much easier to configure), but I do know they have bukkit. But, since bukkit isn't up to 1.7 yet, I'm not sure the steps I need to take. I want the features of 1.7, but need to go ahead and start building my edu content. I've been learning to use MCEdit. That will take some time. Would I want to go ahead and do all that here at home in vanilla, wait since bukkit should be out after all that work, then upload it to the host, install bukkit from there (through the automatic), then go add things like warps and signs that are bukkit plugins? I don't want to get steps out of order and screw up.
Also, I noticed in MCEdit, it of course only loads areas that I've visited. I was planning on going pretty far out to build the edu areas (Math Island or something). Then leave the central area for students to build and warp them to the edu parts. If I start flying around in creative to find good areas to build in, will I quickly end up with a huge map (memory wise)? They're giving me 5gb to start with and I don't want to go flying all over the place, let it build a huge map, and then hog up their resources. I didn't know if it should all be close to the home spawn. I guess I could just teleport myself someplace out in the wilds at random and remember the coords, skipping all the chunks in between. That would put it far away but might make it smaller. Or am I being paranoid and revealing alot of the world not really make a huge difference on file size?
Thanks for all the help and getting this part cleared up so I can start building!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
- Making an educational (but fun) server for my 5th Grade students -
You and your wife sound like great teachers who truly care about their students.
You can run a Bukkit server, and use WorldGuard to protect areas of the map. Additionally, you could use a plugin like Essentials to set the spawn point, set up warps, and duplicate books you've written (/more command). You could white-list all students who you'd like to access the server, and use the CoreProtect plugin to find out if anyone has been destroying things they shouldn't be.
Just an update and more questions. I did find a good host for the server that's doing it 'basically free', so all good there. We're going to try setting up the server during our last week of winter break, next week. The world is largely finished, and you can see some pictures here. I'll freely admit a lot of the structures were cut and pasted (asking permissions of course). I did a lot of command block setup to make things interactive, my wife did a lot of decorating and making authentic interiors, shops, trades, etc.
I'm really nervous about setting up the Bukkit stuff (hence the questions below). Luckily the server will be using is supposed to install plugins automatically through their control panel. But I guess I still have to edit all the associated files with different permissions and such. There were kind folks early on that offered their time to work on it here in the thread, but I know life gets busy. If I get overwhelmed and need help, I would appreciate if anyone is still available. But I'm hoping not to bug people too much. As always, thanks for all the help and support. We wouldn't have ever done this if it wasn't for the support of the forum. I hope everyone had a good holiday! So, on to the next batch of questions!
1 - When you use things like Worldguard to define areas where blocks can’t be broken, where are those areas\coordinates ‘stored’? I ask since I plan on keeping a backup of the world to reuse each year. Also, if you need to do any editing to the maps (like if I make a new area offline, and want to paste it in with MCedit) I assume I just copy the world file from the hosting server, edit, and copy the world back to the server? I was wanting to better understand where the Worldguard coordinates were stored, and if they remembered them if the world file was replaced (with a copy of the same map, just with areas edited)
2 - Referring back to the last question, my mind is swimming a little trying to figure out what to do. I've been editing here on the home lan, no Bukkit. Since the server provider has an auto install feature for plugs, should I just copy the world file there, configure the plugs on the server, then copy the whole thing back here at home (to do any other work later on the world). Or is it better just to get it all setup here (with Bukkit), then move it over?
3 - I don’t exactly understand how versions work. When I started building everything I was using a 1.7.2 lan server here at home, then upgraded to 1.7.4. Do the Bukkit builds (since I’m planning on using the newest dev build) have to match the server number? IE, would Bukkit 1.7.2 work with a 1.7.4 server? Sorry if that’s a stupid question, but I thought there was some wiggle room with clients. Which is my next question.
4 - If the kids have an updated client (1.7.4) is it backwards compatible to a 1.7.2 server or will that have to change their profile? Just trying to figure out what kind of instructions I have to give. How far does that backwards compatibility go as updates are released?
5 - I was going to use Worldguard to make the educational areas not spawn mobs. Now in hind sight, I had a thought. I did several things with command blocks spawning custom mobs (like, when a student goes into a certain area, it spawns the skeleton of a historic person). Does command block spawning over ride a Worldguard area with no spawns allowed? (Like, is there a difference between mob summoning and spawning)
6 - I was looking to use Worldguard, Worldedit (which I guess I need to setup areas in Worldguard, please correct me if I’m wrong), and Essentials. I was looking at Commandbook, but it seems like most of that is covered in the other plugins I mentioned (please correct me if there’s something handy I need Commandbook for). Should these all work with the current dev build of Bukkit? Should I get the latest dev build of each or the last stable?
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- Making an educational (but fun) server for my 5th Grade students -
1 There will be a folder in your plugins folder named worldedit inside there will more folders and files and such and there will be inside the regions file.
2 What I would recommend is just replacing the world files and plugins folder but leaving the provided jar for the server intact
3 Certian versions of mc are compatible while others aren't mojang will normally tell you in the change log on their website when updates are released but yes a bukkit 1.7.2 server will be compatible with 1.7.4 clients
4 Yes normally that compatibility will be represented by the 2nd number as when that is different it represents new features where as the 3rd is NORMALLY just bug fixs as I said above they normally say on there website if it will work.
5 They will be spawned but removed immediately as they dont override as far as I know.
6 Honestly doesn't matter much unless the dev builds add new features or are required for compatibility (which with the 3 you mentioned is not the case. I have ran outdated versions of worldedit for a long time.)
Sir, I could host a private server with 10 gbs of ram for free every month. Just tell me what plugins you would need and I could get it set up. (if you still need it)
Thanks for the reply.
2 - So basically, since I'm just doing world building here at home, I wouldn't need to setup bukkit here. I can just shut the server down, copy the world file to here at home, drop in stuff with mcedit, copy it back to the server, fire it up and all my regions and such for world guard would still be there. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)
5 - If what I've read is correct, mobs can still wander in to denied areas. I was reading up on parent\child regions. I wonder if I can just define a small child area around the point where the custom mob spawns and set it to spawn enabled? That would keep out the majority of stuff.
PCGamer - Thanks for the very kind offer. I think we're good to go with the server but I will keep it in mind if something falls through.
And again, if anyone gets bored and wants to offer to be a sounding board I can contact, I appreciate it. I hate to impose on peoples time.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
- Making an educational (but fun) server for my 5th Grade students -
2 - So basically, since I'm just doing world building here at home, I wouldn't need to setup bukkit here. I can just shut the server down, copy the world file to here at home, drop in stuff with mcedit, copy it back to the server, fire it up and all my regions and such for world guard would still be there. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)
Yes, so if you mess around with the world at home then re-upload it to the server, plugin data (Like worldguard regions) will still be there.
WorldGuard region data is stored in /plugins/WorldGuard/regions
As long as you don't overwrite or remove that, your fine!
As a side note, Vanilla and Bukkit World files are compatible, Bukkit only modifies the server software and doesn't modify any part of the world.
5 - If what I've read is correct, mobs can still wander in to denied areas. I was reading up on parent\child regions. I wonder if I can just define a small child area around the point where the custom mob spawns and set it to spawn enabled? That would keep out the majority of stuff.
Okay, if you define a region, worldguard will stop: Players breaking things & Players placing things.
To block more things in a region you use flags, i recommend using these flags for the spawn region.
TIP #1 if you replace RegionNameHere with __global__ the flags will take place in the whole world, good if you don't want PVP and Creepers blowing stuff up, just use the flags below accept with __global__ as the region name
TIP #2 I don't know if you knew this but /rg is a alias for /region.
/rg flag RegionNameHere mob-spawning deny
[Blocks mobs from spawning in that region]
/rg flag RegionNameHere mob-damage deny
[Mobs cant kill players in that region if they wander in]
/rg flag RegionNameHere tnt deny
[Blocks tnt damage in that region, good if someone places tnt just outside it, nothing inside will blow up]
/rg flag RegionNameHere farewell This is an Example Message..
[This will tell people that they're leaving the protected zone, you could use this to tell them that mobs will now attack you, etc]
/rg flag RegionNameHere pvp deny
[If you have PvP on in the rest of the world, you can use this to disable it in that region.]
/rg flag RegionNameHere creeper-explosion deny
[Blocks creepers from breaking blocks in that region
Thanks for the reply. Was I correct that mobs spawned outside (or in this case, a smaller child region inside) of the nospawn areas can still wander in (or in this case outside that child block, into the bigger nospawn) area?
I'm not sure if you have found this resource, but there's actually a World Guard wiki (will post a link below.) I was actually quite impressed just how specific and in depth you could go with World Guard. You can put endless restrictions or freedom in whatever areas of the world you like:
Thanks for the resource, I've actually been reading the wikis quite a bit. I'm to the point where I'm going start setting up the server. Luckily it uses multicraft so that should make it easier on me. I decided to add Citizens and the economy plugin that comes with essentials. (I think I could add some neat stuff for the kids with Citizens). So the plugins I should be running are: Citizens, Essentials with the economy\signs, Worldguard, and Worldedit.
Considering my lack of coding skills and overall newbie knowledge, what is the best permissions program for me to use? I was looking at using Groupmanager or bPermissions. PEX sounded too complicated and I read about it breaking different things. I'm assuming I don't need anything too powerful.
Also, do I need Vault for anything I'm doing? From what I've read, no, but it seems like a commonly used plugin.
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- Making an educational (but fun) server for my 5th Grade students -
Thanks for the resource, I've actually been reading the wikis quite a bit. I'm to the point where I'm going start setting up the server. Luckily it uses multicraft so that should make it easier on me. I decided to add Citizens and the economy plugin that comes with essentials. (I think I could add some neat stuff for the kids with Citizens). So the plugins I should be running are: Citizens, Essentials with the economy\signs, Worldguard, and Worldedit.
Considering my lack of coding skills and overall newbie knowledge, what is the best permissions program for me to use? I was looking at using Groupmanager or bPermissions. PEX sounded too complicated and I read about it breaking different things. I'm assuming I don't need anything too powerful.
Also, do I need Vault for anything I'm doing? From what I've read, no, but it seems like a commonly used plugin.
Groupmanager is by far the easiest to use, some people might say its more than you need, Id say go for it. As for Vault you would need it if one of your plugins requires it to load. If your server turns on with all your plugins loaded, you don't need it. Plugins will state if you need it on the Bukkit threads.
I would recommend that you use group manager. It is quite easy to use, I learned it a few hours. You may need this http://wiki.ess3.net/wiki/Group_Manager as it will give you the commands and a list of perms you can add and how to make groups and so on.
Thanks for the both the offers. Things are pretty much done at this point, I spent the end of my break learning Bukkit and several plugins. I've been setting up worldguard, permissions, and such. But then, I realized Bukkit hasn't implemented command blocks using testfor, summon, and setblock. Most of the educational areas I spent months making use all of that to make them interactive. I spent my time building the world and waited for a stable Bukkit, but never even thought they might not add those commands.
I can't seem to find any info on if\when\or why they aren't in yet. I did find a ton of bug reports about it. So I'm kind of in a bind. I don't mind being patient at all. I can just close off the teleports to those areas and let the students start building (I really wanted to open it after this coming weekend) and wait for the commands. But it would be nice to know if there's some reason they can't be added to Bukkit. It would take a lot of work to figure out another way to do things with just redstone, and much of it wouldn't probably be possible. Any thoughts anyone might have that could give me some piece of mind that eventually they'll probably be added would make me feel a lot better.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
- Making an educational (but fun) server for my 5th Grade students -
All of the daily minecraft administrative tasks can generally be conducted from within the game by users that have been granted the relevant admin permissions in their defined group, in which case locating the server in the DMZ would be sufficient. One could always tinker at the file and folder level from within the school network on the odd occasion that it was required.
as far as b/width usage, ill repost a comment made by a knowledgeable commercial mc hosting rep.
As for servers, you don't need to have your own. Having your own servers is a HUGE investment. There are companies who "rent out" there servers, for little to no money. You can go to MCProHosting which hosts you a basic server for $2.50
Trying dragoncave :3 "I tend to think of myself as a one man wolf pack"~ Alan Garner
That leads me to the next question in starting to work. Looking at wolfs post I will have to check into whether they offer spigot in their automatic plug installs (which is going to make it so much easier to configure), but I do know they have bukkit. But, since bukkit isn't up to 1.7 yet, I'm not sure the steps I need to take. I want the features of 1.7, but need to go ahead and start building my edu content. I've been learning to use MCEdit. That will take some time. Would I want to go ahead and do all that here at home in vanilla, wait since bukkit should be out after all that work, then upload it to the host, install bukkit from there (through the automatic), then go add things like warps and signs that are bukkit plugins? I don't want to get steps out of order and screw up.
Also, I noticed in MCEdit, it of course only loads areas that I've visited. I was planning on going pretty far out to build the edu areas (Math Island or something). Then leave the central area for students to build and warp them to the edu parts. If I start flying around in creative to find good areas to build in, will I quickly end up with a huge map (memory wise)? They're giving me 5gb to start with and I don't want to go flying all over the place, let it build a huge map, and then hog up their resources. I didn't know if it should all be close to the home spawn. I guess I could just teleport myself someplace out in the wilds at random and remember the coords, skipping all the chunks in between. That would put it far away but might make it smaller. Or am I being paranoid and revealing alot of the world not really make a huge difference on file size?
Thanks for all the help and getting this part cleared up so I can start building!
You can run a Bukkit server, and use WorldGuard to protect areas of the map. Additionally, you could use a plugin like Essentials to set the spawn point, set up warps, and duplicate books you've written (/more command). You could white-list all students who you'd like to access the server, and use the CoreProtect plugin to find out if anyone has been destroying things they shouldn't be.
I've sent you a PM with further details.
I'm really nervous about setting up the Bukkit stuff (hence the questions below). Luckily the server will be using is supposed to install plugins automatically through their control panel. But I guess I still have to edit all the associated files with different permissions and such. There were kind folks early on that offered their time to work on it here in the thread, but I know life gets busy. If I get overwhelmed and need help, I would appreciate if anyone is still available. But I'm hoping not to bug people too much. As always, thanks for all the help and support. We wouldn't have ever done this if it wasn't for the support of the forum. I hope everyone had a good holiday! So, on to the next batch of questions!
1 - When you use things like Worldguard to define areas where blocks can’t be broken, where are those areas\coordinates ‘stored’? I ask since I plan on keeping a backup of the world to reuse each year. Also, if you need to do any editing to the maps (like if I make a new area offline, and want to paste it in with MCedit) I assume I just copy the world file from the hosting server, edit, and copy the world back to the server? I was wanting to better understand where the Worldguard coordinates were stored, and if they remembered them if the world file was replaced (with a copy of the same map, just with areas edited)
2 - Referring back to the last question, my mind is swimming a little trying to figure out what to do. I've been editing here on the home lan, no Bukkit. Since the server provider has an auto install feature for plugs, should I just copy the world file there, configure the plugs on the server, then copy the whole thing back here at home (to do any other work later on the world). Or is it better just to get it all setup here (with Bukkit), then move it over?
3 - I don’t exactly understand how versions work. When I started building everything I was using a 1.7.2 lan server here at home, then upgraded to 1.7.4. Do the Bukkit builds (since I’m planning on using the newest dev build) have to match the server number? IE, would Bukkit 1.7.2 work with a 1.7.4 server? Sorry if that’s a stupid question, but I thought there was some wiggle room with clients. Which is my next question.
4 - If the kids have an updated client (1.7.4) is it backwards compatible to a 1.7.2 server or will that have to change their profile? Just trying to figure out what kind of instructions I have to give. How far does that backwards compatibility go as updates are released?
5 - I was going to use Worldguard to make the educational areas not spawn mobs. Now in hind sight, I had a thought. I did several things with command blocks spawning custom mobs (like, when a student goes into a certain area, it spawns the skeleton of a historic person). Does command block spawning over ride a Worldguard area with no spawns allowed? (Like, is there a difference between mob summoning and spawning)
6 - I was looking to use Worldguard, Worldedit (which I guess I need to setup areas in Worldguard, please correct me if I’m wrong), and Essentials. I was looking at Commandbook, but it seems like most of that is covered in the other plugins I mentioned (please correct me if there’s something handy I need Commandbook for). Should these all work with the current dev build of Bukkit? Should I get the latest dev build of each or the last stable?
2 What I would recommend is just replacing the world files and plugins folder but leaving the provided jar for the server intact
3 Certian versions of mc are compatible while others aren't mojang will normally tell you in the change log on their website when updates are released but yes a bukkit 1.7.2 server will be compatible with 1.7.4 clients
4 Yes normally that compatibility will be represented by the 2nd number as when that is different it represents new features where as the 3rd is NORMALLY just bug fixs as I said above they normally say on there website if it will work.
5 They will be spawned but removed immediately as they dont override as far as I know.
6 Honestly doesn't matter much unless the dev builds add new features or are required for compatibility (which with the 3 you mentioned is not the case. I have ran outdated versions of worldedit for a long time.)
2 - So basically, since I'm just doing world building here at home, I wouldn't need to setup bukkit here. I can just shut the server down, copy the world file to here at home, drop in stuff with mcedit, copy it back to the server, fire it up and all my regions and such for world guard would still be there. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)
5 - If what I've read is correct, mobs can still wander in to denied areas. I was reading up on parent\child regions. I wonder if I can just define a small child area around the point where the custom mob spawns and set it to spawn enabled? That would keep out the majority of stuff.
PCGamer - Thanks for the very kind offer. I think we're good to go with the server but I will keep it in mind if something falls through.
And again, if anyone gets bored and wants to offer to be a sounding board I can contact, I appreciate it. I hate to impose on peoples time.
I've been hosting Minecraft servers for almost 2 years now.
Yes, so if you mess around with the world at home then re-upload it to the server, plugin data (Like worldguard regions) will still be there.
WorldGuard region data is stored in /plugins/WorldGuard/regions
As long as you don't overwrite or remove that, your fine!
As a side note, Vanilla and Bukkit World files are compatible, Bukkit only modifies the server software and doesn't modify any part of the world.
Okay, if you define a region, worldguard will stop: Players breaking things & Players placing things.
To block more things in a region you use flags, i recommend using these flags for the spawn region.
TIP #1 if you replace RegionNameHere with __global__ the flags will take place in the whole world, good if you don't want PVP and Creepers blowing stuff up, just use the flags below accept with __global__ as the region name
TIP #2 I don't know if you knew this but /rg is a alias for /region.
/rg flag RegionNameHere mob-spawning deny
[Blocks mobs from spawning in that region]
/rg flag RegionNameHere mob-damage deny
[Mobs cant kill players in that region if they wander in]
/rg flag RegionNameHere tnt deny
[Blocks tnt damage in that region, good if someone places tnt just outside it, nothing inside will blow up]
/rg flag RegionNameHere farewell This is an Example Message..
[This will tell people that they're leaving the protected zone, you could use this to tell them that mobs will now attack you, etc]
/rg flag RegionNameHere pvp deny
[If you have PvP on in the rest of the world, you can use this to disable it in that region.]
/rg flag RegionNameHere creeper-explosion deny
[Blocks creepers from breaking blocks in that region
If you need any other help, feel free to ask!
http://wiki.sk89q.com/wiki/WorldGuard/Regions/Flags
Considering my lack of coding skills and overall newbie knowledge, what is the best permissions program for me to use? I was looking at using Groupmanager or bPermissions. PEX sounded too complicated and I read about it breaking different things. I'm assuming I don't need anything too powerful.
Also, do I need Vault for anything I'm doing? From what I've read, no, but it seems like a commonly used plugin.
Groupmanager is by far the easiest to use, some people might say its more than you need, Id say go for it. As for Vault you would need it if one of your plugins requires it to load. If your server turns on with all your plugins loaded, you don't need it. Plugins will state if you need it on the Bukkit threads.
I can't seem to find any info on if\when\or why they aren't in yet. I did find a ton of bug reports about it. So I'm kind of in a bind. I don't mind being patient at all. I can just close off the teleports to those areas and let the students start building (I really wanted to open it after this coming weekend) and wait for the commands. But it would be nice to know if there's some reason they can't be added to Bukkit. It would take a lot of work to figure out another way to do things with just redstone, and much of it wouldn't probably be possible. Any thoughts anyone might have that could give me some piece of mind that eventually they'll probably be added would make me feel a lot better.