Heh, a little before my time.
Just understand that I'm not very hasty to throw my money around; I work for it, so I take care of it. There is a very easy alternative to paying $20, which is even debatebaly legal. There's even online servers that bypass Minecraft's authentification code process, making playing online possible too.
I'm not a pirate hater, I download programs and games all the time. I do hate MC pirates though, and all other indie games. It's those money-hungry corporations that you should steal from...
Oh? What have they EVER done to you, besides giving you good content for the money you pay? Why should you steal from them, it takes time and money to create software and games. It's like saying, "Oh you work for a big company, so I'll just take a quarter of your salary because I can."
People get paid for how well the stuff sells. Doesn't sell well? The programmers and graphic artists and etc. don't get paid as much.
I love how people seem to think that if you pirate a game, nobody loses anything. Games and other software are products that cost money to design, test, and distribute. The consumer repays that by purchasing a product. If you're not paying for that, who is?
If you obtain a product at no cost through illegitimate means, that's stealing. In cyberspace or elsewhere. Ask any law professional, ask any judge, they'll say the same thing.
What the heck is there to distribute, data? Data costs nothing within it of itself and it can be dedicated and multiplied freely, so when you're pirating something on the internet your not really stealing anything, you're simply connecting to a computer that contains this data by means of the internet, asking it to duplicate it and send it back. There is nothing lost in this transaction, there is only gain.
The only valid argument against pirating is that, where the client would have had to pay the developer for this data, the client has obtained it for free, thereby "stealing" a potential transaction between the client and the developer. although it is true that some people pirate games that they would have otherwise bought and never bother to pay the developer, from my experience, most people who pirate only pirate game they would just kind of shrug off otherwise, or they by the game later.
I love how people seem to think that if you pirate a game, nobody loses anything. Games and other software are products that cost money to design, test, and distribute. The consumer repays that by purchasing a product. If you're not paying for that, who is?
If you obtain a product at no cost through illegitimate means, that's stealing. In cyberspace or elsewhere. Ask any law professional, ask any judge, they'll say the same thing.
What the heck is there to distribute, data? Data costs nothing within it of itself and it can be dedicated and multiplied freely, so when you're pirating something on the internet your not really stealing anything, you're simply connecting to a computer that contains this data by means of the internet, asking it to duplicate it and send it back. There is nothing lost in this transaction, there is only gain.
The only valid argument against pirating is that, where the client would have had to pay the developer for this data, the client has obtained it for free, thereby "stealing" a potential transaction between the client and the developer. although it is true that some people pirate games that they would have otherwise bought and never bother to pay the developer, from my experience, most people who pirate only pirate game they would just kind of shrug off otherwise, or they by the game later.
Content distribution through services like Steam, Xbox Live, and stuff like that cost money (they charge content makers to host games there). Advertising also costs money. Lots of money. Data hosting costs a lot too, finding the server space to hold your program or game for distribution, as well as making sure connections in and out are fast, which costs yet more money.
No matter which way you look at it, a lot of money is spent on these things. Money they're not getting back.
While I wall acknowledge those who DID pay for the game after trying it (and thank you for such), there are yet many, many more who did not and never intend to, and it's those people that I despise.
I honestly don't see anything wrong with piracy. Developers still make tons of money whether something is pirated or not. They may not make as much money as they could, but they still make more money then they need.
Oh, so now you are the unilateral assessor of need? And I take it you NEED Minecraft or any other game? You need the game as much as they need the money.
We live in a capitalist society driven by a consumer market. If you think that is bad, do something to change it, but don't be an entitled douche and claim you have the right to steal things because you want to.
I don't think my point was understood. I don't need MineCraft, or anything for that matter. But if we only bought stuff because we needed them, no one would buy anything except food and water and clothes, etc.
But back to the main topic. Piracy isn't stealing, because it doesn't make anyone lose anything. And don't say "It makes them lose the sale", because that's BS. Every second you don't buy a product, you make someone lose a sale. That's hardly stealing. Piracy isn't parasitism. It's commensalism.
No, you completely missed my point because you are myopic and selfish. Your argument for not paying developers for thier work is they don't "need" the money. Well you don't need thier game either. You have no justification for your actions, but you can continue to play mental gymnastics to justify yourself actively skrewing people out of a living. If you want to take the time and effort to develop and deploy a new, sustainable model for supporting content creators, then do that, but if all you are going to do is sit around talking about how you aren't stealing anything when you pirate work someone else made to get around paying money for it, you are pretty much the definition of an economic parasite.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Adam222 »
So, yeah. Minecraft is kind of like walking into a high-class auction with top security and a solid reputation only to find out that everyone else in the room is a mugger. Who explodes.
I love how people seem to think that if you pirate a game, nobody loses anything. Games and other software are products that cost money to design, test, and distribute. The consumer repays that by purchasing a product. If you're not paying for that, who is?
If you obtain a product at no cost through illegitimate means, that's stealing. In cyberspace or elsewhere. Ask any law professional, ask any judge, they'll say the same thing.
What the heck is there to distribute, data? Data costs nothing within it of itself and it can be dedicated and multiplied freely, so when you're pirating something on the internet your not really stealing anything, you're simply connecting to a computer that contains this data by means of the internet, asking it to duplicate it and send it back. There is nothing lost in this transaction, there is only gain.
The only valid argument against pirating is that, where the client would have had to pay the developer for this data, the client has obtained it for free, thereby "stealing" a potential transaction between the client and the developer. although it is true that some people pirate games that they would have otherwise bought and never bother to pay the developer, from my experience, most people who pirate only pirate game they would just kind of shrug off otherwise, or they by the game later.
Read this and then explain why that is wrong and it still isn't stealing:
Quote from Meldi »
Even though the other person still got his copy, piracy "steals" from the total profit of the game. This means that games eigther:
Become more expensive for the ones actualy buying games since less people have to cover the development cost.
There is made less games in total, meaning the people who pay might miss out on games they would have wanted to play.
Or, games that deserve sequels don't get them!
Or a combination of the above.
So even though the person still have his copy are pirates still taking from him something he would have had if they didn't copy the game from him
In other words, it works a bit like insuranse fraud, it seems like it's the "big rich companies" that loose a little of their money, but in reality the money is taken from the customer trough higher insurance rates.
Quote from mnjiman »
Quote from kilr4hir1996 »
Quote from mnjiman »
Stealing is stealing, no matter how you look at it or give reason for doing it.
You steal a loft of bread from a big chain super market. Is that stealing? Yes.
You borrow's someone pen from a student in your class, and yet you decide to 'forget' to give it back. Is that stealing? Yes.
No matter what reason you attach to doing it, its stealing.
I doubt a simple thread will change the thieves mind since they lack the morale compass to compherend these moral values. "Why should I have to pay for something someone created when they already made lots of money on it?"
Let the thread die.
i do not lack a moral compass, nor is piracy "stealing". stealing is removing something without permission. piracy is making a copy of something. there is a difference.
Let me make a copy of everything in your wallet. It isnt stealing, I am just copying it. Let me make a copy of your essay that you did in school, and say that I own it. Ill use it for what ever purposes that I want to use it for... no it is not stealing, i am only copying it. DERP.
Hey let us demand Notch give us back the money we paid for the game, eff him. Why should we have to pay to use a product we did not create ourselves. We do not need permission to own it even though we did not create it!
I hope my sarcasm was obvious enough.
O and yes, the above example from Meldi is a good explanation too to why piracy is stealing.
Why is the difference from purchasing the physical copy of the game like on a CD vs the actual program itself? If you were taking the CD itself you would consider it stealing, but when the company decides to give more benefit to users and offer it on a the internet to be downloaded... its only piracy because its only the software. HERP A DERP.
I honestly don't see anything wrong with piracy. Developers still make tons of money whether something is pirated or not. They may not make as much money as they could, but they still make more money then they need.
That's because the cost of you pirating a game and never buying it is passed onto the consumers who do pay. Irrespective of whether or not you believe that piracy doesn't affect the bottom line, the producers of film/music/games/IP factor piracy "losses" into the retail price of their product. The ambiguity of piracy as a crime doesn't matter, nor does the individual's moral stance. It's against the law, so it's illegal, and thus "wrong".
I love how people seem to think that if you pirate a game, nobody loses anything.
Nobody does lose anything. They may not gain something, but that's different from losing something.
If you obtain a product at no cost through illegitimate means, that's stealing. In cyberspace or elsewhere. Ask any law professional, ask any judge, they'll say the same thing.
Actually, they'll say copying is copyright infringement.
Quote from bdiddy »
I'm not a pirate hater, I download programs and games all the time. I do hate MC pirates though, and all other indie games. It's those money-hungry corporations that you should steal from...
Stealing is okay as long as it's from someone who's rich? Ugh. If you believe copyright infringement is stealing, have some moral backbone and stop rationalizing.
Let me make a copy of everything in your wallet. It isnt stealing, I am just copying it.
True. That's copying, not stealing.
Let me make a copy of your essay that you did in school, and say that I own it. Ill use it for what ever purposes that I want to use it for... no it is not stealing, i am only copying it.
True. That's copying, not stealing.
Why is the difference from purchasing the physical copy of the game like on a CD vs the actual program itself?
Because one is a physical product that if taken, is removed from its owner. The other leaves the original intact. The content itself doesn't matter for this determination. Taking a CD is stealing, even if the CD is completely blank.
The one thing the video does not cover are the people who freeload alot of stuff. A good defence against semi-freeloaders are full level demos with nothing that is not used in the demo cut out. But that doesn't work for major freeloaders.
Either way from what I've heard from pirater's complaining is that the Nether portal doesn't work in MineCraft. I'm not sure about that though. Plus when you but MineCraft you get to change your appearance.
When major freeloaders "freeload" they pay nothing for a good/bad/great/etc. product. That is illegal. They are still obtaining the full product without giving the developer anything. That is the problem. There is no way to aviod that, only minimize it.
The only hole you can put in that is that they say good things about it. Now lets assume for your argument that they don't, that generates no sales.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I was the second person to use the avatar I have. The rest took it from me. The first I asked, he said yes.
I know what I'm doing. I plan ahead, or get tired and screw up everything.
Why is the difference from purchasing the physical copy of the game like on a CD vs the actual program itself?
Because one is a physical product that if taken, is removed from its owner. The other leaves the original intact. The content itself doesn't matter for this determination. Taking a CD is stealing, even if the CD is completely blank
Just curious.
Lets say i work at Intel, in the spirit of sharing i accidentaly copy all their documentation, schematics and designs. Followed by shortly thereafter to accidentaly sell it to AMD. Have i then stolen business secrets, or have i simply copied them? I mean, Intel still got all their originals.
And if that is stealing.
What if i had put it up on piratebay instead? Copying or stealing?
Lets say i work at Intel, in the spirit of sharing i accidentaly copy all their documentation, schematics and designs. Followed by shortly thereafter to accidentaly sell it to AMD. Have i then stolen business secrets, or have i simply copied them? I mean, Intel still got all their originals.
And if that is stealing.
What if i had put it up on piratebay instead? Copying or stealing?
Copying.
Now, I have nothing against the right of contract. For example, Intel could stipulate in your employment contract that giving away their trade secrets entitles them to damages or some other penalty, but that's not the same as copyright or patents, and it's still not stealing.
Why is the difference from purchasing the physical copy of the game like on a CD vs the actual program itself?
Because one is a physical product that if taken, is removed from its owner. The other leaves the original intact. The content itself doesn't matter for this determination. Taking a CD is stealing, even if the CD is completely blank
Just curious.
Lets say i work at Intel, in the spirit of sharing i accidentaly copy all their documentation, schematics and designs. Followed by shortly thereafter to accidentaly sell it to AMD. Have i then stolen business secrets, or have i simply copied them? I mean, Intel still got all their originals.
And if that is stealing.
What if i had put it up on piratebay instead? Copying or stealing?
You can't argue rationally with pirates. They are like religious people. They have a belief with an immense confirmation bias. They justify thier behaviors within the context of thier framework, regardless of the way the world actually works around them. Most pirates are people who have never actually worked on anything and had to concider that thier pirating impacts the incomes and lives of others. Before I actually worked in the real world, I was much more ameanable to the pirate position, but not any more. Arguing that piracy is ok is tantamount to saying you don't think the capitalist model should apply to people who create ideas rather than physical goods. If you want to make that statement, fine, make that statement, and work towards changing society to allow that to become truth. However, if you just sit there and say, "I should be able to get this for free because taking it doesn't destroy the original," or any other such psuedointellectual argument, you are just a parasite justifying your parasitic behavior.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Adam222 »
So, yeah. Minecraft is kind of like walking into a high-class auction with top security and a solid reputation only to find out that everyone else in the room is a mugger. Who explodes.
I pirated Minecraft.
Then I got someone to buy it for me, for I do not have a job or money.
I'm not going to try to justify pirating it, either. I know that copyright infringement (And, yes, piracy is copyright infringement, not stealing. I take pre-law. I know this stuff.) is bad.
However, I do not believe that pirates are the scum of the Earth, and need to be destroyed for the betterment of Yoomanity.
My friends played my minecraft while visiting me one day and then decided to buy it themselves after playing it. How is that any different than pirating? Is it criminal to let a sibling play your video games? I don't see any criminal action in me and friends watching a rented movie together either but that's technically the same thing as pirating isn't it? While pirating may result in some small percentage of possible potential sales loss, the free advertising it generates vastly outweighs the profit difference.
I'm not a pirate hater, I download programs and games all the time. I do hate MC pirates though, and all other indie games. It's those money-hungry corporations that you should steal from...
Stealing is okay as long as it's from someone who's rich? Ugh. If you believe copyright infringement is stealing, have some moral backbone and stop rationalizing.
I see where you are coming from, but I'm not saying to steal from someone who is rich. I am saying take something that was wrongfully overcharged to you. For instance, if a video game comes out, often times an expansion pack will follow within the next few months. The game itself costs $60, and the expansion usually costs $10-$15. Some game designers had the expansion done before the release, and waited till afterwards to make it available. These are the "money-hungry" corporations I was referring to. And about the whole "stealing" thing. As pirating takes nothing away from anyone, it cannot be stealing. I agree with someone who previously called it "copying." It may be wrong, but I'm not breaking into people's houses and taking their software....
That's my personal stance. Take it or leave it, but just know that I buy everything from all indie games.
Sure you can. I'm up for a vigorous debate if you are. The truth is that both camps have some pretty obnoxious trolls who jump in just to blast their opponents, but there are a lot of reasonable people on both sides of the argument, even if they aren't the most outspoken.
They justify thier behaviors within the context of thier framework, regardless of the way the world actually works around them.
I would apply that description precisely to those who defend so called "intellectual property". They try to justify it because it's the framework they were born in to and they get stuck in that mindset. The RIAA has a business model of:
1. Sue fans in court.
2. ???
3. Profit.
Their blindness to reality prevents them from seeing the issue any other way, regardless of the reality of the world around them, and they are paying dearly for it in their quarterly statements.
Most pirates are people who have never actually worked on anything and had to concider that thier pirating impacts the incomes and lives of others.
I write software professionally.
Arguing that piracy is ok is tantamount to saying you don't think the capitalist model should apply to people who create ideas rather than physical goods.
On the contrary, IP laws are government-created monopolies, which is exactly the opposite of the capitalist model. Seeing the tremendous damage these force-backed monopolies do to the economy is part of the reason I oppose them.
However, if you just sit there and say, "I should be able to get this for free because taking it doesn't destroy the original," or any other such psuedointellectual argument
It gets used a lot because it's a pretty compelling argument that I've never actually seen refuted.
EDIT:
Quote from bdiddy »
I see where you are coming from, but I'm not saying to steal from someone who is rich. I am saying take something that was wrongfully overcharged to you.
So it's okay to steal from someone as long as you voluntarily agreed to pay them money previously, but afterwards decided it was more than you should have spent?
And about the whole "stealing" thing. As pirating takes nothing away from anyone, it cannot be stealing.
I agree, but you're the one who said it was "wrong". =) If you think it's wrong, why do you do it?
Could we all please stop arguing about pirating? What people want to spend their money on is up to them. The pirates have their reasons, it is no reason for you all to be condescending towards them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The National Socialist of minecraftforums, since 2010!
[/anecdotal evidence].
Heh, a little before my time.
Just understand that I'm not very hasty to throw my money around; I work for it, so I take care of it. There is a very easy alternative to paying $20, which is even debatebaly legal. There's even online servers that bypass Minecraft's authentification code process, making playing online possible too.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=343450&start=240
Oh? What have they EVER done to you, besides giving you good content for the money you pay? Why should you steal from them, it takes time and money to create software and games. It's like saying, "Oh you work for a big company, so I'll just take a quarter of your salary because I can."
People get paid for how well the stuff sells. Doesn't sell well? The programmers and graphic artists and etc. don't get paid as much.
Sleekcraft! Check it out!
What the heck is there to distribute, data? Data costs nothing within it of itself and it can be dedicated and multiplied freely, so when you're pirating something on the internet your not really stealing anything, you're simply connecting to a computer that contains this data by means of the internet, asking it to duplicate it and send it back. There is nothing lost in this transaction, there is only gain.
The only valid argument against pirating is that, where the client would have had to pay the developer for this data, the client has obtained it for free, thereby "stealing" a potential transaction between the client and the developer. although it is true that some people pirate games that they would have otherwise bought and never bother to pay the developer, from my experience, most people who pirate only pirate game they would just kind of shrug off otherwise, or they by the game later.
Content distribution through services like Steam, Xbox Live, and stuff like that cost money (they charge content makers to host games there). Advertising also costs money. Lots of money. Data hosting costs a lot too, finding the server space to hold your program or game for distribution, as well as making sure connections in and out are fast, which costs yet more money.
No matter which way you look at it, a lot of money is spent on these things. Money they're not getting back.
While I wall acknowledge those who DID pay for the game after trying it (and thank you for such), there are yet many, many more who did not and never intend to, and it's those people that I despise.
Problem?
No, you completely missed my point because you are myopic and selfish. Your argument for not paying developers for thier work is they don't "need" the money. Well you don't need thier game either. You have no justification for your actions, but you can continue to play mental gymnastics to justify yourself actively skrewing people out of a living. If you want to take the time and effort to develop and deploy a new, sustainable model for supporting content creators, then do that, but if all you are going to do is sit around talking about how you aren't stealing anything when you pirate work someone else made to get around paying money for it, you are pretty much the definition of an economic parasite.
Read this and then explain why that is wrong and it still isn't stealing:
Warning: Content of link might be highly addictive.
Someone understands.
Problem?
That's because the cost of you pirating a game and never buying it is passed onto the consumers who do pay. Irrespective of whether or not you believe that piracy doesn't affect the bottom line, the producers of film/music/games/IP factor piracy "losses" into the retail price of their product. The ambiguity of piracy as a crime doesn't matter, nor does the individual's moral stance. It's against the law, so it's illegal, and thus "wrong".
Nobody does lose anything. They may not gain something, but that's different from losing something.
Actually, they'll say copying is copyright infringement.
Stealing is okay as long as it's from someone who's rich? Ugh. If you believe copyright infringement is stealing, have some moral backbone and stop rationalizing.
True. That's copying, not stealing.
True. That's copying, not stealing.
Because one is a physical product that if taken, is removed from its owner. The other leaves the original intact. The content itself doesn't matter for this determination. Taking a CD is stealing, even if the CD is completely blank.
Either way from what I've heard from pirater's complaining is that the Nether portal doesn't work in MineCraft. I'm not sure about that though. Plus when you but MineCraft you get to change your appearance.
When major freeloaders "freeload" they pay nothing for a good/bad/great/etc. product. That is illegal. They are still obtaining the full product without giving the developer anything. That is the problem. There is no way to aviod that, only minimize it.
The only hole you can put in that is that they say good things about it. Now lets assume for your argument that they don't, that generates no sales.
I was the second person to use the avatar I have. The rest took it from me. The first I asked, he said yes.
I know what I'm doing. I plan ahead, or get tired and screw up everything.
Just curious.
Lets say i work at Intel, in the spirit of sharing i accidentaly copy all their documentation, schematics and designs. Followed by shortly thereafter to accidentaly sell it to AMD. Have i then stolen business secrets, or have i simply copied them? I mean, Intel still got all their originals.
And if that is stealing.
What if i had put it up on piratebay instead? Copying or stealing?
Warning: Content of link might be highly addictive.
Copying.
Now, I have nothing against the right of contract. For example, Intel could stipulate in your employment contract that giving away their trade secrets entitles them to damages or some other penalty, but that's not the same as copyright or patents, and it's still not stealing.
You can't argue rationally with pirates. They are like religious people. They have a belief with an immense confirmation bias. They justify thier behaviors within the context of thier framework, regardless of the way the world actually works around them. Most pirates are people who have never actually worked on anything and had to concider that thier pirating impacts the incomes and lives of others. Before I actually worked in the real world, I was much more ameanable to the pirate position, but not any more. Arguing that piracy is ok is tantamount to saying you don't think the capitalist model should apply to people who create ideas rather than physical goods. If you want to make that statement, fine, make that statement, and work towards changing society to allow that to become truth. However, if you just sit there and say, "I should be able to get this for free because taking it doesn't destroy the original," or any other such psuedointellectual argument, you are just a parasite justifying your parasitic behavior.
Then I got someone to buy it for me, for I do not have a job or money.
I'm not going to try to justify pirating it, either. I know that copyright infringement (And, yes, piracy is copyright infringement, not stealing. I take pre-law. I know this stuff.) is bad.
However, I do not believe that pirates are the scum of the Earth, and need to be destroyed for the betterment of Yoomanity.
I see where you are coming from, but I'm not saying to steal from someone who is rich. I am saying take something that was wrongfully overcharged to you. For instance, if a video game comes out, often times an expansion pack will follow within the next few months. The game itself costs $60, and the expansion usually costs $10-$15. Some game designers had the expansion done before the release, and waited till afterwards to make it available. These are the "money-hungry" corporations I was referring to. And about the whole "stealing" thing. As pirating takes nothing away from anyone, it cannot be stealing. I agree with someone who previously called it "copying." It may be wrong, but I'm not breaking into people's houses and taking their software....
That's my personal stance. Take it or leave it, but just know that I buy everything from all indie games.
Sure you can. I'm up for a vigorous debate if you are. The truth is that both camps have some pretty obnoxious trolls who jump in just to blast their opponents, but there are a lot of reasonable people on both sides of the argument, even if they aren't the most outspoken.
I would apply that description precisely to those who defend so called "intellectual property". They try to justify it because it's the framework they were born in to and they get stuck in that mindset. The RIAA has a business model of:
1. Sue fans in court.
2. ???
3. Profit.
Their blindness to reality prevents them from seeing the issue any other way, regardless of the reality of the world around them, and they are paying dearly for it in their quarterly statements.
I write software professionally.
On the contrary, IP laws are government-created monopolies, which is exactly the opposite of the capitalist model. Seeing the tremendous damage these force-backed monopolies do to the economy is part of the reason I oppose them.
It gets used a lot because it's a pretty compelling argument that I've never actually seen refuted.
EDIT:
So it's okay to steal from someone as long as you voluntarily agreed to pay them money previously, but afterwards decided it was more than you should have spent?
I agree, but you're the one who said it was "wrong". =) If you think it's wrong, why do you do it?
The National Socialist of minecraftforums, since 2010!