I didn't say 'no mods', I just said that having some 'pseudo-moderators' would be of almost excessive benefit. Have a few appointed mods, then have experienced and respected people (note how I said 'people', not 'roleplayers') to be a sort of deputies. It would be of great benefit, at risk of sounding redundant.
It is not really necessary to split "serious and non-serious" role plays. If I am reading Spitefulfox's concerns right he believes that it would merely enforce the "elitist" mentality. If trying to divide the line between "serious" and "non-serious" RPs reduces the likely hood of a devoted RP forum, then I would rather think it better to leave the division to a later date if it's thought necessary.
Also I am reading between the lines of a few people's posts, interpreting what I believe is being said, so I may misrepresent certain arguments. One thing I would like to elaborate on is what constitutes as "serious" and "non-serious" RPs, I'll tweak the wording and say "Casual" and "Regulated" another way to put it is Lightweight and Heavyweight roleplays.
Casual RPs
*Do not necessarily need a character sheet
*Have little or no rules
*Lighter world or story content
*Generally more free form
*Certain power gaming and over powering conventions are reasonable
*Have shorter posts or no post requirements
*Rarely have corrections or moderation
*Faster moving
Regulated RPs
*Depend on accurate character sheets
*Have strict posting rules to follow
*Indepth storylines
*Often have minimum post sizes
*Often require a certain maturity or experience to follow
*Often scripted or constructed in a certain way
*Moderated heavily by master storytellers
*Move far slower in comparison
So do these two differ enough to warrant a sub division? The major problems and plus arguments are mostly due to character sheets and slower RPs being buried by faster ones. For neatness sake I would like to see a subdivision but still think it's a case study scenario.
69FoYou: Neil's thread was good as a guideline, but should not be seen as rules, which is what was happening. It was a good thread if it was only seen as a guideline, not rules. That is why it got stickied in the first place.
Stingray: That was a misreading on my part, so I apologize.
I do not disagree that helpful people are beneficial, but they should not have a title for being helpful.
The reason is the title would either be
Redundant: If your post is good, it should be read as such. The title shouldn't display that you are a better poster than others.
Fall to abuse: This isn't even about the people with the title necessarily. There are people that will read your word as law, and if you mess up, they will use it against others.
There will also be people who hate you just because you have a pseudo mod title. They will see you as abusing your title, whether you are or not.
In the end, its worked for other sections to not have titles, it should work for this section. If you spend enough time in certain sections, you will see the people that are usually helpful, and that should be enough. If someone bashes you, or calls you any form of back-seat moderator, you should report them. There is nothing wrong with enforcing the rules/helping.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Stingray: That was a misreading on my part, so I apologize.
I do not disagree that helpful people are beneficial, but they should not have a title for being helpful.
I completely agree with this. However, my line of thinking was that the 'pseudo-moderators' would have a say in the goings-on of the Section. Not able to make choices on their own, but have influence with the actual mods.
Quote from Beltir »
The reason is the title would either be
Redundant: If your post is good, it should be read as such. The title shouldn't display that you are a better poster than others.
Fall to abuse: This isn't even about the people with the title necessarily. There are people that will read your word as law, and if you mess up, they will use it against others.
There will also be people who hate you just because you have a pseudo mod title. They will see you as abusing your title, whether you are or not.
Again, all completely true. There again, it's just trusted and experienced members who have a say in what happens in that particular section.
Overall, I believe what I am trying to say, is that the 'pseudo-moderators' will have no official 'title', and that their influential position is known ONLY the the ACTUAL moderators, who respect and trust their opinions. Think of it like this:
Admins
Obviously, the highest respected people. No contest. Moderators
A step above the SecMods (correct me if I'm wrong, Idk EVERY rank in the forums) Sectional Mods
Control certain sections only, obviously. 'Pseudo-Moderators'
Have a certain amount of influence within the SecMods. Can't make ANY decisions on their own, and have to agree on proposition with a majority. Have no official powers. Members
Everyone else.
Idk, This is just an idea I'm having. Take it into consideration or shoot it down, whichever.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
//VIRAL BEASTS\\ Go check it out. Or I'll get Absolete on your ass.
If we trust someone to be a 'pseudo-moderator'/janitor, then we might as well make them a full blown moderator. I wouldn't want to give any regular joe any moderating powers, that I couldn't trust. If we can't trust a person 100%, then we shouldn't give anybody any moderating powers. They could go rouge.
Anyways, moderators are here to keep the sanity of this place. I know you aren't used to the yellow titles prowling around, but think that this is a good thing. Sure, there will be things you don't like, but it's not something to get all in a rage about. Just keep quiet, and move on.
We're here to help, and make sure EVERYONE is having a good time. Not just the experienced people. Even experienced people can be jerks too.
Not an entirely bad idea, but moderators can actually decide the "pseudo" mods on their own then. To be perfectly honest, if you find something that should be stickied/edited (in an existing sticky topic), you should PM a moderator. We will always read what you say, and at least think about it. We wont always reply, and it might not even be looked at immediately depending on what we are doing, but some people will stand out to moderators. I know there are people I look for due to various reasons, but that's just because it became apparent which ones were very helpful.
They still have the same standing as every other user, but I still look for them if I have PMs in my inbox or reports. Its simply because I expect their reports to be well made, or have good reason, and if they sent me a PM I think the same.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
I might add that the pseudo-mods could worsen the thinking of a forum hierarchy. Moderators are just regular users who keep things in check. We're not forum gods and goddesses, just like 'experienced' people are not better than anyone else. If we gave such a title to 'experienced' people, it would just blow up their egos even more.
But that's why they DON'T have any moderating powers. I'm saying that these 'pseudo-mods' have influence. That's it. No official powers or anything. All they can do is say, "Hey, TehPillowStar, me and a few other people think this should happen, what do you think?" And because they are trusted by the mods (not 100%, but enough to give them an opinion), their ideas and opinions should be taken into consideration more heavily than others.
Now, I'm probably going to be told that this is "just another elitist thing", but it's not. These 'psuedo-mods' have to EARN their position. Almost like a stepping stone to becoming a SecMod.
Beltir: Exactly. The already-standing mods select the people they trust, and so on and so forth.
Tehpillow: I don't understand where you're coming from with that. Care to explain? Sorry, just a bit tired.
But that's why they DON'T have any moderating powers. I'm saying that these 'pseudo-mods' have influence. That's it. No official powers or anything. All they can do is say, "Hey, TehPillowStar, me and a few other people think this should happen, what do you think?" And because they are trusted by the mods (not 100%, but enough to give them an opinion), their ideas and opinions should be taken into consideration more heavily than others.
Now, I'm probably going to be told that this is "just another elitist thing", but it's not. These 'psuedo-mods' have to EARN their position. Almost like a stepping stone to becoming a SecMod.
Any person who reports has influence. They influence where the justice will happen.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[12:41] Coffeeeeeee!
---
[16:29] "And lo, the tacos were delicious"
I might add that the pseudo-mods could worsen the thinking of a forum hierarchy. Moderators are just regular users who keep things in check. We're not forum gods and goddesses, just like 'experienced' people are not better than anyone else. If we gave such a title to 'experienced' people, it would just blow up their egos even more.
It's not to just 'experienced' people. It's for the people that Mods can trust. Alright, fine. Scratch the whole 'Experienced' thing. I'm trying to say that people that a handful of the mods can trust, has a chance of becoming a Pseudo-Mod.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
//VIRAL BEASTS\\ Go check it out. Or I'll get Absolete on your ass.
I do not know about other moderators, but I'll take anyone who contacts me for something into serious consideration if they have a legitimate request. I wouldn't need a handful of people, which you would consider psuedo-mods, when all members can contact / report.
Omeegosh ... This is simple!!!! If an RP is bad, don post in it if you're not going to join them, dot spam it with negative posts as this discourages many people including me! I posted so much topics in other sections but because of all the negative comments I get, I have reduced my RP skills and the speed rate of posting. And if they have work to do, gain DON'T spam it! Just sending them a helpful message will do! Light criticism is okay I guess, but not heavy ones.
Where's the respect other people deserve? Those who are discouraged should have respect too. Everyone is supposed to be equal in honor and respect level.. So don't discourage people just because they have a bad topic. Instead send them a cheery happy message.
I do believe all of you should just stop talking and realize: we don't need titles. Stingray, I'm glad you're in this as well as we all are, but they don't need titles. Just put the people into the stickied rules section. Just a... note, like erm...
----------------------
In the Roleplay section, we hold a group of veterans who have proven themselves not only intelligent and respected, but serious roleplayers who enjoy their time here. They have followed this subforum since it was in Fan Art, and even before then. This group holds no title, but they receive special recognition and otherwise "powers". They are here to help you, and here to walk anyone who wants to be walked, along.
Simply PM them or ask them if you need help, or even find them in a thread, and they will be happy to help you.
namehere
stingray
azilla
namehere
person
namehere
thatguy
I don't think you've been listening in to any of what we've said. We're kind to people. If anything, we give everyone respect. If they put forth effort to make a thread, we put forth effort to criticize, point out their flaws, and I even say, "Although this roleplay is a bit unseasoned and could use some work, I like the fact you brought it to our attention and made yourself out there. With some work, you could be somebody in Fan Art."
And I'm sure others can confirm that, if you believe I'm doing so only to make myself clear.
I haven't really been keeping up with all this, and I've chosen to stay out of it. I don't want to take sides as both have made good points, but to add to Absolete's last reply;
It's been friendly advise for the most part, but I have seen people raging over someone making an RP with little experience, so it isn't always nice.
I will say that half the time it's the newbies going crazy over friendly advice and criticism. I often see someone give out constructive criticism only to be accused of trolling. So sometimes it's the newbies who make themselves victims and exaggerate. This of course gives us " Fan Art Veterans " a bad name, or reputation for being too harsh, when in reality we're just giving constructive criticism.
This isn't always the case, however. Which is why I'm taking no sides.
sometimes it's the newbies who make themselves victims and exaggerate. This of course gives us " Fan Art Veterans " a bad name, or reputation for being too harsh, when in reality we're just giving constructive criticism.
Which was going to be my next point. As I said before, we have our bad moments, but we are really losing rep because of the new players thinking when I tell them to beef up their applications, get a better plot, or really anything, they think I'm trolling.
And as I have said, if you are going to help, go all the way and help. Only telling them to join other RPs is not nearly what it should be if you are claiming to be helpful. If someone calls you a troll for being helpful, report it. The function is there for a reason.
This rule is to allow everyone the right to post. Which is how it should be. If you think their thread will sink, but don't want to provide help on how to fix it, let it sink. This entire forum functions well based on survival of the fittest, including here. Another section that is similar to what it is like here is suggestions. Even though they have a guide for critics and a guide for suggesting, and both are commonly ignored by many users. None of them, however, go into a thread and tell them to look at the guides without providing help to the thread.
Generally, the reason we tell people to join other RP's before making their own is not because of experience, but more because they need to learn how a real RP works.
HOWEVER!
I don't think I've seen a time when someone said a RP wouldn't work JUST because they're new, while the RP itself is actually a good one. If that does and/or did happen, then the people that said to join other RP's in that case would be elitist.
It's darn simple, if you look at it analytically.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm always happy just 'cause there isn't a reason to be sad.
Don't take this as there is nothing that could cause sadness. I just mean it's pointless to dwell on it. I mean, depression is so boring.
The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
Join Date:
6/21/2011
Posts:
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Minecraft:
FearTheReaPR
Member Details
If there was a subforum made for the RPs thenI completly agree with Deadalready. We should have the Casual section, where the people who don't want to put in a lot of effort create them to where the RPers don't have to do much but one sentence posts. And then have the Advanced RP section, where the more advanced stories with a more thought out plot, a selective system, and posts that are about a paragraph or two.
This is of course just a suggestion, you make use it or throw it out.
I've already discussed this with them over IRC, and went into great detail. I had several good points, but as did they. Two sections will not be happening.
(The Shakespearian quote fit too well for me to not put it in.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm always happy just 'cause there isn't a reason to be sad.
Don't take this as there is nothing that could cause sadness. I just mean it's pointless to dwell on it. I mean, depression is so boring.
Also I am reading between the lines of a few people's posts, interpreting what I believe is being said, so I may misrepresent certain arguments. One thing I would like to elaborate on is what constitutes as "serious" and "non-serious" RPs, I'll tweak the wording and say "Casual" and "Regulated" another way to put it is Lightweight and Heavyweight roleplays.
Casual RPs
*Do not necessarily need a character sheet
*Have little or no rules
*Lighter world or story content
*Generally more free form
*Certain power gaming and over powering conventions are reasonable
*Have shorter posts or no post requirements
*Rarely have corrections or moderation
*Faster moving
Regulated RPs
*Depend on accurate character sheets
*Have strict posting rules to follow
*Indepth storylines
*Often have minimum post sizes
*Often require a certain maturity or experience to follow
*Often scripted or constructed in a certain way
*Moderated heavily by master storytellers
*Move far slower in comparison
So do these two differ enough to warrant a sub division? The major problems and plus arguments are mostly due to character sheets and slower RPs being buried by faster ones. For neatness sake I would like to see a subdivision but still think it's a case study scenario.
Stingray: That was a misreading on my part, so I apologize.
I do not disagree that helpful people are beneficial, but they should not have a title for being helpful.
The reason is the title would either be
Redundant: If your post is good, it should be read as such. The title shouldn't display that you are a better poster than others.
Fall to abuse: This isn't even about the people with the title necessarily. There are people that will read your word as law, and if you mess up, they will use it against others.
There will also be people who hate you just because you have a pseudo mod title. They will see you as abusing your title, whether you are or not.
In the end, its worked for other sections to not have titles, it should work for this section. If you spend enough time in certain sections, you will see the people that are usually helpful, and that should be enough. If someone bashes you, or calls you any form of back-seat moderator, you should report them. There is nothing wrong with enforcing the rules/helping.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
I completely agree with this. However, my line of thinking was that the 'pseudo-moderators' would have a say in the goings-on of the Section. Not able to make choices on their own, but have influence with the actual mods.
Again, all completely true. There again, it's just trusted and experienced members who have a say in what happens in that particular section.
Overall, I believe what I am trying to say, is that the 'pseudo-moderators' will have no official 'title', and that their influential position is known ONLY the the ACTUAL moderators, who respect and trust their opinions. Think of it like this:
Obviously, the highest respected people. No contest.
Moderators
A step above the SecMods (correct me if I'm wrong, Idk EVERY rank in the forums)
Sectional Mods
Control certain sections only, obviously.
'Pseudo-Moderators'
Have a certain amount of influence within the SecMods. Can't make ANY decisions on their own, and have to agree on proposition with a majority. Have no official powers.
Members
Everyone else.
Idk, This is just an idea I'm having. Take it into consideration or shoot it down, whichever.
Anyways, moderators are here to keep the sanity of this place. I know you aren't used to the yellow titles prowling around, but think that this is a good thing. Sure, there will be things you don't like, but it's not something to get all in a rage about. Just keep quiet, and move on.
We're here to help, and make sure EVERYONE is having a good time. Not just the experienced people. Even experienced people can be jerks too.
[12:41] Coffeeeeeee!
---
[16:29] "And lo, the tacos were delicious"
They still have the same standing as every other user, but I still look for them if I have PMs in my inbox or reports. Its simply because I expect their reports to be well made, or have good reason, and if they sent me a PM I think the same.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
[12:41] Coffeeeeeee!
---
[16:29] "And lo, the tacos were delicious"
Now, I'm probably going to be told that this is "just another elitist thing", but it's not. These 'psuedo-mods' have to EARN their position. Almost like a stepping stone to becoming a SecMod.
Beltir: Exactly. The already-standing mods select the people they trust, and so on and so forth.
Tehpillow: I don't understand where you're coming from with that. Care to explain? Sorry, just a bit tired.
Any person who reports has influence. They influence where the justice will happen.
[12:41] Coffeeeeeee!
---
[16:29] "And lo, the tacos were delicious"
It's not to just 'experienced' people. It's for the people that Mods can trust. Alright, fine. Scratch the whole 'Experienced' thing. I'm trying to say that people that a handful of the mods can trust, has a chance of becoming a Pseudo-Mod.
Where's the respect other people deserve? Those who are discouraged should have respect too. Everyone is supposed to be equal in honor and respect level.. So don't discourage people just because they have a bad topic. Instead send them a cheery happy message.
To me, words are more powerful than actions.
----------------------
I don't think you've been listening in to any of what we've said. We're kind to people. If anything, we give everyone respect. If they put forth effort to make a thread, we put forth effort to criticize, point out their flaws, and I even say, "Although this roleplay is a bit unseasoned and could use some work, I like the fact you brought it to our attention and made yourself out there. With some work, you could be somebody in Fan Art."
And I'm sure others can confirm that, if you believe I'm doing so only to make myself clear.
It's been friendly advise for the most part, but I have seen people raging over someone making an RP with little experience, so it isn't always nice.
I will say that half the time it's the newbies going crazy over friendly advice and criticism. I often see someone give out constructive criticism only to be accused of trolling. So sometimes it's the newbies who make themselves victims and exaggerate. This of course gives us " Fan Art Veterans " a bad name, or reputation for being too harsh, when in reality we're just giving constructive criticism.
This isn't always the case, however. Which is why I'm taking no sides.
Which was going to be my next point. As I said before, we have our bad moments, but we are really losing rep because of the new players thinking when I tell them to beef up their applications, get a better plot, or really anything, they think I'm trolling.
Which is incredibly silly.
This rule is to allow everyone the right to post. Which is how it should be. If you think their thread will sink, but don't want to provide help on how to fix it, let it sink. This entire forum functions well based on survival of the fittest, including here. Another section that is similar to what it is like here is suggestions. Even though they have a guide for critics and a guide for suggesting, and both are commonly ignored by many users. None of them, however, go into a thread and tell them to look at the guides without providing help to the thread.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
HOWEVER!
I don't think I've seen a time when someone said a RP wouldn't work JUST because they're new, while the RP itself is actually a good one. If that does and/or did happen, then the people that said to join other RP's in that case would be elitist.
It's darn simple, if you look at it analytically.
Don't take this as there is nothing that could cause sadness. I just mean it's pointless to dwell on it. I mean, depression is so boring.
This is of course just a suggestion, you make use it or throw it out.
To be, or not to be. That is the question.
(The Shakespearian quote fit too well for me to not put it in.)
Don't take this as there is nothing that could cause sadness. I just mean it's pointless to dwell on it. I mean, depression is so boring.