Hey there guys, so I've been talking about careers a lot currently with my girlfriend. I plan to go to college and a career field for computer programming. I'm just wondering about information about it. I looked it up a little but I didn't really find everything. I'm just wondering if it's a good field to go into. I have learned a tiny bit of Java and HTML and I found them to be extremely interesting. I also read somewhere that the average starting salary would be about $50,000, which would not be too shabby! I'm just wondering things like what kind of starting job I would expect to get after getting immediately out of college, what I should take when I go to college, things like that. I'd like to eventually get into the video game programming side of programming, also. If anything's unclear about this post, just let me know. I'm about to be in 11th grade, so I still have a little bit of time to decide what I really want to do. Any help or advice is appreciated!
I'm just wondering if it's a good field to go into.
Honestly it's probably one of the safer fields to get into, there's a ton of demand for it(which constantly is growing) and unlike something like medical there isn't a backlog of people trying to get jobs in it.
I also read somewhere that the average starting salary would be about $50,000, which would not be too shabby!
Depends on who hires you really, if you get a job at a small company they're gonna pay less than a big one. Game programmers average starting around 60k. A lot of other programming jobs pay quite a bit more than game dev though.
I'm just wondering things like what kind of starting job I would expect to get after getting immediately out of college,
That depends what you want to work on, do you want to go into web development? Application? You could end up writing for some library for Microsoft if you wanted, or anything like that, working for Google or some small business in your area. You're asking a very vague question that depends who is hiring in your area and for what.
I'd like to eventually get into the video game programming side of programming, also.
That's a hard job to get, especially in a big company. You have to really love your job because a good chunk of comp science graduates think game dev is some "fun" thing that requires no work, so they all put in apps for it. Companies are very selective and you're unlikely to get a job unless you put effort into teaching -yourself- how to make games. They like to see games you've made and stuff like that, which is a long process and a lot of learning.
If you want to be a game dev then thats a goal to aim for before you even start college. College is just paper, it won't teach you a whole lot about coding other than the basics. But knowing that is enough to get you into most programming jobs at least.
Ah okay, thanks. I think I'll get into learning programming again. I took a break because I felt like I was going nowhere with it. I felt like I was just doing stuff that I would never use. I have a major lack of motivation after I get bored haha. What is a good programming language to start with? Is Java still fine, or should I try C, C++, Python, etc?
Ah okay, thanks. I think I'll get into learning programming again. I took a break because I felt like I was going nowhere with it. I felt like I was just doing stuff that I would never use. I have a major lack of motivation after I get bored haha. What is a good programming language to start with? Is Java still fine, or should I try C, C++, Python, etc?
Java or Python is fine really.. I recommend C# but that's just me.
I will never know why people always want to be video game developers. Programming games is nothing like playing games, let me just say that. It's no more exciting than any other sort of programming. The industry also tends to be more stressful and doesn't pay any better. I know a few people who are doing game development, and it's neither exciting nor glamorous. Indeed, one of them ends up doing a lot of work for not very much pay.
There's way more demand for programmers well-versed in web application development, enterprise or not. There's not a company out there that doesn't want, for some reason or another, some sort of web application. If you know ASP.Net(with C# or VB.net)/Java/PHP, JavaScript, HTML, CSS, SQL, you'll have no problem getting a job. You should also study software design so you don't make a mess. Know what MVC is and how to properly implement it.
In all cases, what employers look for most is what projects you've done. Many employers will even overlook lack of education credentials if you've got impressive enough work in your portfolio. Independent programming projects look very good on a resume.
If you can get a Tomcat and MySQL server up, you can use Java to start making web applications. In addition to the languages listed above, you should familiarize yourself with commonly-used frameworks and libraries such as Struts or Spring and Hibernate. Learn how to build and parse XML documents so you can connect to outside web services. Make some forms, perform validation, do stuff based on user input, store stuff in a database. The possibilities are endless!
I will never know why people always want to be video game developers. Programming games is nothing like playing games,
Which is why SO many people apply for those jobs and don't even really want them, turnover rate is extremely high due to people not actually wanting to sit there and code 12 hours a day.
let me just say that. It's no more exciting than any other sort of programming.
Personally I don't agree here, at it's root game programming is of course, programming, but it isn't even remotely the same as developing a normal application. Almost every aspect from handling input, AI, graphics, sound, most of those things are either non-existant or severely toned down in a normal application. Not to mention they're event based instead of running in an infinite loop.
The industry also tends to be more stressful and doesn't pay any better.
Keep in mind there's a very big difference between working for a smaller company like Mojang or something or most indys than it is working at a big name company like Blizzard/Activision or something. You'll probably get a much better salary offer unless you get in with a very successful company, but you're probably gonna be the game dev equivalent of a code monkey(working extremely long hours with 200 other people.)
That said, I point it out usually, game developers work -much- harder than pretty much any other programmer and their pay is moderate at best, not bad by far(60k-120k) is a pretty good wage these days. But you could certainly make more in other fields.
I know a few people who are doing game development, and it's neither exciting nor glamorous. Indeed, one of them ends up doing a lot of work for not very much pay.
It's not exciting unless it's something you're interested in, even if you are interested in it, it's a lot of hard work.
Then again I don't know any programming jobs that are glamorous, if anything game developers get the most fanboyism these days due to how much people are interested in the product. If you say you work at Microsoft or Google or something, people could care less.
There's way more demand for programmers well-versed in web application development, enterprise or not. There's not a company out there that doesn't want, for some reason or another, some sort of web application. If you know ASP.Net(with C# or VB.net)/Java/PHP, JavaScript, HTML, CSS, SQL, you'll have no problem getting a job. You should also study software design so you don't make a mess. Know what MVC is and how to properly implement it.
I'm not sure why I always see you pushing web dev, it's a big field yes but it's also absurdly filled with people, there are probably 10x more web developers out there than application developers and web developers can fall anywhere from "code monkey" to "highly paid consultant." Not a small field by far.
I wouldn't go into web dev unless you're -interested- in it. Working with websites is very different from applications.
In all cases, what employers look for most is what projects you've done. Many employers will even overlook lack of education credentials if you've got impressive enough work in your portfolio. Independent programming projects look very good on a resume.
Which is why creating personal projects and getting an education is pretty much a one-two punch to getting a decent job to start with. Not to mention making your job easier when you actually know what you're doing.
I'm not sure why I always see you pushing web dev, it's a big field yes but it's also absurdly filled with people, there are probably 10x more web developers out there than application developers and web developers can fall anywhere from "code monkey" to "highly paid consultant." Not a small field by far.
It's because I am a web application programmer. There's an absolutely ridiculous number of web dev jobs out there. You barely even have to go looking in order to find tons of them.
Web programmers are a dime a dozen, yes, but good ones are harder to come by. There's tons of people in the field, but it's easy to distinguish yourself from the rabble.
99% chance you become a code monkey. Basically a wage slave, but with code.
That depends mostly on the size of the company or department you're in. Smaller companies/departments means you have more freedom and control; It's less likely that the design of the software is being laid out for you to implement.
In projects with a large team, then yeah, unless you're a lead in some fashion, you're not going to be making very many design decisions. You're merely implementing someone else's design, and it's a very boring job.
Remember, folks:
Programming = Extraordinarily boring and tedious work that isn't highly valued.
Software Design = Where all the fun and money is.
That applies to when you're creating new programs, anyways. Maintenance programming is a mixed bag, though is usually undervalued. Finding bugs and implementing fixes can range from interesting to infuriating. The hardest part of it, but also the most interesting, is studying the way the program currently works so you can find where some interaction is going wrong and then working to implement a fix within the context of the program. The infuriating part happens when the code you're supposed to be fixing is badly-written, and let me just say that there is no shortage of badly-written code out there.
Having to fix bugs in bad code does make for good stories, though. Good code simply isn't interesting to talk about (and usually doesn't contain as many bugs).
Would it be a bad career to be a Computer Hardware Engineer?
I ask because I am looking at something in computers for my future as well. I am more interested in hardware than code.
For the OP, Computer Science isn't THAT bad, but why not code machines or stuff that needs programming like robotic arms in factories or mechanical stuff?
I think that's only if you work for big companies.
In the Northeast US, $50k might even be on the low end for an entry-level (straight out of college) software engineer.
Personally, I went to a good school and received a Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science. The real key for me was taking a summer internship at a local software company, which eventually turned into a full-time job when I graduated. This company only employs about 100 software engineers and my starting pay was more than what Doctapper said. I've been working here for 4 years now, and we've since been bought out by a much larger company, but still employ the same amount of software engineers. I get annual pay raises and make about $10k more now than I did 4 years ago.
My employer mostly handles US and foreign government contracts to make mapping software for large military aircraft. I spent about 9 hours every day in front of my computer designing and coding various applications for our contracts.
My best friend from high school is also a software engineer. He didn't get a job right after college, but ended up working for a grocery store chain making software for their order processing systems (or something like that) and makes about $50k.
Why so negative about computer programming? I love programming in any form, because I find it fun! Everyone is saying it's tedious and boring, but I personally code as a hobby for hours on end, and don't get bored at all! Although, I have to admit, software/web design would probably be more fun.
Why so negative about computer programming? I love programming in any form, because I find it fun! Everyone is saying it's tedious and boring, but I personally code as a hobby for hours on end, and don't get bored at all! Although, I have to admit, software/web design would probably be more fun.
Because it's not fun when you're doing it 12 hours a day without any creative thought at all and might as well be stamping out code for minimal pay.
Why so negative about computer programming? I love programming in any form, because I find it fun! Everyone is saying it's tedious and boring, but I personally code as a hobby for hours on end, and don't get bored at all! Although, I have to admit, software/web design would probably be more fun.
Except take away your thoughts and ideas. Now your just programming somebody else's thing for hours upon hours. You'll have better luck with a smaller team, I would assume.
Guess not, I'd much prefer to develop indie stuff, since it's so much funner and more creative, even if it might not pay as much.
If you think that's how developing indie stuff is, you need a reality check.
Developing EVERYTHING is this way. Indie, corporate, franchised, outsourced, everything.
Everything.
All of it.
100%.
No exclusions or exceptions.
If anything, developing indie is far worse. No vacation time, no benefits, no salary (or if it is, it's low), long periods of nothing to do, living paycheck to paycheck.
Not to mention on an indie team, you have fewer people to finish a task, making it take longer and strain yourselves more, meaning more work and more stress.
If you think that's how developing indie stuff is, you need a reality check.
Developing EVERYTHING is this way. Indie, corporate, franchised, outsourced, everything.
Everything.
All of it.
100%.
No exclusions or exceptions.
If anything, developing indie is far worse. No vacation time, no benefits, no salary (or if it is, it's low), long periods of nothing to do, living paycheck to paycheck.
Not to mention on an indie team, you have fewer people to finish a task, making it take longer and strain yourselves more, meaning more work and more stress.
Boy golly gee howdy, that sounds like fun.
I'm not.. sure where you get the idea that all coding jobs are like that.
If you think that's how developing indie stuff is, you need a reality check.
Developing EVERYTHING is this way. Indie, corporate, franchised, outsourced, everything.
Everything.
All of it.
100%.
No exclusions or exceptions.
If anything, developing indie is far worse. No vacation time, no benefits, no salary (or if it is, it's low), long periods of nothing to do, living paycheck to paycheck.
Not to mention on an indie team, you have fewer people to finish a task, making it take longer and strain yourselves more, meaning more work and more stress.
Boy golly gee howdy, that sounds like fun.
No vacation time? Since when? As a small-scale indie developer you can work whatever hours you want! I'm not saying as a full time career, but more as a little trickle of income on the side. In such a situation I wouldn't be aiming for any speedy conclusions or release dates, just working to my own time.
No vacation time? Since when? As a small-scale indie developer you can work whatever hours you want! I'm not saying as a full time career, but more as a little trickle of income on the side. In such a situation I wouldn't be aiming for any speedy conclusions or release dates, just working to my own time.
I think you're confusing indie developer with hobby developer.
An actual indie developer trying to make money to live off of, is going to be forcing themselves to work at least 8 hours a day, likely quite a bit more. Indie is also a very generic word, it can mean a one man team throwing out iPhone games to barely live off of, or it could mean a company like Mojang, or Wolfire, or quite a few other companies out there. That said they are small -companies- and often work just as hard as a larger one would.
I would say working on a one man team is a bit of a waste of time, unless you end up lucky like Notch you probably won't make much, then you really will be working hellish hours for no reward. Unlike a moderate sized indie team or a studio, where you're likely to get paid -very- well for being a programmer.
Feel free to check out my channel!
My current setup:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/Q7wqf7
Honestly it's probably one of the safer fields to get into, there's a ton of demand for it(which constantly is growing) and unlike something like medical there isn't a backlog of people trying to get jobs in it.
Depends on who hires you really, if you get a job at a small company they're gonna pay less than a big one. Game programmers average starting around 60k. A lot of other programming jobs pay quite a bit more than game dev though.
That depends what you want to work on, do you want to go into web development? Application? You could end up writing for some library for Microsoft if you wanted, or anything like that, working for Google or some small business in your area. You're asking a very vague question that depends who is hiring in your area and for what.
Whatever your counselor suggests to get a bachelors in computer science.
That's a hard job to get, especially in a big company. You have to really love your job because a good chunk of comp science graduates think game dev is some "fun" thing that requires no work, so they all put in apps for it. Companies are very selective and you're unlikely to get a job unless you put effort into teaching -yourself- how to make games. They like to see games you've made and stuff like that, which is a long process and a lot of learning.
If you want to be a game dev then thats a goal to aim for before you even start college. College is just paper, it won't teach you a whole lot about coding other than the basics. But knowing that is enough to get you into most programming jobs at least.
Feel free to check out my channel!
My current setup:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/Q7wqf7
Java or Python is fine really.. I recommend C# but that's just me.
There's way more demand for programmers well-versed in web application development, enterprise or not. There's not a company out there that doesn't want, for some reason or another, some sort of web application. If you know ASP.Net(with C# or VB.net)/Java/PHP, JavaScript, HTML, CSS, SQL, you'll have no problem getting a job. You should also study software design so you don't make a mess. Know what MVC is and how to properly implement it.
In all cases, what employers look for most is what projects you've done. Many employers will even overlook lack of education credentials if you've got impressive enough work in your portfolio. Independent programming projects look very good on a resume.
If you can get a Tomcat and MySQL server up, you can use Java to start making web applications. In addition to the languages listed above, you should familiarize yourself with commonly-used frameworks and libraries such as Struts or Spring and Hibernate. Learn how to build and parse XML documents so you can connect to outside web services. Make some forms, perform validation, do stuff based on user input, store stuff in a database. The possibilities are endless!
Which is why SO many people apply for those jobs and don't even really want them, turnover rate is extremely high due to people not actually wanting to sit there and code 12 hours a day.
Personally I don't agree here, at it's root game programming is of course, programming, but it isn't even remotely the same as developing a normal application. Almost every aspect from handling input, AI, graphics, sound, most of those things are either non-existant or severely toned down in a normal application. Not to mention they're event based instead of running in an infinite loop.
Keep in mind there's a very big difference between working for a smaller company like Mojang or something or most indys than it is working at a big name company like Blizzard/Activision or something. You'll probably get a much better salary offer unless you get in with a very successful company, but you're probably gonna be the game dev equivalent of a code monkey(working extremely long hours with 200 other people.)
That said, I point it out usually, game developers work -much- harder than pretty much any other programmer and their pay is moderate at best, not bad by far(60k-120k) is a pretty good wage these days. But you could certainly make more in other fields.
It's not exciting unless it's something you're interested in, even if you are interested in it, it's a lot of hard work.
Then again I don't know any programming jobs that are glamorous, if anything game developers get the most fanboyism these days due to how much people are interested in the product. If you say you work at Microsoft or Google or something, people could care less.
I'm not sure why I always see you pushing web dev, it's a big field yes but it's also absurdly filled with people, there are probably 10x more web developers out there than application developers and web developers can fall anywhere from "code monkey" to "highly paid consultant." Not a small field by far.
I wouldn't go into web dev unless you're -interested- in it. Working with websites is very different from applications.
Which is why creating personal projects and getting an education is pretty much a one-two punch to getting a decent job to start with. Not to mention making your job easier when you actually know what you're doing.
It's because I am a web application programmer. There's an absolutely ridiculous number of web dev jobs out there. You barely even have to go looking in order to find tons of them.
Web programmers are a dime a dozen, yes, but good ones are harder to come by. There's tons of people in the field, but it's easy to distinguish yourself from the rabble.
99% chance you become a code monkey. Basically a wage slave, but with code.
That depends mostly on the size of the company or department you're in. Smaller companies/departments means you have more freedom and control; It's less likely that the design of the software is being laid out for you to implement.
In projects with a large team, then yeah, unless you're a lead in some fashion, you're not going to be making very many design decisions. You're merely implementing someone else's design, and it's a very boring job.
Remember, folks:
Programming = Extraordinarily boring and tedious work that isn't highly valued.
Software Design = Where all the fun and money is.
That applies to when you're creating new programs, anyways. Maintenance programming is a mixed bag, though is usually undervalued. Finding bugs and implementing fixes can range from interesting to infuriating. The hardest part of it, but also the most interesting, is studying the way the program currently works so you can find where some interaction is going wrong and then working to implement a fix within the context of the program. The infuriating part happens when the code you're supposed to be fixing is badly-written, and let me just say that there is no shortage of badly-written code out there.
Having to fix bugs in bad code does make for good stories, though. Good code simply isn't interesting to talk about (and usually doesn't contain as many bugs).
I ask because I am looking at something in computers for my future as well. I am more interested in hardware than code.
For the OP, Computer Science isn't THAT bad, but why not code machines or stuff that needs programming like robotic arms in factories or mechanical stuff?
Personally, I went to a good school and received a Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science. The real key for me was taking a summer internship at a local software company, which eventually turned into a full-time job when I graduated. This company only employs about 100 software engineers and my starting pay was more than what Doctapper said. I've been working here for 4 years now, and we've since been bought out by a much larger company, but still employ the same amount of software engineers. I get annual pay raises and make about $10k more now than I did 4 years ago.
My employer mostly handles US and foreign government contracts to make mapping software for large military aircraft. I spent about 9 hours every day in front of my computer designing and coding various applications for our contracts.
My best friend from high school is also a software engineer. He didn't get a job right after college, but ended up working for a grocery store chain making software for their order processing systems (or something like that) and makes about $50k.
Even the middleground between entry level/low end and midrange start at just over 28-29k.
What northeast US are you living in?
Because it's not fun when you're doing it 12 hours a day without any creative thought at all and might as well be stamping out code for minimal pay.
Except take away your thoughts and ideas. Now your just programming somebody else's thing for hours upon hours. You'll have better luck with a smaller team, I would assume.
Guess not, I'd much prefer to develop indie stuff, since it's so much funner and more creative, even if it might not pay as much.
Developing EVERYTHING is this way. Indie, corporate, franchised, outsourced, everything.
Everything.
All of it.
100%.
No exclusions or exceptions.
If anything, developing indie is far worse. No vacation time, no benefits, no salary (or if it is, it's low), long periods of nothing to do, living paycheck to paycheck.
Not to mention on an indie team, you have fewer people to finish a task, making it take longer and strain yourselves more, meaning more work and more stress.
Boy golly gee howdy, that sounds like fun.
I'm not.. sure where you get the idea that all coding jobs are like that.
Because they aren't.
No vacation time? Since when? As a small-scale indie developer you can work whatever hours you want! I'm not saying as a full time career, but more as a little trickle of income on the side. In such a situation I wouldn't be aiming for any speedy conclusions or release dates, just working to my own time.
I think you're confusing indie developer with hobby developer.
An actual indie developer trying to make money to live off of, is going to be forcing themselves to work at least 8 hours a day, likely quite a bit more. Indie is also a very generic word, it can mean a one man team throwing out iPhone games to barely live off of, or it could mean a company like Mojang, or Wolfire, or quite a few other companies out there. That said they are small -companies- and often work just as hard as a larger one would.
I would say working on a one man team is a bit of a waste of time, unless you end up lucky like Notch you probably won't make much, then you really will be working hellish hours for no reward. Unlike a moderate sized indie team or a studio, where you're likely to get paid -very- well for being a programmer.