This would take a lot of resources, but what if you made your walls up to the sky limit -3 then put lava on the top 3 layers. That way you couldn't place any blocks on the lava to stop the flow and you can't go over it. What do you guys think?
I see some problems with this:
1.Not exactly subtle. Anyone wandering around would see the wall before it was half way done.
2.Not quick to build. Pillaring up 64 blocks at about two blocks a second(guesstimate, not actually measured)takes slightly more than half a minute, and you need to do it every block of the length and width.
3.Ineffective at it's intended purpose. Experience as a miner has shown that you can still place blocks on the bottom of a lava pool if you can place blocks that far. Presumably you could do the same with the wall and make an umbrella while you dig through.
4.Vulnerable to sabotage during construction. Like 1. and 2. , with the added detriment that any way for the pillarer to get down is easily removed.
In short, lovely idea, bad in practice.
Edit: Say, I've heard about a "piston monorail" that uses pistons to travel long distances alongside a rapidly pulsing wire. Pistons can push 12 blocks ahead of them, plus infinite players. Could these be used as a cheaper alternative to minecarts?(FOr a compact monorail design: 1 pulsar to flash the wires. 15 redstone dust, plus 3 repeaters, per 16 blocks. One normal and one sticky piston, for the car. Maybe 2 sticky pistons, plus 2 obsidian blocks at the ends of the track, for 2 way design? Hauling
capacity per car: 12 blocks, infinite players.Probably 12 minecart tracks with storage carts.)
Stamina:when and when not to run.
Bow charging:a plus to attacking from above.
Villages:useful for defense, hiding resources, and possibly offense? And pillage or befriend?
Dungeons?
Too bad some things only naturally spawn in new areas.
Hardcore- A now meaningless word abused and stretched by countless servers due to removal of tnt, allowing of protection, or other general wussying out of fighting.
1. PvP is only at it's best when it is unadulterated. No mods that water it down, no fancy rules that make gray areas for people to argue over.
2. If PvP is changed in any way, with maybe the exception of protecting a spawntown, it is not full, or hardcore, PvP.
3. Teams should be encouraged to try to dominate a server. If you have a team that is so strong it destroys almost all competition, only the strongest of competition will survive in the server (see natural selection and evolution). This will cause the overall skill level of the server to rise.
4. Moderators should build nothing that doesn't strictly have a purpose. Moderators should only be chosen of the most trusted players regardless of their competence with redstone.
A server that has a "No soft spot" policy breeds the strongest PvP community. Players should learn from their mistakes and become stronger, or give up and leave the server to those more dedicated to achieving their goals.
Say, I've heard about a "piston monorail" that uses pistons to travel long distances alongside a rapidly pulsing wire. Pistons can push 12 blocks ahead of them, plus infinite players. Could these be used as a cheaper alternative to minecarts?(FOr a compact monorail design: 1 pulsar to flash the wires. 15 redstone dust, plus 3 repeaters, per 16 blocks. One normal and one sticky piston, for the car. Maybe 2 sticky pistons, plus 2 obsidian blocks at the ends of the track, for 2 way design? Hauling capacity per car: 12 blocks, infinite players.Probably 12 minecart tracks with storage carts.)
Sky fortresses aren't effective. They are extremely obvious and are waiting to be shot at from someones hill battery. Also, any means of access to it are easy,important target.
Really? Underground Launchers would seem to be the way to go, if TNT is in abundance. With the new sticky pistons, the muzzle of the launcher can be camo'ed easily and still be able to transport. As for getting down, use a natural lake nearby.
I am Creating a humorous parody of the art of war (march in straight lines, have your leader always ride a pig...) BorDr's book of tactics
Also, I have a serious idea. In minecraft, we have trained ourselves to listen for the sounds of mobs. we, also, unintentionally heightened our senses of other sounds. perhaps you could put a loop of doors opening and closing (or music blocks) to distract a player? their could be tnt behind a wall the player is trying to investigate. If the enemy breaks a block, a redstone inverter (is that what it is called?) could activate the tnt.
Cocoa beans and saddles are (currently) only obtainable by raiding dungeons, spawners are immobile and the distribution appears to be fairly random. It would be somewhat similar to most diamonds wins but harder to grind. The problem is keeping track of who has what.
I am Creating a humorous parody of the art of war (march in straight lines, have your leader always ride a pig...) BorDr's book of tactics
Also, I have a serious idea. In minecraft, we have trained ourselves to listen for the sounds of mobs. we, also, unintentionally heightened our senses of other sounds. perhaps you could put a loop of doors opening and closing (or music blocks) to distract a player? their could be tnt behind a wall the player is trying to investigate. If the enemy breaks a block, a redstone inverter (is that what it is called?) could activate the tnt.
Noisemakers have been mentioned. It doesn't serve much of a purpose other than being a **** to the other team, since no one is going to put "stopping that ****ing clicking noise" over "defending the fort against enemy attack."
The fact that spawners are unobtainable means that you have to maintain land.
Diamond ore can be moved with pistons, so if your block gets destroyed you can eventually replace it. Spawners can't be moved, but there are more than two (double/surface) dungeons in the world (multiple flags?). If you lose yours, you have to move to find another one.
In minecraft's current state, a real war in which tactics such as shown and discussed in the thread is unattainable. The uses and situations we have discussed and argued are all theory and hypothetical. Pvp and raiding bases for loot are of course possible, but not a full scale war. It won't happen with the hardcore aspect that people believe in, as people simply raid. People then try to put in rules that are not only hard to enforce and leading to controversy, but limatations as such provide a sort of "pseudo" aspect.
Minecraft as it is, is simply not the game for this type of warfare. I understand the amazing warfare people want, but it is not here. To be honest, I don't think that game is out there yet. Game developers aren't yet able to grasp this type this aspect of "infinite options". Rather, people who make the games and the bulk of their communities are still a bit caught in the finite aspects. They think its awesome that there are "So many weapons and maps to choose", when it would be better if you could design your own sword (Not just cosmetically, it's practical structure too) or fully design/build your own base, which would allow a practically infinite amount of choices, and you can strive to design the best sword.
A self created war that we have been discussing for pages and pages would probably need its own videogame. The concept that minecraft beholds which allows for at least discussion of the warfare is part of that infinite aspect. How every block and item is its own entity and only reacts to adjacent forces. This allows for application of these entities which together form bases, tnt cannons, traps and whatnot.
However, the reason minecraft is not suitable for this type of war is that the type of entities are pretty limited and generally because notch didn't design this game around the potential for war. For example, the only real entities that exist are solid blocks, falling blocks, tnt, lava, water, redstone, pistons, doors, and switches. With only these entities, the things you can do in war are pretty limited. There isn't much more weaponry than cannons, and there isnt much more armor than liquid walls, obsidian, and piston walls.
The way notch didn't design this game around war is where the objective issues come in. With nothing to gain but items and the only penalty of death being cleaned and sent to spawn, there is no center of force. The entities that do exist cannot be used to full potential.
Of course, this only applies to the game as it is. If notch starts looking at us, or some tech comes out with some really heavy mods, minecraft may have the potential to have this war.
I envision a game that can hold this war, and it would have some of these key things:
-Solid win/lose aspect.
- Match making (With parties and such for clans and friends)
- Independent physics (Minecraft has this to a degree, and that's why this thread is here)
- Item making with using independent physics
- Multiple modes for logistical purposes.
-Direct base vs. base warfare
- Your own base can be damaged in individual wars, but is reset (As in repaired, not deleted) after wars/battles.
If any of you are interested, I could elaborate into detail.
Either way though this thread is a gem. It demonstrates how much a video game can accomplish and it also shows how the "infinite" aspect can be used to create a game in itself.
The main problem of warfare in minecraft IS the fact that minecraft isnt supposed to be a war game. What you are describing is a first or third person shooter(mostly). In fact, I think Minecraft contains too many real life concepts. But, that doesnt mean warfare is nonexistent. The only objective for war are for people you hate. So, warfare in minecraft cant use conventional tactics which are mostly described in this post, but unconventional tactics such as those used by Native Americans. When some other tribe kills one of your own, steals from you, builds on your turf, or destroys your property, you go and revenge raid them. In turn, they will do the same. So you have raids and revenge raids until either you destroy, steal, and grief the enemy so much that the enemy is not a threat, or you pummel them enough to get a truce, treaty, or even an alliance. The tactics listed in this thread are too hard core for this game. In summary, you are partially correct, and half of the first posts by Vmaxx are mostly obsolete, only the defences and such only partially useful for defense.Also, you would need another game.
On your point of saying that resettable structures dont exist is a load of crap. Its called you make a world for a server and reload the world with this default one and make custom server software to do this kind of thing smoother. You should try looking at the old classic ctf servers, like Jacob's CTF. That sort of thing that is optimized for Beta would definitly be very cool.
The main problem of warfare in minecraft IS the fact that minecraft isnt supposed to be a war game. What you are describing is a first or third person shooter(mostly). In fact, I think Minecraft contains too many real life concepts. But, that doesnt mean warfare is nonexistent. The only objective for war are for people you hate. So, warfare in minecraft cant use conventional tactics which are mostly described in this post, but unconventional tactics such as those used by Native Americans. When some other tribe kills one of your own, steals from you, builds on your turf, or destroys your property, you go and revenge raid them. In turn, they will do the same. So you have raids and revenge raids until either you destroy, steal, and grief the enemy so much that the enemy is not a threat, or you pummel them enough to get a truce, treaty, or even an alliance. The tactics listed in this thread are too hard core for this game. In summary, you are partially correct, and half of the first posts by Vmaxx are mostly obsolete, only the defences and such only partially useful for defense.Also, you would need another game.
On your point of saying that resettable structures dont exist is a load of crap. Its called you make a world for a server and reload the world with this default one and make custom server software to do this kind of thing smoother. You should try looking at the old classic ctf servers, like Jacob's CTF. That sort of thing that is optimized for Beta would definitly be very cool.
I know you can do that with servers, but I was thinking more along the lines of a more user friendly style. The base building mode would indeed be just like minecraft, building your base on an open map and saving it. But the difference would be that when battle came, it would basically get the two bases and paste them down x distance apart on a map.
The game I envision is really taking 1st person shooter elements (Mostly the logistical ones, such as match-making, parties, spawning and direct objective) and mixing them with a refined version of minecraft's physical elements (Material base smaller than blocks, being able to make items that are applications of physics as opposed to fixed recipes, and more types of materials to work with)
I would say that the logistical elements I envision can probably be done with minecraft, but it obviously is not user friendly, and cannot be done professionally enough for a large enough player base.
This game should be either a console or pc game, and it would need to be made by a company with a high enough reputation that it would sell at least 200,000 copies (Doesn't have to be that much week of release of course) which would probably be enough for a sufficient player base. Remember that the other difficulty of minecraft war was that people would be offline and there wasn't enough people. With a dedicated, user friendly game, you can invite your friends that are on and jump right in, provided that you are prepared.
Hey VMax: Your Cage is obsolete now. Unless you redesign it (which is what I am trying to do), it is very easy to get out of. For 1, TNT doesn't blow when you hit it anymore. 2, if you put a block in the ceiling so that the ceiling is level, SoulSand doesn't trap you. So I will let you know if I think of a way to cacel these negatives out, but I think for the most part, the Cage is obsolete with Minecraft as it is.
I don't understand your reasons for the cage being obsolete, the reason the TNT blew up was because you landed on a pressure plate covered TNT, not because you hit it or anything. Also, to be able to put a block in the ceiling, you'd have to break the redstone torch... which is always a bad idea because it can be linked to a large number of traps. Most recently I thought of (since it's suposed to be underground, linked to a 4 way interesection) a trap where if you break the redstone torch, it blocks of all 4 exiits with pistons, and drops lava into the cage.
I built a Cubic Chunks mod (see my sig). Anyone have ideas on how Cubic Chunks (and 4096-block tall maps) might impact warfare?
Obviously:
1. Aerial attacks will be able to come from much higher up.
2. Sky bases gain new possibility, as they can be built at the unfindable y=1024 or even higher; with improved skylight calculations, that wouldn't cast a shadow.
3. Secret underground bases can be built at y=-1024 or even lower; good luck finding that, even with nametags.
Dark, that's not what I'm going at. I didn't mean more content. That is what we don't want. I was not going at javelins and those weird flying machine mods and stuff, it was mainly the fact that there is really no objective, and even if its possible on mineraft, it would be better on its own game.
More recipes is a bad thing. It just hands it over to you. There is no innovation to simply giving you things that might be stronger, but more costly, or what not. Physics wise, I was going more along the lines of entities more precise than blocks, and more things that can be applied. It's hard to explain.
I disagree. Who says you need a physical objective to wage war? My clan fights ONA constantly (or tries to) on PPU (when it's up). Why? Because we want to prove we can. And we use spies and such, but our warfare isn't only raids. We could easily (once we find ONA's base) set up cannons on a hill (natural or artificial) and fire at their base until there is a hole big enough for us to storm them. We could even get Redcoat skins, grab some bows and arrows, and march in like in the Revolutionary War. Of course, history has shown us that that doesn't work to well. So we could also has snipers in the background, fighting small guerilla wars of their own troops that are in their camps or stationed in cities.
Of course, most PvP servers don't have enough people to simulate a real war, with citizens and whatnot. But I am sure that if someone started a project *coughcoughPhoenizandVmaxcoughcough* like that, it could work. Find 2 huge clans** and have them spend maybe 1 month IRL building HUGE cities that are connected via road or rail and then start the war. Maybe even do a scenario. Why? Not to get a mob spawner or a sponge. Because it's FUN. When does it end? When it gets boring. Who says when you ended your SSP world? YOU. So why should someone else say when you're done with your SMP world? There's not that much difference.
Voloder2
**Maybe get a Freebuild clan and a PvP clan and have them work together. Or TWO Freebuild and TWO PvP. However many you want, really.
Those things you mentioned, did any of them actually happen?
Its easy to picture situations, such as firing cannons and marching in and such, but one can only get the full effect if that is the practical way to go. Of course you are doing it for fun, not a sponge/spawner, but those things are guides that allow you to test your abilities; to build fortifications and cannons that are best to defend your base and penetrate the opponent's walls and get their sponge. It gives reason to your cannons and makes it fun to use. It gives you the feeling "Wait until we use this cannon. It will take us right through their walls, heh heh".
When you played capture the flag when you were a kid (Whether you actually did or not) , you weren't playing for the marked paper plate, but if it wasn't there, the game would be pretty awkwardly played.
However, the reason minecraft is not suitable for this type of war is that the type of entities are pretty limited and generally because notch didn't design this game around the potential for war. For example, the only real entities that exist are solid blocks, falling blocks, tnt, lava, water, redstone, pistons, doors, and switches. With only these entities, the things you can do in war are pretty limited. There isn't much more weaponry than cannons, and there isnt much more armor than liquid walls, obsidian, and piston walls.
The way notch didn't design this game around war is where the objective issues come in. With nothing to gain but items and the only penalty of death being cleaned and sent to spawn, there is no center of force. The entities that do exist cannot be used to full potential.
Read up. It's a mod suggestion thread, but then, who wants to have war stuff on minecraft all the time? And not everyone wants to fight all the time. So it seems best to implement as a mod.
I see some problems with this:
1.Not exactly subtle. Anyone wandering around would see the wall before it was half way done.
2.Not quick to build. Pillaring up 64 blocks at about two blocks a second(guesstimate, not actually measured)takes slightly more than half a minute, and you need to do it every block of the length and width.
3.Ineffective at it's intended purpose. Experience as a miner has shown that you can still place blocks on the bottom of a lava pool if you can place blocks that far. Presumably you could do the same with the wall and make an umbrella while you dig through.
4.Vulnerable to sabotage during construction. Like 1. and 2. , with the added detriment that any way for the pillarer to get down is easily removed.
In short, lovely idea, bad in practice.
Edit: Say, I've heard about a "piston monorail" that uses pistons to travel long distances alongside a rapidly pulsing wire. Pistons can push 12 blocks ahead of them, plus infinite players. Could these be used as a cheaper alternative to minecarts?(FOr a compact monorail design: 1 pulsar to flash the wires. 15 redstone dust, plus 3 repeaters, per 16 blocks. One normal and one sticky piston, for the car. Maybe 2 sticky pistons, plus 2 obsidian blocks at the ends of the track, for 2 way design? Hauling
capacity per car: 12 blocks, infinite players.Probably 12 minecart tracks with storage carts.)
Stamina:when and when not to run.
Bow charging:a plus to attacking from above.
Villages:useful for defense, hiding resources, and possibly offense? And pillage or befriend?
Dungeons?
Too bad some things only naturally spawn in new areas.
No comment?
Ahh, what the hey.
Really? Underground Launchers would seem to be the way to go, if TNT is in abundance. With the new sticky pistons, the muzzle of the launcher can be camo'ed easily and still be able to transport. As for getting down, use a natural lake nearby.
Also, I have a serious idea. In minecraft, we have trained ourselves to listen for the sounds of mobs. we, also, unintentionally heightened our senses of other sounds. perhaps you could put a loop of doors opening and closing (or music blocks) to distract a player? their could be tnt behind a wall the player is trying to investigate. If the enemy breaks a block, a redstone inverter (is that what it is called?) could activate the tnt.
Noisemakers have been mentioned. It doesn't serve much of a purpose other than being a **** to the other team, since no one is going to put "stopping that ****ing clicking noise" over "defending the fort against enemy attack."
https://secure.worldcommunitygrid.org/index.jsp
Diamond ore can be moved with pistons, so if your block gets destroyed you can eventually replace it. Spawners can't be moved, but there are more than two (double/surface) dungeons in the world (multiple flags?). If you lose yours, you have to move to find another one.
In minecraft's current state, a real war in which tactics such as shown and discussed in the thread is unattainable. The uses and situations we have discussed and argued are all theory and hypothetical. Pvp and raiding bases for loot are of course possible, but not a full scale war. It won't happen with the hardcore aspect that people believe in, as people simply raid. People then try to put in rules that are not only hard to enforce and leading to controversy, but limatations as such provide a sort of "pseudo" aspect.
Minecraft as it is, is simply not the game for this type of warfare. I understand the amazing warfare people want, but it is not here. To be honest, I don't think that game is out there yet. Game developers aren't yet able to grasp this type this aspect of "infinite options". Rather, people who make the games and the bulk of their communities are still a bit caught in the finite aspects. They think its awesome that there are "So many weapons and maps to choose", when it would be better if you could design your own sword (Not just cosmetically, it's practical structure too) or fully design/build your own base, which would allow a practically infinite amount of choices, and you can strive to design the best sword.
A self created war that we have been discussing for pages and pages would probably need its own videogame. The concept that minecraft beholds which allows for at least discussion of the warfare is part of that infinite aspect. How every block and item is its own entity and only reacts to adjacent forces. This allows for application of these entities which together form bases, tnt cannons, traps and whatnot.
However, the reason minecraft is not suitable for this type of war is that the type of entities are pretty limited and generally because notch didn't design this game around the potential for war. For example, the only real entities that exist are solid blocks, falling blocks, tnt, lava, water, redstone, pistons, doors, and switches. With only these entities, the things you can do in war are pretty limited. There isn't much more weaponry than cannons, and there isnt much more armor than liquid walls, obsidian, and piston walls.
The way notch didn't design this game around war is where the objective issues come in. With nothing to gain but items and the only penalty of death being cleaned and sent to spawn, there is no center of force. The entities that do exist cannot be used to full potential.
Of course, this only applies to the game as it is. If notch starts looking at us, or some tech comes out with some really heavy mods, minecraft may have the potential to have this war.
I envision a game that can hold this war, and it would have some of these key things:
-Solid win/lose aspect.
- Match making (With parties and such for clans and friends)
- Independent physics (Minecraft has this to a degree, and that's why this thread is here)
- Item making with using independent physics
- Multiple modes for logistical purposes.
-Direct base vs. base warfare
- Your own base can be damaged in individual wars, but is reset (As in repaired, not deleted) after wars/battles.
If any of you are interested, I could elaborate into detail.
Either way though this thread is a gem. It demonstrates how much a video game can accomplish and it also shows how the "infinite" aspect can be used to create a game in itself.
The main problem of warfare in minecraft IS the fact that minecraft isnt supposed to be a war game. What you are describing is a first or third person shooter(mostly). In fact, I think Minecraft contains too many real life concepts. But, that doesnt mean warfare is nonexistent. The only objective for war are for people you hate. So, warfare in minecraft cant use conventional tactics which are mostly described in this post, but unconventional tactics such as those used by Native Americans. When some other tribe kills one of your own, steals from you, builds on your turf, or destroys your property, you go and revenge raid them. In turn, they will do the same. So you have raids and revenge raids until either you destroy, steal, and grief the enemy so much that the enemy is not a threat, or you pummel them enough to get a truce, treaty, or even an alliance. The tactics listed in this thread are too hard core for this game. In summary, you are partially correct, and half of the first posts by Vmaxx are mostly obsolete, only the defences and such only partially useful for defense.Also, you would need another game.
On your point of saying that resettable structures dont exist is a load of crap. Its called you make a world for a server and reload the world with this default one and make custom server software to do this kind of thing smoother. You should try looking at the old classic ctf servers, like Jacob's CTF. That sort of thing that is optimized for Beta would definitly be very cool.
I know you can do that with servers, but I was thinking more along the lines of a more user friendly style. The base building mode would indeed be just like minecraft, building your base on an open map and saving it. But the difference would be that when battle came, it would basically get the two bases and paste them down x distance apart on a map.
The game I envision is really taking 1st person shooter elements (Mostly the logistical ones, such as match-making, parties, spawning and direct objective) and mixing them with a refined version of minecraft's physical elements (Material base smaller than blocks, being able to make items that are applications of physics as opposed to fixed recipes, and more types of materials to work with)
I would say that the logistical elements I envision can probably be done with minecraft, but it obviously is not user friendly, and cannot be done professionally enough for a large enough player base.
This game should be either a console or pc game, and it would need to be made by a company with a high enough reputation that it would sell at least 200,000 copies (Doesn't have to be that much week of release of course) which would probably be enough for a sufficient player base. Remember that the other difficulty of minecraft war was that people would be offline and there wasn't enough people. With a dedicated, user friendly game, you can invite your friends that are on and jump right in, provided that you are prepared.
I don't understand your reasons for the cage being obsolete, the reason the TNT blew up was because you landed on a pressure plate covered TNT, not because you hit it or anything. Also, to be able to put a block in the ceiling, you'd have to break the redstone torch... which is always a bad idea because it can be linked to a large number of traps. Most recently I thought of (since it's suposed to be underground, linked to a 4 way interesection) a trap where if you break the redstone torch, it blocks of all 4 exiits with pistons, and drops lava into the cage.
Obviously:
1. Aerial attacks will be able to come from much higher up.
2. Sky bases gain new possibility, as they can be built at the unfindable y=1024 or even higher; with improved skylight calculations, that wouldn't cast a shadow.
3. Secret underground bases can be built at y=-1024 or even lower; good luck finding that, even with nametags.
Any other thoughts?
Mah Eyezzzz
More recipes is a bad thing. It just hands it over to you. There is no innovation to simply giving you things that might be stronger, but more costly, or what not. Physics wise, I was going more along the lines of entities more precise than blocks, and more things that can be applied. It's hard to explain.
Those things you mentioned, did any of them actually happen?
Its easy to picture situations, such as firing cannons and marching in and such, but one can only get the full effect if that is the practical way to go. Of course you are doing it for fun, not a sponge/spawner, but those things are guides that allow you to test your abilities; to build fortifications and cannons that are best to defend your base and penetrate the opponent's walls and get their sponge. It gives reason to your cannons and makes it fun to use. It gives you the feeling "Wait until we use this cannon. It will take us right through their walls, heh heh".
When you played capture the flag when you were a kid (Whether you actually did or not) , you weren't playing for the marked paper plate, but if it wasn't there, the game would be pretty awkwardly played.
Read up. It's a mod suggestion thread, but then, who wants to have war stuff on minecraft all the time? And not everyone wants to fight all the time. So it seems best to implement as a mod.