There is something about this thread I'm definitely missing: The base itself. We all know we can send scouts and find their bases, but if you have an above ground base, then how do you defend it? The idea I have is that you should have gravel lava walls, a bunch of cannons to quickly obliterate enemy cannons, and a bunch of sniping posts. Our team in Pixelville PvP (ESP) has also designed an ingenious defense. A person tunnels under the ground with some TNT (about 5), and the general on the roof of the base taking in his coordinates and giving him directions. When well timed a group of 5 or so people can be damaged and disoriented allowing the archers to take down 1 or two of the attacking enemies. So far ESP has been able to keep the enemies (we call them the roaches and this war is called The Roach War) off but they have been advancing through our defenses more and more each day. I don't know how well we can cope but because the roaches have a decentralized organization and multiple bases and stashes, a counter attack would not do much. I am not asking for help, so I will not tell you any more details, but just how do you create a strong main base, and how do you defend it?
I was in this war too, and there are a few other things I'd like to mention by my own experience
-In pure vanilla, an advancing enemy will have VERY LITTLE difficulty raiding your base, if you don't take strong precautions against them. This battle occured on a server with block protection, which prevents enemies destroying blocks in our base, unless you propel it over the border with a TNT cannon, or lead a creeper in.
-At one point, they were on the roof, but could not in. Plan do do something in as few movements as possible, and something that could get the enemy before they can respond. If we had sent troops up the stairs, or tried to dig up, they could have killed all of us, and captured. Instead, we rigged the ceiling (A high ceiling) with TNT and blew up the roof. They fell down stunned and they were easy to kill.
-In a real war, TNT is much more volatile than you'd expect. It makes a big explosion, can hurt you pretty easily, and as easy to control as a video suggests. Lag can play an issue, and you need to make sure the timing is right to prevent hitting yourself. I've tried a few times after watching videos, and I messed up more than I though. You should also know how much TNT you are to use in propulsion. Aiming isn't simple. I suggest you actually find a place to practice firing.
-Mob grinders. They are very important. If you do not have a mob grinder, you do not have TNT and you do not have arrows. It is also difficult to make it efficient. I have tried to make one of those "practical" ones, and it took a lot of camping to gain a stack of sulfur. (I even enhanced it with signs) You should make sure you find an efficient model, and make sure you light all caves around it. Don't worry about building difficulty, but make sure you get like 3 or more people helping. Me and tomys even tried to make a better design, and that was not the best, either, though a bit better.
-Bows and arrows are important. You can spam them at the enemy from a decent range, and if your whole team does it, it can overwhelm. That's why grinders are important. Even use the feathers the grinder gives to make arrows.
2 Things I learned from PvP:
1. Don't take any valuable with you, they may be used against you.
2. A bucket of lava is not to underestimate in use. Better than a sword imho.
Edit: Another few tips: Use reeds as battlements, they are arrow-proof but allow you to fire back. And leave holes in your battlements where you can drop tnt or put lava easyly.
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Feel free if you to ^ my posts if you find them helpful.
So quick brawling is so ruthless, so cowardly, so underhanded, so Prince that it should be discounted from warfare entirely. After some thinking, I must say that I concur with this. I admit that it is not really fun, nor does it offers any space for real, General-level decision-making. But one must be aware that it is a viable (albeit gay) strategy, and is liable to be used by someone who is desperate for victory.
Should it be now assumed that war means that bases are required? Seriously, it is not a rhetorical question. Is a HQ necessary? With the ability to communicate instantly over vast expanses and through hundreds of feet of solid rock, cannot a Minecraft army be likened to a hive mind? Basically:
1. Does a respectably-sized army need a base to stay organized?
2. Should not using bases be frowned upon?
(y/n is unacceptable as an answer guys, ELABORATE)
Don't mean to detract the focus of the topic Max, but I think this is important.
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While true Banana can't cry, nor can Banana wear pants.
One thing Banana can always do,
Is the Great Banana Dance...
No blood, ice cold,
But Banana can dance,
Because Banana has a soul
-Onision
A base is necessary. It doesn't need to be a castle, but it can be underground.
-You need a place to store everything, and center to work around. It's not just communication. Even when you are not with a team, you tend to settle somewhere with chests and all. Why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone? You also need a mob grinder
- As war technically isn't necessary in minecraft, you need an artificially driven objective to get the entertainment of war. If neither side has a castle to attack or defend, it downgrades to basic pvp, which can be boring after a while.
Obviously you shouldn't bring raw diamonds into battle, but you should still bring armor against all risks. Picture the bringing a gun to fight scenario. If one side uses it, the other side must use it to be equal or face certain death. Full iron at mint condition reduces 80% damage. That will make it impossible to lose a fight unless the other team has armor, in which case you need it to have a shot at winning.
That's what drives war and its technology. One side makes armor, and the other must to have a chance. The other makes mob towers, and the other must do the same to keep up. One captures a mob tower, and thus, people need to defend or hide them. One starts using TNT and the other must do the same. Arbitrary rules should be very limited.
Matt we might have something from the other side too, The roaches had many bases and were cut into 2 man teams. (We think Thano is their leader.) I think what he does is that he tells each team what they need to prepare for the next attack, and when all the teams are ready they will start. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this?
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I have a new signature as that one was a year (or more?) outdated!
Matt we might have something from the other side too, The roaches had many bases and were cut into 2 man teams. (We think Thano is their leader.) I think what he does is that he tells each team what they need to prepare for the next attack, and when all the teams are ready they will start. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this?
Although having no distinct common base was beneficial to their attacks against us, you cannot achieve any "dominance" if you do not have anything. Think. If you have no items, they cannot beat you, but that is just because there is nothing to defend in the first place. That also is the principle that will be the cause of having a visual castle. After all it's a game. If you decide to not have a base to defend, it's just ignoring that part of gameplay.
Though there can be a strategic purpose. As it's easy to have an undetectable base underground far from spawn for needs, you can utilize this. Say that there was orsa novus aevum on your server, and you had an army with at least a viable chanmce of taking them down. If you had not built a base, you may want to put that on hold until you have destroyed orsa novus aevum. That way, you can stock up, repeatedly attack them, and exhaust them out as they will have nothing to counter attack. After you defeat them, you can either then build your castle or capture theirs. Though if it were a really strong clan, and they have a large complex, it may be a better idea to destroy the place then try to use it.
As to this war occurring, we need very large factions with people in various timezones. The object is that with a faction of 100, there will be at least 5 people on at all times, so that there are people to defend a base at all times, and people to fight war at all times.
You are a general. You are leading an army of 4 engies, 10 soldiers (Offensive), 2 pyros, 2 wolf-tamers, and 10 soldiers (Defensive). A total of 24 members. They enemy team has the exact same make-up. It is a fresh map (No items, buildings, etc.) The whole map is very forest-y. Your army is 200 blocks from the enemy team, 1000 blocks from spawn (Now dying is pretty much like death). Commence Battle!
IG Day 1.
4 Offensive soldiers, 5 Defensive soldiers gather wood, create wooden tools, and mine stone.
5 Defensive soldiers make stone swords ASAP and protect from rush attacks.
2 Offensive soldiers scout out enemy.
4 Engineers, 2 Offensive soldiers establish a forward temporary base using gathered resources.
2 Pyros dig sand/gravel (F+S >:biggrin.gif:) with hands/torch drop trick.
2 Wolf Tamers, 2 Offensive soldiers hunt passive mobs (cows, pigs, chicken) for drops.
By the end of the day your army should all have stone equipment, you should have a simple base, a few stacks of wood and cobblestone (most should be used on base building). Establish supply cache, mine, and various farms within walled base during night.
IG Day 2.
4 Offensive soldiers, 4 Defensive soldiers gather burned-up arrows, bones, and feathers, kill spiders for string in morning; Continue mining afterwards, try for iron.
Using the low supply of arrows you should have at this time, as well as the string for bows...
5 Offensive soldiers suit up for archery and gather materials for arrows.
1 Offensive soldier scouts out enemy.
4 Defensive soldiers, 2 Engineers establish forward base; larger wall.
2 Wolf Tamers tame wolves with bones gathered from skeletons.
2 Pyros shaft-mine, in order to find and gather lava.
2 Defensive soldiers, 2 Engineers expand farms, build up base.
By the end of the day your army should have all stone equipment (some iron for top-grade troops), both Pyros should have one lava bucket and a flint and steel, your base should be larger, and you should have several stacks of basic resources. Continue defend/mine/build shifts during night.
You are a general. You are leading an army of 4 engies, 10 soldiers (Offensive), 2 pyros, 2 wolf-tamers, and 10 soldiers (Defensive). A total of 24 members. They enemy team has the exact same make-up. It is a fresh map (No items, buildings, etc.) The whole map is very forest-y. Your army is 200 blocks from the enemy team, 1000 blocks from spawn (Now dying is pretty much like death). Commence Battle!
IG Day 1.
4 Offensive soldiers, 5 Defensive soldiers gather wood, create wooden tools, and mine stone.
5 Defensive soldiers make stone swords ASAP and protect from rush attacks.
2 Offensive soldiers scout out enemy.
4 Engineers, 2 Offensive soldiers establish a forward temporary base using gathered resources.
2 Pyros dig sand/gravel (F+S >:biggrin.gif:) with hands/torch drop trick.
2 Wolf Tamers, 2 Offensive soldiers hunt passive mobs (cows, pigs, chicken) for drops.
By the end of the day your army should all have stone equipment, you should have a simple base, a few stacks of wood and cobblestone (most should be used on base building). Establish supply cache, mine, and various farms within walled base during night.
IG Day 2.
4 Offensive soldiers, 4 Defensive soldiers gather burned-up arrows, bones, and feathers, kill spiders for string in morning; Continue mining afterwards, try for iron.
Using the low supply of arrows you should have at this time, as well as the string for bows...
5 Offensive soldiers suit up for archery and gather materials for arrows.
1 Offensive soldier scouts out enemy.
4 Defensive soldiers, 2 Engineers establish forward base; larger wall.
2 Wolf Tamers tame wolves with bones gathered from skeletons.
2 Pyros shaft-mine, in order to find and gather lava.
2 Defensive soldiers, 2 Engineers expand farms, build up base.
By the end of the day your army should have all stone equipment (some iron for top-grade troops), both Pyros should have one lava bucket and a flint and steel, your base should be larger, and you should have several stacks of basic resources. Continue defend/mine/build shifts during night.
AFAIK, decent, if basic, starter.
That is way too ideal of a situation. You cannot idealize in war. Do things that will consistently work, the more "if's" there are, the less viable of a strategy it is, especially if it is a large procedure. Things are 95% of the time not going to be ideal, so there is no "plan" you should practice or devise for it, as it will only distract you, and make you think you have a plan.
-You will especially seldom find the circumstances you listed above. How is a battle going to suddenly start 1000 blocks from spawn when two equal armies of 28 (A large number) are conveniently 200 blocks away? ?It's common sense that you would not start a diamond mine in that specific circumstance.
In a real minecraft war, you would have had time to develop because you can hide undeground. That would at least give you time to develop diamond equipment, a mob tower, a farm, etc.
-Why do people think that there are going to be these class-specific positions? Armies are not going to have designated everything. At least you put it in minecraft terms (I once saw someone rambling about a "supply transportation formation" in which he described "lightweight troops" and "vangaurd" and stuff, which made no minecraft sense. But even in minecraft terms, "troop" is best as the only class. You do not need pyros as anybody can bring their own flint and steel. You don't need designated wolf tamers as anybody can tame what wolves they find, and wolves provide the same attack/defense advantage for anyone who uses them. You do not need attack and defense troops. People will attack and defend as the situation dictates.
An online game will naturally be a bit looser in that manner than real life war. In real life war, people are dedicated 24/7 and must train long hours to get good. In minecraft, anybody who knows how to do something can do something at an at least decent efficiency. If you try to be rigid, and assign arbitrary positions such as "pyro", it will be hard to keep it from collapsing. It will be more like "make sure your troops bring flint and steels incase they can burn the enemy building down." Not, "The objective of your pyros is to urn your enemy building down"
Also, I know Vmax probably won't see this, but in my opinion, the "current topics" aren't really current. The topics listed there are topics that probably most people would consider "already discussed topics that people keep bringing up". Some may still be viable, but I think the nether, wolves, and piston cannons have gotten sufficient discussion and we now know how we can and can't use them. It just gets a bit annoying when people are about to discuss a brand new or important thing, and then somebody says "I thnk wolfys r kool cause u can bring alot of them" "The nether will be an important battle front, lets put cannons there!" and people ignore previous discussion and repeat basically the same discussion as before.
I'm not saying I'm against wolves, the nether, and pistons necessarily, but I think they have become necro-topics that just come up over and over interrupting fresh discussion. If someone had something actually new, it would be a different story. Say a completely overlooked piston use that can make mob grinders twice as efficient or something, that would be worth discussing, but most people are just bringing the same things up out of the ground again. I'm not saying it's happening this minute, but I'm just throwing it out there.
Qoute:1. Does a respectably-sized army need a base to stay organized?
2. Should not using bases be frowned upon?:Unqoute
Can't find the quote button.
But anyway:
1.Need bases? Yes, for storage and manufacturing. A base? Not unless you want you're generals exposed. Better small, camouflaged bases.
2.Don't see why. Respectability is good and all, but "dirty" tricks tend to win even given the dirty tricksters are outnumbered and outgunned. I mean, look at Vietnam. The North Vietnamese didn't exactly have the advantage, but look at who was marching into Saigon (South Vietnamese capitol)on the 30th of April, 1975.
Here is something pretty important. How do you get enough TNT to be able to use a lot in war?
You definitely need to make a tower as hunting creepers would be ridiculous.
Though if you just slap a dark room with canals and attach a grinder, you are going to get around 80 items per hour from it, which is very inefficient. The ideal would be to have one that produces about 3000 items per hour, even if it takes longer to make.
Here is the issue. Most grinders you find on youtube or such are either:
1) Huge complex grinders the were made in single player in which people have the ability to use item edit, map edit, and such.
2) Pathetic "practical" designs that provide no more than 120 items per hour.
I know Orsa Novus Aevum had a grinder that made about 1800+ items per hour, and when I talked to Vmax on the new revived project art of war server (Click here to sign up for the new Art of War Server!!!) and he said that it doesn't take long provided you have a few people working on it.
From this we can get that there is a way to make a mob grinder that provides 1800+ items per hour, and is feasible to make. If anyone knows a design like this, please post it. I do know that you need to light caves and such, but nothing is currently clear enough as people are used to only making mob grinders in single player.
I've just updated the OP with some stuff. Check the changelog if you're interested. I haven't read [in-depth... I always check though] any of the recent [past page or so] replies, but I'll be doing that soon, and working on responses that I feel are necessary. Other than that, just keep on being awesome, guys :smile.gif:.
ALSO:
There is a new 300 slot Project Art of War server, hosted by Fl1r. If you care to join it, here is the server thread: PAOW:R
I think quicksand would be a good terrain trap considering the large area it can cover and inflict decent damage and disorientate opponents before it can be disarmed.
Here is something pretty important. How do you get enough TNT to be able to use a lot in war?
You definitely need to make a tower as hunting creepers would be ridiculous.
Though if you just slap a dark room with canals and attach a grinder, you are going to get around 80 items per hour from it, which is very inefficient. The ideal would be to have one that produces about 3000 items per hour, even if it takes longer to make.
Here is the issue. Most grinders you find on youtube or such are either:
1) Huge complex grinders the were made in single player in which people have the ability to use item edit, map edit, and such.
2) Pathetic "practical" designs that provide no more than 120 items per hour.
I know Orsa Novus Aevum had a grinder that made about 1800+ items per hour, and when I talked to Vmax on the new revived project art of war server (Click here to sign up for the new Art of War Server!!!) and he said that it doesn't take long provided you have a few people working on it.
From this we can get that there is a way to make a mob grinder that provides 1800+ items per hour, and is feasible to make. If anyone knows a design like this, please post it. I do know that you need to light caves and such, but nothing is currently clear enough as people are used to only making mob grinders in single player.
80 items/hour=1.3 repeating items per minute.
Not great, but faster and safer than hunting. People who build towers (including me) are getting valuable drops handed to them on a silver plate.
120 items/hour=2 items per minute.
Better. Not as awful as you think.
I think quicksand would be a good terrain trap considering the large area it can cover and inflict decent damage and disorientate opponents before it can be disarmed.
Are you talking about this quicksand?
If so, then I would disagree. Bobbling sand blocks are pretty obvious in my opinion, easily escapable, and do little damage to an armored person, especially so if they have food like pork or stew.
A lot of discussion was going on about what's "Cheap" and "Not cheap". That depends on the goal of the war, again. Usually during a war one side is defending and the other is attacking, invading the server. In that case, for the attackers destroying as much as possible of their enemy's is the goal, because they aren't staying long. The defenders are trying to repel the invaders for long enough ("Long enough" depends on the exact situation). On defense, you need a base unless you don't care about your contraptions being destroyed and you having to wait until they leave for you to build everything you own, which is very unpleasant and so you'd probably prefer to have a base and ultimately, your goal is to have it so your citizens can live while not being in fear of the invaders. So in this scenario, yeah the attackers don't "Need" a real base (Although it'll be hard as hell without one). In the second most common, the bases are already made, but they only scouted and found each other recently and are trying to destroy each other because the nearby base is kind of a threat to their secrecy/defense. So they attack each other. This quickly escalates into the clans full scale attacking every base of the other clan. In this scenario, yes you want to have a "Base", that's what you're fighting for in the first place: Dominance.
Oh, and about the quicksand. It can work in the right situations, I.E. against unaware or stupid opponents. Or it can be useful at the bottom of a pit. Less expected and harder to escape than lava or fire. Most soldiers (Or even miners!) carry a water bucket these days.
Has anyone considered snorkeling (That's what I call it, I don't think anyone has ever done it before)? Basically, you take an empty bucket, and when you start to run out of air, you stand still and right click underwater. The bubble will fill in, but you should get some air. Then you go to the bottom of the sea and dump the water out. Repeat. This allows to stay underwater indefinitely. One of the uses I can imagine is to stay sneaked underwater and do this. With sufficient camouflage you're slow, but virtually undetectable. In a naval battle this can allow you to:
A. Retreat safely if you're wounded at lost your boat. Even Vmax, a naval battle hater (By the way Vmax, boats go faster than humans. They turn slower, so you need to adapt and not just copy ground tactics onto the boat, but they are harder to hit with cannons, for instance. It's more of a jousting thing and less of a fencing thing, if you're stupid enough to use swords. Bows are preferable as they allow you to speed by and strike without having to slow down or turn.) has to admit that this is far safer than just jumping out. I don't know about you, but when a soldier jumps out of his boat and slip under the waves, wounded, and likely to get hit by an arrow and die, I focus on taking out some other boat rather than slow down (A BAD IDEA IN NAVAL WARFARE), try to kill him even though I don't see him, and likely get a faceful of arrows myself.
B. The naval battlefield is classically and fundamentally flat. Maybe a cliffside sniper near the sea is the only threat not even with you (Excluding cannons, but they are ineffective against fully sped boats anyway). So generally you just pay attention to what's around you. Looking up or down is useless (Assuming this tactic doesn't get to popular and air units aren't added). They won't be expecting a underwater unit that can stay stealthy indefinitely via buckets and sneak to come right below the boat, kill him and the boat quickly via Golden Sword, and send you sleeping with the fishes.
And finally, new topic: Say you're a spy. There's a certain complex redstone device that's keeping your army at bay. So it's really your job to make sure it doesn't work, and give the engineer a headache when he realizes it doesn't work and has to crawl in the inner workings and fix it, giving your army time to siege the walled city. The engineer is planning to test the machine in five minutes. He's across the castle, nobody will notice you sabotage it. The device is complex but he can build it very quickly. And finally, if you removed it or blew it up utterly they would know. I'm starting narrow so we can build on this exact situation later. TL;DR what is the best way to sabotage something? Remove a single vital wire? Make it so it blows up when activated? Destroy the redstone? You need to do it sneakily. Oftentimes troubleshooting a large machine is more bothersome than making another. So don't consider just mining it on the spot, that's obvious and out of the scope of this topic.
Wrong sir, wrong. YOU stole the fizzy lifting drinks and YOU touched the ceiling, therefor it must be washed and sterilized! So you get nothing! You lose! Good day sir!
what is the best way to sabotage something? Remove a single vital wire? Make it so it blows up when activated? Destroy the redstone? You need to do it sneakily. Oftentimes troubleshooting a large machine is more bothersome than making another. So don't consider just mining it on the spot, that's obvious and out of the scope of this topic.
Being a experienced Redstone engineer I might be able to help. Personally when I build redstone devices I will have a few vital parts (i.e. A redstone repeater, AND + OR gates) Destroying those will most likely Break the whole thing(Also if you use Tnt It will create a lot more work.)
Just my 2 sense...
-Blockbust
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Quote from Dr. Steam »
Open your eyes. In the end you will have to decide for yourself. You alone.
I was in this war too, and there are a few other things I'd like to mention by my own experience
-In pure vanilla, an advancing enemy will have VERY LITTLE difficulty raiding your base, if you don't take strong precautions against them. This battle occured on a server with block protection, which prevents enemies destroying blocks in our base, unless you propel it over the border with a TNT cannon, or lead a creeper in.
-At one point, they were on the roof, but could not in. Plan do do something in as few movements as possible, and something that could get the enemy before they can respond. If we had sent troops up the stairs, or tried to dig up, they could have killed all of us, and captured. Instead, we rigged the ceiling (A high ceiling) with TNT and blew up the roof. They fell down stunned and they were easy to kill.
-In a real war, TNT is much more volatile than you'd expect. It makes a big explosion, can hurt you pretty easily, and as easy to control as a video suggests. Lag can play an issue, and you need to make sure the timing is right to prevent hitting yourself. I've tried a few times after watching videos, and I messed up more than I though. You should also know how much TNT you are to use in propulsion. Aiming isn't simple. I suggest you actually find a place to practice firing.
-Mob grinders. They are very important. If you do not have a mob grinder, you do not have TNT and you do not have arrows. It is also difficult to make it efficient. I have tried to make one of those "practical" ones, and it took a lot of camping to gain a stack of sulfur. (I even enhanced it with signs) You should make sure you find an efficient model, and make sure you light all caves around it. Don't worry about building difficulty, but make sure you get like 3 or more people helping. Me and tomys even tried to make a better design, and that was not the best, either, though a bit better.
-Bows and arrows are important. You can spam them at the enemy from a decent range, and if your whole team does it, it can overwhelm. That's why grinders are important. Even use the feathers the grinder gives to make arrows.
1. Don't take any valuable with you, they may be used against you.
2. A bucket of lava is not to underestimate in use. Better than a sword imho.
Edit: Another few tips: Use reeds as battlements, they are arrow-proof but allow you to fire back. And leave holes in your battlements where you can drop tnt or put lava easyly.
Should it be now assumed that war means that bases are required? Seriously, it is not a rhetorical question. Is a HQ necessary? With the ability to communicate instantly over vast expanses and through hundreds of feet of solid rock, cannot a Minecraft army be likened to a hive mind? Basically:
1. Does a respectably-sized army need a base to stay organized?
2. Should not using bases be frowned upon?
(y/n is unacceptable as an answer guys, ELABORATE)
Don't mean to detract the focus of the topic Max, but I think this is important.
One thing Banana can always do,
Is the Great Banana Dance...
No blood, ice cold,
But Banana can dance,
Because Banana has a soul
-Onision
-You need a place to store everything, and center to work around. It's not just communication. Even when you are not with a team, you tend to settle somewhere with chests and all. Why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone? You also need a mob grinder
- As war technically isn't necessary in minecraft, you need an artificially driven objective to get the entertainment of war. If neither side has a castle to attack or defend, it downgrades to basic pvp, which can be boring after a while.
Obviously you shouldn't bring raw diamonds into battle, but you should still bring armor against all risks. Picture the bringing a gun to fight scenario. If one side uses it, the other side must use it to be equal or face certain death. Full iron at mint condition reduces 80% damage. That will make it impossible to lose a fight unless the other team has armor, in which case you need it to have a shot at winning.
That's what drives war and its technology. One side makes armor, and the other must to have a chance. The other makes mob towers, and the other must do the same to keep up. One captures a mob tower, and thus, people need to defend or hide them. One starts using TNT and the other must do the same. Arbitrary rules should be very limited.
I have a new signature as that one was a year (or more?) outdated!
Although having no distinct common base was beneficial to their attacks against us, you cannot achieve any "dominance" if you do not have anything. Think. If you have no items, they cannot beat you, but that is just because there is nothing to defend in the first place. That also is the principle that will be the cause of having a visual castle. After all it's a game. If you decide to not have a base to defend, it's just ignoring that part of gameplay.
Though there can be a strategic purpose. As it's easy to have an undetectable base underground far from spawn for needs, you can utilize this. Say that there was orsa novus aevum on your server, and you had an army with at least a viable chanmce of taking them down. If you had not built a base, you may want to put that on hold until you have destroyed orsa novus aevum. That way, you can stock up, repeatedly attack them, and exhaust them out as they will have nothing to counter attack. After you defeat them, you can either then build your castle or capture theirs. Though if it were a really strong clan, and they have a large complex, it may be a better idea to destroy the place then try to use it.
As to this war occurring, we need very large factions with people in various timezones. The object is that with a faction of 100, there will be at least 5 people on at all times, so that there are people to defend a base at all times, and people to fight war at all times.
Everyone here should sign up for this
Revived PAOW signups here!
This is going to be a revival of project art of war. If we want this to work, everyone needs to join in on this.
IG Day 1.
4 Offensive soldiers, 5 Defensive soldiers gather wood, create wooden tools, and mine stone.
5 Defensive soldiers make stone swords ASAP and protect from rush attacks.
2 Offensive soldiers scout out enemy.
4 Engineers, 2 Offensive soldiers establish a forward temporary base using gathered resources.
2 Pyros dig sand/gravel (F+S >:biggrin.gif:) with hands/torch drop trick.
2 Wolf Tamers, 2 Offensive soldiers hunt passive mobs (cows, pigs, chicken) for drops.
By the end of the day your army should all have stone equipment, you should have a simple base, a few stacks of wood and cobblestone (most should be used on base building). Establish supply cache, mine, and various farms within walled base during night.
IG Day 2.
4 Offensive soldiers, 4 Defensive soldiers gather burned-up arrows, bones, and feathers, kill spiders for string in morning; Continue mining afterwards, try for iron.
Using the low supply of arrows you should have at this time, as well as the string for bows...
5 Offensive soldiers suit up for archery and gather materials for arrows.
1 Offensive soldier scouts out enemy.
4 Defensive soldiers, 2 Engineers establish forward base; larger wall.
2 Wolf Tamers tame wolves with bones gathered from skeletons.
2 Pyros shaft-mine, in order to find and gather lava.
2 Defensive soldiers, 2 Engineers expand farms, build up base.
By the end of the day your army should have all stone equipment (some iron for top-grade troops), both Pyros should have one lava bucket and a flint and steel, your base should be larger, and you should have several stacks of basic resources. Continue defend/mine/build shifts during night.
AFAIK, decent, if basic, starter.
That is way too ideal of a situation. You cannot idealize in war. Do things that will consistently work, the more "if's" there are, the less viable of a strategy it is, especially if it is a large procedure. Things are 95% of the time not going to be ideal, so there is no "plan" you should practice or devise for it, as it will only distract you, and make you think you have a plan.
-You will especially seldom find the circumstances you listed above. How is a battle going to suddenly start 1000 blocks from spawn when two equal armies of 28 (A large number) are conveniently 200 blocks away? ?It's common sense that you would not start a diamond mine in that specific circumstance.
In a real minecraft war, you would have had time to develop because you can hide undeground. That would at least give you time to develop diamond equipment, a mob tower, a farm, etc.
-Why do people think that there are going to be these class-specific positions? Armies are not going to have designated everything. At least you put it in minecraft terms (I once saw someone rambling about a "supply transportation formation" in which he described "lightweight troops" and "vangaurd" and stuff, which made no minecraft sense. But even in minecraft terms, "troop" is best as the only class. You do not need pyros as anybody can bring their own flint and steel. You don't need designated wolf tamers as anybody can tame what wolves they find, and wolves provide the same attack/defense advantage for anyone who uses them. You do not need attack and defense troops. People will attack and defend as the situation dictates.
An online game will naturally be a bit looser in that manner than real life war. In real life war, people are dedicated 24/7 and must train long hours to get good. In minecraft, anybody who knows how to do something can do something at an at least decent efficiency. If you try to be rigid, and assign arbitrary positions such as "pyro", it will be hard to keep it from collapsing. It will be more like "make sure your troops bring flint and steels incase they can burn the enemy building down." Not, "The objective of your pyros is to urn your enemy building down"
Also, I know Vmax probably won't see this, but in my opinion, the "current topics" aren't really current. The topics listed there are topics that probably most people would consider "already discussed topics that people keep bringing up". Some may still be viable, but I think the nether, wolves, and piston cannons have gotten sufficient discussion and we now know how we can and can't use them. It just gets a bit annoying when people are about to discuss a brand new or important thing, and then somebody says "I thnk wolfys r kool cause u can bring alot of them" "The nether will be an important battle front, lets put cannons there!" and people ignore previous discussion and repeat basically the same discussion as before.
I'm not saying I'm against wolves, the nether, and pistons necessarily, but I think they have become necro-topics that just come up over and over interrupting fresh discussion. If someone had something actually new, it would be a different story. Say a completely overlooked piston use that can make mob grinders twice as efficient or something, that would be worth discussing, but most people are just bringing the same things up out of the ground again. I'm not saying it's happening this minute, but I'm just throwing it out there.
2. Should not using bases be frowned upon?:Unqoute
Can't find the quote button.
But anyway:
1.Need bases? Yes, for storage and manufacturing. A base? Not unless you want you're generals exposed. Better small, camouflaged bases.
2.Don't see why. Respectability is good and all, but "dirty" tricks tend to win even given the dirty tricksters are outnumbered and outgunned. I mean, look at Vietnam. The North Vietnamese didn't exactly have the advantage, but look at who was marching into Saigon (South Vietnamese capitol)on the 30th of April, 1975.
No, hiding in 2x1 holes, sneaking and a layer of tnt above us (and that covered)... waiting for someone to come by...
You definitely need to make a tower as hunting creepers would be ridiculous.
Though if you just slap a dark room with canals and attach a grinder, you are going to get around 80 items per hour from it, which is very inefficient. The ideal would be to have one that produces about 3000 items per hour, even if it takes longer to make.
Here is the issue. Most grinders you find on youtube or such are either:
1) Huge complex grinders the were made in single player in which people have the ability to use item edit, map edit, and such.
2) Pathetic "practical" designs that provide no more than 120 items per hour.
I know Orsa Novus Aevum had a grinder that made about 1800+ items per hour, and when I talked to Vmax on the new revived project art of war server (Click here to sign up for the new Art of War Server!!!) and he said that it doesn't take long provided you have a few people working on it.
From this we can get that there is a way to make a mob grinder that provides 1800+ items per hour, and is feasible to make. If anyone knows a design like this, please post it. I do know that you need to light caves and such, but nothing is currently clear enough as people are used to only making mob grinders in single player.
ALSO:
There is a new 300 slot Project Art of War server, hosted by Fl1r. If you care to join it, here is the server thread:
PAOW:R
80 items/hour=1.3 repeating items per minute.
Not great, but faster and safer than hunting. People who build towers (including me) are getting valuable drops handed to them on a silver plate.
120 items/hour=2 items per minute.
Better. Not as awful as you think.
1800 items/hour=30 items per minute.
ZOMGFTWBBQ
Here's the mob trap we use... I think. I didn't watch the whole video, but it looked familiar...
Doesn't take too long at all when you have 10+ people working on it at the same time.
Are you talking about this quicksand?
If so, then I would disagree. Bobbling sand blocks are pretty obvious in my opinion, easily escapable, and do little damage to an armored person, especially so if they have food like pork or stew.
Senior Member of Orsa Novus Aevum
Oh, and about the quicksand. It can work in the right situations, I.E. against unaware or stupid opponents. Or it can be useful at the bottom of a pit. Less expected and harder to escape than lava or fire. Most soldiers (Or even miners!) carry a water bucket these days.
Has anyone considered snorkeling (That's what I call it, I don't think anyone has ever done it before)? Basically, you take an empty bucket, and when you start to run out of air, you stand still and right click underwater. The bubble will fill in, but you should get some air. Then you go to the bottom of the sea and dump the water out. Repeat. This allows to stay underwater indefinitely. One of the uses I can imagine is to stay sneaked underwater and do this. With sufficient camouflage you're slow, but virtually undetectable. In a naval battle this can allow you to:
A. Retreat safely if you're wounded at lost your boat. Even Vmax, a naval battle hater (By the way Vmax, boats go faster than humans. They turn slower, so you need to adapt and not just copy ground tactics onto the boat, but they are harder to hit with cannons, for instance. It's more of a jousting thing and less of a fencing thing, if you're stupid enough to use swords. Bows are preferable as they allow you to speed by and strike without having to slow down or turn.) has to admit that this is far safer than just jumping out. I don't know about you, but when a soldier jumps out of his boat and slip under the waves, wounded, and likely to get hit by an arrow and die, I focus on taking out some other boat rather than slow down (A BAD IDEA IN NAVAL WARFARE), try to kill him even though I don't see him, and likely get a faceful of arrows myself.
B. The naval battlefield is classically and fundamentally flat. Maybe a cliffside sniper near the sea is the only threat not even with you (Excluding cannons, but they are ineffective against fully sped boats anyway). So generally you just pay attention to what's around you. Looking up or down is useless (Assuming this tactic doesn't get to popular and air units aren't added). They won't be expecting a underwater unit that can stay stealthy indefinitely via buckets and sneak to come right below the boat, kill him and the boat quickly via Golden Sword, and send you sleeping with the fishes.
And finally, new topic: Say you're a spy. There's a certain complex redstone device that's keeping your army at bay. So it's really your job to make sure it doesn't work, and give the engineer a headache when he realizes it doesn't work and has to crawl in the inner workings and fix it, giving your army time to siege the walled city. The engineer is planning to test the machine in five minutes. He's across the castle, nobody will notice you sabotage it. The device is complex but he can build it very quickly. And finally, if you removed it or blew it up utterly they would know. I'm starting narrow so we can build on this exact situation later. TL;DR what is the best way to sabotage something? Remove a single vital wire? Make it so it blows up when activated? Destroy the redstone? You need to do it sneakily. Oftentimes troubleshooting a large machine is more bothersome than making another. So don't consider just mining it on the spot, that's obvious and out of the scope of this topic.
Unlike pretty much errybody, I read your wall.
I, too, "snorkel", but I do it with placing torches momentarily.
Being a experienced Redstone engineer I might be able to help. Personally when I build redstone devices I will have a few vital parts (i.e. A redstone repeater, AND + OR gates) Destroying those will most likely Break the whole thing(Also if you use Tnt It will create a lot more work.)
Just my 2 sense...
-Blockbust
>_>