Indeed it is not, but you can't send someone into battle with EVERYTHING and you need to know where to position them in battle too. And with more complex cannons, I daresay a normal foot soldier will blow himself up. Everyone can do the basic functions, but basic functions is not enough unless you are sure you will win. You need to outsmart the enemy.
Actually, you can send someone into battle with everything. A sword, a bow, arrows, tnt, redstone, blocks, and some other odds and ends such as levers, buttons, buckets, etc. If a foot soldier will blow himself up with complex cannons, the answer is simple: Build simple cannons. Nobody ever needs to or has time to build a complex cannon on the battlefield, even an engineer. A simple cannon does anything a cannon needs to do. No need for a big bertha. The general helps with general commands, but he's not dressing them, and tieing their shoes. Each person can bring any equipment possibly needed, and each person can use that equipment at his own discretion. There are few if any items in minecraft that not anybody can use in some way.
Indeed it is not, but you can't send someone into battle with EVERYTHING and you need to know where to position them in battle too. And with more complex cannons, I daresay a normal foot soldier will blow himself up. Everyone can do the basic functions, but basic functions is not enough unless you are sure you will win. You need to outsmart the enemy.
Actually, you can send someone into battle with everything. A sword, a bow, arrows, tnt, redstone, blocks, and some other odds and ends such as levers, buttons, buckets, etc. If a foot soldier will blow himself up with complex cannons, the answer is simple: Build simple cannons. Nobody ever needs to or has time to build a complex cannon on the battlefield, even an engineer. A simple cannon does anything a cannon needs to do. No need for a big bertha. The general helps with general commands, but he's not dressing them, and tieing their shoes. Each person can bring any equipment possibly needed, and each person can use that equipment at his own discretion. There are few if any items in minecraft that not anybody can use in some way.
Records!
A thought: Maybe the few useless items (dyes and whatnot) could be used as secret, silent messages between players on a team. If you're raiding an enemy chest, and there's a blue dye or whatever, that could mean a teammate has already been there. Or maybe a blue wool block could be placed in the door of a room to signal that it has already been raided. Just as a quick, easy means of 1-way communication.
Real-Time Tactics: The biggest variables are really what tier sword you have, your bow amo, and who want's who dead
Think about it, if you have a diamond sword, you need not run away. That is, unless your opponent has a diamond sword. That is, if you have the only bow. That is, if your opponent has no armor. If you know the variables, you know the situation and can adapt your strategy to said situation. Really, the topic is way to broad. Maybe give an example situation, list the known variables, then I could form a small battle plan.
The Nether: The Nether is very, very important to battle strategies. It can get a whole army into the heart of a base in less than a minute with a cost of around 30 obsidian. Sure, the Nether may cause casualties, but if you send scouts to make a safe tunnel, you should be all right. Something that has not been mentioned yet is the Nether as a training ground. Ghasts and Zombie Pigmen make the absolute best practice targets as they are strong and require much skill. If you master the nether, you have mastered combat.... at least, gotten very good at it. There is no disputing it, the Nether is definitely a under-used resource for battles.
Wolf Strategy: Wolves can help. Wolves can hurt. I say have special wolf-taming units that stay on the outskirts of a battle, shooting arrows at enemies and having their dogs rip through the foes. Problem is that if you shoot a friend.... well, there gone. Also, dogs can be stupid. Wolf-Taming units are helpful because they need not be preoccupied with anything other than their dogs. They hold no valuables, and are quite strong if they are in the right type of base. Say you are close enough to your dogs so they dont teleport, but you still are fairly high and the dogs are on the ground. Snipe. Dogs Kill. Snipe. Dogs Kill. Each Arrow is a man's life (Or should I say death)
Worthy Targets Player-Wise, the best targets are the engies. Not only have you rendered their cannons useless and tooken them far from their comfort zone (the Spawn), they generally carry nice loot. Take over the enemy cannon? Well, booby-trap it for extra fun. Building-Wise, military out-posts are the biggest target. Destroy them, and you have defenseless soldiers, some extra loot, and a big advantage.
Piston Uses: Traps. Lots of good, evil traps. Catapults. Simple, vertical/horizontal tnt launchers. Unfortunately, the cost of pistons makes their use in war little to none. I would not use pistons in attacking, but rather as built-ins on a castle or base. Simpler that way.
War's Goal and What this Affects: new topic here. How does war's goal affect the type of battle, and how you should form your strategies? This is what I say:
Rivalry Battle: Think of it as a traditional battle, with the goal being "KILL KILL KILL" Cannons are high priority.
Greed Battle: Lots of spies, mostly a defensive battle with no real middle ground. Gold is wanted. Sneak is useful.
Overtake Battle: I want to expand my reign, so let's conquer a near-by civilization! Use swords to destroy no building
Duel: Survival of the fittest. See Real-Time tactics.
Secret Codes: The blue wool idea is the best for this, maybe a tad more complex, but not to much more.
I came here to post an idea for a strategy of mine that could be used on a number of poor, unsuspecting dudes/armies/whatever. I call this little plan the "Tsunami Wipe Strategem". It goes a little something like this:
Say the enemy's base/fortress/general hideaway is set up either underground, hidden in a cliff-side or is enclosed by a shell/wall-ceiling barrier, like so:
Generally, These are pretty good locations to have a decent base to work with, with either being hidden or protected by a good set of archers or a wall (or a water/lava wall, if it's used) so as to protect it from dangerous dudes (aka your army/clan/whatever). The best way to turn the tides (pun intended) on your opponent(s) is to use that choice of base or fortress to your advantage. How? By using water to flood their entire base, or at least portions of it, so as to cause damage to them. Not actual structural damage, but rather damage to their non-water-resistant items, damage to their psyche for making them feel less secure of how well-fortified their base is, and damage to their resources (both material and time-wise) to remove the water and replace what got broken.
This is a Five-step Stratagem, and would require some planning, resources and knowledge of your opponent's base's location (or at least a decent approximation of where it would be). I'll explain it step-by-step, so you can see how it would go if things worked like planned.
Step 1: Figure out the location of the opponent's base and where a good hill/mountain/whatever is that's close by.
The first thing one should do is locate where the opponent's base (or a particular target) is located at. You'll need a scout or two to roam around the general area, watch where the opponent's members are heading to, and tell the person in charge of this Stratagem the general coordinates of the base (and whatever dangers may lie in wait for trespassers) without being spotted(and getting obliterated soon afterwards). Also take note of any hills, mountains or any other areas of interest that one could dig into, for they'll make steps 3-4 less of a hassle for those who are going to be heading over there.
Step 2: create buckets, fill them all with water equip splashers with proper equipment/supplies, hope to god they succeed.
Once you have a basic idea on where they are located, the next thing is to get what you need and equip the dudes who will pull this off with what they need. I call them "splashers" for they will be using water buckets to cause havok and generally using water to ruin the opponent's day. I suggest giving them 3-4 water buckets each (2 if you're being frugal with iron), a good set of armor (keep it cheap if you're able to), some cooked porkchops (about 3-4 is a good estimate), an iron sword (for in case of pesky dudes who find them or in case of lolcreepers) and a diamond pickaxe (will explain later on). Once equipped, they'll then be ready to go on and carry the Stratagem out.
Step 3: Splashers are to get close to base, use terrain to dig under/around said base, find one or more walls of base while digging, keep sneak on at all costs when possible.
With your Splashers nice and equipped, their first goal is to have them get close to the base so as to get ready to carry out their orders. Keep sneak on once you reach a certain distance from the base (dunno what it is), or else an enemy soldier will notice your username above your head and warn his fellow members of your presence. Anyways, the Splashers would then look for a means to be able to dig below, around or (if need-be, or if you feel creative) above their base. once they have located a good spot to dig at, they'd then start digging a 2x2 hole(large enough for 2-3 people to dig quickly), covering up their entrance with whatever material the wall or floor was made of to make it look like there was nothing there. When the entrance is sealed and they get to digging, the main priority is to find the opponent's walls or ceiling, or at least one wall and stop digging any father that way, except to dig out 1-2 blocks to survey the area to see what is there and if there are any valuable targets that would be effective to hit with this water-using Stratagem (key targets include reed/wheat farms, areas needing plenty of torches to stay lit and redstone circuit rooms). If the wall they choose has one or more key targets, they are to then move on to step 4 right away. If not though, they'd check the next wall or the ceiling to any possible targets. Of course, it's best to check only if there's nobody there to see a block or two being mined/placed, or else the cover is blown and you'll then have a bunch of dudes rushing in to murder you dead. Thus, sneaking is key here.
Step 4: Dig out empty area as wide and tall as wall, but 2 blocks thick, carefully replace tough material like obsidian with easier-to-break material like stone, fill top spot of each column of empty blocks with water, dig space to fit in for each Splasher to hide and wait for orders without drowning, wait for orders from Stratagem leader.
This one's the main meat of the plan. First, the Splashers would dig out an area two blocks thick to place the water at, while digging in out as wide and high as the wall they are targeting (or a smaller section, if need-be). This is where the water will go. Once the area is dug out, the next order of business is taking care of tough materials in the wall that may get in the way, like obsidian. The Splashers would have to be careful to dig out the materials without their presence being known, replacing it with materials similar to what was used, like cobblestone (most used material for building, I should know). This where the diamond pickaxe comes in handy. Once the wall is free of tough/dangerous materials, the Splashers would then dump a water block at the top spot of each column of empty spots, where it would then go and fill up the rest of the column/area (for the most part) with water. All columns must be filled with water in order for it to be set properly. Now then, your Splashers still need to breathe air, so they quickly also would need to dig a small space for each to squeeze into, with air to breath and a spot to wait in when they are finished setting up. Once set, they would send a message to the Stratagem leader to let them know that they had completed their task. Then, it's jut a matter of waiting and being in sneak mode until it's time to pull off the plan.
Step 5: Get order from Stratagem leader, break wall blocks of base's wall(s)/ceiling chosen in Step 3, let water rush in, dig escape tunnel quickly, get selves out of there alive and successful.
When the Stratagem leader is told by the clan leader/general/whoever is in charge that it's time to spring what they had set (either due to dudes close to the filled-up wall area that they want dealt with, or that it was time to take out defenses/resources), they would then let the Splashers know that it was time to do so. From there, they would then dig out the wall/ceiling with the diamond pick, from top to bottom (or left to right/right to left) to allow the water to come rushing into the room(s) the wall(s) was/were connected to, doing their damage and causing either panic or some frustration from the opposing army/clan/whatever. That's the Splashers' turn to dig out their tunnel to freedom and get outta dodge before becoming blood stains on the floor. If they manage to make it out alive and get back, or if they end up dieing but are still able to make it back, they can then tell them how it went and the damages done to their defenses/resources, so new plans and attacks can be planned based on how well things went.
Now then, this sort of Stratagem is best used to mess with your opponent's grown resources, torches and redstone circuitry, as well as the resources to rebuild the wall and remove the water placed there.
It would cost some iron, food and several diamonds to pull this off as well as possible (the diamonds being used for pickaxes for in case of obsidian), but done well, the benefits out-weight the problems, but only if a wall with one or more key target is found near/next to the wall(s) ceiling where the Splashers are setting up. The best possibility is hitting a big wheat farm room with plenty of torches keeping the monsters from spawning inside and a redstone circuit system leading to one or more contraptions/defenses (minecart boosters, dispensers.......maybe even a tnt cannon? :V ).
If done right, you'd hit them where it hurts (their resources) while trying to deal with the water problem that was made. First of all, water makes reeds, wheat, seeds, saplings and other plant items be washed off and turn into item form, ruining plenty of farms if they're in the way. Secondly, torches = no go if they end up in the drink, so they go as well (most likely the first thing to go). Since monsters spawn in the dark, and torches = light (which = bad for monsters), it would cause darkness, meaning monsters (possibly creepers) spawning, thusly making them spend extra resources to deal with them and clean up any creeper holes made. Finally, it's a great way to screw over a redstone circuit system, as it washes away redstone as well (or else we'd have used it underwater a long time ago). This is a good way to ruin a dudes defense system or to sabotage a minecart system so as to throw it out of whack.
Of course, one would need the resources, the hired help and they'd need to be decent at sneaking around and using water buckets, but if it went as listed here, you'd have a great way to both hit their resources decently and cause a bit of a mess in their own base.
It ain't a perfect Stratagem, but I like it a bit. Hopefully you guys could tell me what you think of it and if it'd make at least a good choice if the resources were available and the correct dudes were set to carry out this task. Hopefully that's an at least decently-sized enough post for you guys, since it's about 11PM over here, so yeah, less talky and more sleepy for me. :V
Indeed it is not, but you can't send someone into battle with EVERYTHING and you need to know where to position them in battle too. And with more complex cannons, I daresay a normal foot soldier will blow himself up. Everyone can do the basic functions, but basic functions is not enough unless you are sure you will win. You need to outsmart the enemy.
Actually, you can send someone into battle with everything. A sword, a bow, arrows, tnt, redstone, blocks, and some other odds and ends such as levers, buttons, buckets, etc. If a foot soldier will blow himself up with complex cannons, the answer is simple: Build simple cannons. Nobody ever needs to or has time to build a complex cannon on the battlefield, even an engineer. A simple cannon does anything a cannon needs to do. No need for a big bertha. The general helps with general commands, but he's not dressing them, and tieing their shoes. Each person can bring any equipment possibly needed, and each person can use that equipment at his own discretion. There are few if any items in minecraft that not anybody can use in some way.
I suppose so. But still, it's a good idea to give commands as a general like "Swordsmen, climb the walls. Archers, stay back and fire arrows. Engineers, back up 150 blocks and build a Hyperion.". Also, simple cannons aren't that great. They can make a puny hole in the wall. Assault and Hyperion cannons have their place, for short range assault and long range stealth damage. The teensy wittle gun ain't gonna always cut it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Wrong sir, wrong. YOU stole the fizzy lifting drinks and YOU touched the ceiling, therefor it must be washed and sterilized! So you get nothing! You lose! Good day sir!
Indeed it is not, but you can't send someone into battle with EVERYTHING and you need to know where to position them in battle too. And with more complex cannons, I daresay a normal foot soldier will blow himself up. Everyone can do the basic functions, but basic functions is not enough unless you are sure you will win. You need to outsmart the enemy.
Actually, you can send someone into battle with everything. A sword, a bow, arrows, tnt, redstone, blocks, and some other odds and ends such as levers, buttons, buckets, etc. If a foot soldier will blow himself up with complex cannons, the answer is simple: Build simple cannons. Nobody ever needs to or has time to build a complex cannon on the battlefield, even an engineer. A simple cannon does anything a cannon needs to do. No need for a big bertha. The general helps with general commands, but he's not dressing them, and tieing their shoes. Each person can bring any equipment possibly needed, and each person can use that equipment at his own discretion. There are few if any items in minecraft that not anybody can use in some way.
I suppose so. But still, it's a good idea to give commands as a general like "Swordsmen, climb the walls. Archers, stay back and fire arrows. Engineers, back up 150 blocks and build a Hyperion.". Also, simple cannons aren't that great. They can make a puny hole in the wall, but they more or less have nothing on the catapult, so making one is wasting your time. Quick firing of a TNT or two is not the job of the cannon. Assault and Hyperion cannons have their place, for short range assault and long range stealth damage. The teensy wittle gun ain't gonna always cut it.
Quote from tomandreen »
Real-Time Tactics: The biggest variables are really what tier sword you have, your bow ammo, and who want's who deadThink about it, if you have a diamond sword, you need not run away. That is, unless your opponent has a diamond sword. That is, if you have the only bow. That is, if your opponent has no armor. If you know the variables, you know the situation and can adapt your strategy to said situation. Really, the topic is way to broad. Maybe give an example situation, list the known variables, then I could form a small battle plan.
I do agree, the topic is very very broad. The biggest variables are how much intelligence you have, your position, resources, and stealth. If you have lots of intel and stealth, giving you the element of surprise, you can have a spy sabotage the traps and backstab some people with a golden sword. On the other hand, if you're on a hill with lots of resources and engies, you can sit back, make some Assault cannons, and have fun watching as they scramble to repair and take cover as TNT dots their base. You have the advantages of Resources and Position.
Quote from tomandreen »
The Nether: The Nether is very, very important to battle strategies. It can get a whole army into the heart of a base in less than a minute with a cost of around 30 obsidian. Sure, the Nether may cause casualties, but if you send scouts to make a safe tunnel, you should be all right. Something that has not been mentioned yet is the Nether as a training ground. Ghasts and Zombie Pigmen make the absolute best practice targets as they are strong and require much skill. If you master the nether, you have mastered combat.... at least, gotten very good at it. There is no disputing it, the Nether is definitely a under-used resource for battles.
Think Hannibal.
Quote from tomandreen »
Wolf Strategy: Wolves can help. Wolves can hurt. I say have special wolf-taming units that stay on the outskirts of a battle, shooting arrows at enemies and having their dogs rip through the foes. Problem is that if you shoot a friend.... well, there gone. Also, dogs can be stupid. Wolf-Taming units are helpful because they need not be preoccupied with anything other than their dogs. They hold no valuables, and are quite strong if they are in the right type of base. Say you are close enough to your dogs so they dont teleport, but you still are fairly high and the dogs are on the ground. Snipe. Dogs Kill. Snipe. Dogs Kill. Each Arrow is a man's life (Or should I say death)
I am heavy dog-sniper guy. And this. Is my doggie. That's probably the best strategy, just have your dogs on the battlefield and snipe a person to mark him as a target. Preferably the engies. The best tatcic is probably a mixture of Dog strategy and Nether ambush. Make a portal into their base and make a massacre with the dogs. You should be able to take out the infantry quickly.
Quote from tomandreen »
Worthy Targets Player-Wise, the best targets are the engies. Not only have you rendered their cannons useless and tooken them far from their comfort zone (the Spawn), they generally carry nice loot. Take over the enemy cannon? Well, booby-trap it for extra fun. Building-Wise, military out-posts are the biggest target. Destroy them, and you have defenseless soldiers, some extra loot, and a big advantage.
The biggest target is by far the General. They can't give very good orders without seeing what's going on firsthand, so they might as well not be there if you take them out. If you manage to get the general out of the way, you have a massive advantage. However, even the general is a minute concern next to the importance of taking buildings, mines, and other enemy facilities. But we're still on the topic of people. You should also try to root out spies, whether they just in disguise trying to fool you with their skin and action Fox and Hound style, or actually in your clan, passing on intel, discovering/taking them out will probably save you a lot of trouble later. Third in line, as you said, are the engineers, followed by the people that are carrying the resources needed for a army marching in the wilderness. Doing so eliminates their chance of retreat: They're not going to last very along without those precious resources, Mobs, bandits, and your own scout will finish them off. Besides that, everyone else is equal priority.
Quote from tomandreen »
Piston Uses: Traps. Lots of good, evil traps. Catapults. Simple, vertical/horizontal tnt launchers. Unfortunately, the cost of pistons makes their use in war little to none. I would not use pistons in attacking, but rather as built-ins on a castle or base. Simpler that way.
Agreed, but catapults can pack quite a punch. If their walls are very thick and are constantly being repaired, it's not a bad idea to bring one along.
Quote from tomandreen »
War's Goal and What this Affects: new topic here. How does war's goal affect the type of battle, and how you should form your strategies? This is what I say:
Rivalry Battle: Think of it as a traditional battle, with the goal being "KILL KILL KILL" Cannons are high priority.
Greed Battle: Lots of spies, mostly a defensive battle with no real middle ground. Gold is wanted. Sneak is useful.
Overtake Battle: I want to expand my reign, so let's conquer a near-by civilization! Use swords to destroy no building
Duel: Survival of the fittest. See Real-Time tactics.
This is my opinion: Depending on how the war started, the war has a separate goal, and thus you need to do something different to send your enemy to the Frantic Point. And indeed, this is a very important topic. Most of the OP covers mid-war strategy, not the beginning or endgame.
If the war was caused by argument and rivalry, the goal is probably to utterly destroy: The war started because of Morale, and thus it must end the same way. You need to take out the enemy's morale. That's best done not by capturing but utterly destroying their creations: In this kind of war, capture is a temporary thing. Only use something of he enemy's so long as absolutely necessary, as your goal should be to raze their capitol, That sends morale far too low, it nearly always sends them to the Frantic Point. They'll think "How the hell are we supposed to win? They burned everything we have down! GRRRR!!! Let's get them for this!" At this point, you need to deliver the finishing blow; and that's not always easy. Armies in the Frantic Point are not the same at all: Some will gut you from the inside with the spies they hadn't used yet, while others will go berserk and attack 24/7, and you'll have to simply keep them off all the time, and unless you take them out, you're going to end up in the frantic point as well. Also, it's pretty rare for both armies to be in the frantic point at the same time: Usually once someone goes to that point they either come back to a steady fighting point or get finished off.
Anyway, this is a pretty much what happens:
Morale: Aim to wreck as much as possible. Remember, if you need to end a war with the same thing it began with.
Resources: Get far too rich for them to continue fighting you. I.E. make a completely secure fortress.
Land: Drive them off the land.
Get the idea?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Wrong sir, wrong. YOU stole the fizzy lifting drinks and YOU touched the ceiling, therefor it must be washed and sterilized! So you get nothing! You lose! Good day sir!
I'll stay away from politics for now. Instead I'm going to drop a bombshell, courtesy of Mystify:
Part 1: Block-grid Entities
The foundation of this idea is what I'll refer to as a Block-grid entity, or a Block-grid for short. This is a collection of blocks, built identically to how blocks are normally placed in the world, that can move and operate as an entity, while retaining its block-based properties.
To start, the Block-grid will have a array of the blocks that are part of it. Players should be able to build on them and delete them like they normally would, by attaching blocks to blocks already present on the structure. When the structure is finished, it will under-go a "baking" stage, where it will be optimized. It will have a virtual bounding box, which can be used for extremely quick, macro-level tests to see whether an entity needs to deal with the micro-structure of the Block-grid. The outer-edges of the blocks will be baked into several lists, one for each direction, which can be used to detect collisions. This allows it to only check collisions on edges in the direction of movement. Other optimizations can occur at this stage, like simplifying the graphics so edges between 2 blocks don't need rendered and other such tweaks.
If an entity is within the bounding box, then its coordinates and orientation are transformed to match up with the block-grid. At that point, all interactions between the entities and blocks in the block-grid can occur exactly as they would in the normal world. The only needed addition is friction, so if the Block-grid is in motion, the entity can ride it. You can build onto the block-grid, and remove blocks normally. This will require the changes to update the optimizations.
Within the block-grid, block to block interactions should occur normally. This includes things like growing a tree, if the block-grid is large enough to contain it. Collisions between the block-grid and the normal grid may result in Block-grid blocks being broken, depending on speed of impact and strength of material.
No, arrows do the trick. You can hit yourself with an arrow to make your dogs attack you xD
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Wrong sir, wrong. YOU stole the fizzy lifting drinks and YOU touched the ceiling, therefor it must be washed and sterilized! So you get nothing! You lose! Good day sir!
On the subject of wolves, has anyone though of getting a large amount of wolves, then sitting them in a bunker below the enemy's base? It would prevent passive mob spawns, therefore; limiting production of, pork, arrows, and cheap leather armour. Sure, they might find the room full of wolves eventually, but for a time it would limit or even cut off essential supplies.
On the subject of wolves, has anyone though of getting a large amount of wolves, then sitting them in a bunker below the enemy's base? It would prevent passive mob spawns, therefore; limiting production of, pork, arrows, and cheap leather armour. Sure, they might find the room full of wolves eventually, but for a time it would limit or even cut off essential supplies.
Sounds expensive but a famine-based trap may appeal to generals waging a war on resources.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Wrong sir, wrong. YOU stole the fizzy lifting drinks and YOU touched the ceiling, therefor it must be washed and sterilized! So you get nothing! You lose! Good day sir!
On the subject of wolves, has anyone though of getting a large amount of wolves, then sitting them in a bunker below the enemy's base? It would prevent passive mob spawns, therefore; limiting production of, pork, arrows, and cheap leather armour. Sure, they might find the room full of wolves eventually, but for a time it would limit or even cut off essential supplies.
Sounds expensive but a famine-based trap may appeal to generals waging a war on resources.
No.
1) One key: f3 shows all mobs. Seeing a crowd of these would spark some interest and I use this key quite often.
2) Iron is about the same difficulty to get as leather. Even if a little harder, they still get good armor. Not many uses leather armor.
3) Grain farms.
4) You don't get arrows by killing chickens for feathers. Ever. If you want enough arrows to use, you make a mob tower.
5) You don't starve.
6) It's not easy getting a bunch of wolves under there in the first place.
Famine-Based Trap involving wolves? Sounds very un-practical and highly stupid. I think we all agree on that.
Anyways, I have created a situation for us all to debate about. It is below.
Situation #1: Hard-Core Forest War
You are a general. You are leading an army of 4 engies, 10 soldiers (Offensive), 2 pyros, 2 wolf-tamers, and 10 soldiers (Defensive). A total of 24 members. They enemy team has the exact same make-up. It is a fresh map (No items, buildings, etc.) The whole map is very forest-y. Your army is 200 blocks from the enemy team, 1000 blocks from spawn (Now dying is pretty much like death). Commence Battle!
With enough time devoted to a 12-man diamond-level mining operation, and a 6-man mob grinder project (leave one guy behind to AFK and collect loot and transfer the remaining 5 to the mining operation)I think that it would be possible to just whip up enough iron, diamond, buckets, TNT, and arrows to simply march in and raze the enemy before they can get properly entrenched, assuming they aren't doing the all-out march thing themselves. (the other six men not mentioned will naturally be setting up tree and wheat farms and guarding the area).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
While true Banana can't cry, nor can Banana wear pants.
One thing Banana can always do,
Is the Great Banana Dance...
No blood, ice cold,
But Banana can dance,
Because Banana has a soul
-Onision
You can walk 200 blocks in a couple of minutes, and if you're lucky, you can make 1000 blocks between sunrise and sunset. I can't imagine, under these circumstances, the outcome either being immediate brawling, or both armies moving to a more reasonable distance apart.
About the topic of simple cannons, complex cannons, and the sort, there is a type of cannon you are not taking account of. multi shell cannons are highly efficient and useful cannon designs, and easy to build. they can be set up vertically for a hard blast or a matrix for a spray. if done right 5 TNT can be shot at the same time propelled by another 5 TNT, a total of 10 TNT for the equivalent damage of a traditional single shell cannon with 30 TNT. HUGE increase in efficiency. even with just two shells efficiency is almost doubled. adding a delay between the two shells would then simulate 2 shots, with the delay allowing the other TNT to travel a certain distance for more damage.
Imagine this: an enemy base is found and the architect has decided to use a tower as a strong defense where archers can easily rain down arrows while any stupid foot soldiers try and get in. the design is strong with lava walls and you can't get in. How do you get through the base? with a TNT cannon. With a traditional cannon speed firing is very difficult, giving time for the enemy to react and repair and will also be notified of your presence. But if multiple shells were launched into the base at the same time, not only would it destroy a number of floors quickly but also easily kill or severely damage the defenders on the roof. 1 shot and the roof is open (perhaps another in case there are also a lot of enemies down in the lower floors), and paratroopers (tower up and dirt bridge to base) will enter and quickly clean up the base. You just claimed a base with minimal casualties (1 or 2 at max) and you already have a strong outpost.
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I have a new signature as that one was a year (or more?) outdated!
On the topic of a large diamond/grinder project, that is probably what you should do. Although you can say people are going to own you with stone before you have a chance, think. Over 1000 blocks away from spawn, They are not going to find you immediately. An mining/grinders will be done underground, and thus, the enemies will not see you. Even though the enemy will eventually find you, you have enough time to amass diamonds in an army of 10. 5 people, provided that they all understand the concept, can build a good mob grinder pretty fast. 5 other people can mine enough diamonds/iron to arm people (Diamonds should only be used for swords and pickaxes. Iron is for armor as it doesn't matter what tier.)
...I think that it would be possible to just whip up enough iron, diamond, buckets, TNT, and arrows to simply march in and raze the enemy before they can get properly entrenched, assuming they aren't doing the all-out march thing themselves...
EchoPhyber, nowhere in your game plan is a stone-leather rush included. The whole premise of my "attack as fast as possible with brute force" plan was that it would defeat an enemy who is doing what is expected in the first few days of this scenario - entrenching himself. Nestling in, setting up forward bases, etc. It hardly works against an enemy who is also devoting all their efforts to a single, all out full out march (hereby referred to as Quick-Brawling). I am aware of that. But I assume that my opponent is as well. Quick-Brawling is a risky-but-rewarding tactic. Its like bringing a gun to a fight. You've pretty-much won, unless the other guy brought a gun too. In that case, its a bloodbath.
You said that 4 guys building 2x2 tunnels would get tons of iron. Imagine the combined mining power of like 15 guys. If the whole team knew about the plan before the war began, they would be underground SO FAST that your spies would -never- have enough time to traverse 200 blocks and spy on their buildings. They'd be underground without a trace. No surface structures would betray their presence. I assume that you don't know where the enemy is, just that they are in a 200 block radius, so the probability of you even setting out in the right direction is iffy.
This confusion as to the direction of your enemy would give them the Quick-Brawlers the mere seconds it would take to set up a work bench, make up a few wooden pickaxes, and start tearing through the dirt to reach the stone level. With the stone, a furnace is made. This opens up charcoal, and give enough light for true tunneling. The narrow nature of the tunnel means that, realistically, only 1 or 2 guys can work, but with 22 guys on the look-out for spies, I don't think ANYONE is getting any intel scot-free. Beating a man down with two pairs of fists is not that hard if you can catch him. Once bedrock is hit, they ascend again to diamond level and start mining. The other 22 are signaled to come on down. Someone will be dedicated to back-filling the tunnel.
Quick-Brawl affords no time to build a central HQ. Any attempt to pursue them into the tunnels would be suicide, as the hurried nature of the tunnels combined with the sheer quantity of people building them would leave them narrow and confusing to anyone who is unaware of the pattern/schematic the Quick-Brawlers are using. Sure, a hub here or there with a few furnaces that are mildly guarded, but that would be your only reprieve.
Aside from not working fast enough and letting the enemy get well-settled, the only problem I see with the Quick-Brawl is that if you find 1 guy, he's likely to have tons of iron on him, probably unsmelted and unworn.
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While true Banana can't cry, nor can Banana wear pants.
One thing Banana can always do,
Is the Great Banana Dance...
No blood, ice cold,
But Banana can dance,
Because Banana has a soul
-Onision
There is something about this thread I'm definitely missing: The base itself. We all know we can send scouts and find their bases, but if you have an above ground base, then how do you defend it? The idea I have is that you should have gravel lava walls, a bunch of cannons to quickly obliterate enemy cannons, and a bunch of sniping posts. Our team in Pixelville PvP (ESP) has also designed an ingenious defense. A person tunnels under the ground with some TNT (about 5), and the general on the roof of the base taking in his coordinates and giving him directions. When well timed a group of 5 or so people can be damaged and disoriented allowing the archers to take down 1 or two of the attacking enemies. So far ESP has been able to keep the enemies (we call them the roaches and this war is called The Roach War) off but they have been advancing through our defenses more and more each day. I don't know how well we can cope but because the roaches have a decentralized organization and multiple bases and stashes, a counter attack would not do much. I am not asking for help, so I will not tell you any more details, but just how do you create a strong main base, and how do you defend it?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have a new signature as that one was a year (or more?) outdated!
Actually, you can send someone into battle with everything. A sword, a bow, arrows, tnt, redstone, blocks, and some other odds and ends such as levers, buttons, buckets, etc. If a foot soldier will blow himself up with complex cannons, the answer is simple: Build simple cannons. Nobody ever needs to or has time to build a complex cannon on the battlefield, even an engineer. A simple cannon does anything a cannon needs to do. No need for a big bertha. The general helps with general commands, but he's not dressing them, and tieing their shoes. Each person can bring any equipment possibly needed, and each person can use that equipment at his own discretion. There are few if any items in minecraft that not anybody can use in some way.
Records!
A thought: Maybe the few useless items (dyes and whatnot) could be used as secret, silent messages between players on a team. If you're raiding an enemy chest, and there's a blue dye or whatever, that could mean a teammate has already been there. Or maybe a blue wool block could be placed in the door of a room to signal that it has already been raided. Just as a quick, easy means of 1-way communication.
Think about it, if you have a diamond sword, you need not run away. That is, unless your opponent has a diamond sword. That is, if you have the only bow. That is, if your opponent has no armor. If you know the variables, you know the situation and can adapt your strategy to said situation. Really, the topic is way to broad. Maybe give an example situation, list the known variables, then I could form a small battle plan.
The Nether: The Nether is very, very important to battle strategies. It can get a whole army into the heart of a base in less than a minute with a cost of around 30 obsidian. Sure, the Nether may cause casualties, but if you send scouts to make a safe tunnel, you should be all right. Something that has not been mentioned yet is the Nether as a training ground. Ghasts and Zombie Pigmen make the absolute best practice targets as they are strong and require much skill. If you master the nether, you have mastered combat.... at least, gotten very good at it. There is no disputing it, the Nether is definitely a under-used resource for battles.
Wolf Strategy: Wolves can help. Wolves can hurt. I say have special wolf-taming units that stay on the outskirts of a battle, shooting arrows at enemies and having their dogs rip through the foes. Problem is that if you shoot a friend.... well, there gone. Also, dogs can be stupid. Wolf-Taming units are helpful because they need not be preoccupied with anything other than their dogs. They hold no valuables, and are quite strong if they are in the right type of base. Say you are close enough to your dogs so they dont teleport, but you still are fairly high and the dogs are on the ground. Snipe. Dogs Kill. Snipe. Dogs Kill. Each Arrow is a man's life (Or should I say death)
Worthy Targets Player-Wise, the best targets are the engies. Not only have you rendered their cannons useless and tooken them far from their comfort zone (the Spawn), they generally carry nice loot. Take over the enemy cannon? Well, booby-trap it for extra fun. Building-Wise, military out-posts are the biggest target. Destroy them, and you have defenseless soldiers, some extra loot, and a big advantage.
Piston Uses: Traps. Lots of good, evil traps. Catapults. Simple, vertical/horizontal tnt launchers. Unfortunately, the cost of pistons makes their use in war little to none. I would not use pistons in attacking, but rather as built-ins on a castle or base. Simpler that way.
War's Goal and What this Affects: new topic here. How does war's goal affect the type of battle, and how you should form your strategies? This is what I say:
Rivalry Battle: Think of it as a traditional battle, with the goal being "KILL KILL KILL" Cannons are high priority.
Greed Battle: Lots of spies, mostly a defensive battle with no real middle ground. Gold is wanted. Sneak is useful.
Overtake Battle: I want to expand my reign, so let's conquer a near-by civilization! Use swords to destroy no building
Duel: Survival of the fittest. See Real-Time tactics.
Secret Codes: The blue wool idea is the best for this, maybe a tad more complex, but not to much more.
Say the enemy's base/fortress/general hideaway is set up either underground, hidden in a cliff-side or is enclosed by a shell/wall-ceiling barrier, like so:
http://i55.tinypic.com/2nk18y1.png
Generally, These are pretty good locations to have a decent base to work with, with either being hidden or protected by a good set of archers or a wall (or a water/lava wall, if it's used) so as to protect it from dangerous dudes (aka your army/clan/whatever). The best way to turn the tides (pun intended) on your opponent(s) is to use that choice of base or fortress to your advantage. How? By using water to flood their entire base, or at least portions of it, so as to cause damage to them. Not actual structural damage, but rather damage to their non-water-resistant items, damage to their psyche for making them feel less secure of how well-fortified their base is, and damage to their resources (both material and time-wise) to remove the water and replace what got broken.
This is a Five-step Stratagem, and would require some planning, resources and knowledge of your opponent's base's location (or at least a decent approximation of where it would be). I'll explain it step-by-step, so you can see how it would go if things worked like planned.
Step 1: Figure out the location of the opponent's base and where a good hill/mountain/whatever is that's close by.
The first thing one should do is locate where the opponent's base (or a particular target) is located at. You'll need a scout or two to roam around the general area, watch where the opponent's members are heading to, and tell the person in charge of this Stratagem the general coordinates of the base (and whatever dangers may lie in wait for trespassers) without being spotted(and getting obliterated soon afterwards). Also take note of any hills, mountains or any other areas of interest that one could dig into, for they'll make steps 3-4 less of a hassle for those who are going to be heading over there.
Step 2: create buckets, fill them all with water equip splashers with proper equipment/supplies, hope to god they succeed.
Once you have a basic idea on where they are located, the next thing is to get what you need and equip the dudes who will pull this off with what they need. I call them "splashers" for they will be using water buckets to cause havok and generally using water to ruin the opponent's day. I suggest giving them 3-4 water buckets each (2 if you're being frugal with iron), a good set of armor (keep it cheap if you're able to), some cooked porkchops (about 3-4 is a good estimate), an iron sword (for in case of pesky dudes who find them or in case of lolcreepers) and a diamond pickaxe (will explain later on). Once equipped, they'll then be ready to go on and carry the Stratagem out.
Step 3: Splashers are to get close to base, use terrain to dig under/around said base, find one or more walls of base while digging, keep sneak on at all costs when possible.
With your Splashers nice and equipped, their first goal is to have them get close to the base so as to get ready to carry out their orders. Keep sneak on once you reach a certain distance from the base (dunno what it is), or else an enemy soldier will notice your username above your head and warn his fellow members of your presence. Anyways, the Splashers would then look for a means to be able to dig below, around or (if need-be, or if you feel creative) above their base. once they have located a good spot to dig at, they'd then start digging a 2x2 hole(large enough for 2-3 people to dig quickly), covering up their entrance with whatever material the wall or floor was made of to make it look like there was nothing there. When the entrance is sealed and they get to digging, the main priority is to find the opponent's walls or ceiling, or at least one wall and stop digging any father that way, except to dig out 1-2 blocks to survey the area to see what is there and if there are any valuable targets that would be effective to hit with this water-using Stratagem (key targets include reed/wheat farms, areas needing plenty of torches to stay lit and redstone circuit rooms). If the wall they choose has one or more key targets, they are to then move on to step 4 right away. If not though, they'd check the next wall or the ceiling to any possible targets. Of course, it's best to check only if there's nobody there to see a block or two being mined/placed, or else the cover is blown and you'll then have a bunch of dudes rushing in to murder you dead. Thus, sneaking is key here.
Step 4: Dig out empty area as wide and tall as wall, but 2 blocks thick, carefully replace tough material like obsidian with easier-to-break material like stone, fill top spot of each column of empty blocks with water, dig space to fit in for each Splasher to hide and wait for orders without drowning, wait for orders from Stratagem leader.
This one's the main meat of the plan. First, the Splashers would dig out an area two blocks thick to place the water at, while digging in out as wide and high as the wall they are targeting (or a smaller section, if need-be). This is where the water will go. Once the area is dug out, the next order of business is taking care of tough materials in the wall that may get in the way, like obsidian. The Splashers would have to be careful to dig out the materials without their presence being known, replacing it with materials similar to what was used, like cobblestone (most used material for building, I should know). This where the diamond pickaxe comes in handy. Once the wall is free of tough/dangerous materials, the Splashers would then dump a water block at the top spot of each column of empty spots, where it would then go and fill up the rest of the column/area (for the most part) with water. All columns must be filled with water in order for it to be set properly. Now then, your Splashers still need to breathe air, so they quickly also would need to dig a small space for each to squeeze into, with air to breath and a spot to wait in when they are finished setting up. Once set, they would send a message to the Stratagem leader to let them know that they had completed their task. Then, it's jut a matter of waiting and being in sneak mode until it's time to pull off the plan.
Step 5: Get order from Stratagem leader, break wall blocks of base's wall(s)/ceiling chosen in Step 3, let water rush in, dig escape tunnel quickly, get selves out of there alive and successful.
When the Stratagem leader is told by the clan leader/general/whoever is in charge that it's time to spring what they had set (either due to dudes close to the filled-up wall area that they want dealt with, or that it was time to take out defenses/resources), they would then let the Splashers know that it was time to do so. From there, they would then dig out the wall/ceiling with the diamond pick, from top to bottom (or left to right/right to left) to allow the water to come rushing into the room(s) the wall(s) was/were connected to, doing their damage and causing either panic or some frustration from the opposing army/clan/whatever. That's the Splashers' turn to dig out their tunnel to freedom and get outta dodge before becoming blood stains on the floor. If they manage to make it out alive and get back, or if they end up dieing but are still able to make it back, they can then tell them how it went and the damages done to their defenses/resources, so new plans and attacks can be planned based on how well things went.
Now then, this sort of Stratagem is best used to mess with your opponent's grown resources, torches and redstone circuitry, as well as the resources to rebuild the wall and remove the water placed there.
It would cost some iron, food and several diamonds to pull this off as well as possible (the diamonds being used for pickaxes for in case of obsidian), but done well, the benefits out-weight the problems, but only if a wall with one or more key target is found near/next to the wall(s) ceiling where the Splashers are setting up. The best possibility is hitting a big wheat farm room with plenty of torches keeping the monsters from spawning inside and a redstone circuit system leading to one or more contraptions/defenses (minecart boosters, dispensers.......maybe even a tnt cannon? :V ).
If done right, you'd hit them where it hurts (their resources) while trying to deal with the water problem that was made. First of all, water makes reeds, wheat, seeds, saplings and other plant items be washed off and turn into item form, ruining plenty of farms if they're in the way. Secondly, torches = no go if they end up in the drink, so they go as well (most likely the first thing to go). Since monsters spawn in the dark, and torches = light (which = bad for monsters), it would cause darkness, meaning monsters (possibly creepers) spawning, thusly making them spend extra resources to deal with them and clean up any creeper holes made. Finally, it's a great way to screw over a redstone circuit system, as it washes away redstone as well (or else we'd have used it underwater a long time ago). This is a good way to ruin a dudes defense system or to sabotage a minecart system so as to throw it out of whack.
Of course, one would need the resources, the hired help and they'd need to be decent at sneaking around and using water buckets, but if it went as listed here, you'd have a great way to both hit their resources decently and cause a bit of a mess in their own base.
It ain't a perfect Stratagem, but I like it a bit. Hopefully you guys could tell me what you think of it and if it'd make at least a good choice if the resources were available and the correct dudes were set to carry out this task. Hopefully that's an at least decently-sized enough post for you guys, since it's about 11PM over here, so yeah, less talky and more sleepy for me. :V
I suppose so. But still, it's a good idea to give commands as a general like "Swordsmen, climb the walls. Archers, stay back and fire arrows. Engineers, back up 150 blocks and build a Hyperion.". Also, simple cannons aren't that great. They can make a puny hole in the wall. Assault and Hyperion cannons have their place, for short range assault and long range stealth damage. The teensy wittle gun ain't gonna always cut it.
I suppose so. But still, it's a good idea to give commands as a general like "Swordsmen, climb the walls. Archers, stay back and fire arrows. Engineers, back up 150 blocks and build a Hyperion.". Also, simple cannons aren't that great. They can make a puny hole in the wall, but they more or less have nothing on the catapult, so making one is wasting your time. Quick firing of a TNT or two is not the job of the cannon. Assault and Hyperion cannons have their place, for short range assault and long range stealth damage. The teensy wittle gun ain't gonna always cut it.
I do agree, the topic is very very broad. The biggest variables are how much intelligence you have, your position, resources, and stealth. If you have lots of intel and stealth, giving you the element of surprise, you can have a spy sabotage the traps and backstab some people with a golden sword. On the other hand, if you're on a hill with lots of resources and engies, you can sit back, make some Assault cannons, and have fun watching as they scramble to repair and take cover as TNT dots their base. You have the advantages of Resources and Position. Think Hannibal. I am heavy dog-sniper guy. And this. Is my doggie. That's probably the best strategy, just have your dogs on the battlefield and snipe a person to mark him as a target. Preferably the engies. The best tatcic is probably a mixture of Dog strategy and Nether ambush. Make a portal into their base and make a massacre with the dogs. You should be able to take out the infantry quickly. The biggest target is by far the General. They can't give very good orders without seeing what's going on firsthand, so they might as well not be there if you take them out. If you manage to get the general out of the way, you have a massive advantage. However, even the general is a minute concern next to the importance of taking buildings, mines, and other enemy facilities. But we're still on the topic of people. You should also try to root out spies, whether they just in disguise trying to fool you with their skin and action Fox and Hound style, or actually in your clan, passing on intel, discovering/taking them out will probably save you a lot of trouble later. Third in line, as you said, are the engineers, followed by the people that are carrying the resources needed for a army marching in the wilderness. Doing so eliminates their chance of retreat: They're not going to last very along without those precious resources, Mobs, bandits, and your own scout will finish them off. Besides that, everyone else is equal priority. Agreed, but catapults can pack quite a punch. If their walls are very thick and are constantly being repaired, it's not a bad idea to bring one along.
This is my opinion: Depending on how the war started, the war has a separate goal, and thus you need to do something different to send your enemy to the Frantic Point. And indeed, this is a very important topic. Most of the OP covers mid-war strategy, not the beginning or endgame.
If the war was caused by argument and rivalry, the goal is probably to utterly destroy: The war started because of Morale, and thus it must end the same way. You need to take out the enemy's morale. That's best done not by capturing but utterly destroying their creations: In this kind of war, capture is a temporary thing. Only use something of he enemy's so long as absolutely necessary, as your goal should be to raze their capitol, That sends morale far too low, it nearly always sends them to the Frantic Point. They'll think "How the hell are we supposed to win? They burned everything we have down! GRRRR!!! Let's get them for this!" At this point, you need to deliver the finishing blow; and that's not always easy. Armies in the Frantic Point are not the same at all: Some will gut you from the inside with the spies they hadn't used yet, while others will go berserk and attack 24/7, and you'll have to simply keep them off all the time, and unless you take them out, you're going to end up in the frantic point as well. Also, it's pretty rare for both armies to be in the frantic point at the same time: Usually once someone goes to that point they either come back to a steady fighting point or get finished off.
Anyway, this is a pretty much what happens:
Morale: Aim to wreck as much as possible. Remember, if you need to end a war with the same thing it began with.
Resources: Get far too rich for them to continue fighting you. I.E. make a completely secure fortress.
Land: Drive them off the land.
Get the idea?
Just a suggestion at this point, but...
Sounds expensive but a famine-based trap may appeal to generals waging a war on resources.
No.
1) One key: f3 shows all mobs. Seeing a crowd of these would spark some interest and I use this key quite often.
2) Iron is about the same difficulty to get as leather. Even if a little harder, they still get good armor. Not many uses leather armor.
3) Grain farms.
4) You don't get arrows by killing chickens for feathers. Ever. If you want enough arrows to use, you make a mob tower.
5) You don't starve.
6) It's not easy getting a bunch of wolves under there in the first place.
is completely false.
Anyways, I have created a situation for us all to debate about. It is below.
You are a general. You are leading an army of 4 engies, 10 soldiers (Offensive), 2 pyros, 2 wolf-tamers, and 10 soldiers (Defensive). A total of 24 members. They enemy team has the exact same make-up. It is a fresh map (No items, buildings, etc.) The whole map is very forest-y. Your army is 200 blocks from the enemy team, 1000 blocks from spawn (Now dying is pretty much like death). Commence Battle!
One thing Banana can always do,
Is the Great Banana Dance...
No blood, ice cold,
But Banana can dance,
Because Banana has a soul
-Onision
Imagine this: an enemy base is found and the architect has decided to use a tower as a strong defense where archers can easily rain down arrows while any stupid foot soldiers try and get in. the design is strong with lava walls and you can't get in. How do you get through the base? with a TNT cannon. With a traditional cannon speed firing is very difficult, giving time for the enemy to react and repair and will also be notified of your presence. But if multiple shells were launched into the base at the same time, not only would it destroy a number of floors quickly but also easily kill or severely damage the defenders on the roof. 1 shot and the roof is open (perhaps another in case there are also a lot of enemies down in the lower floors), and paratroopers (tower up and dirt bridge to base) will enter and quickly clean up the base. You just claimed a base with minimal casualties (1 or 2 at max) and you already have a strong outpost.
I have a new signature as that one was a year (or more?) outdated!
EchoPhyber, nowhere in your game plan is a stone-leather rush included. The whole premise of my "attack as fast as possible with brute force" plan was that it would defeat an enemy who is doing what is expected in the first few days of this scenario - entrenching himself. Nestling in, setting up forward bases, etc. It hardly works against an enemy who is also devoting all their efforts to a single, all out full out march (hereby referred to as Quick-Brawling). I am aware of that. But I assume that my opponent is as well. Quick-Brawling is a risky-but-rewarding tactic. Its like bringing a gun to a fight. You've pretty-much won, unless the other guy brought a gun too. In that case, its a bloodbath.
You said that 4 guys building 2x2 tunnels would get tons of iron. Imagine the combined mining power of like 15 guys. If the whole team knew about the plan before the war began, they would be underground SO FAST that your spies would -never- have enough time to traverse 200 blocks and spy on their buildings. They'd be underground without a trace. No surface structures would betray their presence. I assume that you don't know where the enemy is, just that they are in a 200 block radius, so the probability of you even setting out in the right direction is iffy.
This confusion as to the direction of your enemy would give them the Quick-Brawlers the mere seconds it would take to set up a work bench, make up a few wooden pickaxes, and start tearing through the dirt to reach the stone level. With the stone, a furnace is made. This opens up charcoal, and give enough light for true tunneling. The narrow nature of the tunnel means that, realistically, only 1 or 2 guys can work, but with 22 guys on the look-out for spies, I don't think ANYONE is getting any intel scot-free. Beating a man down with two pairs of fists is not that hard if you can catch him. Once bedrock is hit, they ascend again to diamond level and start mining. The other 22 are signaled to come on down. Someone will be dedicated to back-filling the tunnel.
Quick-Brawl affords no time to build a central HQ. Any attempt to pursue them into the tunnels would be suicide, as the hurried nature of the tunnels combined with the sheer quantity of people building them would leave them narrow and confusing to anyone who is unaware of the pattern/schematic the Quick-Brawlers are using. Sure, a hub here or there with a few furnaces that are mildly guarded, but that would be your only reprieve.
Aside from not working fast enough and letting the enemy get well-settled, the only problem I see with the Quick-Brawl is that if you find 1 guy, he's likely to have tons of iron on him, probably unsmelted and unworn.
One thing Banana can always do,
Is the Great Banana Dance...
No blood, ice cold,
But Banana can dance,
Because Banana has a soul
-Onision
I have a new signature as that one was a year (or more?) outdated!