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Quote from FourFire »

"Fun" PVP is cannon to fortress Fortress / siege battle where everyone has lots of gear and the people are sortof balanced : on the server forums

Quote from Woobie »

I dont know much about how these various mods work, but I dont think it should be too difficult to have some land claimed, though not a whole lot. The best PVP Ive ever had was in TItan 1.5 when two towns sprouted up in the same valley and we spent hours trying to kill eachother off. We doused eachothers bases in lava and in the end, the other team built a huge tower with a TNT cannon and started shelling us to try to break into our storerooms. This type of PVP would have been impossible if not for the town system. Without it, it becomes more like: Who dug thier hole farthest away from the spawn, gathered a ton of iron, and raided the new guys with impunity, wins.

so you see what I mean

That's very interesting. how does the "Town" system work? This also brings up the point that people will fight each other "Just 'cause", so we don't have to be too elaborate with thinking of reasons for warfare to occur.

How is a Town defined? What are the effects of an area being designated as a "Town"? Who designates towns? I'm very interested in learning more about this.

Valerius Maximus is correct about the cost of dieing even if the spawn was 100 meters from the base. To die is to become completely disarmed, and you can do nothing unless a friend hands you a weapon. And being disarmed, you do minimal damage, especially to armored enemies. I've seen a video in where people captured a base in which the defendants spawned inside the base. A diamond sword and full armor goes very far. One in full diamond with food will almost infinitely kill a respawning enemy and that's how they won.

So I'd say one of the key aspects to the cost of dieing is armor. Armor with a weapon can grant nearly positive win against one without armor. Think. In perfect condition, it reduces 80% of all damage recieved. In half condition, it grants 40% protection, enough to still grant certain win. But here is the thing. While stone swords can be found on the ground, all armor materials take effort: Leather, gold iron, diamond. The fact that you need to go one mile will make one might as well go the extra making the diamond sword to get more use of the armor. And the base; and the tnt; and the high tech minecart booster complex. And even for close territory, people will actually use tactics.

I would say the team repeatedly respawning would be the frantic state as they say it.

Depending on how beds work, they will probably enable teams to set up forward bases fairly easily where equipment can be stored for fallen attackers to re-equip and rejoin the fight and keep up the pressure. Of course, if an attack fails and the defenders counter-attack, then the would-be attackers might end up getting stuck in an endless re-spawn slaughter in their own outpost.

Something I wonder though is: What happens if the bed that is your current spawn-point gets destroyed? Does your spawn-point revert to the default, or does it remain where the bed was?

One thing that bed-spawning will greatly change is that bases will no longer necessarily be positioned "2 kilometers from spawn", since you can make your spawn BE at a base. Of course you have to get there in the first place...

These videos are of the most realistic smp war I could find on youtube. I thought I'd post them so we could discuss what has been going on. This takes place on "Minecraft 500" I think, but that's a pay server. This is a 4 video series. The last one really is just peace discussion, but still cool.

How will wolves affect war? one person could get a ton of wolves and have an army of viscous dawggies.

This is my first post here. Also, sorry to bring up an old topic, but I think a sky fortress could not only prove critical in a death match, but it can also protect resources for you if its well built and guarded enough. Sure, not all resources will be placed in here, but some possibly can. Seiging a sky fortress is also laughable, because with a tree farm, wheat farm, and mob trap, you could survive almost all of eternity in a seige. Also, for a mob trap, if you have a mob trap that is like 81x30, divide it into two sections. One redirects mobs outside, and the other provides you with materials. Lastly, dogs in war? They actually existed around roman times. To bad the wolves have pretty glitchy AI at the moment.

^
Well, the problem with sky bases is that they can be spotted so very easily. It's very obvious when you see one...as far as natural defense, (mobs natural disasters) they are the best completely. However, people can easily make 1x1 towers and get over to them. So unless they are guarded 24/7 it's a bad idea to have one.

Also, doing things in the sky is usually an offensive practice. I.E. Water Parachuting

Here is my opinion on wolfs. Wolfs are only useful in large numbers, say 3+. If it's any lower then that they do not pose much of a threat. In a 1v1 battle with 3-5+ wolves they can be quite deadly. Your opponent (assuming you have a equal amount of food, weapons and armor) will gain a advantage since you need to focus your attention on the player not the wolves since the player can do the most damage. The problem though is that the wolves can do 2 hits of damage per hit. Therefore if you are unarmored 5 wolves assuming they attack at the same exact time can kill you instantly. Even if you do have armor they will constantly be dealing damage until you kill them. The thing is a wolf has 10 Hearts, it would take two hits from a diamond sword to kill a wolf. Rest assured if you find yourself facing someone with wolfs the best option is book it. The thing is though how do you defend against wolfs? These are some of my ideas.

1. Always carry around a bucket of water. This will repel wolf away from you allowing you to pick them off with arrows. It will also repel the player much better now, since Notch has made water currents stronger.

2. Drop a TNT and set it off, then stand by the TNT until last second. (Risky) The wolfs won't back away like the player and will be blown up and killed. I'm not entirely sure of his method, it would require testing.

I'm interested in what you all think of my opinions and strategies with 1v1 Multiplayer Wolfs. Please don't hesitated to correct me on some things. Now there was also something else I wanted to cover, Wolfs used for larger scale assaults.

In my opinion Wolfs are only useful for large scale battles if it doesn't involve Naval Warfare or attacking a fortified position. If someone for example shoots the player who has wolfs the wolfs will run up and try to attack the person regardless if they are on a wall or not. From there they can easily be picked off by dropping TNT or shooting them with arrows. I would like to also say that if you are hit by friendly fire the wolfs will attack the person who accidentally shot you even if your on there own team. Wolfs do not belong on a battlefield that involves castles or water. In fact I think there only use is for scouting missions and hunting.

Sorry for the terrible grammar I typed this up pretty quickly, as I said before don't hesitate to correct me on anything I'm here for the discussion. It wouldn't be much of a discussion if you just agreed with me.

Quote from Cookiepuss »

^
Well, the problem with sky bases is that they can be spotted so very easily. It's very obvious when you see one...as far as natural defense, (mobs natural disasters) they are the best completely. However, people can easily make 1x1 towers and get over to them. So unless they are guarded 24/7 it's a bad idea to have one.

Also, doing things in the sky is usually an offensive practice. I.E. Water Parachuting

Yeh, sky fortresses are spotted easily. If a sky fortress is at the height limit, 1x1 towers are hard to make, especially while being showered by arrows. Besides, sky fortresses are so big they'll be guarded always, but I see your point.

Quote from Matthew0257 »

These videos are of the most realistic smp war I could find on youtube. I thought I'd post them so we could discuss what has been going on. This takes place on "Minecraft 500" I think, but that's a pay server. This is a 4 video series. The last one really is just peace discussion, but still cool.

Those videos were fascinating, and served to remind me that THE most important thing in warfare is simply the ability to get a bunch of people to travel in a group from one place to another, and how chaotic an confusing a conflict is.

It was also interesting to note that in the first video, the Leader of the attack died after falling into a lava pit. He got taken out by a chump trap! It serves to highlight how effective even simple traps can be against an unprepared foe, and the value of being prepared. Seriously, assaulting an undergound base without bringing any water? A bucket of water and a bucket of lava should be in EVERY soldier's basic equipment.

That brings up another question: What should a soldier's inventory be? What equipment should you carry, and how much? How much food? Building materials? Buckets? Lighters? Obviously wear your best armor and bring a diamond sword, and probably bows and arrows for everyone. But how much ammunition? TNT? Does everybody get TNT or just properly trained soldiers? Diamond picks and shovels too? Does everybody need everything or should you specialize? Should you have 2 wolves per person, or one "beastmaster" with a pack of 20 who designates targets from afar with his bow?

Quote from Hans Lemurson »

Quote from Matthew0257 »

These videos are of the most realistic smp war I could find on youtube. I thought I'd post them so we could discuss what has been going on. This takes place on "Minecraft 500" I think, but that's a pay server. This is a 4 video series. The last one really is just peace discussion, but still cool.

Those videos were fascinating, and served to remind me that THE most important thing in warfare is simply the ability to get a bunch of people to travel in a group from one place to another, and how chaotic an confusing a conflict is.

It was also interesting to note that in the first video, the Leader of the attack died after falling into a lava pit. He got taken out by a chump trap! It serves to highlight how effective even simple traps can be against an unprepared foe, and the value of being prepared. Seriously, assaulting an undergound base without bringing any water? A bucket of water and a bucket of lava should be in EVERY soldier's basic equipment.

That brings up another question: What should a soldier's inventory be? What equipment should you carry, and how much? How much food? Building materials? Buckets? Lighters? Obviously wear your best armor and bring a diamond sword, and probably bows and arrows for everyone. But how much ammunition? TNT? Does everybody get TNT or just properly trained soldiers? Diamond picks and shovels too? Does everybody need everything or should you specialize? Should you have 2 wolves per person, or one "beastmaster" with a pack of 20 who designates targets from afar with his bow?

My idea for a basic, nonspecialized recruit's inventory is sword, armor, bow with 32 arrows, one TNT, a pick, a shovel, one stack cobble/dirt, a bucket of water, a bucket of lava, and some torches.

Also to bring up something else, we need someway to identify friendly troops. Battlefields get chaotic, and you need to be able to tell friend from foe.

As far as inventory goes, the first priority should be to have an item for every basic function. This means you should be ale to do everything one can do in a click or few.

Examples: Lighting, Pillaring, shooting, breaking objects, makeshift well/ pour water, pour lava, use boat, eat, attack, light fire, defend.

You should be ale to do all of these with the least possible materials.
Lighting: 1 stack of 64 torches is plenty.

Pillaring/placing blocks: 1 stack of sand and 1 stack of dirt/cobble.

Shooting: 1 bow, 2 stacks of 64 arrows may be a good portion, but never have stacks of 32. That's a waste.

Breaking objects: You do not need a shovel as dirt etc breaks fast enough without. A diamond/iron pick is plenty.

Makeshift well/ pour water: It's desirable you bring 2 buckets of water so you can make a 2x2 well to get inf water from to do all water functions.

Pour lava: You shouldn't need more than 1 or 2 buckets of lava as you can re scoop.

Use boat: 1 boat, 1 workbench, 1 stack of wood. You can use a boat, and remake them fast. Good for elevators.

Eat: Porkchops are obviously the best if you go through the hassle, otherwise, bread. You can bring a cake for a more "compact" 9 hp to use out of action.

Attack: Sword, and bow. Obvious.

Light fire: Flint/steel. A handy tool.

Defend: Iron armor is plenty. Diamond is a waste as all armors have equal protection, and iron will last long enough.

Why no TNT? TNT is not a basic function, and thus there would not be very useful on a normal troop. It's an advanced function because you need to assemble a cannon, which may take a good 3 minutes, and take a good amount of inventory. There is no use in using TNT without a cannon on a raid, as you can accomplish the same things with pickaxes, lava, flint/steel, etc. so and thus, use of TNT is an advanced function.

Some advanced functions: (Which are functions that encumber the inventory, take over a moment, and may require some knowledge. Advanced fields should onlybe pursued when the basic functions are known to not be enough preferably by trial and error. And even then, make sure you know the basic functions.

TNT: This will take 1 or 2 specialized engineers who bring a stack of redstone , a stack of TNT, 2 waters for well, and a stack of cobble. These people should have great knowledge of cannon physics, and know how to assemble a cannon on the spot, which includes creating a flat foundation, knowing important dimensions, and just knowing where to put each block. They should know how much TNT is needed for each distance.

Make food: This person will bring stacks of bones, Seeds, an iron hoe, and water. He can make food in a reasonable amount of time by using bone-meal to get bread. He should know how to find/make a fast makeshift farming patch and know the fastest logistical way/order of planting seeds, using/making bone-meal , harvesting, and making bread. This may take practice to do fast enough on the go, but can be helpful to make a raid last long.

Redstone doctor: This is somebody, extremely adept with redstone circuitry, who brings redstone equipment (Possible TNT) and uses redstone however helpful, such as linking a TNT detonation to the outside, creating makeshift gatling guns, or any other useful redstone functions. . This is the least necessary individual, and should only be pursued if all of the basic and other advanced functions are mastered. I call this "doctor" because this function has the most complications to get over, the most knowledge required, and the highest difficulty to get a productive use of. He would need to know how to problems such as: "I just made a machine gun, but it fires in one direction and thus enemies can easily avoid it." Knowing this, as opposed to TNT and quick farming, there is no single building format. Although this can be useful as all tactics in a battle in which you are outnumbered and wits is your only tool, but I BEG this not be over-discussed until we get out of the theory and start fighting actual wars.

So you see that there are many functions that any troop can easily perform, and it is a great advantage to be able to do any of them. The advanced functions are more diffcult ones that take time and knowledge to do, and only need 1 person or so in each position.

This is a pretty good interpretation of The Art of War to minecraft. Indeed I 'm glad that there are others that understand the high degree of tatical realism allowed by this game. There are a few things that could use mentioning though. (please excuse me if they have already been said, but I really don't feel like reading through 20 pages of comments) First, although cart travel is very useful, it is also VERY expensive and one must wonder if that iron would'nt be better spent on equipment. Second, as my lovely Military History magazine often says, "Amatuers talk tactics, experts talk logistics". How do you ensure that all of your depots are well stocked while still maitaining fast and steathly movement? How do you harvest large amounts of surface resources (sand,wood) without leaving a trace? Finally, in regards to the Airship base idea, you do realize that you are completely cut-off from resources (unless you make a very small mob-farm) right? While you can hold off attackers almost indefinately, unless they spawn a great distance away, they can simply force you to waste all your ammo, starving you out with a token force while the rest wait for you to come down for supplies. Any paratroopers sent down to clear the area would be isolated (unless skillful use of boats employed) and in danger of friendly fire. Of course this is just $0.02 from an amateur. :/

Quote from Matthew0257 »

As far as inventory goes, the first priority should be to have an item for every basic function.
...
Examples: Lighting, Pillaring, shooting, breaking objects, makeshift well/ pour water, pour lava, use boat, eat, attack, light fire, defend.
...

That's a very good analysis of what a soldier should bring along with them, and looks suspiciously similar to my inventory whenever I go out adventuring. That's a good thing, since it means that an effective load-out is largely based on the common sense available to any reasonably skilled player. The main thing which I think will need to be kept in mind for new soldiers is buckets. Buckets of water and lava are invaluable tools. A soldier who is on fire is half-blind and disoriented. Also bring more ammo than you think you'll need (assuming you can afford it).

Quote from rawgt3 »

Second, as my lovely Military History magazine often says, "Amatuers talk tactics, experts talk logistics". How do you ensure that all of your depots are well stocked while still maitaining fast and steathly movement?

I love that quote. Tactics is about winning the battle you're in right now; Logistics is about winning the battle before it starts, and then winning the next one as well. It's all about getting a large group of people carrying to move as a group from one place to another, and making sure that they'll have weapons, armor, and ammo to fight with when they get there.

I don't however think that the transportation of resources will be an issue. In minecraft, you can carry an entire CHEST'S-WORTH of materiel on your person without any penalty to movement or maneuverability. 1 stack of diamond blocks is 576 gems, which is enough to arm and equip ~20 soldiers (armor, sword and pick). 2 stacks of wood, 1 stack of string, 5 stacks each of flint and feathers, and now all 20 soldiers have a Bow and 128 arrows. One single person has a sufficient carrying capacity to arm and equip an entire platoon. (except for building materials, but the soldiers can get those themselves, the lazy bums!)

The real issue in my mind is GETTING the materials in the first place.

I put some thought into sky fortresses. Now, I'm no tactician, but maybe that works in my benefit in this case; "Anyone who thinks it's foolproof obviously underestimates the ingenuity of fools." At any rate, my thoughts:

1) It seems to me that the most important thing to consider when building a sky fortress is the terrain; specifically, the terrain under it. Since the sky fortress' best defense is it's sheer difficulty to reach when properly defended, one would benefit from maximizing this effect. A forest would require significant clearing for TNT Cannons to be used effectively, and could easily be set ablaze from your fortress. A flat, empty plain, or among a bunch of mountains, on the other hand, would be terrible; The flat land would be really easy to set up a siege on, and the mountains provide a high point to stack-elevator to your fortress much faster. In my humble opinion, the best, though most difficult to build over terrain would be open sea; The deeper and further from land, the better. The enemy would have to arrive by sea, and, assuming your ground-level access has been properly removed, either build a land bridge all the way to your fortress, or try and drop enough sand in to stack all the way up from the bottom of the ocean, just to even begin attempting to set up a platform to place their siege weapons on.

2) Running with that same train of thought, it may also be beneficial, if resource restraints permit, to build a secondary fortress directly under your primary sky fortress. Minimal resources kept there, this fortress' main purpose is to make laying siege to your main fortress just that much more expensive and that much more difficult, since it would have to be cleared before an attack on the main base can begin. This, of course, can get expensive, but at the same time, if you're building yourself Cloud City, you're probably not short on resources. Ultimately, anything one can do to add the already heavy logistical difficulty of assaulting a sky fortress is playing on your strengths.

3) Sky Fortresses also have one other unique benefit; they're not vulnerable to attacks from above. As such, one can focus their entire defense on the bottom, a little bit of defense on the sides, and then open air and sunshine. I would personally through a sort-of upside down pyramid of dirt underneath the actual defensive layer to give it a more "floating island" feel. I could make a flimsy excuse of how it would be a cheap but easily breaches T1 defense, but I won't; I just want my fortress to look cool and feel cool to live in.

4) I was thinking, a time may come when your fortress falls, and you're faced with a new problem; How the deuce do you retreat? I haven't done any actual testing on this, so maybe someone else can refine my design. It's a little canal of water, sloping downward, which leads out a hole in the side of the base. A boat is placed at the top of the water slope, then jumped into. The water will take the boat and it's rider out the hole (possibly fling them, as I said, I haven't done any testing). Since you don't take fall damage while in a boat, the rider should land safely. If I'm right, and it does fling you, you'll hopefully land outside of the baffled enemy's perimeter. If I'm not, I would suggest building your sky fortress near a body of water of some kind; It's not likely to be well defended by the attackers, as it is somewhat of a natural barrier, and you can then use the same boat to make a speedy escape. If this works as well as I know it probably doesn't, it could serve the additional purpose of paratroopers, which, if utilized properly, could revolutionize combat, since the roof is almost always a weak point. Of course, I assume that no one has thought of this before, which may be bold of me, but it's better to look stupid than to keep it to myself, I suppose.

Those are my uneducated and possibly wrong/unoriginal thoughts on sky fortresses. I'll save my thoughts on the topics on the list for another post, to keep things neat, and to avoid making my long-winded ramblings longer than need be. That, and I'd like to think on them a bit more.

I think one or two TNT is nice for even an umtrained soldier. Just blow a hole in the enemies' cobblestone castle :wink.gif:

Of course, this doesn't work on better defended fortresses...

The one thing I am having problem thinking about after all this talk of equipment. How do you get all the materials? For a full set of tools and armor, that is 32 iron. With buckets, that is a lot of mining to do that might not even be used longed enough to take effect. Arrows will also be hard to get. Flint doesn't drop 100% of the time, and it could be a while to get all the components for your army. All of these things sound great, but the thing you need to think about is affording it.

Quote from commanderfordo »

The one thing I am having problem thinking about after all this talk of equipment. How do you get all the materials? For a full set of tools and armor, that is 32 iron. With buckets, that is a lot of mining to do that might not even be used longed enough to take effect. Arrows will also be hard to get. Flint doesn't drop 100% of the time, and it could be a while to get all the components for your army. All of these things sound great, but the thing you need to think about is affording it.

You bring up a good point, which I brought up and was discussed on page 31 of this thread. viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=82734&start=900#p3050159
Read Valerius Maximus' reply as well.

Basicly, the seeming high costs for armor and ammunition in Single-Player are a result of "thinking small". Any serious base in SMP will have a mob-trap, and with proper methodologies, half an hour of dedicated mining can get you enough iron for a suit of armor. Also remember that you have team-mates with whom you can work together with to make an area mob-safe for construction or help you mine out passages and chambers.

When the efforts of players are put together towards a concrete goal, then you can accomplish much more significant than you might do alone in single-player.

However, all of this will be affected by just how frequent attacks and raids are, which is itself affected by the distance that fortresses are from each other. If fortresses are too close to each other, then warfare will include a fair amount of "naked people with stone swords". However, the more down-time there is between attacks and the more you can focus on resource gathering as opposed to unproductive military ventures, then the overall level of equipment will increase.

Also remember that although armor is very expensive, it grants you a MASSIVE bonus in combat over unarmored enemies. It's main down-side is actually that it cannot be repaired, so suicide attacks can wear you down. So long as the "cost of death" is high enough though, it is unlikely that armored soldiers will be worn down by a constant stream of suiciders.

Quote from commanderfordo »

The one thing I am having problem thinking about after all this talk of equipment. How do you get all the materials? For a full set of tools and armor, that is 32 iron. With buckets, that is a lot of mining to do that might not even be used longed enough to take effect. Arrows will also be hard to get. Flint doesn't drop 100% of the time, and it could be a while to get all the components for your army. All of these things sound great, but the thing you need to think about is affording it.

As of iron, an efficient miner can accumulate a large enough amount for it to be worthwhile. Remember that since you're always risking armor (or suicide), it's worthwhile to go the extra mile in bringing buckets.

Arrows are efficiently produced by mob towers, which will be a key structure in war, and the fighter should plan to make them efficiently. Mob towers are the only efficient way to obtain arrows and sulfur, and since the bow is practically a machine gun against swords, it will provide a deciding advantage.

Deciding to mine underground mob towers may be beneficial in killing two birds with one stone: Getting iron and also making hidden mob towers.

An efficient mob tower will produce more than enough for war in a short time, so it will just be a yes or no factor for TNT and bows, which are deciding factors.


I really like who brought up the issue of minecart stations. That practically sums up the whole point I was trying to make with the in game war having different objectives than a real war. In a real war, transportation is viable as people without transportation are bogged down. In addition, many servers have "warps" which may render this obsolete. Especially knowing the boat trick where you line a pass of boats 3 blocks apart, where you rapidly right click entering each boat, which is practically warp speed.

To he who said TNT can be good on an untrained soldier to blow up a wall, the same thing can be done with a pickaxe, without getting hurt or making a big notice. Again, although the cool Modern Warfare 2 wall breach may sound good, you're really just giving yourself away as opposed to silently digging through the walls, and then jumping in with your bow.

Quote from Matthew0257 »

To he who said TNT can be good on an untrained soldier to blow up a wall, the same thing can be done with a pickaxe, without getting hurt or making a big notice. Again, although the cool Modern Warfare 2 wall breach may sound good, you're really just giving yourself away as opposed to silently digging through the walls, and then jumping in with your bow.

Also, when you give someone something, they tend to want to use it, even if they don't need to. Unless you have a really disciplined army, you're going to have a lot of TNT going off when it doesn't need to, a lot of TNT wasted, and a lot of people killing themselves trying to use TNT for things they don't need it for.

In regards to the Nether: Talk of Nether-travel reminds me of Hannibal's march through the Alps. If you don't know anything about it, look it up, it's pretty cool history. The short version is, while marching across the Alps, Hannibal became frustrated at how slow his army was moving, and struck out in front of them to show them how it's done, slamming his walking stink into the ice. This caused an avalanche, which buried almost half his army. While this mistake caused him to lose his war against the Romans (which had profound effects on the world as we know it) it still allowed Hannibal have the element of surprise on the Romans; They thought no one would be stupid enough to march through such dangerous terrain.

I've noticed several people discredit the use of the Nether, since the enemy could simply make a portal in their own base, and booby trap it. What I propose is this: What about a portal near their base? Obviously, marching your troops out inside the enemy HQ would be more effective, but barring that, you can still achieve a great amount of surprise if a portal suddenly opens outside the enemy walls and your brave soldiers come pouring out. Just like there are TNT Cannon technicians now, there may be Portal technicians (or something more magical sounding; POOOOORTAL MAAAAAGES!) who specialize in the effective placement of Nether portals to drop troops on the real world. Also, Nether Troops sounds cool.