Im pretty sure wars will erupt on SMP, as the servers start. Assuming that the server admins say killing people is okay, it will probably be something like this:
Day one on SMP server X
Guy A: check it out i found diamonds!!
Guy B: i have a bow, though.
*ptchow, ptchow, ptchow*
Guy B: Check it out, i found diamonds!!
Guy A: Hey buddy, that guy just killed me!
Guy C: Lets gang up on him!
and it escalates from there.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Dark_Petal »
Why, let's flame each other over something as trivial as the footsteps of a walking penis.
As I read this thread, all I can think of is this: Whatever you do, don't walk directly over usual floor, or you will get blow up. The amount of TNT traps, plus how easy it is to make one...
As I read this thread, all I can think of is this: Whatever you do, don't walk directly over usual floor, or you will get blow up. The amount of TNT traps, plus how easy it is to make one...
The problem is; and I don't think a lot of people in this thread have really mentioned it: While tunneling, you have limited field of view, you have a pick/shovel equipped, close quarter combat is exceptionally deadly. If you and another player face off 1v1 in a tunnel, someone will most certainly die. Whoever is outnumbered in a tunnel will almost certainly die. On an open battlefield or when manuevering around defensive fortifications such as strongholds, bunkers, trenches, forts, towers, etc, this is simply not the case. Forces with strong defensive positions have advantage and the army which is attacking must make use of the lay of the land along with feints and proper tactics in order to break an enemies defense. Think "war of attrition".
Likewise, if you die on an open field of battle with friends nearby your corpse you do not run as much of a risk of losing all of your equipment. If you die in a tunnel, however, you've probably lost everything, and getting back to your position from spawn is much more difficult.
This is one reason why I say I do not think that tunneling will be the primary form of warfare in Minecraft. I'm sure it will have its place, but open field combat will as well.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Spark becomes a flame.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
Just want to point out that, although all these devices for communicating between bases sound really cool, I don't think there's really much point outside of an RP server unless you can somehow come up with one that works better than:
Enter
*type message*
Enter
And if there's no team chat for you to keep your messages secret, there is still Ventrilo and similar programs.
But, if you use something like that, the board will be flooded with messanges from tons of people. This lets you prevent mistakes like the guys missing it, or other guys thinking it was ment for them.
@http404error
Well, I believe it was first smurfsahoy, and then SunTzu himself that enlightened me to the most simple fact of warfare: Information and stealth take priority over all things, for they turn the tides of the battle.
I fail to understand what you mean.
Damn forums ate my post again. Is this happening to anyone else?
@Joxon
Indeed, if anyone can come up with good tactics for specific game modes, submit them right away for critiquing :biggrin.gif:
@Dezuman
Thanks :smile.gif:
When you say a homogenous spread of resources... do you mean heterogenous? Homogenous means "Even throughout".
@Munkii100
Don't worry. There will be no COD: Minecraft Warfare
@Peekayer... I never downloaded Geeks map... maybe I should go back and find it XD. I'm a jerk.
@AyeGill
That fake tunnel is pretty good to catch a spy who is sneaky, but dumb :tongue.gif:
Or just the unaware person. If you include the right image URLS [I think you missed one] and when BBcode is fixed... I'll update the OP.
@CaveHyrbid
Perhaps I'll add some more quotes someday
@arkhibas
Coverfire is essentially flanking, which is an okay tactic.
Trenches are bad. As far as we can tell. Maybe for short term, temporary cover... but don't expect to be safe in one.
@MoreOne
Hehe, watch your step!
@EtherImp
Nobody expects to have huge scale battles underground. But you're right, if something like that does happen... it'll be hell.
@ Everyone:
A few things...
1. I can't update the OP until BBcode is fixed, otherwise the WHOLE THING will be really screwed up.
That said... I still have the list of things I need to do, no worries.
2. Maybe people should start posting on the Orsa Novus Aevum Forums that I created. If you sign up you don't HAVE to be in the clan... you can just use it to post up your suggestions. This way, they won't get all lost in this thread. I feel like a jerk sometimes realizing I missed a good suggestion in the middle of the huge influx of posts.
3. If we're ever going to have our own server... unless someone steps up it'll have to be run from my house off one of my unused desktops. I have a decent connection... so it won't be terrible... but it won't be as good as some dedicated servers. There IS CarnageCraft by Javelin, but so far that can only hold 10 people, and it's not really OUR server despite a lot of us having admin in it...
4. Keep the ideas coming guys :smile.gif:
Edit:
@Http404error:
It keeps happening to me to.
In the current game mode known as SMP, what is of the utmost importance is hiding your resources from everyone else. Knowledge and information are always important resources to have control over, in any type of war. If you control the flow of information, and know the decisions that you opponents will make, you can counter their moves quite easily.
One spy CAN ruin an entire base. If they find the location. That's why it's up to you to find somewhere in a world 8 times the size of the Earth to hide your resources so nobody can find them.
If you're talking about capture the flag mode and fortresses... I'd like to see one spy break into the most important and heavily guarded regions of a fortress...
One spy CAN ruin an entire base. If they find the location. That's why it's up to you to find somewhere in a world 8 times the size of the Earth to hide your resources so nobody can find them.
If you're talking about capture the flag mode and fortresses... I'd like to see one spy break into the most important and heavily guarded regions of a fortress...
I don't see why the best spies can't actually be working FOR the enemy. That guy Bill who's been chillin' with us for the last three months may as well be a Spartan spy. Or Philip, who just finished getting us those x8 diamonds and is making his way to the treasure room could be a spy as well. I tend to think more cold warry when I'm talking about spies. The guy who just got elected president, been chilling with us for the last 8 months, commanded a squad that ransacked those Roman boys base back on the fourth of july? Was a spy from our good friend King Midas all along.
If war goes down in Minecraft, I'm thinking it's going down for a good, long time. The majority of the player base is teenage boys, after all. They're gonna be shooting at any damn thing they see, and considering after the first war or so, a couple of chaps are going to be taking this all personal like. Wouldn't surprise me if those jokers down at the little army had five members of there's chillin' out on Sunday afternoons in the big army fortress, minin' and diggin' and singin' bout how sweet that diamond is gonna look in their own little personal collection.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"What is this, some kind of steel blade? Looks delicious," says the Tasmanian devil. "Don't mind if I do."
Everything you say is possible, but also unavoidable and implied.
I could be a spy, secretly trying to sucker you all into using terrible tactics so that I can defeat you in a war,
You have to draw the line somewhere, and place your trust in your best soldiers. If they defect, then it's your fault for either not paying them enough attention, or a fair share of the army's resources. Or they could just be greedy as hell...
Hide, and hide well is still my only advice against spies =/
If you can come up with something better [which you probably can] let me know so I can put it in the OP!
Valerius, I have a server I just opened with the concept of Nations and Wars in mind, I would GLADLY let you and your friends use it. P.S. You can die from lava here. viewtopic.php?f=1014&t=90449
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
stercus accidit
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
to quote sun tzu "Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate."
According to the master the tactics and strategy we employ in war should be very subtle and very secretive.
I believe he hints at spies and scouts and hidden traps.
Sun Tzu isn't ONLY referring to tricks and traps and espionage. He's also referring to the actual direction of your army and the messages the opposing armys' envoys receive. "All war is based on deception." If you are about to surge forward, you want to appear to be falling back... if you are falling back, you do so with a great push. If you are going to attack the flank, you want them to expect you elsewhere. If you are strong, you must appear weak to your enemy, if you are weak, you must appear strong. This applies to *everything* including (perhaps especially) the politics.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Spark becomes a flame.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
a) Resource Fight: Whichever side is able to get more x amount of a certain resource (Not necessarely diamond) wins the game. No life limit.
:cool.gif: Real war: All sides meet in a single field. They are given a certain amount of time to create defenses and get resources. Once the time is up, both teams rush eachother to try to take the enemies' base. Players have only one life, so it keeps thing interesting and somewhat fast. Whoever kills everyone first or captures the enemy base first wins.
c) Capture the flag: Much like the previous one, but with no life limit, a time limit and multiple bases. The bases will have a chest with resources that form said flag. The knowledge of what code the flag is will be enouth to say it is "captured". When time is up, all leaders get together and whoever captured the most flags wins.
d) The totem creator: One team objective is to finish a building (Something not too long to be created), while the other team tries to destroy the totem. Whoever can destroy it to the last block or complete it wins. A bit like old AoE wonder buildings :smile.gif:
Pretty much, as the game is, you'll need cooperation with the players, one impartial guy to judge all the actions, and some hours, that can be split into different days so the challenge keeps interesting. Definately, there's potential, because you can create any game with cooperation...
Idea: Insurance plan
For your base, make 1 or 2 secret entrences. And i mean secret. only have your most trusted builders make it. you dig into a certain area, and you come into a room with an iron door and a lever. make sure that the builders hide it so that the outside area looks natural, but also make sure you will be able to find it somehow. To protect against enemies accidentaly finding it, get a very trusted engineer (aka redstone guy) to build a logic gate for the door. the circut will also go to tnt hidden in the floor, and another hidden lever. unless this lever is also used, the circut will send a charge to the tnt, killing the enemy (i dont know how to make that myself, but i dont know much about redstone, and i am certain a competent engineer could make that). If your base is taken by the enemy, you can lead your troops to here. The tunnel would lead to an area that you pour out of, overwelming the enemies.
Idea: Fast travel
At first, i liked the idea for having an underground railway between bases (for traveling, and sending resources). However, this would require a lot of track, and could be found. BUT, you could have the railway in the nether. The portal is (somewhat) hidden within the base. Your builders would dig up a bunch of nether stone (preferably in a way that wouldnt produce something that looked like a man-made gap) and cover up the portal's nether side in a way that looked natural. Then, the track leads underground, to prevent any scouts in the nether from finding it (after all, what reason would anyone have to dig underground in the nether right next to the enemy base?) So, your railway is now hidden, as well as shortened (compression of 16 in the nether).
Another thing isnt so much a tactic as it is a good idea. Make sure everyone (including yourself) knows how the clan is run. They should have a rough idea of who the higher ranking members are, and what the rules are. The higher ranking members should have it drilled into them that their rank does not grant them immunity from any of the rules. Everyone should know that higher ranking members do not have the ability to give people orders that go against the rules, and that anybody who follows those orders is guilty of breaking the rules. You yourself should make sure you understand how your chain of command works. If you are using some sort of what i call the Unit System (these guys are in a lvl 1 group which is commanded by this guy, these lvl 1 groups are in a lvl 2 group commanded by this guy, these lvl 2 groups... etc. up to you) you should have a rough idea of how everthing is set up, and try to make sure that everyone knows who they take orders from. That way, you eleminate alot of confusion that could take place. I speak from experience, because i play a game that is slightly like this, and it has clans that go to war with eachother.
Day one on SMP server X
Guy A: check it out i found diamonds!!
Guy B: i have a bow, though.
*ptchow, ptchow, ptchow*
Guy B: Check it out, i found diamonds!!
Guy A: Hey buddy, that guy just killed me!
Guy C: Lets gang up on him!
and it escalates from there.
http://img257.imageshack.us/i/entrancex.jpg/
What's that, an enemy tunnel? I think i'll check it out, maybe unravel their secret plans or something.
http://img192.imageshack.us/i/closery.jpg/
Awesome, a chest. I guess this is supply!
(can you spot the pressure plates on the floor?)
http://img138.imageshack.us/i/lighted.jpg/
(how about now)
http://img139.imageshack.us/i/revealed.jpg/
This is what happens when you think you can mess with our secret plans. You get to mess with our cache of TnT instead.
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
The problem is; and I don't think a lot of people in this thread have really mentioned it: While tunneling, you have limited field of view, you have a pick/shovel equipped, close quarter combat is exceptionally deadly. If you and another player face off 1v1 in a tunnel, someone will most certainly die. Whoever is outnumbered in a tunnel will almost certainly die. On an open battlefield or when manuevering around defensive fortifications such as strongholds, bunkers, trenches, forts, towers, etc, this is simply not the case. Forces with strong defensive positions have advantage and the army which is attacking must make use of the lay of the land along with feints and proper tactics in order to break an enemies defense. Think "war of attrition".
Likewise, if you die on an open field of battle with friends nearby your corpse you do not run as much of a risk of losing all of your equipment. If you die in a tunnel, however, you've probably lost everything, and getting back to your position from spawn is much more difficult.
This is one reason why I say I do not think that tunneling will be the primary form of warfare in Minecraft. I'm sure it will have its place, but open field combat will as well.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
But, if you use something like that, the board will be flooded with messanges from tons of people. This lets you prevent mistakes like the guys missing it, or other guys thinking it was ment for them.
I fail to understand what you mean.
Damn forums ate my post again. Is this happening to anyone else?
Indeed, if anyone can come up with good tactics for specific game modes, submit them right away for critiquing :biggrin.gif:
@Dezuman
Thanks :smile.gif:
When you say a homogenous spread of resources... do you mean heterogenous? Homogenous means "Even throughout".
@Munkii100
Don't worry. There will be no COD: Minecraft Warfare
@Peekayer... I never downloaded Geeks map... maybe I should go back and find it XD. I'm a jerk.
@AyeGill
That fake tunnel is pretty good to catch a spy who is sneaky, but dumb :tongue.gif:
Or just the unaware person. If you include the right image URLS [I think you missed one] and when BBcode is fixed... I'll update the OP.
@CaveHyrbid
Perhaps I'll add some more quotes someday
@arkhibas
Coverfire is essentially flanking, which is an okay tactic.
Trenches are bad. As far as we can tell. Maybe for short term, temporary cover... but don't expect to be safe in one.
@MoreOne
Hehe, watch your step!
@EtherImp
Nobody expects to have huge scale battles underground. But you're right, if something like that does happen... it'll be hell.
@ Everyone:
A few things...
1. I can't update the OP until BBcode is fixed, otherwise the WHOLE THING will be really screwed up.
That said... I still have the list of things I need to do, no worries.
2. Maybe people should start posting on the Orsa Novus Aevum Forums that I created. If you sign up you don't HAVE to be in the clan... you can just use it to post up your suggestions. This way, they won't get all lost in this thread. I feel like a jerk sometimes realizing I missed a good suggestion in the middle of the huge influx of posts.
3. If we're ever going to have our own server... unless someone steps up it'll have to be run from my house off one of my unused desktops. I have a decent connection... so it won't be terrible... but it won't be as good as some dedicated servers. There IS CarnageCraft by Javelin, but so far that can only hold 10 people, and it's not really OUR server despite a lot of us having admin in it...
4. Keep the ideas coming guys :smile.gif:
Edit:
@Http404error:
It keeps happening to me to.
In the current game mode known as SMP, what is of the utmost importance is hiding your resources from everyone else. Knowledge and information are always important resources to have control over, in any type of war. If you control the flow of information, and know the decisions that you opponents will make, you can counter their moves quite easily.
COme in with 64 blocks. Make a 64 block tower in the middle of their base reaaaal quick. Drop a lava bucket on top of the thing.
This happens?
One spy CAN ruin an entire base. If they find the location. That's why it's up to you to find somewhere in a world 8 times the size of the Earth to hide your resources so nobody can find them.
If you're talking about capture the flag mode and fortresses... I'd like to see one spy break into the most important and heavily guarded regions of a fortress...
I don't see why the best spies can't actually be working FOR the enemy. That guy Bill who's been chillin' with us for the last three months may as well be a Spartan spy. Or Philip, who just finished getting us those x8 diamonds and is making his way to the treasure room could be a spy as well. I tend to think more cold warry when I'm talking about spies. The guy who just got elected president, been chilling with us for the last 8 months, commanded a squad that ransacked those Roman boys base back on the fourth of july? Was a spy from our good friend King Midas all along.
If war goes down in Minecraft, I'm thinking it's going down for a good, long time. The majority of the player base is teenage boys, after all. They're gonna be shooting at any damn thing they see, and considering after the first war or so, a couple of chaps are going to be taking this all personal like. Wouldn't surprise me if those jokers down at the little army had five members of there's chillin' out on Sunday afternoons in the big army fortress, minin' and diggin' and singin' bout how sweet that diamond is gonna look in their own little personal collection.
I could be a spy, secretly trying to sucker you all into using terrible tactics so that I can defeat you in a war,
You have to draw the line somewhere, and place your trust in your best soldiers. If they defect, then it's your fault for either not paying them enough attention, or a fair share of the army's resources. Or they could just be greedy as hell...
Hide, and hide well is still my only advice against spies =/
If you can come up with something better [which you probably can] let me know so I can put it in the OP!
viewtopic.php?f=1014&t=90449
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
@Valerius
you gotta put that water pressure plate thing in the OP. its very useful as a delay switch.
EDIT:new users to CarnageCraft cannot build until promoted by a mod. @Valerius, you can use the /promote command to allow people to build.
Whoops, you're right!
fixin' now
Sun Tzu isn't ONLY referring to tricks and traps and espionage. He's also referring to the actual direction of your army and the messages the opposing armys' envoys receive. "All war is based on deception." If you are about to surge forward, you want to appear to be falling back... if you are falling back, you do so with a great push. If you are going to attack the flank, you want them to expect you elsewhere. If you are strong, you must appear weak to your enemy, if you are weak, you must appear strong. This applies to *everything* including (perhaps especially) the politics.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
a) Resource Fight: Whichever side is able to get more x amount of a certain resource (Not necessarely diamond) wins the game. No life limit.
:cool.gif: Real war: All sides meet in a single field. They are given a certain amount of time to create defenses and get resources. Once the time is up, both teams rush eachother to try to take the enemies' base. Players have only one life, so it keeps thing interesting and somewhat fast. Whoever kills everyone first or captures the enemy base first wins.
c) Capture the flag: Much like the previous one, but with no life limit, a time limit and multiple bases. The bases will have a chest with resources that form said flag. The knowledge of what code the flag is will be enouth to say it is "captured". When time is up, all leaders get together and whoever captured the most flags wins.
d) The totem creator: One team objective is to finish a building (Something not too long to be created), while the other team tries to destroy the totem. Whoever can destroy it to the last block or complete it wins. A bit like old AoE wonder buildings :smile.gif:
Pretty much, as the game is, you'll need cooperation with the players, one impartial guy to judge all the actions, and some hours, that can be split into different days so the challenge keeps interesting. Definately, there's potential, because you can create any game with cooperation...
For your base, make 1 or 2 secret entrences. And i mean secret. only have your most trusted builders make it. you dig into a certain area, and you come into a room with an iron door and a lever. make sure that the builders hide it so that the outside area looks natural, but also make sure you will be able to find it somehow. To protect against enemies accidentaly finding it, get a very trusted engineer (aka redstone guy) to build a logic gate for the door. the circut will also go to tnt hidden in the floor, and another hidden lever. unless this lever is also used, the circut will send a charge to the tnt, killing the enemy (i dont know how to make that myself, but i dont know much about redstone, and i am certain a competent engineer could make that). If your base is taken by the enemy, you can lead your troops to here. The tunnel would lead to an area that you pour out of, overwelming the enemies.
Idea: Fast travel
At first, i liked the idea for having an underground railway between bases (for traveling, and sending resources). However, this would require a lot of track, and could be found. BUT, you could have the railway in the nether. The portal is (somewhat) hidden within the base. Your builders would dig up a bunch of nether stone (preferably in a way that wouldnt produce something that looked like a man-made gap) and cover up the portal's nether side in a way that looked natural. Then, the track leads underground, to prevent any scouts in the nether from finding it (after all, what reason would anyone have to dig underground in the nether right next to the enemy base?) So, your railway is now hidden, as well as shortened (compression of 16 in the nether).
Another thing isnt so much a tactic as it is a good idea. Make sure everyone (including yourself) knows how the clan is run. They should have a rough idea of who the higher ranking members are, and what the rules are. The higher ranking members should have it drilled into them that their rank does not grant them immunity from any of the rules. Everyone should know that higher ranking members do not have the ability to give people orders that go against the rules, and that anybody who follows those orders is guilty of breaking the rules. You yourself should make sure you understand how your chain of command works. If you are using some sort of what i call the Unit System (these guys are in a lvl 1 group which is commanded by this guy, these lvl 1 groups are in a lvl 2 group commanded by this guy, these lvl 2 groups... etc. up to you) you should have a rough idea of how everthing is set up, and try to make sure that everyone knows who they take orders from. That way, you eleminate alot of confusion that could take place. I speak from experience, because i play a game that is slightly like this, and it has clans that go to war with eachother.
This is my first time trying to explain anything like this. Feel free to re-word it and post again
Build a 2 block deep trench where your hallway will be
Place your iron door
Build a section under your door
Dig 2 blocks down from there
Place a candle
Place a sand block on that
Place a redstone torch on that (your door is now fixed open)
Fill the space next to it
Run redstone wire from this opening to your pressure plate
Place a water bucket (dig a little hole for the water to run into on the right)
Then remove the blocks next to your water
Seal up the floor
Build a hallway
When they step on the pressure plate, it will activate the water and kill the torch which will lock the door
While this does utilize various glitches, and that can be frowned upon. It is my belief that not using techniques your enemy WILL BE, is very foolish.
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