@Doctor
I'm going to have to say that the Father Winter defense is definitely not going to work out in Minecraft...
Destroying your own sources of resources... why not just pick up your chests and go... instead of destroying everything.
I mean, In real war... the russians couldn't carry their farms and buildings and large amount of resources along with them as they retreated... that's why they destroyed it all, but in Minecraft you can carry mountains in your pocket.
Also @Joe
I agree with you.
I figured I'd show Spehss Mahreen what his idea looked like, and hoped he would realize it isn't truly viable in Minecraft based off of the many weaknesses it harbors.
It was a good attempt at defining a strategy, however.
So yeah... didn't get much done today, well... actually it was a pretty productive day mentally, not so much physically. All I did was add 2 of Aninimouse's traps to the OP
However I've restructured my TODO list with priority rankings:
Things to work on:
# = Low Priority
* = High priority
* Hidden Underground storage / bases + Smurf's coding idea + Dead Drops by Joe
* Different Building Types [Barracks... Storage... Etc]
* Ranks?
Evacuation and Retreat systems...
Breach & Clear? Sky Rappeling?
Alert lights / Security alert systems
Power of slowsand on Ice?
Floors in front of bases being made out of sand or gravel to show where enemies are burrowing?
# Viability of Monster Dungeons?
# Joe + His dock? [only low priority because I'm not working on it myself, meaning I don't have to do anything for it except wait]
# The Nether + Defense against Portal Seiges by Kromeh? [I already explained that the Nether will be taking lower priority at the moment]
# Snowballs as a distracting agent. [This is really low priority right now XD]
# Minecart decapitation Sabotage - Alinim? [I kind of don't like that it uses glitches of getting people's head stuck in blocks... I don't know.
# Aninimouse People Cannon? - Very impractical... but if he can build a small one that is compact and works for jumping over walls too dangerous to break I guess it could have some use!
I think I'm done for tonight guys. Talk to you in the morning unless I have any major mental breakthroughs!
@Dotor G33k
I'll certainly mention coding! You saw how ecstatic I was when Smurf suggested it XD
I guess I'll mention some possible codes, it wouldn't hurt. I'll read your post in a second.
Edit: Encoding maps into buildings is an interesting idea, I like it.
Morse code and Semaphore might just be more trouble than they're worth... but nonetheless they're possibilities...
@Spehss Mahreen, the only problem I have with your momentum theory is this: "Burn what we can"... That's not the greatest idea... you should probably try and salvage the base for yourself instead...
This is what I've come up with, re-written to the guide's standards...
The Momentum Theory/Technique (Concept by Spehss Mahreen):
The theory assumes the enemy has multiple bases which you know the location of.
This theory only holds true if all bases are disjointed enough that an attack on one base does not alert any other bases.
The Momentum Theory states that after one successful raid on a base, by moving quickly enough to another base, you will be able to catch them off guard.
In catching this base off guard, the amount of time it takes to destroy their morale and formation is drastically lowered, allowing you to move on the the next base even quicker.
This exponential increase in momentum will continue to increase until fortresses not longer even know you are approaching at all, at which point you are basically staging surprise attack after surprise attack.
Points to consider:
- The most important city to topple in this theory is the first. It is the building block upon which you will build all further momentum. Fail in the beginning and you're screwed.
- Fail anywhere in the middle and all momentum is lost.
- Attempt to occupy all cities fully before leaving, or they can simply quickly rebuild and act almost as if you had never been there.
The major strengths of the Momentum Technique:
You can inflict massive damage quickly and without the enemy being able to launch a retaliatory strike.
The major downfalls of the Momentum Technique:
There are too many conditions for the Momentum Technique to be put into use often... it's really for use in a specialized situation when you're certain the enemy is set up in a particular way.
Fair enough.
The major reason why I would burn is because I'm a raider, and as a raider, I don't wish to gain land so much as gain loot. The more the merrier.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Warriors of Chaos!!!
Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle - So many ways to die, so few times to do so.
The only problem I have with the Momentum theory is the part about bases being not as prepared as you progress, perhaps not even expecting an attack. Information, at least in the current game state, is ridiculously easy to spread to others through instant messaging, so if you are under attack, you msg the team, "hey we're under attack". Now everyone knows.
That brings me to my second point. Many of the ideas and theories in this thread are dependent on PVP format. As the rules differ, some strategies may be more or less viable. Things like respawning, win conditions, etc. change everything. Setting a standard for consideration would save many people from pointless criticisms or protracted arguments. I just feel that the OP is too general about this.
I also think that the tactical part of the OP is too neglected and this thread is turning into a trap collection. It has been a while since i last read the Art of War, and I think that it should be the primary inspiration.
Ho, in the Future, Notch plans to make freezing cold damage unprepared players garbed in something like cold iron in the future, so weather might play an important role in battle yet. Until then however,it's best that one plans for current circumstances for once HP becomes multiplayer-server wide, as I can guarantee you, reloading fishing poles and similar curiosities will not be forever!
The only problem I have with the Momentum theory is the part about bases being not as prepared as you progress, perhaps not even expecting an attack. Information, at least in the current game state, is ridiculously easy to spread to others through instant messaging, so if you are under attack, you msg the team, "hey we're under attack". Now everyone knows.
That brings me to my second point. Many of the ideas and theories in this thread are dependent on PVP format. As the rules differ, some strategies may be more or less viable. Things like respawning, win conditions, etc. change everything. Setting a standard for consideration would save many people from pointless criticisms or protracted arguments. I just feel that the OP is too general about this.
I also think that the tactical part of the OP is too neglected and this thread is turning into a trap collection. It has been a while since i last read the Art of War, and I think that it should be the primary inspiration.
*whew*
I agree with this.
To the OP: I believe your FIRST priority should be to actually read "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu (if you haven't already.) It's available online and it's a relatively short book. You could finish it in 1 day, easily. Keep in mind, some translations differ so exact quotes are sometimes more or less poetic depending on the source material.
Some key concepts and some of my favorite quotes, which come to mind when reading this thread:
"I have heard that haste can be folly, but I have never seen delay that was wise." - Attacks should be well planned and swiftly executed with no hesitation.
Also, momentum is not mentioned so much in the light that you portray it in one of your recent posts. Momentum is the release of "potential energy" and the perpetuation of that energy. Like a boulder rolling downhill... You use the lay of the land and the state of the enemies army (and your own) to strike "Like a stone cast at an egg..." or "...A hawk snapping the back of it's prey." You attack critical points with rapidity and leave the enemy crippled for the following attacks. You should only have to deploy your "troops" one time, to ensure success, etc.
I've also noticed much of this thread consists of traps and discussions about siege warfare. The Art of War and Sun Tzu make it clear that Siege is the lowest form of warfare. The most "successful" campaign is one where fighting never takes place. You gain victory before battle begins by convincing your enemy to surrender without ever attacking.
Also, you must consider the REASON for combat in any situation, including Minecraft: RESOURCES.
Why destroy a base when you could take it in-tact?
Why kill/frag enemy combatents, when you could simply convert them to your cause or force them to surrender without fighting in the first place?
Why ship supplies from "home" when you can forage off the enemy? (This is also a key to the momentum real, above.)
The object of combat is to procure the greatest amount of resources (land, people, or resources themselves), with the least amount of effort. This is why Espionage is the "highest" form of warfare.
Also, as far as I have seen you do not mention much about the lay-of-the-land.. The "types of ground". You discuss methods of transportation (underground, above ground, etc)... But the "types of ground" are more... 'abstract?' concepts than this? Each "type" of ground should be approached with a different tactical mindset... There are certain "do's" and "do nots"..
For example: If your enemy is crossing a bridge or a river or a body of water... You do not attack BEFORE they land (cross), and you do not attack AFTER they have all landed (crossed).. The trick is to attack once the army is committed to the crossing/landing, but NOT once they are SO committed that they cannot turn back. The object is to make half of their army useless, while you overwhelm the other half of their army... obviously this all depends on your #'s compared to theirs... But you DO NOT want to back them into a corner where they have no option but to defend a hardened position with their entire force.
Anyway.. I like the "idea" of the thread but I think it needs a lot of work to really reflect the spirit in which The Art of War was written.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Spark becomes a flame.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
But more importantly, I didn't really mean the actual items, I meant the base itself. If you have a mob farm break it apart. If you have a watchtower knock it down. The enemy doesn't deserve your tree farm. Use water to automatically harvest your crop farm, and run with all the wheat. Kill the pigs, slaughter the lambs, burn the cows, and destroy the chickens. The less an enemy gets the better.
Also I suggest destroying the mob farm last if its a dark mob farm. Just as a little surprise for the enemy.
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Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
I don't understand the scorched Earth idea, or momentum. You realize we can hide our bases in minecraft, right? Even if you don't believe what I said earlier about not having bases at all, clearly if you did have them, they would be underground/hidden.
So... if you find an enemy base, okay. There's a battle maybe, somebody wins. But how would you know where their next base is quickly enough to maintain momentum??? You have to go searching for it, maybe for hours. Momentum dies.
And on the other side of things, under what circumstances would you ever actually scorch your earth? If the enemy is in your base already, it's too late, pretty much. And if the enemy is "somewhere out there, waging war," but HASN'T discovered your base yet, then scorching the earth is stupid. You're just killing yourself for no reason, because they might not ever find you. So... when is it appropriate to do, then?
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Przerwap, upon looking at some code I had just written: "...Gav... That's not how programming works."
I don't understand the scorched Earth idea, or momentum. You realize we can hide our bases in minecraft, right? Even if you don't believe what I said earlier about not having bases at all, clearly if you did have them, they would be underground/hidden.
So... if you find an enemy base, okay. There's a battle maybe, somebody wins. But how would you know where their next base is quickly enough to maintain momentum??? You have to go searching for it, maybe for hours. Momentum dies.
And on the other side of things, under what circumstances would you ever actually scorch your earth? If the enemy is in your base already, it's too late, pretty much. And if the enemy is "somewhere out there, waging war," but HASN'T discovered your base yet, then scorching the earth is stupid. You're just killing yourself for no reason, because they might not ever find you. So... when is it appropriate to do, then?
I have to agree with this. The major use of the momentum theory is a raid, designed to quickly kill and loot a lot of cities (typically ones not prepared for conflict anyways) and potentially, if you are able to, capture the final city. For a more wartime like use of this, you instead do the same, but leave a few soldiers in each captured city.
Simple. If they're hidden, then you'll have to be a little more alert.
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Warriors of Chaos!!!
Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle - So many ways to die, so few times to do so.
@joxon
The commando's advantage would be that he/she is hidden so the enemy doesn't know they're there while doing their job, which would most likely be sabotage & theft since killing people would have very little real benefit because of respawning. However, staying hidden may be nearly impossible too, I don't know...ie, I do try to be as stealthy as possible in most (FPS) games, but more often than not, you will be easy to find regardless. Think it's just due to the nature of games and true stealth...staying hidden generally requires you to be far more...agile?...than you could ever be with WASD and crouch lol...not to mention the big name floating over your head that screams "here I am!". That being said, you also can't dig/stack blocks/etc. to get wherever you want in most other games, and that would likely be a key element to a "Minecraft commando" getting around without being seen...assuming it wouldn't make too much noise. I haven't played online at all yet, so I don't know if you even can hear someone else digging or placing blocks...
If it does end up being too difficult to be stealthy for it to be practical, a saboteur squad would still be very interesting...hit-and-run raids on mines, bases, etc. to basically steal what they can, destroy what they can't, and maybe even leave some traps behind while they're at it. They would have to be fast, but not nearly as sneaky as a commando since not working alone would mean they'd have the firepower to take out at least a few people who try to stop them. They could also carry more supplies than one person, so they could *potentially* do more damage.
P.S.
Yay! My first post in this epic thread :biggrin.gif: lol
Ho, in the Future, Notch plans to make freezing cold damage unprepared players garbed in something like cold iron in the future, so weather might play an important role in battle yet. Until then however,it's best that one plans for current circumstances for once HP becomes multiplayer-server wide, as I can guarantee you, reloading fishing poles and similar curiosities will not be forever!
Wearing iron in cold weather would not make you colder... It would in fact make you warmer than if you had on the exact same clothing minus the armor plating.
Because A) the armor would give some amount of insulation and wind protection and :cool.gif: metal is not actually colder than anything else in an environment. It just transfers heat more quickly. Which makes it cold to the touch at first (your fingers sense RATE of heat transfer, not temperature), but it would proportionally warm up much more quickly, too, compared to, say, leather armor.
It could cause frostbite due to the extreme speed of heat transfer, but that would only be if your armor was for some reason not touching your body for a long period of time, and then suddenly in full contact all at once. And frostbite would not really reduce your fighting efficiency during the timeline of a battle anyway.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Przerwap, upon looking at some code I had just written: "...Gav... That's not how programming works."
Wearing iron in cold weather would not make you colder... It would in fact make you warmer than if you had on the exact same clothing minus the armor plating.
Because A) the armor would give some amount of insulation and wind protection and :cool.gif: metal is not actually colder than anything else in an environment. It just transfers heat more quickly.
I could be wrong, but for insulation against cold, don't you want something that transfers heat slowly? I think iron would quickly absorb your body heat, and then quickly lose it to the cold air, making you colder. Leather transfers heat more slowly, so it doesn't absorb your body heat as quickly and not as much is lost to the cold air, keeping you warmer. Something like that, anyways...I think...
Anyways, what joxon said in their post about sabotage got me thinking a bit. Destroying ladders in particular sounded interesting. Would greatly slow them down, especially if it's their main method of entering/exiting or just reaching different areas within the mine, cost them a fairly significant amount of resources to replace at almost 1 log per ladder, and you would gain resources in the process. And if they have a particularly large ladder, you could destroy all but a few pieces closer to the top, so they might try to go down to start mining and fall to their death.
I don't know how practical using lava for sabotage outside of a battle would be. It's a valuable resource and ultimately, it wouldn't destroy much other than wood (which you could just use flint and steel for) unless someone actually dies in it, and it's pretty easily dealt with when it's not part of some elaborate trap or people aren't trying to kill you. It might slow them down a bit, but in the end, you would basically be handing them lava they could gather with their own buckets. Water, on the other hand, moves much faster, covers a larger area, provides no light so mobs can spawn after you steal all their torches, and is practically free. They would effectively gain nothing from it because if they needed water, they could have walked 10 seconds to either get it from the ocean, a lake, a pond, or their own infinite spring.
Kinda got a start on my next subject when I talked about water: stealing torches. Haven't seen anything about it mentioned yet (maybe because it's so obvious it didn't need to be), but stealing all their torches while you're sabotaging their mines would be extremely annoying! They would have to replace all the torches, costing coal and wood (granted, not hard to get, but still something), and you would gain those torches for your own use. Possibly more importantly, mobs would start spawning in their mines again, so they would have to clear them out as well, likely losing resources (food, at the least) in the process, and possibly being killed as well. Creeper explosions could be particularly costly. The best part is: the larger their mine, the more effective stealing all the torches would be because they would have to replace more and deal with more mobs, and you would gain more from it.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that stealing all the torches in their cave, leaving it extremely dark (obviously), would also make it harder for them to spot any traps you've left behind for them >:smile.gif:
@Joe
Shooting people from within reeds huh? Interesting.
@Everyone
It's settled then... Momentum theory and Scorched Earth tactics are out the window... that was pretty much a given.
@Everyone [again]
I'm probably going to do a major revamp of the entire OP [wording/theoretically wise] later tonight. The purpose of the thread will be more clearly stated, maybe.
@http404error
I haven't mentioned anything about high ground explicitly yet.
@Namkob
Yes, this thread will always and forever be in a state of tentative existence. Rules will change, the game will change. Using glitches like the replicating fishing pole in tactics is unviable in my eyes, anyway, and I won't include things like that in my OP.
@Everyone [again again]
That said... there ARE threads that state very plainly, and with sources, some things that Notch plans for the future... should we be checking out these threads [they're almost as long as this one] and farming them for tactic ideas? At least we would have some fact to base them off of... The only problem is I don't want a huge influx of crazy suggestions like... OH D00d w3 w1!ll have th3 ability to r!d3 B3@RZ. BE@|2 CALVARY FTW.
@EtherImp
I'll check out the Art of War... if I think I can finish it today before I do a total OP revamp, I will. If not, I'll read it some other time, and revamp the OP again.
I agree that the thread is becoming slightly trap heavy, but perhaps after today that will change.
I'll hopefully be able to work on everything in your post after understanding the what the true Art of War says.
@Spehss Mahreen
Tactics like the Momentum theory work great in Dawn of War, but not so much in Minecraft.
@Joxon
I'll be revamping everything in the OP, hopefully afterwards the jobs section will be to your liking, Commando is most likely getting removed.
Also... TNT is always worth the cost. You can't make anything else out of gunpowder, and sand is pretty common.
@Starsky
Commandos were the inverse of spies. They uses sabotage tactics while not fearing discovery... it was a dumb idea that I consented on and molded into an even worse one.
What you're thinking of is more like a stealthy spy, which is by far the most viable job in Minecraft at the moment, besides people that build...
Ah, I see. Forgot that you already defined what the commando would be in the OP lol. Yeah, definitely not realistic to expect people to basically be a super soldier haha. You're right, what I was talking about was the spy. When I saw "commando", I was thinking of a more realistic stealthy special forces-style commando...guess I need to watch more old action movies :smile.gif:
Edit so this post actually contributes something:
I'm skeptical of the practicality of people being dedicated guards. Mainly on the grounds that this is still a game, and guard duty would generally be pretty boring unless someone is attacking. People won't want to log in just to stand on top of a tower, walk a patrol path, or follow some dirty, sweaty miners all day. Besides, most (if not all) people would at least have a sword to protect themselves with. A group of armed miners wouldn't really need some guards following them.
I think it would be much more realistic to have people assigned to being scouts instead. They could watch the enemy from a distance and warn you when they are getting ready to attack before they've even left their base. Unlike guards, who wouldn't know it until they were much closer. Scouts could also assist spies, since they would likely be able see things from outside their fort that a spy couldn't while he's inside. A scout could also harass enemy forces by doing things like shooting at an attack force with their bow from up on a cliff while they pass through a valley below (or dropping TNT on them) and settings traps for lumberjacks/attack forces/patrols (if there are any). I guess you could say that the scout would be extremely similar to the spy, with the key difference being that a spy works inside enemy bases, while a scout works outside of them.
Of course, guards definitely have their place and are an important role, but it may be difficult to find people willing to be dedicated guards unless there is a lot of action.
P.S.
Totally more excited about SMP PvP now....I wanna be a scout/spy lol, this is sounding hella fun :smile.gif:
I'm going to have to say that the Father Winter defense is definitely not going to work out in Minecraft...
Destroying your own sources of resources... why not just pick up your chests and go... instead of destroying everything.
I mean, In real war... the russians couldn't carry their farms and buildings and large amount of resources along with them as they retreated... that's why they destroyed it all, but in Minecraft you can carry mountains in your pocket.
Also @Joe
I agree with you.
I figured I'd show Spehss Mahreen what his idea looked like, and hoped he would realize it isn't truly viable in Minecraft based off of the many weaknesses it harbors.
It was a good attempt at defining a strategy, however.
However I've restructured my TODO list with priority rankings:
Things to work on:
# = Low Priority
* = High priority
* Hidden Underground storage / bases + Smurf's coding idea + Dead Drops by Joe
* Different Building Types [Barracks... Storage... Etc]
* Ranks?
Evacuation and Retreat systems...
Breach & Clear? Sky Rappeling?
Alert lights / Security alert systems
Power of slowsand on Ice?
Floors in front of bases being made out of sand or gravel to show where enemies are burrowing?
# Viability of Monster Dungeons?
# Joe + His dock? [only low priority because I'm not working on it myself, meaning I don't have to do anything for it except wait]
# The Nether + Defense against Portal Seiges by Kromeh? [I already explained that the Nether will be taking lower priority at the moment]
# Snowballs as a distracting agent. [This is really low priority right now XD]
# Minecart decapitation Sabotage - Alinim? [I kind of don't like that it uses glitches of getting people's head stuck in blocks... I don't know.
# Aninimouse People Cannon? - Very impractical... but if he can build a small one that is compact and works for jumping over walls too dangerous to break I guess it could have some use!
I think I'm done for tonight guys. Talk to you in the morning unless I have any major mental breakthroughs!
Fair enough.
The major reason why I would burn is because I'm a raider, and as a raider, I don't wish to gain land so much as gain loot. The more the merrier.
Warriors of Chaos!!!
Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle - So many ways to die, so few times to do so.
It's not fabian strategy, it's scorched earth tactics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=74568&start=210
That brings me to my second point. Many of the ideas and theories in this thread are dependent on PVP format. As the rules differ, some strategies may be more or less viable. Things like respawning, win conditions, etc. change everything. Setting a standard for consideration would save many people from pointless criticisms or protracted arguments. I just feel that the OP is too general about this.
I also think that the tactical part of the OP is too neglected and this thread is turning into a trap collection. It has been a while since i last read the Art of War, and I think that it should be the primary inspiration.
*whew*
Have you mentioned the combat advantage of altitude? Even melee fighters benefit from elevation.
I agree with this.
To the OP: I believe your FIRST priority should be to actually read "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu (if you haven't already.) It's available online and it's a relatively short book. You could finish it in 1 day, easily. Keep in mind, some translations differ so exact quotes are sometimes more or less poetic depending on the source material.
Some key concepts and some of my favorite quotes, which come to mind when reading this thread:
"I have heard that haste can be folly, but I have never seen delay that was wise." - Attacks should be well planned and swiftly executed with no hesitation.
Also, momentum is not mentioned so much in the light that you portray it in one of your recent posts. Momentum is the release of "potential energy" and the perpetuation of that energy. Like a boulder rolling downhill... You use the lay of the land and the state of the enemies army (and your own) to strike "Like a stone cast at an egg..." or "...A hawk snapping the back of it's prey." You attack critical points with rapidity and leave the enemy crippled for the following attacks. You should only have to deploy your "troops" one time, to ensure success, etc.
I've also noticed much of this thread consists of traps and discussions about siege warfare. The Art of War and Sun Tzu make it clear that Siege is the lowest form of warfare. The most "successful" campaign is one where fighting never takes place. You gain victory before battle begins by convincing your enemy to surrender without ever attacking.
Also, you must consider the REASON for combat in any situation, including Minecraft: RESOURCES.
Why destroy a base when you could take it in-tact?
Why kill/frag enemy combatents, when you could simply convert them to your cause or force them to surrender without fighting in the first place?
Why ship supplies from "home" when you can forage off the enemy? (This is also a key to the momentum real, above.)
The object of combat is to procure the greatest amount of resources (land, people, or resources themselves), with the least amount of effort. This is why Espionage is the "highest" form of warfare.
Also, as far as I have seen you do not mention much about the lay-of-the-land.. The "types of ground". You discuss methods of transportation (underground, above ground, etc)... But the "types of ground" are more... 'abstract?' concepts than this? Each "type" of ground should be approached with a different tactical mindset... There are certain "do's" and "do nots"..
For example: If your enemy is crossing a bridge or a river or a body of water... You do not attack BEFORE they land (cross), and you do not attack AFTER they have all landed (crossed).. The trick is to attack once the army is committed to the crossing/landing, but NOT once they are SO committed that they cannot turn back. The object is to make half of their army useless, while you overwhelm the other half of their army... obviously this all depends on your #'s compared to theirs... But you DO NOT want to back them into a corner where they have no option but to defend a hardened position with their entire force.
Anyway.. I like the "idea" of the thread but I think it needs a lot of work to really reflect the spirit in which The Art of War was written.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
But more importantly, I didn't really mean the actual items, I meant the base itself. If you have a mob farm break it apart. If you have a watchtower knock it down. The enemy doesn't deserve your tree farm. Use water to automatically harvest your crop farm, and run with all the wheat. Kill the pigs, slaughter the lambs, burn the cows, and destroy the chickens. The less an enemy gets the better.
Also I suggest destroying the mob farm last if its a dark mob farm. Just as a little surprise for the enemy.
So... if you find an enemy base, okay. There's a battle maybe, somebody wins. But how would you know where their next base is quickly enough to maintain momentum??? You have to go searching for it, maybe for hours. Momentum dies.
And on the other side of things, under what circumstances would you ever actually scorch your earth? If the enemy is in your base already, it's too late, pretty much. And if the enemy is "somewhere out there, waging war," but HASN'T discovered your base yet, then scorching the earth is stupid. You're just killing yourself for no reason, because they might not ever find you. So... when is it appropriate to do, then?
I have to agree with this. The major use of the momentum theory is a raid, designed to quickly kill and loot a lot of cities (typically ones not prepared for conflict anyways) and potentially, if you are able to, capture the final city. For a more wartime like use of this, you instead do the same, but leave a few soldiers in each captured city.
Simple. If they're hidden, then you'll have to be a little more alert.
Warriors of Chaos!!!
Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle - So many ways to die, so few times to do so.
The commando's advantage would be that he/she is hidden so the enemy doesn't know they're there while doing their job, which would most likely be sabotage & theft since killing people would have very little real benefit because of respawning. However, staying hidden may be nearly impossible too, I don't know...ie, I do try to be as stealthy as possible in most (FPS) games, but more often than not, you will be easy to find regardless. Think it's just due to the nature of games and true stealth...staying hidden generally requires you to be far more...agile?...than you could ever be with WASD and crouch lol...not to mention the big name floating over your head that screams "here I am!". That being said, you also can't dig/stack blocks/etc. to get wherever you want in most other games, and that would likely be a key element to a "Minecraft commando" getting around without being seen...assuming it wouldn't make too much noise. I haven't played online at all yet, so I don't know if you even can hear someone else digging or placing blocks...
If it does end up being too difficult to be stealthy for it to be practical, a saboteur squad would still be very interesting...hit-and-run raids on mines, bases, etc. to basically steal what they can, destroy what they can't, and maybe even leave some traps behind while they're at it. They would have to be fast, but not nearly as sneaky as a commando since not working alone would mean they'd have the firepower to take out at least a few people who try to stop them. They could also carry more supplies than one person, so they could *potentially* do more damage.
P.S.
Yay! My first post in this epic thread :biggrin.gif: lol
Wearing iron in cold weather would not make you colder... It would in fact make you warmer than if you had on the exact same clothing minus the armor plating.
Because A) the armor would give some amount of insulation and wind protection and :cool.gif: metal is not actually colder than anything else in an environment. It just transfers heat more quickly. Which makes it cold to the touch at first (your fingers sense RATE of heat transfer, not temperature), but it would proportionally warm up much more quickly, too, compared to, say, leather armor.
It could cause frostbite due to the extreme speed of heat transfer, but that would only be if your armor was for some reason not touching your body for a long period of time, and then suddenly in full contact all at once. And frostbite would not really reduce your fighting efficiency during the timeline of a battle anyway.
I could be wrong, but for insulation against cold, don't you want something that transfers heat slowly? I think iron would quickly absorb your body heat, and then quickly lose it to the cold air, making you colder. Leather transfers heat more slowly, so it doesn't absorb your body heat as quickly and not as much is lost to the cold air, keeping you warmer. Something like that, anyways...I think...
Anyways, what joxon said in their post about sabotage got me thinking a bit. Destroying ladders in particular sounded interesting. Would greatly slow them down, especially if it's their main method of entering/exiting or just reaching different areas within the mine, cost them a fairly significant amount of resources to replace at almost 1 log per ladder, and you would gain resources in the process. And if they have a particularly large ladder, you could destroy all but a few pieces closer to the top, so they might try to go down to start mining and fall to their death.
I don't know how practical using lava for sabotage outside of a battle would be. It's a valuable resource and ultimately, it wouldn't destroy much other than wood (which you could just use flint and steel for) unless someone actually dies in it, and it's pretty easily dealt with when it's not part of some elaborate trap or people aren't trying to kill you. It might slow them down a bit, but in the end, you would basically be handing them lava they could gather with their own buckets. Water, on the other hand, moves much faster, covers a larger area, provides no light so mobs can spawn after you steal all their torches, and is practically free. They would effectively gain nothing from it because if they needed water, they could have walked 10 seconds to either get it from the ocean, a lake, a pond, or their own infinite spring.
Kinda got a start on my next subject when I talked about water: stealing torches. Haven't seen anything about it mentioned yet (maybe because it's so obvious it didn't need to be), but stealing all their torches while you're sabotaging their mines would be extremely annoying! They would have to replace all the torches, costing coal and wood (granted, not hard to get, but still something), and you would gain those torches for your own use. Possibly more importantly, mobs would start spawning in their mines again, so they would have to clear them out as well, likely losing resources (food, at the least) in the process, and possibly being killed as well. Creeper explosions could be particularly costly. The best part is: the larger their mine, the more effective stealing all the torches would be because they would have to replace more and deal with more mobs, and you would gain more from it.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that stealing all the torches in their cave, leaving it extremely dark (obviously), would also make it harder for them to spot any traps you've left behind for them >:smile.gif:
Lava is one of the most common resourses... In Nether.
Hmm...touché...still think water would be more practical though :tongue.gif:
Shooting people from within reeds huh? Interesting.
@Everyone
It's settled then... Momentum theory and Scorched Earth tactics are out the window... that was pretty much a given.
@Everyone [again]
I'm probably going to do a major revamp of the entire OP [wording/theoretically wise] later tonight. The purpose of the thread will be more clearly stated, maybe.
@http404error
I haven't mentioned anything about high ground explicitly yet.
@Namkob
Yes, this thread will always and forever be in a state of tentative existence. Rules will change, the game will change. Using glitches like the replicating fishing pole in tactics is unviable in my eyes, anyway, and I won't include things like that in my OP.
@Everyone [again again]
That said... there ARE threads that state very plainly, and with sources, some things that Notch plans for the future... should we be checking out these threads [they're almost as long as this one] and farming them for tactic ideas? At least we would have some fact to base them off of... The only problem is I don't want a huge influx of crazy suggestions like... OH D00d w3 w1!ll have th3 ability to r!d3 B3@RZ. BE@|2 CALVARY FTW.
@EtherImp
I'll check out the Art of War... if I think I can finish it today before I do a total OP revamp, I will. If not, I'll read it some other time, and revamp the OP again.
I agree that the thread is becoming slightly trap heavy, but perhaps after today that will change.
I'll hopefully be able to work on everything in your post after understanding the what the true Art of War says.
@Spehss Mahreen
Tactics like the Momentum theory work great in Dawn of War, but not so much in Minecraft.
@Joxon
I'll be revamping everything in the OP, hopefully afterwards the jobs section will be to your liking, Commando is most likely getting removed.
Also... TNT is always worth the cost. You can't make anything else out of gunpowder, and sand is pretty common.
@Starsky
Commandos were the inverse of spies. They uses sabotage tactics while not fearing discovery... it was a dumb idea that I consented on and molded into an even worse one.
What you're thinking of is more like a stealthy spy, which is by far the most viable job in Minecraft at the moment, besides people that build...
#DiEvAl
Your name is telling me to die. D:
Edit so this post actually contributes something:
I'm skeptical of the practicality of people being dedicated guards. Mainly on the grounds that this is still a game, and guard duty would generally be pretty boring unless someone is attacking. People won't want to log in just to stand on top of a tower, walk a patrol path, or follow some dirty, sweaty miners all day. Besides, most (if not all) people would at least have a sword to protect themselves with. A group of armed miners wouldn't really need some guards following them.
I think it would be much more realistic to have people assigned to being scouts instead. They could watch the enemy from a distance and warn you when they are getting ready to attack before they've even left their base. Unlike guards, who wouldn't know it until they were much closer. Scouts could also assist spies, since they would likely be able see things from outside their fort that a spy couldn't while he's inside. A scout could also harass enemy forces by doing things like shooting at an attack force with their bow from up on a cliff while they pass through a valley below (or dropping TNT on them) and settings traps for lumberjacks/attack forces/patrols (if there are any). I guess you could say that the scout would be extremely similar to the spy, with the key difference being that a spy works inside enemy bases, while a scout works outside of them.
Of course, guards definitely have their place and are an important role, but it may be difficult to find people willing to be dedicated guards unless there is a lot of action.
P.S.
Totally more excited about SMP PvP now....I wanna be a scout/spy lol, this is sounding hella fun :smile.gif: