@swfan333 - No problem, I realize the length is offputting. But there ARE a lot of pictures...
@MasterCrenox - The original draft only took me around a few hours, but the proceeding updates took longer because of the huge amount of pictures I had to deal with.
@lavalamp945 - Exactly XD
@Sheph1220 - Keep on the lookout for upcoming war servers. Project: Art of War hosted by RagingMonocle is based on this thread, but is far from its glory days at the moment...
@Xheia - I completely understand that the length is something that might put off a majority of users, but I tried to counterbalance this by separating the largely text based theoretical section from the largely picture based practical section. I believe the practical section is much more accesible and understandable. In terms of a summary... I think the actual "Art of War" by Sun Tzu is shorter at this point... XD
@Zero_X4 - Good luck :smile.gif:
@Melvarius - Indeed! Though it shouldn't be too hard to find this thread, since it's a sticky XD.
@Everyone: Have a great idea? Take screenshots. Make a video. Write up a DETAILED and LITERATE description, and submit it to me either on this thread, or by PM. I'll include it in the OP and credit you completely if I like your idea. If I modify any aspect of it, I will denote which parts I modify.
@ Valerius the thing is that even your "Practical" warfare section contains Un-Tested Sensationalistic BS. For example you mention "Air troops" which is odd considiring there are no flying machines or any other practical way to move through the air. Now some of the tactics are just plain wrong or Un-Doable in a war scenario for example your "One way doorway" no longer works and i haven't seen any intention from you to update it. Some of the techinques as methods listed above SEEM plausible but there is no way of knowing if they would actually work, considiring that you don't test any of your methods not even the "Practical" ones.
You're kidding, right?
The air thing (I assume) means making a large bridge over to their base. Also, he has a picture for every idea, so he has to test them to get pictures.
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Quote from Xaiier »
Its a magical physics defying object that takes 8 cubic meters of gold and jams it into an apple.
@ Valerius the thing is that even your "Practical" warfare section contains Un-Tested Sensationalistic BS. For example you mention "Air troops" which is odd considiring there are no flying machines or any other practical way to move through the air. Now some of the tactics are just plain wrong or Un-Doable in a war scenario for example your "One way doorway" no longer works and i haven't seen any intention from you to update it. Some of the techinques as methods listed above SEEM plausible but there is no way of knowing if they would actually work, considiring that you don't test any of your methods not even the "Practical" ones.
Says the boy who got kicked for being an immature little *******.
He hasn't updated it because we at ONA are making more and more tactics.
Unlike you, who is still trying to learn how to spell.
In other words, contribute, or solve your swan song elsewhere.
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Warriors of Chaos!!!
Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle - So many ways to die, so few times to do so.
@ Valerius the thing is that even your "Practical" warfare section contains Un-Tested Sensationalistic BS. For example you mention "Air troops" which is odd considiring there are no flying machines or any other practical way to move through the air. Now some of the tactics are just plain wrong or Un-Doable in a war scenario for example your "One way doorway" no longer works and i haven't seen any intention from you to update it. Some of the techinques as methods listed above SEEM plausible but there is no way of knowing if they would actually work, considiring that you don't test any of your methods not even the "Practical" ones.
Don't just come in here and flame the idea... EVERYTHING in the Practical warfare section is tested. Hence why I have pictures of just about every idea...
Air troops are quite possible, since in minecraft, you do not NEED a flying machine to get rather high up into the air. That said, The Air troops section is incomplete, and will be updated if/when Minecraft gets some sort of flying machine. It's mostly there as a placeholder now, and it even says that in the section. One way doors still work, I justtested it because you said they didn't... so I don't know what you're blabbering about. Please test YOUR sensationalistic BS before spreading it. My intentions are to update the thread as often as possible, while still keeping it in the realm of interest for myself. I'm sorry if you don't agree with the thread, Joe... but at this point, reading it and commenting it is your own choice. You don't even have to. Basically, if you don't like my ideas, or the ideas of a contributor, suggest betters ones.
The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
Join Date:
12/30/2010
Posts:
43
Member Details
My concept for an awesome trap/"item feeder"
this should be placed right before a chest with valuble items. Note that this should also be in a narrow halway, with the chest at the end.
LEGEND:
half block=wooden pressure plate
blank white block=empty space
workbench=chest
[]
[]
[]
[]
what will happen: some filthy gamer has found your items! He thinks he's pretty awesome at this point, and beglects to notice a pressure plate directly infront of the chest. For reasons unkown to me, the physics in this game say that when you step on a pressure plate, ontop of sand, ontp of tnt, it will destroy the sand, and set off the tnt. Therefore, when the enemy steps on your pressure plate, he will fall down the hole you have dug out. He, as well as the tnt, will land in the water. When the tnt blows up, It won't break surrounding terrain, but it WILL kill him. I also have an idea to put water currents in the water at the bottom leading to a predetermined location, taking all his items as well. The only downfall to this trap However, is that you need to reload it. You could also make circutry leading to the blocks, turning on a redstone torch when the tnt has been destroyed. Just an idea.
In communications, you COULD add some form of morse code between bases
EXAMPLE =Note block = Redstone buttons or something
This way, you could probably relay messages so that only people in the bases could hear. But if the bases are too far away then you could just use repeater blocks? I heard it can make redstone wires longer.
I just have a question based on the TNT arrow traps
On one server i was on, i built dozens of those traps with a bunch of other people. However, although we regularly stood within the area the arrows should have saturated with fire, none of us ever got hit by arrows from a trap set by someone else.
Is this just a fluke, or do those traps just not work against other people?
I think so. However, this was before repeater OR note blocks were released. One thing that makes this sort of pointless is that instead of using the chat on the server (viewable by all players, including enemies etc) you could simply phone a person in real life, use talking software (how people do it in WoW) use chatrooms, etc. Really not much point in doing a mechanism for talking. Considering this is a videogame...
...nonetheless, interesting idea.
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Quote from Eternalist »
Quote from ZenZombie »
Oh, I get it, like the spoungebob episode that had the box.
Quite a long read, so I am viewing it in sections, but so far this has been a brilliant thread. Also adding some mention of 360-degree TNT cannons would be an idea. I know there is a good video on youtube about them, I do not have a link on me, but that kind of cannon is highly effective, I built a crude one earlier today and managed to take out a herd of ten cows situated on a distant hill. It cost me five TNT to kill them, but it astounded me at how accurate that kind of cannon can be. I am no expert with them so the shot relied on a mixture of estimation and luck, but I imagine a skilled cannoneer would have no trouble pulling off skilled shots such as that on a regular basis. It would make an effective defense against hostile mobs and in the case of a PvP server; enemy players.
And as for a reason to fight the other players, will how about for the fun of it?
Of course if you are on an RP server I am imagining you may want a decent reason, but look back into history and you will find plenty of reason for war. Even very stupid ones which make you wonder how exactly a war started because of them.
That trap would work on a very un-attentive player. But probably not against someone whom has read "The Art of War" XD. I would notice a pressure plate on the floor, personally.
However, in terms of game-mechanics, it would work very nicely.
@Melvarius
I love the idea, and it would be perfect if, as Cookiepuss alluded to, out of game chat wasn't possible. I included some communications ideas before actually ever playing in a clan... but onces I started, I realized that we barely ever talked in game. We spoke exclusively in out of game voice chat or on IRC. It seems to work out better since it is more secretive anyway. Regardless, the use of noteblocks as some sort of notifier actually seems plausible. Have a little alarm go off if one of your un-attended bases is being destroyed. Noteblocks would be good as sort of sentries for un-manned bases.
@DataNalle
Thoroughness is fun. XD
@Zhyrek
I'm not sure I understand your question, are you saying that if you build an arrow trap, you can hit yourself with it, but not others? I'll try and test some tnt arrow traps soon.
@SgtHydra
Thanks :tongue.gif:
@CaveHybrid
More often than not, war at the moment will be fought for fun rather than some sort of objective. Capturing enemy land and/or resources could also be an option, to prove your army's superiority.
@Scottyman46
I appreciate the value that you see :smile.gif:
@Drakonhammer
Thanks for the acknowledgement. Actually, I know Etho has a lot of good videos on cannons [some of which he even filmed in my clan's server], so I should probably give him a cameo in my thread :tongue.gif:.
In terms of cannon accuracy, it's actually very possibly to build a cannon that gives very predictable results for different load patterns. In fact, almost any cannon does so. So once you memorize a load pattern for a certain cannon, you can effectively hit targets at pre-determined distances.
@Deadroad
I'm glad you took the time to read it!
@Lowerthanlow
Thanks :smile.gif:
@Everyone:
New video! It will have annotations soon, and then I'll stick it in the OP
@Valerius I believe the arrows that get shot into a wall (or TNT) are client sided, which possibly could be so that you cant steal other peoples arrows
Have you ever seen an arrow stuck into a wall shot by someone else?
So, uh, where's the defensive section? From hiding your base under unusually labled "natural land" to digging ditches around to slow players slightly, to placing springs around randomly, to digging 1x1 tunnels downwards as an entrance and using the north-east (south-west?) rule to 'create doorways'.
Sure, it's good to know how to attack a base, but what about when you are not the one attacking? Wouldn't some help other than 'where to place the TNT in your base' be useful?
@Zhyrek
That makes sense, and is consistent with what I have seen, and if that is the case... it is unfortunate.
@Alfa
There is the whole "Recommended Defenses" section which has:
Positioning your castle
Building an Effective wall
Lava walls
Water Walls
Towers
Protecting Doorways
One way doors
NEW: The Cage
Sand Walling
"Purge System"
"Fake Hallways"
Hiding Structures
Your thread was a very interesting read, but I feel that it overlooks three key details. (Forgive me if these have been brought up already).
(1) War is expensive.
(2) Death is cheap
(3) Minecraftians have incredible destructive capabilities.
I'll address #1 first. #1: WAR IS EXPENSIVE When I say that war is expensive, I'm referring to all of the supplies and equipment needed to allow a soldier to fight effectively. These come in 4 categories:
-Swords. The basic melee weaponis the Sword, very cheap and effective. Stone swords can be manufactured en masse from easily obtained materials. Iron is a bit expensive for only a 33% boost in killing capacity, and diamond is even more expensive than that. I doubt that diamond or iron swords will be used unless your base comes with a starting supply of the materials.
-Armor. INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE. Armor, though wonderful in allowing you to survive otherwise lethal damage is far too expensive to even be worth considering. A full suit of leather armor requires the killing of 24 cows, though I suppose you could get by with just a breastplate. Still, the price seems quite high for an item whose utility gets quickly exhausted in combat. A suit of armor will let you win just a few duels before it has to be replaced at full price. Iron is too expensive to use, though does have superior durability. Diamond is right out.
-Bows Bows are a little expensive at first given the need to venture out to kill 2-3 spiders to make one, but once made they are a very valuable investment. Never wear-out and have the ability to inflict death from afar. Impunity is invaluable in warfare, and bows can dish out large amounts of damage within a short amount of time, do so outside of melee-range, and even halt enemies from closing range. They are the most powerful weapon in the game and will have a prominent place in warfare...except for their one major limitation: Ammunition.
-Arrows Arrows are very expensive. Not as expensive as iron equipment, but not exactly free. They require 3 components: Flint, Sticks, and Feathers. Flint, though slow to get, can be obtained within the safety of a base. Just take a stack of gravel and a shovel, place all the gravel out and dig it back up. You get around 10% conversion. It's not fast, but it's basicly risk-free. Sticks are very inexpensive. 2 Logs yield enough material for a full stack of arrows. Feathers however are the limiting factor. You get them from killing chickens or zombies. You have to expose yourself to danger, and it's quite time consuming since you have to do it with melee combat and you're just not going to be able to find enough of them when you want them. Feathers are cheaper than leather though, since they are dropped by two creatures, one of which has the courtesy to come to you rather than wandering randomly. Now, once you've mined and processed 160 units of gravel (to yield 16 flint), chopped and processed 2 logs, and killed 16 chickens/zombies, you have enough materials for 1 stack of arrows. How many people can you kill with 64 arrows? A fair amount. The more important question though is: How quickly will your arrow supply be depleted? How much time does it take to collect enough materials to replenish your stock? How much fighting are you missing while making ammunition?
-FoodThis will be the "most used resource". People need to eat food every time they are injured or they are vulnerable to death. People will go into battle with item-slots full of bread and roasted pork to stave off death long enough to deliver it instead to their foes. But where does food come from? How much will be eaten? What's the most cost-effective food available? I'm not certain of this, but I know that it's not cake. I think that a lot of time will have to be spent in the acquisition and production of food. Pork is the best food, but you have to actually go out and hunt it, which can be time-consuming. Bread can be made from wheat grown in the safety of your base, but it takes DAYS for the wheat to mature, can take up a lot of space, and farms are vulnerable to destruction. Fishing consumes spider-silk and so is in competition with bow-manufacturing, requires that you stand around with your attention on the water, but doesn't depend on the fickle spawning of pig herds. It's tough to say what the optimal food is. There is however one factor which will greatly reduce it's value: which brings me to Issue #2:
#2: DEATH IS CHEAP. Seriously, how much effort is it worth expending to kill a guy who's going to respawn at full health probably less than a kilometer away? Is it worth 5 arrows? Is it worth a TNT? Is it worth a few sword-swings? Ok, yes it's worth the sword-swings, but given how little consequence death has, there's no real other killing-method that's worthwhile. The only other costs of death is the loss of your inventory (but seriously, who's going to walk into battle with a pocket full of diamonds?) and the fact that you're prevented temporarily from achieving whatever your goal was. Furthermore, if you find yourself low on health, instead of consuming some of your valuable grilled pork, you might be better-off stashing your equipment somewhere and committing suicide. That is how utterly inconsequential death is. Warfare in Minecraft is going to involve a lot of repeated suicidal attacks on the enemy to damage their base. Which brings me to issue #3:
#3: DESTRUCTION IS EASY One word: Griefing. That's what warfare is all about. Nonstop team-griefing. All that carefully designed architecture? Smashed! Your carefully collected supplies? I was worried that I might get caught stealing, so I just set all your stuff on fire instead. All gone! Your impressive fortifications? I can practicly SWIM through stone. There is nothing you can build that is so impressive or mighty that it cannot be ruined with 1/10th of the effort. Walls will be useless. How long does it take to build a basic 3-high cobblestone wall enclosing a 32x32 area? A while, but not TOO long if you're an experienced builder. 5-10 minutes? How long does it take to bypass such a wall? Breaking a 2x1 hole to walk through will take all of 3 seconds. No tools? Collect some dirt with your bare hands hand make some steps or pillar your way up. Fortifications as we commonly think of them with walls and towers and moats and bunkers will all be essentially useless. Traps? Maybe someone might fall for them once, but they are expensive to build, and death is cheap. Also, if somebody has reason to believe that a doorway is trapped, what's to stop them from just demolishing it, smashing your pressure-plates, cutting your redstone wiring, and breaking the walls to reveal hidden mechanisms. Dispenser full of arrows? YAY!! FREE ARROWS!!!! TNT landmine? I think I'll set it off on purpose to see the explosion! Everything that you make can and will be destroyed.
Combined, these 3 factors lead me to make the following provocative statement: Warfare in minecraft will consist of nothing but naked people running at each other with stone swords.
While an amusing image, this will not be FUN, the ensuing chaotic click-fest will completely overshadow all the other portions of the game. There will be no constructions, no traps, no advanced resources, no expensive equipment, NOTHING. Everything is just too expensive, and death is too cheap.
This disturbing conclusion has lead me to ponder the following question: What things would have to be changed in order to make large-scale organized conflict in Minecraft FUN? I think I might start a thread about this, but I'd like to see if anybody else has any thoughts on the issue and if this has already been addressed in any way.
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Hans Lemurson's Thread of Links:http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/371610-hans-lemursons-thread-of-links/
Look here to find links to my inventions, creations, and my Youtube channel featuring Amazing Creations of Mine (Redstone engineering FTW!!!) and charming Music-Videos about clones. I also made "Minecraft in Minecraft" (2D platformer/building game). I'm currently trying to make a computer.
This disturbing conclusion has lead me to ponder the following question: What things would have to be changed in order to make large-scale organized conflict in Minecraft FUN? I think I might start a thread about this, but I'd like to see if anybody else has any thoughts on the issue and if this has already been addressed in any way.
I have three proposals to make war more "fun". The first is a short period of prep time prior to engaging in war. This gives each army the time to gather resources, but they must make a choice. Do they focus on mining and making better arms and armor, do they make wheat farms, or do they go out and hunt mobs? Each has its own unique benefits, so each army will make a decision. Their strategies will change, as will the style of warfare. A pre-war preparation period will make war much more than a speed-clicking brawl.
Secondly, death should come with consequence. The simplest way would be to put in an adminium jail at the spawn point so that players cannot continue to fight when they die, and the last one standing wins. Another, albeit more complicated option would be to make a server mod that tracks death and prevents killed players from interacting with the terrain. If players are rendered incapable of fighting when they die, they will consider death to be much more of a consequence.
My third suggestion is not really a suggestion, but rather a point to be made regarding your statement. Minecraftians do have destructive capabilities, but the point of most structures are not to stop, but rather delay. This is especially true in war scenarios that are along the lines of capture the flag. Yes, it may be easy to pillar above and over a wall, but if you do not carry around a stack of dirt you have to take that time to gather the dirt, place it, and then continue. And all the while, the other team is advancing on your flag on the other side of the map. And most walls probably wouldn't just be squares around an open area. A good base would be full of traps, tricks, and mazes to delay the enemy and hopefully get them lost or killed.
In conclusion, my responses in order to your statements:
(1) War is expensive. Add prep time. It makes it cheaper and adds flavor.
(2) Death is cheap. So make it of consequence by removing killed players from the fight.
(3) Minecraftians have incredible destructive capabilities. Make your bases more complex than a wall around a chest. Add mazes and other traps to hinder the progress of your enemy.
The two problems I am having with your post, Hans, are:
- I strongly believe the inverse of your first two points.
- I have played on many PvP servers, and none have turned out as you state.
#1. War is Cheap:
The resources required to wage a war in Minecraft are numerous and naturally occuring across the entire Minecraft world, and only require the investment of TIME to find. TIME is the most valuable resource in Minecraft because it opens the tech trees for all other skills. Mining, Crafting, Smelting, Building. Without the powerful TIME resource, you cannot act. If you have a large enough group, with enough TIME you can build a Mob Tower with an efficiency rate of around 5 stacks of gunpowder per hour [1 Stack of TNT assuming ample supply of sand]. You throw out the usefulness of Diamond because of their rarity... but if you create a branch mine in accordance to the thread- Elites of Minecraft: The Miners, you can find diamonds at an astounding rate assuming a group of people working together in a branch mine with a large enough time investment. My clan is always armed to the teeth with Diamond Swords and Armour, and stacks of TNT. Bows and Arrows too come from the Mob Tower in infinite supply. Nothing is expensive enough in Minecraft to warrant its disuse. Building an animal spawning room [full of grass] will spawn hundreds of animals a day allowing for the harvesting of eggs, feathers, leather and pork.
#2. Death is Expensive
It is worth and infinite amount of energy and time to kill an enemy in Minecraft whom is assaulting your property. Assuming you have been an intelligent group of people, and built your base quite far away from spawn, with the correct defenses and such, killing a player will send them 10+ Kilometers away. That is a large enough trek that it will dissuade said enemy from returning for long enough that you may prepare for a second wave. However... personally... if my base was ever compromised, we'd have to move out right away. If you're playing a game of king-of-the-hill or capture the flag, however, ground is valuable and shouldn't be abandoned, and it is quite expensive if you die, and lose your items, your position, and your ground. The person running at the base full of people in full diamond armour, equipped with nothing but a stone sword, unfortunately stands no chance of success.
I agree that destruction is easy. But this is what makes War in Minecraft a viable option for gameplay.
Warfare in Minecraft will consist of nothing but naked people running at eachother with stone swords.
It's simply not true. Every war server I have gone to is dominated by those [my own clan] who seek out ground far from spawn, establish a mob tower and branch mine, and gain a steady supply of war materials with which to destroy the opposing clans. You gain even more resources by taking them from defeated enemies, and if we go by what Sun Tzu states, the resources of our enemies are worth much more than if we had retrieved them ourselves, because it negates the time invesment of the enemy.
However! I still think you should create the thread "What things would have to be changed in order to make large-scale organized conflict in Miecraft FUN?" because it would start an interesting debate, and ultimately lead us to some better consensus.
I'm glad you took the time to respond in such a fashion, so thank you Hans. If I've overlooked something, feel free to call me out on it.
Edit: @Blagob
When a new war server begins, there is always a period of Prep time in which the first clans to join have free reign of where and how they want to construct your base. You snooze, you lose. People joining later might not have that luxury, but that is the same as RL. You must take opportunities when they arise, not when you want them. Preparing a base, even with people around you, is not difficult if you go far enough out.
The adminium jail is not something that I support for a few reasons. Firstly, it's not part of the vanilla game. Secondly, death is already a consequence enough, as it removes your items, removes your position, and removes you from your comrades. You are naked, and alone in spawn, and subject to those people who camp around spawn waiting for victims.
I agree that if you want to succeed you should make your base very difficult to intrude into. Hide secret entrances, and heavily trap obvious entrances so people die who attempt to enter. Hide your chests near the base, but NOT IN IT. That is the first thing people look for in a base, and if you leave them out in the open, you're only making it easier for them.
@swfan333 - No problem, I realize the length is offputting. But there ARE a lot of pictures...
@MasterCrenox - The original draft only took me around a few hours, but the proceeding updates took longer because of the huge amount of pictures I had to deal with.
@lavalamp945 - Exactly XD
@Sheph1220 - Keep on the lookout for upcoming war servers. Project: Art of War hosted by RagingMonocle is based on this thread, but is far from its glory days at the moment...
@Xheia - I completely understand that the length is something that might put off a majority of users, but I tried to counterbalance this by separating the largely text based theoretical section from the largely picture based practical section. I believe the practical section is much more accesible and understandable. In terms of a summary... I think the actual "Art of War" by Sun Tzu is shorter at this point... XD
@Zero_X4 - Good luck :smile.gif:
@Melvarius - Indeed! Though it shouldn't be too hard to find this thread, since it's a sticky XD.
@Everyone: Have a great idea? Take screenshots. Make a video. Write up a DETAILED and LITERATE description, and submit it to me either on this thread, or by PM. I'll include it in the OP and credit you completely if I like your idea. If I modify any aspect of it, I will denote which parts I modify.
You're kidding, right?
The air thing (I assume) means making a large bridge over to their base. Also, he has a picture for every idea, so he has to test them to get pictures.
-Xaiier on Golden Apples
Says the boy who got kicked for being an immature little *******.
He hasn't updated it because we at ONA are making more and more tactics.
Unlike you, who is still trying to learn how to spell.
In other words, contribute, or solve your swan song elsewhere.
Warriors of Chaos!!!
Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle - So many ways to die, so few times to do so.
Don't just come in here and flame the idea... EVERYTHING in the Practical warfare section is tested. Hence why I have pictures of just about every idea...
Air troops are quite possible, since in minecraft, you do not NEED a flying machine to get rather high up into the air. That said, The Air troops section is incomplete, and will be updated if/when Minecraft gets some sort of flying machine. It's mostly there as a placeholder now, and it even says that in the section. One way doors still work, I just tested it because you said they didn't... so I don't know what you're blabbering about. Please test YOUR sensationalistic BS before spreading it. My intentions are to update the thread as often as possible, while still keeping it in the realm of interest for myself. I'm sorry if you don't agree with the thread, Joe... but at this point, reading it and commenting it is your own choice. You don't even have to. Basically, if you don't like my ideas, or the ideas of a contributor, suggest betters ones.
this should be placed right before a chest with valuble items. Note that this should also be in a narrow halway, with the chest at the end.
LEGEND:
half block=wooden pressure plate
blank white block=empty space
workbench=chest
[]
[]
[]
[]
what will happen: some filthy gamer has found your items! He thinks he's pretty awesome at this point, and beglects to notice a pressure plate directly infront of the chest. For reasons unkown to me, the physics in this game say that when you step on a pressure plate, ontop of sand, ontp of tnt, it will destroy the sand, and set off the tnt. Therefore, when the enemy steps on your pressure plate, he will fall down the hole you have dug out. He, as well as the tnt, will land in the water. When the tnt blows up, It won't break surrounding terrain, but it WILL kill him. I also have an idea to put water currents in the water at the bottom leading to a predetermined location, taking all his items as well. The only downfall to this trap However, is that you need to reload it. You could also make circutry leading to the blocks, turning on a redstone torch when the tnt has been destroyed. Just an idea.
that's okay, the more people we know how to blow up, the better
EXAMPLE
This way, you could probably relay messages so that only people in the bases could hear. But if the bases are too far away then you could just use repeater blocks? I heard it can make redstone wires longer.
*EDIT*
Did someone already think of this?
On one server i was on, i built dozens of those traps with a bunch of other people. However, although we regularly stood within the area the arrows should have saturated with fire, none of us ever got hit by arrows from a trap set by someone else.
Is this just a fluke, or do those traps just not work against other people?
I think so. However, this was before repeater OR note blocks were released. One thing that makes this sort of pointless is that instead of using the chat on the server (viewable by all players, including enemies etc) you could simply phone a person in real life, use talking software (how people do it in WoW) use chatrooms, etc. Really not much point in doing a mechanism for talking. Considering this is a videogame...
...nonetheless, interesting idea.
And as for a reason to fight the other players, will how about for the fun of it?
Of course if you are on an RP server I am imagining you may want a decent reason, but look back into history and you will find plenty of reason for war. Even very stupid ones which make you wonder how exactly a war started because of them.
That trap would work on a very un-attentive player. But probably not against someone whom has read "The Art of War" XD. I would notice a pressure plate on the floor, personally.
However, in terms of game-mechanics, it would work very nicely.
@Melvarius
I love the idea, and it would be perfect if, as Cookiepuss alluded to, out of game chat wasn't possible. I included some communications ideas before actually ever playing in a clan... but onces I started, I realized that we barely ever talked in game. We spoke exclusively in out of game voice chat or on IRC. It seems to work out better since it is more secretive anyway. Regardless, the use of noteblocks as some sort of notifier actually seems plausible. Have a little alarm go off if one of your un-attended bases is being destroyed. Noteblocks would be good as sort of sentries for un-manned bases.
@DataNalle
Thoroughness is fun. XD
@Zhyrek
I'm not sure I understand your question, are you saying that if you build an arrow trap, you can hit yourself with it, but not others? I'll try and test some tnt arrow traps soon.
@SgtHydra
Thanks :tongue.gif:
@CaveHybrid
More often than not, war at the moment will be fought for fun rather than some sort of objective. Capturing enemy land and/or resources could also be an option, to prove your army's superiority.
@Scottyman46
I appreciate the value that you see :smile.gif:
@Drakonhammer
Thanks for the acknowledgement. Actually, I know Etho has a lot of good videos on cannons [some of which he even filmed in my clan's server], so I should probably give him a cameo in my thread :tongue.gif:.
In terms of cannon accuracy, it's actually very possibly to build a cannon that gives very predictable results for different load patterns. In fact, almost any cannon does so. So once you memorize a load pattern for a certain cannon, you can effectively hit targets at pre-determined distances.
@Deadroad
I'm glad you took the time to read it!
@Lowerthanlow
Thanks :smile.gif:
@Everyone:
New video! It will have annotations soon, and then I'll stick it in the OP
Have you ever seen an arrow stuck into a wall shot by someone else?
Sure, it's good to know how to attack a base, but what about when you are not the one attacking? Wouldn't some help other than 'where to place the TNT in your base' be useful?
Also, false boat elevators into lava.
That makes sense, and is consistent with what I have seen, and if that is the case... it is unfortunate.
@Alfa
There is the whole "Recommended Defenses" section which has:
Positioning your castle
Building an Effective wall
Lava walls
Water Walls
Towers
Protecting Doorways
One way doors
NEW: The Cage
Sand Walling
"Purge System"
"Fake Hallways"
Hiding Structures
I'm not sure if you noticed it
What does that mean?
(1) War is expensive.
(2) Death is cheap
(3) Minecraftians have incredible destructive capabilities.
I'll address #1 first.
#1: WAR IS EXPENSIVE When I say that war is expensive, I'm referring to all of the supplies and equipment needed to allow a soldier to fight effectively. These come in 4 categories:
-Swords. The basic melee weaponis the Sword, very cheap and effective. Stone swords can be manufactured en masse from easily obtained materials. Iron is a bit expensive for only a 33% boost in killing capacity, and diamond is even more expensive than that. I doubt that diamond or iron swords will be used unless your base comes with a starting supply of the materials.
-Armor. INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE. Armor, though wonderful in allowing you to survive otherwise lethal damage is far too expensive to even be worth considering. A full suit of leather armor requires the killing of 24 cows, though I suppose you could get by with just a breastplate. Still, the price seems quite high for an item whose utility gets quickly exhausted in combat. A suit of armor will let you win just a few duels before it has to be replaced at full price. Iron is too expensive to use, though does have superior durability. Diamond is right out.
-Bows Bows are a little expensive at first given the need to venture out to kill 2-3 spiders to make one, but once made they are a very valuable investment. Never wear-out and have the ability to inflict death from afar. Impunity is invaluable in warfare, and bows can dish out large amounts of damage within a short amount of time, do so outside of melee-range, and even halt enemies from closing range. They are the most powerful weapon in the game and will have a prominent place in warfare...except for their one major limitation: Ammunition.
-Arrows Arrows are very expensive. Not as expensive as iron equipment, but not exactly free. They require 3 components: Flint, Sticks, and Feathers. Flint, though slow to get, can be obtained within the safety of a base. Just take a stack of gravel and a shovel, place all the gravel out and dig it back up. You get around 10% conversion. It's not fast, but it's basicly risk-free. Sticks are very inexpensive. 2 Logs yield enough material for a full stack of arrows. Feathers however are the limiting factor. You get them from killing chickens or zombies. You have to expose yourself to danger, and it's quite time consuming since you have to do it with melee combat and you're just not going to be able to find enough of them when you want them. Feathers are cheaper than leather though, since they are dropped by two creatures, one of which has the courtesy to come to you rather than wandering randomly. Now, once you've mined and processed 160 units of gravel (to yield 16 flint), chopped and processed 2 logs, and killed 16 chickens/zombies, you have enough materials for 1 stack of arrows. How many people can you kill with 64 arrows? A fair amount. The more important question though is: How quickly will your arrow supply be depleted? How much time does it take to collect enough materials to replenish your stock? How much fighting are you missing while making ammunition?
-FoodThis will be the "most used resource". People need to eat food every time they are injured or they are vulnerable to death. People will go into battle with item-slots full of bread and roasted pork to stave off death long enough to deliver it instead to their foes. But where does food come from? How much will be eaten? What's the most cost-effective food available? I'm not certain of this, but I know that it's not cake. I think that a lot of time will have to be spent in the acquisition and production of food. Pork is the best food, but you have to actually go out and hunt it, which can be time-consuming. Bread can be made from wheat grown in the safety of your base, but it takes DAYS for the wheat to mature, can take up a lot of space, and farms are vulnerable to destruction. Fishing consumes spider-silk and so is in competition with bow-manufacturing, requires that you stand around with your attention on the water, but doesn't depend on the fickle spawning of pig herds. It's tough to say what the optimal food is. There is however one factor which will greatly reduce it's value: which brings me to Issue #2:
#2: DEATH IS CHEAP. Seriously, how much effort is it worth expending to kill a guy who's going to respawn at full health probably less than a kilometer away? Is it worth 5 arrows? Is it worth a TNT? Is it worth a few sword-swings? Ok, yes it's worth the sword-swings, but given how little consequence death has, there's no real other killing-method that's worthwhile. The only other costs of death is the loss of your inventory (but seriously, who's going to walk into battle with a pocket full of diamonds?) and the fact that you're prevented temporarily from achieving whatever your goal was. Furthermore, if you find yourself low on health, instead of consuming some of your valuable grilled pork, you might be better-off stashing your equipment somewhere and committing suicide. That is how utterly inconsequential death is. Warfare in Minecraft is going to involve a lot of repeated suicidal attacks on the enemy to damage their base. Which brings me to issue #3:
#3: DESTRUCTION IS EASY One word: Griefing. That's what warfare is all about. Nonstop team-griefing. All that carefully designed architecture? Smashed! Your carefully collected supplies? I was worried that I might get caught stealing, so I just set all your stuff on fire instead. All gone! Your impressive fortifications? I can practicly SWIM through stone. There is nothing you can build that is so impressive or mighty that it cannot be ruined with 1/10th of the effort. Walls will be useless. How long does it take to build a basic 3-high cobblestone wall enclosing a 32x32 area? A while, but not TOO long if you're an experienced builder. 5-10 minutes? How long does it take to bypass such a wall? Breaking a 2x1 hole to walk through will take all of 3 seconds. No tools? Collect some dirt with your bare hands hand make some steps or pillar your way up. Fortifications as we commonly think of them with walls and towers and moats and bunkers will all be essentially useless. Traps? Maybe someone might fall for them once, but they are expensive to build, and death is cheap. Also, if somebody has reason to believe that a doorway is trapped, what's to stop them from just demolishing it, smashing your pressure-plates, cutting your redstone wiring, and breaking the walls to reveal hidden mechanisms. Dispenser full of arrows? YAY!! FREE ARROWS!!!! TNT landmine? I think I'll set it off on purpose to see the explosion! Everything that you make can and will be destroyed.
Combined, these 3 factors lead me to make the following provocative statement:
Warfare in minecraft will consist of nothing but naked people running at each other with stone swords.
While an amusing image, this will not be FUN, the ensuing chaotic click-fest will completely overshadow all the other portions of the game. There will be no constructions, no traps, no advanced resources, no expensive equipment, NOTHING. Everything is just too expensive, and death is too cheap.
This disturbing conclusion has lead me to ponder the following question: What things would have to be changed in order to make large-scale organized conflict in Minecraft FUN? I think I might start a thread about this, but I'd like to see if anybody else has any thoughts on the issue and if this has already been addressed in any way.
Look here to find links to my inventions, creations, and my Youtube channel featuring Amazing Creations of Mine (Redstone engineering FTW!!!) and charming Music-Videos about clones. I also made "Minecraft in Minecraft" (2D platformer/building game). I'm currently trying to make a computer.
I have three proposals to make war more "fun". The first is a short period of prep time prior to engaging in war. This gives each army the time to gather resources, but they must make a choice. Do they focus on mining and making better arms and armor, do they make wheat farms, or do they go out and hunt mobs? Each has its own unique benefits, so each army will make a decision. Their strategies will change, as will the style of warfare. A pre-war preparation period will make war much more than a speed-clicking brawl.
Secondly, death should come with consequence. The simplest way would be to put in an adminium jail at the spawn point so that players cannot continue to fight when they die, and the last one standing wins. Another, albeit more complicated option would be to make a server mod that tracks death and prevents killed players from interacting with the terrain. If players are rendered incapable of fighting when they die, they will consider death to be much more of a consequence.
My third suggestion is not really a suggestion, but rather a point to be made regarding your statement. Minecraftians do have destructive capabilities, but the point of most structures are not to stop, but rather delay. This is especially true in war scenarios that are along the lines of capture the flag. Yes, it may be easy to pillar above and over a wall, but if you do not carry around a stack of dirt you have to take that time to gather the dirt, place it, and then continue. And all the while, the other team is advancing on your flag on the other side of the map. And most walls probably wouldn't just be squares around an open area. A good base would be full of traps, tricks, and mazes to delay the enemy and hopefully get them lost or killed.
In conclusion, my responses in order to your statements:
(1) War is expensive. Add prep time. It makes it cheaper and adds flavor.
(2) Death is cheap. So make it of consequence by removing killed players from the fight.
(3) Minecraftians have incredible destructive capabilities. Make your bases more complex than a wall around a chest. Add mazes and other traps to hinder the progress of your enemy.
The two problems I am having with your post, Hans, are:
- I strongly believe the inverse of your first two points.
- I have played on many PvP servers, and none have turned out as you state.
#1. War is Cheap:
The resources required to wage a war in Minecraft are numerous and naturally occuring across the entire Minecraft world, and only require the investment of TIME to find. TIME is the most valuable resource in Minecraft because it opens the tech trees for all other skills. Mining, Crafting, Smelting, Building. Without the powerful TIME resource, you cannot act. If you have a large enough group, with enough TIME you can build a Mob Tower with an efficiency rate of around 5 stacks of gunpowder per hour [1 Stack of TNT assuming ample supply of sand]. You throw out the usefulness of Diamond because of their rarity... but if you create a branch mine in accordance to the thread- Elites of Minecraft: The Miners, you can find diamonds at an astounding rate assuming a group of people working together in a branch mine with a large enough time investment. My clan is always armed to the teeth with Diamond Swords and Armour, and stacks of TNT. Bows and Arrows too come from the Mob Tower in infinite supply. Nothing is expensive enough in Minecraft to warrant its disuse. Building an animal spawning room [full of grass] will spawn hundreds of animals a day allowing for the harvesting of eggs, feathers, leather and pork.
#2. Death is Expensive
It is worth and infinite amount of energy and time to kill an enemy in Minecraft whom is assaulting your property. Assuming you have been an intelligent group of people, and built your base quite far away from spawn, with the correct defenses and such, killing a player will send them 10+ Kilometers away. That is a large enough trek that it will dissuade said enemy from returning for long enough that you may prepare for a second wave. However... personally... if my base was ever compromised, we'd have to move out right away. If you're playing a game of king-of-the-hill or capture the flag, however, ground is valuable and shouldn't be abandoned, and it is quite expensive if you die, and lose your items, your position, and your ground. The person running at the base full of people in full diamond armour, equipped with nothing but a stone sword, unfortunately stands no chance of success.
I agree that destruction is easy. But this is what makes War in Minecraft a viable option for gameplay.
It's simply not true. Every war server I have gone to is dominated by those [my own clan] who seek out ground far from spawn, establish a mob tower and branch mine, and gain a steady supply of war materials with which to destroy the opposing clans. You gain even more resources by taking them from defeated enemies, and if we go by what Sun Tzu states, the resources of our enemies are worth much more than if we had retrieved them ourselves, because it negates the time invesment of the enemy.
However! I still think you should create the thread "What things would have to be changed in order to make large-scale organized conflict in Miecraft FUN?" because it would start an interesting debate, and ultimately lead us to some better consensus.
I'm glad you took the time to respond in such a fashion, so thank you Hans. If I've overlooked something, feel free to call me out on it.
Edit: @Blagob
When a new war server begins, there is always a period of Prep time in which the first clans to join have free reign of where and how they want to construct your base. You snooze, you lose. People joining later might not have that luxury, but that is the same as RL. You must take opportunities when they arise, not when you want them. Preparing a base, even with people around you, is not difficult if you go far enough out.
The adminium jail is not something that I support for a few reasons. Firstly, it's not part of the vanilla game. Secondly, death is already a consequence enough, as it removes your items, removes your position, and removes you from your comrades. You are naked, and alone in spawn, and subject to those people who camp around spawn waiting for victims.
I agree that if you want to succeed you should make your base very difficult to intrude into. Hide secret entrances, and heavily trap obvious entrances so people die who attempt to enter. Hide your chests near the base, but NOT IN IT. That is the first thing people look for in a base, and if you leave them out in the open, you're only making it easier for them.