Having read through the first 8 pages of this thread and starting to be able to say users' arguments without reading their posts, this is just my opinion (I do realize that this will probably be dismissed as irrelevant to the discussion and off topic and will probably have been brought up and addressed by someone else in the 30+ pages I didn't read):
Mob farming is perfectly fine and should only be changed if it does not affect the only real core game mechanic in MC, the ability to place, remove, and, do hilarious things with blocks of different properties and appearances. I believe that how "balanced" mob farming is is, not only, totally irrelevant, but actually balanced. My basic argument is that a grinder is a giant furnace. (skip to paragraph 8, with the stars, if you don't want to read about how I derive enjoyment from playing MC)
Mob farming, in my view, is the exploitation of (and by that I mean clever use, not cheating, since that's all it really is) a bunch of game mechanics to improve how efficiently we are able to affect the blocks in the players' environment. Just as a side note, The only thing I consider cheating is giving yourself an advantage over others in a competitive setting that is unattainable to others by doing things that are disallowed in the competition unless they too engage in activities disallowed by those in power (that would include use of mob grinders is the server disallows it but not in general). It is just one of the ways that we have found to extend the length of time we find MC enjoyable and not cheating or breaking the game or whatever else it may be negatively referred to as. Everything else in MC should support the ability to have fun with blocks and extend the length of time the player finds picking up and placing blocks enjoyable.
I currently view survival mode and a sort of "enhanced creative mode". I agree with the post a few above that the name of the mode and the actual experience are not the same. I think a true survival mode should be closer to the line of more traditional games with a story or traditional zombie horror survival games. I do think the name does affect peoples' perceptions of what should and should not be included or allowed (I'm trying not to put words into peoples' mouths, I just think that everyone, including myself do things like this unconsciously, sorry If I might sound smartass-ish or like I'm "above" everyone else. I don't mean to).
Please don't just retort by saying that I should then play on peaceful. The spawning of hostile mobs greatly enhances the value of users' creations. In creative/peaceful mode there is no risk to the structures and the player feels less attached to the constructs. If it knew how to mod I'd make instant explosion creepers and skeletons that shoot explosive arrows. I'd make only creepers and skeletons spawn because I love their ability to screw with my constructs. That makes the enjoyable time I can spend on the game longer as I actively protect and repair my structures.
The creation of a mob grinder is itself a fun undertaking. Having done so without a guide, I can say it was a great learning experience and it has extended the time I find playing MC enjoyable. Granted, mine was horribly inefficient until I did a little research and a pretty huge eyesore, in allowing for more epic creations it has lengthened the amount of time I find MC enjoyable. There was a large investment in time in the creation of a grinder to gather materials. I don't buy the "unlimited reward for finite investment of time" argument as the only point of a mob grinder is to enable massive constructs or experiments with TNT.
Please don't say that I should just INVedit or spawn stuff because that reduces the emotional investment in the constructs reducing my enjoyment. Also, don't say that my "fun factor" is irrelevant as that is really the whole point of the game and as such, must ALWAYS be considered in EVERY decision. If MC stops being fun, I'll stop playing, simple as that. I can't speak for the whole community but I can't see why anyone would continue with a not fun game especially since we're not on a subscription or anything like that.
*****Anywhoo, back to unlimited reward thing. I don't see how receiving a greatly accelerated supply of gun powder and bone meal is doing anything to make affecting my characters environment as I please (once again, what I view as the only really important thing in MC) unbalanced. To me, it's like building a smelter so I can turn wood into charcoal so I don't have to mine coal anymore because the distance would become prohibitive. It took all of 2 minutes to gather the materials and craft the furnaces and I can leave wood in there to smelt while doing other stuff. To me, that is the exact same as a mob grinder. Every time I use my array of furnaces I'm sitting doing other stuff not paying attention to the game. To me, saying that grinders must be made impossible or greatly slowed down is like saying furnaces must be made to not accept stacks of wood or what ever you're smelting and should only function like it does with pork chops, one at a time manually. To me, this is analogous to forcing me to hunt mobs for resources as it forces me to sit and do a repetitive task from which I derive no enjoyment and takes a great length of time. Since building the grinder was a much larger investment than the furnace, I think the much larger reward is fair.*****
Yes, to me, the creation of a furnace and a mob grinder are the same thing on very different scales. Both require the "crafting" of gathered resources into a greater whole. The furnace happens to be on the micro scale, taking advantage of very few game mechanics, and the grinder on a macro scale, using many game mechanics in a specific combination. Both are also merely tools which allow the player to more efficiently alter their environment to their liking without the need to spend huge amounts of time grinding as that is not the point of MC.
I honestly don't really view fighting mobs as a really important part of the gameplay unless it it some way deepens the player's emotional investment into their structures. Spending nights running about in the dark hunting just doesn't do that for me. If I wanted to manually grind monster I'd play a game in which that is the core gameplay mechanic. I'd go play WoW or some other MMORPG. If I want an adventure I'd go play Oblivion, or something like that. If I want a true survival game, which I never ever do anyways but for the sake or argument I'll list it, I'll play Dead Space or Left4Dead or something like that. If I want combat against others I'd play Modern Warfare, Halo, etc or maybe just actually go compete with other and go fencing or do some other sports. The most fun thing about MC is that it is so bloody different and allows me to affect my environment in ways no other game does. That is what MC is good at. There will be different modes and different games for different tastes and desires. I just don't want this current iteration of MC, which works for me, to get ruined by forcing me to manually grind mobs. I know "ruined" is subjective, but my view is the only one I can talk about and the only one that really matters to me.
Well, that's my view. It's not really an argument. I may or may not reply to any counter-arguments or whatever as I don't really check these forums often. If you really have a dire need to argue with me, PM me I guess? It's now 4:45 in the morning where I am and I still can't sleep... time to find something else to do. And, no, that does not include firing up MC as then I'll really not make it to school at 8:30... I hate 8:30 class, next term I'll go for all afternoon classes...
Also, I thought the food thing was about changing the difficulty slider to creative/realistic instead of peaceful/hard... where did I see or hear that... I can't remember. I'm probably wrong on that as I'm not really up to date on all things MC.
And you definitely just helped by bumping the topic, right? Good job at keeping the topic alive. If I had an eyeroll emote, I'd give it to you.
eyeroll.gif
Anyways, I'm going to edit my first post in this thread so hopefully the people coming in for the first time might see it and realize that we're not talking about what they're about to talk about. We're talking about pure mechanics, not how something affects the game or how fair it is or blah blah blah.
The Key phrase to remember here is "Work smarter, not harder"
As humans we've been doing this for centuries.
So if you're so interested in setting up new efficient ways to do things, go get investments to start a factory or something. The key point to actually remember here is that Minecraft is a game, not real life.
You've clearly stated that anything that allows you to make the game easier through smart planning (or by copying, for that matter) should be enabled. Where do you draw the line? Should automatic wheat harvesters be created? Should there be a way to auto-deposit floating items in nearby chests? Should you be able to automatically load those items into minecarts and automatically send them away where they are automatically loaded into your main storage? Should you be able to build automatic diamond miners and deposit those in the same way?
Obviously not, because that just gets ridiculous. I see that the way you're actually drawing the line is based purely on whether the technique already exists in the game. Because you can make mob grinders now, and they make the game easier, you think they should not be removed. This really reminds me of the community's thoughts on wavedashing when it was removed in the transition from Super Smash Bros. Melee to Brawl.
The Key phrase to remember here is "Work smarter, not harder"
As humans we've been doing this for centuries.
So if you're so interested in setting up new efficient ways to do things, go get investments to start a factory or something. The key point to actually remember here is that Minecraft is a game, not real life.
You've clearly stated that anything that allows you to make the game easier through smart planning (or by copying, for that matter) should be enabled. Where do you draw the line? Should automatic wheat harvesters be created? Should there be a way to auto-deposit floating items in nearby chests? Should you be able to automatically load those items into minecarts and automatically send them away where they are automatically loaded into your main storage? Should you be able to build automatic diamond miners and deposit those in the same way?
Obviously not, because that just gets ridiculous. I see that the way you're actually drawing the line is based purely on whether the technique already exists in the game. Because you can make mob grinders now, and they make the game easier, you think they should not be removed. This really reminds me of the community's thoughts on wavedashing when it was removed in the transition from Super Smash Bros. Melee to Brawl.
Actually, I think the argument is more that there is nothing wrong with using game mechanics to your advantage, and there is no reason to vastly change said game mechanics solely to remove a nowhere near broken exploitation of the mechanics.
...But all of that is irrelevant to the balance of grinders versus hunting...
I think they're fine, Minecraft is about doing what you want right?
so if you hack to build a huge one, you could just hack your items, which means you're doing it for the fun of seeing it work.
If you build one legit, you spent time on it. It was your effort. Single player? well, no one is gonna stop you, it's your own choice. Multi? if the people on your server don't like it, they or you can move.
Minecraft is like a free market.
(sorry horrible analogy)
this is my opinion. I think Grinders are fine as is.
Mob farming is perfectly fine and should only be changed if it does not affect the only real core game mechanic in MC, the ability to place, remove, and, do hilarious things with blocks of different properties and appearances. I believe that how "balanced" mob farming is is, not only, totally irrelevant, but actually balanced. My basic argument is that a grinder is a giant furnace. (skip to paragraph 8, with the stars, if you don't want to read about how I derive enjoyment from playing MC)
Mob farming, in my view, is the exploitation of (and by that I mean clever use, not cheating, since that's all it really is) a bunch of game mechanics to improve how efficiently we are able to affect the blocks in the players' environment. Just as a side note, The only thing I consider cheating is giving yourself an advantage over others in a competitive setting that is unattainable to others by doing things that are disallowed in the competition unless they too engage in activities disallowed by those in power (that would include use of mob grinders is the server disallows it but not in general). It is just one of the ways that we have found to extend the length of time we find MC enjoyable and not cheating or breaking the game or whatever else it may be negatively referred to as. Everything else in MC should support the ability to have fun with blocks and extend the length of time the player finds picking up and placing blocks enjoyable.
I currently view survival mode and a sort of "enhanced creative mode". I agree with the post a few above that the name of the mode and the actual experience are not the same. I think a true survival mode should be closer to the line of more traditional games with a story or traditional zombie horror survival games. I do think the name does affect peoples' perceptions of what should and should not be included or allowed (I'm trying not to put words into peoples' mouths, I just think that everyone, including myself do things like this unconsciously, sorry If I might sound smartass-ish or like I'm "above" everyone else. I don't mean to).
Please don't just retort by saying that I should then play on peaceful. The spawning of hostile mobs greatly enhances the value of users' creations. In creative/peaceful mode there is no risk to the structures and the player feels less attached to the constructs. If it knew how to mod I'd make instant explosion creepers and skeletons that shoot explosive arrows. I'd make only creepers and skeletons spawn because I love their ability to screw with my constructs. That makes the enjoyable time I can spend on the game longer as I actively protect and repair my structures.
The creation of a mob grinder is itself a fun undertaking. Having done so without a guide, I can say it was a great learning experience and it has extended the time I find playing MC enjoyable. Granted, mine was horribly inefficient until I did a little research and a pretty huge eyesore, in allowing for more epic creations it has lengthened the amount of time I find MC enjoyable. There was a large investment in time in the creation of a grinder to gather materials. I don't buy the "unlimited reward for finite investment of time" argument as the only point of a mob grinder is to enable massive constructs or experiments with TNT.
Please don't say that I should just INVedit or spawn stuff because that reduces the emotional investment in the constructs reducing my enjoyment. Also, don't say that my "fun factor" is irrelevant as that is really the whole point of the game and as such, must ALWAYS be considered in EVERY decision. If MC stops being fun, I'll stop playing, simple as that. I can't speak for the whole community but I can't see why anyone would continue with a not fun game especially since we're not on a subscription or anything like that.
*****Anywhoo, back to unlimited reward thing. I don't see how receiving a greatly accelerated supply of gun powder and bone meal is doing anything to make affecting my characters environment as I please (once again, what I view as the only really important thing in MC) unbalanced. To me, it's like building a smelter so I can turn wood into charcoal so I don't have to mine coal anymore because the distance would become prohibitive. It took all of 2 minutes to gather the materials and craft the furnaces and I can leave wood in there to smelt while doing other stuff. To me, that is the exact same as a mob grinder. Every time I use my array of furnaces I'm sitting doing other stuff not paying attention to the game. To me, saying that grinders must be made impossible or greatly slowed down is like saying furnaces must be made to not accept stacks of wood or what ever you're smelting and should only function like it does with pork chops, one at a time manually. To me, this is analogous to forcing me to hunt mobs for resources as it forces me to sit and do a repetitive task from which I derive no enjoyment and takes a great length of time. Since building the grinder was a much larger investment than the furnace, I think the much larger reward is fair.*****
Yes, to me, the creation of a furnace and a mob grinder are the same thing on very different scales. Both require the "crafting" of gathered resources into a greater whole. The furnace happens to be on the micro scale, taking advantage of very few game mechanics, and the grinder on a macro scale, using many game mechanics in a specific combination. Both are also merely tools which allow the player to more efficiently alter their environment to their liking without the need to spend huge amounts of time grinding as that is not the point of MC.
I honestly don't really view fighting mobs as a really important part of the gameplay unless it it some way deepens the player's emotional investment into their structures. Spending nights running about in the dark hunting just doesn't do that for me. If I wanted to manually grind monster I'd play a game in which that is the core gameplay mechanic. I'd go play WoW or some other MMORPG. If I want an adventure I'd go play Oblivion, or something like that. If I want a true survival game, which I never ever do anyways but for the sake or argument I'll list it, I'll play Dead Space or Left4Dead or something like that. If I want combat against others I'd play Modern Warfare, Halo, etc or maybe just actually go compete with other and go fencing or do some other sports. The most fun thing about MC is that it is so bloody different and allows me to affect my environment in ways no other game does. That is what MC is good at. There will be different modes and different games for different tastes and desires. I just don't want this current iteration of MC, which works for me, to get ruined by forcing me to manually grind mobs. I know "ruined" is subjective, but my view is the only one I can talk about and the only one that really matters to me.
Well, that's my view. It's not really an argument. I may or may not reply to any counter-arguments or whatever as I don't really check these forums often. If you really have a dire need to argue with me, PM me I guess? It's now 4:45 in the morning where I am and I still can't sleep... time to find something else to do. And, no, that does not include firing up MC as then I'll really not make it to school at 8:30... I hate 8:30 class, next term I'll go for all afternoon classes...
Also, I thought the food thing was about changing the difficulty slider to creative/realistic instead of peaceful/hard... where did I see or hear that... I can't remember. I'm probably wrong on that as I'm not really up to date on all things MC.
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Retired StaffAnd you definitely just helped by bumping the topic, right? Good job at keeping the topic alive. If I had an eyeroll emote, I'd give it to you.
eyeroll.gif
Anyways, I'm going to edit my first post in this thread so hopefully the people coming in for the first time might see it and realize that we're not talking about what they're about to talk about. We're talking about pure mechanics, not how something affects the game or how fair it is or blah blah blah.
So if you're so interested in setting up new efficient ways to do things, go get investments to start a factory or something. The key point to actually remember here is that Minecraft is a game, not real life.
You've clearly stated that anything that allows you to make the game easier through smart planning (or by copying, for that matter) should be enabled. Where do you draw the line? Should automatic wheat harvesters be created? Should there be a way to auto-deposit floating items in nearby chests? Should you be able to automatically load those items into minecarts and automatically send them away where they are automatically loaded into your main storage? Should you be able to build automatic diamond miners and deposit those in the same way?
Obviously not, because that just gets ridiculous. I see that the way you're actually drawing the line is based purely on whether the technique already exists in the game. Because you can make mob grinders now, and they make the game easier, you think they should not be removed. This really reminds me of the community's thoughts on wavedashing when it was removed in the transition from Super Smash Bros. Melee to Brawl.
Actually, I think the argument is more that there is nothing wrong with using game mechanics to your advantage, and there is no reason to vastly change said game mechanics solely to remove a nowhere near broken exploitation of the mechanics.
...But all of that is irrelevant to the balance of grinders versus hunting...
so if you hack to build a huge one, you could just hack your items, which means you're doing it for the fun of seeing it work.
If you build one legit, you spent time on it. It was your effort. Single player? well, no one is gonna stop you, it's your own choice. Multi? if the people on your server don't like it, they or you can move.
Minecraft is like a free market.
(sorry horrible analogy)
this is my opinion. I think Grinders are fine as is.
1: if a player tses the time and effort to make a mob farm, they should keep their farm
2: perhaps we could have mor advanced/cunning AI on harder difficulties?
OMG! MY POST IS ON FIRE!