I will definitely build version 2.0 in this fashion, either with a holding area that launches a cart into the boosters (sort of treating the boosters as a "launcher" more than a "loop") or do it the way you've done with a reset to prevent critical momentum and having the cart loop through the boosters infinitely. I just worry that since the boosters are SOOO long that their reset time may prevent me from doing a loop. We'll see, but I should have that video up as quick as I can though.
For those who were wondering, minecarts pick up a certain amount of energy X as they go down a single sloped track section, and lose that same X amount of energy when they go up a track section. They gain and lose the same amount...so yes, the gigantic hill in that test of yours did nothing but to lengthen the amount of time it took for a test.
Also, I think the OP mentioned that you could make perpetual motion using this, and I would say that yes, you probably can. Only problem is that you shouldn't have any flat track sections between the slopes, otherwise the minecart will eventually lose all its energy.
For those who were wondering, minecarts pick up a certain amount of energy X as they go down a single sloped track section, and lose that same X amount of energy when they go up a track section. They gain and lose the same amount...so yes, the gigantic hill in that test of yours did nothing but to lengthen the amount of time it took for a test.
Also, I think the OP mentioned that you could make perpetual motion using this, and I would say that yes, you probably can. Only problem is that you shouldn't have any flat track sections between the slopes, otherwise the minecart will eventually lose all its energy.
Does the cart not still get slowed by friction on the uphill and downhill slopes? If it does, then an up-and-down hill track should have the same amount of perpetual-ness as a flat loop of the same track length.
Momentum change on the upslope:
-friction
-gravitational potential energy
Momentum change on the downslope:
-friction
+gravitational potential energy
The net change in GPE is 0, so for every loop of the hill completed the height change has no net effect. The track length is the same as an equivalent flat loop, so the losses due to friction should be the same.
TL;DR - A sloped loop demonstrates "perpetual" motion just as well as a flat loop does.
-how far a loaded cart gets propelled in regard to amount of tiles it was boosted, for example 3 tiles in boost=300 tiles traveled (numbers are not exact, just for the sale of exemplification)
[...]
From my initial constructs, a simple flat booster was enough to propel my cart for 200-300 blocks without any visible loss in energy, 7 tiles "in boost"
FWIW, my 3 block doubled-cart booster propelled an empty cart for 108 blocks (flat track). An occupied cart was significantly longer (about 1,425 blocks, in fact).
Alright guys, you can expect the tutorial today or tomorrow! I'm going to message one of the guys who did those giant highways and see if I can use their maps. That way I can have conclusive testing without any pigs. What to expect:
Tutorial on how to build my redstone counter.
Tutorial on how to build indignation's minecart counter.
Tutorial on how to actually build the device itself, and ways to compact it.
Tutorial on spacious, easier to build alternatives, as well as how you can hide them as well.
ALSO GOING TO BE INCLUDED:
What I found to be the optimal length for each way (based on size per distance or how long the counter runs)
A fully functional station of my own design, with a minecart calling system and auto reloader.
And finally, a way to activate pressure plates with minecarts without stopping them, with or without a rider! (this has got to be discovered before, it's too simple, but still I'm willing to bet a few people didn't know it)
I think that's it! It's going to be a long video, so I might split it into two. Brush up on your redstone and minecarts, because I'm going to go on thinking that you know the basics of redstone and minecarts (aka just go watch Bob's minecart tutorial's again- here's the link to the first one )
I must admit, I am eagerly awaiting the tutorial for this system. I am currently debating whether to install this system and use minecarts for my transportation system or using the EATS system and using boats. I would prefer using the Minecart system, so that I can shuttle inventory around. I'm hoping that you can compact it small enough for me to fit it into my Station Terminal areas, although they tend to have a fairly decent amount of space below them.
Ooookay. I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that I might not be releasing the tutorial today... HOWEVER the good news is that I have really really compacted it. If I can squeeze the redstone in, I can make this happen in a really small area.
If the redstone fits, it will be 8x17x7 (wxLxh) And that's including the resetter, and the redstone. Also, it's twice as efficient, will never mess up, uses half, no probably a third, of the iron, the counter is miniature, and the tracks only occupy half of the width for most of it's length, the only part using the full width is the resetter, which is tiny. And if you want it all above ground, this design is just as efficient for the minecart counter (not including the counter itself) and if you have some design for the redstone, then the whole thing is just 8x17x2 (or 3 if you count the ground). So, I'm incredibly sorry for the wait, but trust me, it'll be worth it.
Ok, just for Science's sake I just did some testing to back up my earlier claims.
I created an 80 block long double booster connected to a loop.
Considering it is still going after about 2 days I think the answer is obvious: that the true reason behind length traveled is based on the length of the boost.
Now, while your system is quite impressive, it is also very spacious (though I know you have compacted it some), and contains a lot of non-required stuff. In the end, the simple solution to infinite distance is just one really long booster to start you off.
Also, I did some tests based on booster amount.
It seems that while a 1 block booster may travel 10 blocks (all these numbers are made up), a 2 block booster travels about 12 blocks, and a 3 block booster travels about 25 blocks, the 4th traveling 28 blocks. The amount of booster tracks seems to be exponentially related to the amount traveled, though even numbers always tend to be just a few higher than their odd counterpart.
I have not tested lengths with double boosters related to length. Will work on this next.
Sorry if it's already been brought up, but can't you make a reciprocating infinite loop booster? The carts stay in motion, while the momentum constantly reverses direction, so no risk of failure from momentum overflow there. When a signal tells the booster to send a cart, it gets sent into one of those long booster things to gain momentum.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Youtube channel.
Contains Pachebel's Canon made with noteblocks, a working Rubik's cube made with pistons, and the ultimate TNT cannon.
Currently, the only starting booster (station launch mechanism?) that is going to always be ready to go is one that starts carts as needed and stops them when there is no one waiting for a push.
If any part of the station requires carts that are in motion when idle, it will fail when no one is near it to keep the chunks loaded.
That makes the door-based launcher the current leader in my book, though it might benefit from use as a starter for the longer, more elaborate systems so you can build up respectable speed.
During the past day, Notch responded favorably to a tweet suggesting that minecarts be given observer status so that they themselves keep chunks loaded, so things could change if that happens. I haven't seen him respond unfavorably to much though (a few things, yes).
Currently, the only starting booster (station launch mechanism?) that is going to always be ready to go is one that starts carts as needed and stops them when there is no one waiting for a push.
If any part of the station requires carts that are in motion when idle, it will fail when no one is near it to keep the chunks loaded.
I don't think this is true. I've never seen the two-carts-alternately-boosting-each-other-with-stops-to-avoid-overflow method fail due to unloaded chunks, except when the "holding" track they were on crosses a chunk boundary.
Quote from triggerfin »
During the past day, Notch responded favorably to a tweet suggesting that minecarts be given observer status so that they themselves keep chunks loaded, so things could change if that happens. I haven't seen him respond unfavorably to much though (a few things, yes).
That could be useful for empty-cart-return or cart-tradeback systems, but I suspect it'd be hell on performance. Especially for those people who use in-motion holding loops.
This idea seemed real promising, so I gave the simplest form (giant long booster) a shot. Unfortunately, even with a length of effectively over 110 and double boosted the whole way, an unmanned cart wont make it from my base to spawn. (so i can return the cart) (and yes, it is a long way)
I may extend the booster even farther, but going from single to double boost only added about 25% more distance. I wanted to see if the idea worked as far as perpetual-ish goes. I'm sure it would work for carts with people (or mobs?) in them, but the plan to use it to return carts seems overly ambitious.
@nightryder I'm working on a new concept on double boosters ATM that seems to propel empty carts very well. I'm going to post a video showing it's capabilities and a tutorial on building it soon, like, tonight if possible, if not tomorrow (stupid animals keep jumping on my carts...)
Here is an off the wall idea: pig spawners with a water conveyor belt leading into a cart hopper system that sends the cart once it has a pig. Possibly doable, probably way too complicated, and definitely ridiculous. haha! (all assuming pigs weigh as much as humans..)
To OP, have you tried running your system till it breaks, and noting the loops? I think I recall you saying you tried it with 7 loops, but it took too long. If you split the loops into separate sets, you could sacrifice space used for a shorter waiting period. For instance, instead of doing 6 trips around the track you have, make 3 sets of the track, have the first as is, but send the cart after 2 rotations around the loop. From that set, you send it to start around the second loop, and start another cart on the first one. Etc. This way you only have to wait for 2 trips around the track. Of course you could make it one trip with 6 separate track loops.
Also: didnt someone say they could trigger buttons/pressure plates without driving a cart over them? Anyone know that trick? I'm sure I can figure it out, so I'm just throwing this question out for kicks. Maybe I'll get an answer and wont have to do any research/trial-and-error.
Hey everyone,
Sorry, I just got back home, I'm going to see if I can finish my test station, and once that's done, build another redstone counter and minecart counter so I can build it on video, and then I should be able to record and show you. I'll try posting a pic or two. And I was thinking about making a new thread for the tutorial, you think I should?
Now to answer questions.
@nightryder
I was the one to mention that you can trigger them without stopping your cart, I'll demonstrate it in the tutorial, it's crucial for the compacted version. Also, your second idea isn't making sense to me, but I think that's just because it's 2 am and I have a cold. And a headache.
Also, about your empty cart- yeah, that's definitely the hardest to boost. Also, it might be unloading halfway there (I haven't test the effect of the unloading as these carts pass it)
@Captain Haemogoblin
I try my best
@everyone
To everyone testing this and other methods, thanks. I'm really trying to get this compact done, and then I'll test it. And honestly, I just don't like the whole double boost for a huge track length. It just doesn't look like it's working. It's why I probably wouldnt use all of my compact design myself, even if it tested perfectly (which I plan it to) Seeing the carts go nicely in double boosted loops just looks like it will send you a long long way. But that's a personal preference. Anyway, I'm going to take medicine, and see just how much I can finish before I fall asleep! Expect it tomorrow, healthy voice or not!
More bad news, woo! After extensive testing, it turns out the compacted version is rather weaker than it's larger cousin. I tested them both on a 15 track loop, without a rider, and after the (normal charge) the compact version sent it 42 times around (remember, without a rider), and the larger one sent it 55 times around (without a rider!). This is still an ENORMOUS upgrade from a normal booster, which sent it around a grand total of 3 times.
Good news is that you can still fit the bigger version within the 8x17x7 rectangle, it will just cost you more iron! But seriously, let's do some math here-
42x15= 630, that's how many tracks a normal charge will send an empty cart.
The wiki tells us that a cart with a rider goes approximately 12 times the distance.
630x12=7560
If you really need to go farther than that, or need your empty minecarts to go farther than 630, then please, just use the extra iron.
So I've been testing stuff relating to this thread, and thought I might share.
(used MCEdit+INVedit+minecraft singleplayer)
I created a loop 10 long, with a single booster on each side. I attached a manual switch to let the boosted cart out after I felt like it. The first thing I did was see how many loops you can do before the cart breaks/freaks out/goes backwards. The answer was 25. I did the test 3 times, and every time after 25 loops it gave up and went backwards for about 15 tiles. This is equivalent to a straight single booster of length 500 (length x its-a-circle x times around the circle = 10x2x25), although a straight booster wouldn't waste energy with the corners/ends where there is no boost so it would be shorter.
The next question I had was how far would that make an empty cart go? The answer is over 4300 track tiles. Of course this was a giant loop that went around and around, not a long straight shot. The actual loop was 532 (28x19) track pieces, bunched together as tight as can be fit (see pic). The empty cart went around this giant loop 8 times, and 3/4 of another time. There was also a large connector from the start of the loop to the end, which isnt taken into account; only makes the actual total larger.
SoOOOoooooo,
With all that said, I think the 5-7 loops the OP (the8bitengineers) uses is nowhere near the max. I know I only used single boosters, and him double, but I still think it could be 15+ rotations on his loop. Unfortunately, that would take both forever and a ton of space; not to mention resources. I wish there was a way to count to 15-25 or so easily.
Xaiier: For a second I thought your cart was still going after 2 irl days... Having said that, your data doesn't match what mine says (or the other way around if you prefer). My cart stops within one minecraft day. I wonder if it is because you have a circle and the cart only turns one way? Mine has lots of turns both ways, and I think turns make the cart slow down, but that is just a guess.
Edit: thought this chart might be cool to share
Type of boost Length Empty cart travels
Single 10 ~120
Double 10 ~160
Single loop 480 4300+
Single straight 250 2200+
So I've been testing stuff relating to this thread, and thought I might share.
(used MCEdit+INVedit+minecraft singleplayer)
I created a loop 10 long, with a single booster on each side. I attached a manual switch to let the boosted cart out after I felt like it. The first thing I did was see how many loops you can do before the cart breaks/freaks out/goes backwards. The answer was 25. I did the test 3 times, and every time after 25 loops it gave up and went backwards for about 15 tiles. This is equivalent to a straight single booster of length 500 (length x its-a-circle x times around the circle = 10x2x25), although a straight booster wouldn't waste energy with the corners/ends where there is no boost so it would be shorter.
The next question I had was how far would that make an empty cart go? The answer is over 4300 track tiles. Of course this was a giant loop that went around and around, not a long straight shot. The actual loop was 532 (28x19) track pieces, bunched together as tight as can be fit (see pic). The empty cart went around this giant loop 8 times, and 3/4 of another time. There was also a large connector from the start of the loop to the end, which isnt taken into account; only makes the actual total larger.
SoOOOoooooo,
With all that said, I think the 5-7 loops the OP (the8bitengineers) uses is nowhere near the max. I know I only used single boosters, and him double, but I still think it could be 15+ rotations on his loop. Unfortunately, that would take both forever and a ton of space; not to mention resources. I wish there was a way to count to 15-25 or so easily.
When I first saw this picture, I just kind of went... guhh.... and then read what you said. Also, I know I'm not using the max. Using the max would take a rather long time, and it's doubtful that someone will need the full power. I do have a solution for that though (though it wont solve how long it would take, but you can control it depending on where you would be going). My solution is to know your location. When I implement this in my world, I'm going to build a long redstone counter, and set the resets at different points, essentially changing how long it charges for. I'll have a max charge, a medium charge, and a small charge. The other alternative is to build multiple loops and have the first one that's ready sent to you, but that's even more excessive. By the way, I'm just about finished with the tutorial (that means an hour or two for me)
I will definitely build version 2.0 in this fashion, either with a holding area that launches a cart into the boosters (sort of treating the boosters as a "launcher" more than a "loop") or do it the way you've done with a reset to prevent critical momentum and having the cart loop through the boosters infinitely. I just worry that since the boosters are SOOO long that their reset time may prevent me from doing a loop. We'll see, but I should have that video up as quick as I can though.
Also... Check out my Youtube Channel
Also, I think the OP mentioned that you could make perpetual motion using this, and I would say that yes, you probably can. Only problem is that you shouldn't have any flat track sections between the slopes, otherwise the minecart will eventually lose all its energy.
Made by Me
You've got it right. I haven't tested it to see if ALL of the energy is transferred, but I can try to.
Smart Booster Tutorial- Part 1 | Part 2
The many uses of Reeds!
Our first Megabuild
Does the cart not still get slowed by friction on the uphill and downhill slopes? If it does, then an up-and-down hill track should have the same amount of perpetual-ness as a flat loop of the same track length.
Momentum change on the upslope:
-friction
-gravitational potential energy
Momentum change on the downslope:
-friction
+gravitational potential energy
The net change in GPE is 0, so for every loop of the hill completed the height change has no net effect. The track length is the same as an equivalent flat loop, so the losses due to friction should be the same.
TL;DR - A sloped loop demonstrates "perpetual" motion just as well as a flat loop does.
FWIW, my 3 block doubled-cart booster propelled an empty cart for 108 blocks (flat track). An occupied cart was significantly longer (about 1,425 blocks, in fact).
Tutorial on how to build my redstone counter.
Tutorial on how to build indignation's minecart counter.
Tutorial on how to actually build the device itself, and ways to compact it.
Tutorial on spacious, easier to build alternatives, as well as how you can hide them as well.
ALSO GOING TO BE INCLUDED:
What I found to be the optimal length for each way (based on size per distance or how long the counter runs)
A fully functional station of my own design, with a minecart calling system and auto reloader.
And finally, a way to activate pressure plates with minecarts without stopping them, with or without a rider! (this has got to be discovered before, it's too simple, but still I'm willing to bet a few people didn't know it)
I think that's it! It's going to be a long video, so I might split it into two. Brush up on your redstone and minecarts, because I'm going to go on thinking that you know the basics of redstone and minecarts (aka just go watch Bob's minecart tutorial's again- here's the link to the first one )
Smart Booster Tutorial- Part 1 | Part 2
The many uses of Reeds!
Our first Megabuild
Great work too, by the way.
J
If the redstone fits, it will be 8x17x7 (wxLxh) And that's including the resetter, and the redstone. Also, it's twice as efficient, will never mess up, uses half, no probably a third, of the iron, the counter is miniature, and the tracks only occupy half of the width for most of it's length, the only part using the full width is the resetter, which is tiny. And if you want it all above ground, this design is just as efficient for the minecart counter (not including the counter itself) and if you have some design for the redstone, then the whole thing is just 8x17x2 (or 3 if you count the ground). So, I'm incredibly sorry for the wait, but trust me, it'll be worth it.
Thank you all for your support and for waiting!
Smart Booster Tutorial- Part 1 | Part 2
The many uses of Reeds!
Our first Megabuild
I created an 80 block long double booster connected to a loop.
Considering it is still going after about 2 days I think the answer is obvious: that the true reason behind length traveled is based on the length of the boost.
Now, while your system is quite impressive, it is also very spacious (though I know you have compacted it some), and contains a lot of non-required stuff. In the end, the simple solution to infinite distance is just one really long booster to start you off.
Also, I did some tests based on booster amount.
It seems that while a 1 block booster may travel 10 blocks (all these numbers are made up), a 2 block booster travels about 12 blocks, and a 3 block booster travels about 25 blocks, the 4th traveling 28 blocks. The amount of booster tracks seems to be exponentially related to the amount traveled, though even numbers always tend to be just a few higher than their odd counterpart.
I have not tested lengths with double boosters related to length. Will work on this next.
Contains Pachebel's Canon made with noteblocks, a working Rubik's cube made with pistons, and the ultimate TNT cannon.
If any part of the station requires carts that are in motion when idle, it will fail when no one is near it to keep the chunks loaded.
That makes the door-based launcher the current leader in my book, though it might benefit from use as a starter for the longer, more elaborate systems so you can build up respectable speed.
During the past day, Notch responded favorably to a tweet suggesting that minecarts be given observer status so that they themselves keep chunks loaded, so things could change if that happens. I haven't seen him respond unfavorably to much though (a few things, yes).
I don't think this is true. I've never seen the two-carts-alternately-boosting-each-other-with-stops-to-avoid-overflow method fail due to unloaded chunks, except when the "holding" track they were on crosses a chunk boundary.
That could be useful for empty-cart-return or cart-tradeback systems, but I suspect it'd be hell on performance. Especially for those people who use in-motion holding loops.
I may extend the booster even farther, but going from single to double boost only added about 25% more distance. I wanted to see if the idea worked as far as perpetual-ish goes. I'm sure it would work for carts with people (or mobs?) in them, but the plan to use it to return carts seems overly ambitious.
Also... Check out my Youtube Channel
Sounds good!
Here is an off the wall idea: pig spawners with a water conveyor belt leading into a cart hopper system that sends the cart once it has a pig. Possibly doable, probably way too complicated, and definitely ridiculous. haha! (all assuming pigs weigh as much as humans..)
To OP, have you tried running your system till it breaks, and noting the loops? I think I recall you saying you tried it with 7 loops, but it took too long. If you split the loops into separate sets, you could sacrifice space used for a shorter waiting period. For instance, instead of doing 6 trips around the track you have, make 3 sets of the track, have the first as is, but send the cart after 2 rotations around the loop. From that set, you send it to start around the second loop, and start another cart on the first one. Etc. This way you only have to wait for 2 trips around the track. Of course you could make it one trip with 6 separate track loops.
Also: didnt someone say they could trigger buttons/pressure plates without driving a cart over them? Anyone know that trick? I'm sure I can figure it out, so I'm just throwing this question out for kicks. Maybe I'll get an answer and wont have to do any research/trial-and-error.
Sorry, I just got back home, I'm going to see if I can finish my test station, and once that's done, build another redstone counter and minecart counter so I can build it on video, and then I should be able to record and show you. I'll try posting a pic or two. And I was thinking about making a new thread for the tutorial, you think I should?
Now to answer questions.
@nightryder
I was the one to mention that you can trigger them without stopping your cart, I'll demonstrate it in the tutorial, it's crucial for the compacted version. Also, your second idea isn't making sense to me, but I think that's just because it's 2 am and I have a cold. And a headache.
Also, about your empty cart- yeah, that's definitely the hardest to boost. Also, it might be unloading halfway there (I haven't test the effect of the unloading as these carts pass it)
@Captain Haemogoblin
I try my best
@everyone
To everyone testing this and other methods, thanks. I'm really trying to get this compact done, and then I'll test it. And honestly, I just don't like the whole double boost for a huge track length. It just doesn't look like it's working. It's why I probably wouldnt use all of my compact design myself, even if it tested perfectly (which I plan it to) Seeing the carts go nicely in double boosted loops just looks like it will send you a long long way. But that's a personal preference. Anyway, I'm going to take medicine, and see just how much I can finish before I fall asleep! Expect it tomorrow, healthy voice or not!
Smart Booster Tutorial- Part 1 | Part 2
The many uses of Reeds!
Our first Megabuild
Good news is that you can still fit the bigger version within the 8x17x7 rectangle, it will just cost you more iron! But seriously, let's do some math here-
42x15= 630, that's how many tracks a normal charge will send an empty cart.
The wiki tells us that a cart with a rider goes approximately 12 times the distance.
630x12=7560
If you really need to go farther than that, or need your empty minecarts to go farther than 630, then please, just use the extra iron.
Smart Booster Tutorial- Part 1 | Part 2
The many uses of Reeds!
Our first Megabuild
(used MCEdit+INVedit+minecraft singleplayer)
I created a loop 10 long, with a single booster on each side. I attached a manual switch to let the boosted cart out after I felt like it. The first thing I did was see how many loops you can do before the cart breaks/freaks out/goes backwards. The answer was 25. I did the test 3 times, and every time after 25 loops it gave up and went backwards for about 15 tiles. This is equivalent to a straight single booster of length 500 (length x its-a-circle x times around the circle = 10x2x25), although a straight booster wouldn't waste energy with the corners/ends where there is no boost so it would be shorter.
The next question I had was how far would that make an empty cart go? The answer is over 4300 track tiles. Of course this was a giant loop that went around and around, not a long straight shot. The actual loop was 532 (28x19) track pieces, bunched together as tight as can be fit (see pic). The empty cart went around this giant loop 8 times, and 3/4 of another time. There was also a large connector from the start of the loop to the end, which isnt taken into account; only makes the actual total larger.
SoOOOoooooo,
With all that said, I think the 5-7 loops the OP (the8bitengineers) uses is nowhere near the max. I know I only used single boosters, and him double, but I still think it could be 15+ rotations on his loop. Unfortunately, that would take both forever and a ton of space; not to mention resources. I wish there was a way to count to 15-25 or so easily.
Xaiier: For a second I thought your cart was still going after 2 irl days... Having said that, your data doesn't match what mine says (or the other way around if you prefer). My cart stops within one minecraft day. I wonder if it is because you have a circle and the cart only turns one way? Mine has lots of turns both ways, and I think turns make the cart slow down, but that is just a guess.
Edit: thought this chart might be cool to share
When I first saw this picture, I just kind of went... guhh.... and then read what you said. Also, I know I'm not using the max. Using the max would take a rather long time, and it's doubtful that someone will need the full power. I do have a solution for that though (though it wont solve how long it would take, but you can control it depending on where you would be going). My solution is to know your location. When I implement this in my world, I'm going to build a long redstone counter, and set the resets at different points, essentially changing how long it charges for. I'll have a max charge, a medium charge, and a small charge. The other alternative is to build multiple loops and have the first one that's ready sent to you, but that's even more excessive. By the way, I'm just about finished with the tutorial (that means an hour or two for me)
Smart Booster Tutorial- Part 1 | Part 2
The many uses of Reeds!
Our first Megabuild