So far, you've said that magic isn't needed because we have swords.
Now I'm starting to think you're just skimming through my posts. I said magic wasn't needed because we have swords, and ranged weapons and enchantmants and potions. If enchantments and potions weren't in the game, I'd maybe be on board with this idea. The things I've listed can overpower mobs (and players) easily, so why throw this beefy magic on top of that? See the where the unbalanced part comes to play?
Well, a lot of games offer alternatives to just using melee or ranged weapons, such as magic. The reasoning being that having few options can get boring. You might be alright with it, but that isn't reason for everyone else to be. Also, it is a choice, you could ignore it all together, as long as it doesn't interfere with non-magic combat, which it certainly shouldn't.
You just pulled out yet another invalid argument: "if you don't like, don't use it!" Is that gonna stop some kid in multiplayer from hitting me 50 blocks away with some annoying electric spell? Nope.
You did mention at one point that potions do similar things as the suggested spells, but they more often backfire than anything. So, if potions could be thrown farther, it could be an alternative.
They backfire if you don't throw them carefully. That's a pretty balanced tradeoff for splash potions, considering how horrendously powerful some of them can be.
You've said that it might upset combat balance, and I completely agree, it shouldn't ever be op. For the "less armor, faster spell regen", it's because then you would sacrifice defense for ranged magic spells, limited only by xp/magic bar. It comes with a risk to try to balance it. And yes, some of the suggestions need a lot of tweaking.
Armor or not, being able to hit some 50 blocks away just turns the player into friggin' Zeus. These things would be unholy annoying in multiplayer.
To keep potions still significant versus magic, magic could be less effective compared to potion effects, this way spells aren't just infinite potions with a cooldown, but be less likely to backfire than potions. This could encourage using both magic and weapons in unison.
At this point in the suggestion, this is starting to sound like a "Less X, but more Y" suggestion. Even if the magic was more balanced out, being able to electrocute or straight blind things from distance just adds more horror to balance. In other words, it opens the door for more balance problems in the long run.
Since enchantments go on swords, and can't be used unless they are on swords, they don't constitute their own form of attack. It'd be difficult to use Sharpness V without a sword to put it on. As for potions, they are difficult to use without backfiring on the user, just as I said previously.
You called it "this beefy magic", probably referring to the suggestions given before. And we both agree that many are too strong. I did suggest that spells should be weaker than potions, this way there are pros and cons to each.
If some annoying kid from 50 blocks away casts at you, and let's say they are without armor as this discussion has mentioned, then you, presumably armed and armored, could attack them in whatever way you want, spells not required. The spells could, and probably should be just as effective as bows, with the same range, but probably less damage, considering the lack of required ammunition. If this were the case, any problem you have with a mage, you would also have with an archer.
Spells that are obviously more damaging would be far more limited in range than others, and maybe backfire like potions too.
Since enchantments go on swords, and can't be used unless they are on swords, they don't constitute their own form of attack. It'd be difficult to use Sharpness V without a sword to put it on. As for potions, they are difficult to use without backfiring on the user, just as I said previously.
What about armor, bows, shovels, axes and fishing rods?
You called it "this beefy magic", probably referring to the suggestions given before. And we both agree that many are too strong. I did suggest that spells should be weaker than potions, this way there are pros and cons to each.
Beefy refers to how overpowered these spells are. If these spells are stronger than potions, they're overpowered, but if they're weaker than potions, you might as well just stick with potions anyway. Either way, there's an issue.
If some annoying kid from 50 blocks away casts at you, and let's say they are without armor as this discussion has mentioned, then you, presumably armed and armored, could attack them in whatever way you want, spells not required. The spells could, and probably should be just as effective as bows, with the same range, but probably less damage, considering the lack of required ammunition. If this were the case, any problem you have with a mage, you would also have with an archer.
50 blocks is pretty far away. Armor or not, that is a VERY long range for a weapon. It's just too annoying and I can already see the hate players would spill on these forums if this kind of stuff was added. Remember how people acted when combat was changed, imagine how people will react going on a server and seeing almost unavoidable lightning bolts from like 20 players from all directions. Why in the christ would anyone want this in a Minecraft game?
In singleplayer, killing mobs (including bosses) would be way too easy. In multiplayer, you're getting sniped by obnoxious spells. It creates more problems than anything good. Even if you wear less armor, it doesn't always perfectly balance this out. This is a game with nearly infinite possibilities, so you know how exploited this is gonna be.
Spells that are obviously more damaging would be far more limited in range than others, and maybe backfire like potions too.
Then these spells would just be awkward copypastas of potions.
Yes, enchantments can be used on things other than swords, but a shovel isn't as useful in a fight, even with Efficiency V.
I'm thinking that potions should be stronger, but the player is limited in how many they can carry, and how many they can have equipped. Spells would be weaker, but the only limit would be in xp/magic. Potions could also affect multiple targets, and magic could be limited to one target, unless it is one that can't be used at range.
Any problem you have with spells, you'd have with bows and arrows, as long as the system works as I described, where there is a reasonable defined range limit, a required cooldown, (both things found in bows, the latter being draw speed) and a cost in xp/magic.
Yes, enchantments can be used on things other than swords, but a shovel isn't as useful in a fight, even with Efficiency V.
You said "Since enchantments go on swords, and can't be used unless they are on swords". You're making it sound like there's no other useful enchantment in existence except swords and Efficiency V. Again, you seem to not be getting the points I'm making.
I'm thinking that potions should be stronger, but the player is limited in how many they can carry, and how many they can have equipped. Spells would be weaker, but the only limit would be in xp/magic. Potions could also affect multiple targets, and magic could be limited to one target, unless it is one that can't be used at range.
Potion carrying is limited because carrying 10 Strength II potions in one slot is inarguably overpowered. Just carrying one or two and spamming critical hits with an iron sword alone while under its effects is still enough turn you into a gorilla powerhouse. Do we really need to throw awkward armor removing and magic on top of that? It's just filler material. Your idea here is still a "Less X, but more Y" setup. You also never explained why this magic needs to exist beyond "having to use swords for a long time" or "people want this".
Any problem you have with spells, you'd have with bows and arrows, as long as the system works as I described, where there is a reasonable defined range limit, a required cooldown, (both things found in bows, the latter being draw speed) and a cost in xp/magic.
I highly, highly, highly recommend you give this guide a read. It goes over extremely common traps that suggestions fall into. You can add as much tweaks and cooldowns as you want, but the weapons/potions/enchantments we have already cover everything we need. What new thing is magic adding? It's still just cheaply copypasting helpful things already in the game.
It's like adding yet another cat mob that "moves 10% slower but has +10% creeper scaring range!" That's not interesting or original, it's just re-implementing Ocelots but with tiny tweaks and a mildly different coat of paint. We already have almost-copycat weapons anyway (like crossbows) so this magic is just extra redundancy.
The armor removing thing just makes this worse. I'm not taking off my enchanted diamond armor just to get some awkwardly balanced spell to work correctly. I'm fully armored and have all the beefy weapons I need. Making this magic - again - just weird fluff material slapped in the game for the sake of being slapped in the game.
Our subject here is combat and the potential for magic to be added. Yes, there are other enchantments. You kept dwelling on that there are "swords and enchantments and potions", but I was simply pointing out that, in terms of weapons specifically, you can't wield an enchantment without a sword. So, it's just a sword, with some better stats, and made shiny.
So, you've pointed out that having access to some potion effects as spells could, and probably would, be op. Ok, so, what if they just... weren't made into spells? Or, those spells require you to be immobilized for a short while to cast? In the case of Strength II that you mentioned, I'll mention once more that spells probably shouldn't have the full effect of potions. So, for a Strength I level spell, as long as the spell is being cast, the player has to stop moving for the duration of the casting, say 3 seconds. And, because of the power of such a spell, they would have a significant spell cooldown time, say 10 seconds, so that no other spells can be cast. Now, their increased damage is offset by their momentary vulnerability, their lack of armor, and their inability to cast any spells for a short while.
If you prefer sword over sorcery, that is your choice. Heck, I think it would be interesting if, in the case it were added, that there could be a Magic Protection enchantment. Then, you could crush all the annoying noob images you want in your bad*ss anti-mage armor.
You've neen using the argument that the game doesn't need combat magic, but I've pointed out all the features that this game obviously didn't need. At this point, the game doesn't actually need anything.
But, the devs are obviously focused on providing variety to gameplay as every update brings new features. This is just one potential feature they could add.
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I didn't read everyone's comment so far, so apologize if I happen to copy any ideas.
Here's an idea I just had. Use a piece of paper at an enchanting table and it turns into a scroll for the spell. Similar to standard enchanting, spells available are random and may have multiple effects (and maybe slight drawbacks), and stronger effects require a higher level and bookshelf setup. Also as an addendum to current enchanting, different materials can be used for different items and spell scrolls (with likely some overlap somewhere). Each cast of a scroll's spell (with use) costs durability, which I would think is probably balanced around 75 or less uses.
Sounds similar to an idea I made a thread about where we can just craft wands and staves out of materials already in the game, then have to enchant them. The xp used to charge it would effectively be the durability. Run out of charge/durability, then you have to recharge it at an enchanting table.
Our subject here is combat and the potential for magic to be added. Yes, there are other enchantments. You kept dwelling on that there are "swords and enchantments and potions", but I was simply pointing out that, in terms of weapons specifically, you can't wield an enchantment without a sword. So, it's just a sword, with some better stats, and made shiny.
That's kind of an oversimplified way of putting it, but yeah, sure.
So, you've pointed out that having access to some potion effects as spells could, and probably would, be op.
Actually my point was that having these overpowered spells AND the powerful stuff we have now would be too much.
Ok, so, what if they just... weren't made into spells? Or, those spells require you to be immobilized for a short while to cast?
It just feels like you're trying to put Scooby-Doo bandaids on an amputation. Not that I'm saying this idea is bad as an amputation, but you keep adding these little stat/balance changes when it still doesn't really save the idea. It doesn't matter, shocking and blinding someone from 50 blocks away is still unbalanced. And it's still annoying as christ in multiplayer. This is just one of those ideas that bring more trouble than they're worth. Despite the fact that the game already has ideas like that, but still, do we want more of that?
You also still dodged my question, why is adding this magic so important aside from "variety" and "people like it"?
In the case of Strength II that you mentioned, I'll mention once more that spells probably shouldn't have the full effect of potions. So, for a Strength I level spell, as long as the spell is being cast, the player has to stop moving for the duration of the casting, say 3 seconds. And, because of the power of such a spell, they would have a significant spell cooldown time, say 10 seconds, so that no other spells can be cast. Now, their increased damage is offset by their momentary vulnerability, their lack of armor, and their inability to cast any spells for a short while.
If it doesn't have the full effect of potions, then... why not just stick with the potions? We're just duplicating what we have into spells and adding little tweaks to them. I'm big enough to admit that the effort you're putting in to add balance isn't exactly terrible, but like I said before, it still doesn't "save" the idea and it doesn't sound original.
If I can slam a Strength potion, whip out my enchanted iron sword and kill a few mobs in a matter of seconds while I'm iron-armored up, I don't really need to waste time on these spells nor removing my own useful armor just to add to the spells effects. That's why I'm calling this idea "extra fluff".
If you prefer sword over sorcery, that is your choice. Heck, I think it would be interesting if, in the case it were added, that there could be a Magic Protection enchantment. Then, you could crush all the annoying noob images you want in your bad*ss anti-mage armor.
Again dude, it's not just about what I "prefer", but about what is even worth the effort in adding.
You've neen using the argument that the game doesn't need combat magic, but I've pointed out all the features that this game obviously didn't need. At this point, the game doesn't actually need anything.
That doesn't stop things being more important and useful than others. So far, this whole magic thing has been "fixed" with stat tweaks.
But, the devs are obviously focused on providing variety to gameplay as every update brings new features. This is just one potential feature they could add.
The amount of people on this forum that use the whole "variety" thing often use it incorrectly. Such as "variety is duh sp1ce of liiife, so let's add 30 more creepers!!" or "les add 4 more neeewwww dimensionzzz" which are just lame copy dimensions of what we have. Goes to show "more" does not automatically equal "good".
I already mentioned multiple times about not "shocking and blinding someone from 50 blocks away". In case you missed it, the range should be much shorter. About 20 blocks or so I think would be good. Archery would have better range by a few blocks this way.
Reasons for more magic besides the whole new variety of approaches made possible to combat (besides just spamming a sword, shooting arrows, and letting potions blow up in our pixelated faces) is the potential for the game to explore more of the fantasy themes that the game already has.
This would allow you to do more than what everyone else is doing, and has been doing, for over a decade: wearing the same armors, and spamming the same swords.
Someone might favor magic over potions because they have more range, are easier to aim, require less resources, and won't run out as long as you have xp/magic. But, that same person might want to use potions to effect multiple targets, and have a greater effect on them, but have more risk of it backfiring. An allegory could be magic being like a one-handed sword, it's quicker, less vulnerable, but does less damage, while potions are like two-handed swords, they take some more strategy, have more risk to them, but do more damage.
A big problem with the idea of just using potions as a means to attack is how limited that is. With just nine equipped inventory slots, that's nine possible potions useable in a fight. Unless they are all the highest tier potions and you're lucky, it's not going to go well. Things only get worse if you try keeping even just one health potion equipped, and then split the other 8 slots between potions for living mobs and undead mobs.
And now, let's say you are lucky, and you managed to use just 4 potions in a fight. That's going to happen for every single fight that follows. You'll have to pause between every single fight just to re-equip. And hopefully you equip the right ones too. Poison against zombies? Oof, sorry, go run away and comeback. Ope, is that a spider? Those healing potions you used against the zombies aren't going help much.
Now, inevitably, you'll eventually have to use that health potion too, and if you ever need another one, you'll have two choices. Either run away, again, and equip one, and hope something doesn't just come around the corner and kill you. Or pause while you try to scram to get another one, and, if you're as lucky as before, exit your inventory to find that you're surrounded.
I agree with you, more is not always good, so I think any spells should be limited in number and in strength.
I already mentioned multiple times about not "shocking and blinding someone from 50 blocks away". In case you missed it, the range should be much shorter. About 20 blocks or so I think would be good. Archery would have better range by a few blocks this way.
Duuuude, you need to take a step back and see what's going on here. Now we're just going in pointless circles. You can add as much tweaks as you want but that doesn't mean you're gonna save the core idea. Okay, so now the range is reduced to the point where archery has better range? Theeeeeeen why not just stick with an enchanted bow then? And/or splash potions (which I know has less range, but that's what makes them balanced).
No shade, but it's starting to look like you love this idea so much, that you just want it added no matter how powerful/weak it is. In the end, you just want the ability to say "the game has magic!"
Reasons for more magic besides the whole new variety of approaches made possible to combat (besides just spamming a sword, shooting arrows, and letting potions blow up in our pixelated faces) is the potential for the game to explore more of the fantasy themes that the game already has.
That doesn't save this idea from being unbalanced or being filler material. Most of what you explained is pretty opinion based/subjective. The idea sounds amazing on paper, but not so much in execution.
This would allow you to do more than what everyone else is doing, and has been doing, for over a decade: wearing the same armors, and spamming the same swords.
Arguments like that aren't very strong for a game like this. Almost every dopey suggester that suggested crappy guns has used that argument. "I'm soo00oo tired of bows n arrows so les cure the boredom with gunsss!!!!" Greeeaatt... Not only were these guns ideas absolutely overpowered and unfitting, but what happens when the guns get boring? Do we add rocket launchers now? Just because something is new and breaks up the monotony of what's already there still doesn't make the idea good. It still has to be balanced, and it still can't be a crappy copypasta of what we already have otherwise the idea is just cheap.
Someone might favor magic over potions because they have more range, are easier to aim, require less resources, and won't run out as long as you have xp/magic. But, that same person might want to use potions to effect multiple targets, and have a greater effect on them, but have more risk of it backfiring. An allegory could be magic being like a one-handed sword, it's quicker, less vulnerable, but does less damage, while potions are like two-handed swords, they take some more strategy, have more risk to them, but do more damage.
This magic just sounds like another ranged attack but just more powerful. Removing much needed armor doesn't make the idea sound better, because I'm NOT gonna keep taking stuff off and on just to cast some unnecessary spells when I can arrow spam/bash a mob to death in seconds. Having to stand still doesn't change much if I can royally mess something up with one spell. And reducing the range helps, but the job of a few arrows will work just fine - with or without potions.
A big problem with the idea of just using potions as a means to attack is how limited that is. With just nine equipped inventory slots, that's nine possible potions useable in a fight. Unless they are all the highest tier potions and you're lucky, it's not going to go well. Things only get worse if you try keeping even just one health potion equipped, and then split the other 8 slots between potions for living mobs and undead mobs.
This is a pretty subjective argument. Potions are the way they are because... balance. It's really not complicated to kill something in this game with or without potions. Potions just give an extra edge. No, potions don't need to be the highest tier and you don't need to be lucky. You just need to know how and when to use them. If undead and living mobs are close together, then maybe don't bother with throwing potions at them. Do something else instead. I mean, this IS a game where you can easily barricade yourself with blocks at any moment. One regen potion and one strength potion and that alone turns you into a tank if you know how to play.
And now, let's say you are lucky, and you managed to use just 4 potions in a fight. That's going to happen for every single fight that follows. You'll have to pause between every single fight just to re-equip. And hopefully you equip the right ones too. Poison against zombies? Oof, sorry, go run away and comeback. Ope, is that a spider? Those healing potions you used against the zombies aren't going help much.
Like I said before. Change your strategy. You don't need to be throwing potions at everything. Why not just use 1-2 helpful ones on yourself? The possibilities are endless in a game like this.
Now, inevitably, you'll eventually have to use that health potion too, and if you ever need another one, you'll have two choices. Either run away, again, and equip one, and hope something doesn't just come around the corner and kill you. Or pause while you try to scram to get another one, and, if you're as lucky as before, exit your inventory to find that you're surrounded.
Potions or not, you should probably prepare yourself as best as you can. Even without this magic, trouble can come in any form.
Thing is, if magic would be so op, then why does it work in other games without being op? Because there is a balance that is found.
My only reasoning for lowering the range so much for spells was so that they would be medium range dealing medium damage, compared to bows doing less damage at long range, and swords with the most damage but at close range. Thus, it would fill this middle area. Now, at 20 blocks, maybethats a bit too short, considering projectile speed and area of effect.
Simply put, I don't think it is as impossible as you make it out to be.
Thing is, if magic would be so op, then why does it work in other games without being op? Because there is a balance that is found.
headgames, honestly man. I'm not trying to be mean in any way, but that is a super invalid argument. Okay, so if magic works just fine in a completely different game, it'll work here..? A few of the arguments you brought up were on par, but this one is the most "not working" one. Different games can lean on different mechanics better than other games. Minecraft is a very unique game, so comparing it to other games usually fails hard.
My only reasoning for lowering the range so much for spells was so that they would be medium range dealing medium damage, compared to bows doing less damage at long range, and swords with the most damage but at close range. Thus, it would fill this middle area. Now, at 20 blocks, maybethats a bit too short, considering projectile speed and area of effect.
Could magic work in Minecraft? Maybe, but not in this clichéd way, and not in a way that's unbalanced and just copies what the game already gives us. See, this is why I love the hunger bar, because it doesn't just add a little layer of difficulty, but it creates more ideas. It paved the way for more foods and different fun ways we can grow/create them. It adds a fresh, original experience without truly ruining things.
Magic is just hurting things farther away with a different coat of paint. It's executed differently and would look cool sure, but it's still adding damage and potion effects to things. I believe an idea should be more original and offer just a bit more than that.
Alright, so, what is a way that you think magic could work in the game. To be honest, might be the best to come up with a magic system, considering your harsh perspective.
I don't want magic in the game, so I'm not gonna try and "fix" a theoretical system that I don't think belongs in the game at all. There's no reason for that "harsh perspective" thing. You might want to learn that negative reception doesn't always equal "harsh". I stated all my reasons, I didn't just post "everyone who agrees with this idea is dumb and idea iz bad!" without stating my case. I don't know what you thought I meant when I said "Can magic work in Minecraft? Maybe."
Seriously, again, I highly suggest you read this guide. Take it with a grain of salt though, there's a lot of in-your-face satire in there, but it covers a plethora of common mistakes and suggestion flaws beautifully. If you plan on sticking around on this forum and making suggestions yourself, reading that is almost a necessity. The woman who wrote that guide I think is a game dev herself so she has the proper perspective and that sort of thing.
I read the guidelines, and considering you seem good intentioned, I'm just going to with what I thought was you just bashing the idea towards the beginning was actually just you not being gentle about your dislike of the idea (and me being admittedly a defensive person).
For the "less x, more y" subject you've been bringing up, that was as a way to keep it from being op as you worried it would be. Hence my analogy of comparing magic and swords to one handed and two handed swords, respectively. Otherwise, you're right, the dps of one approach would outdo all other strategies, and the others would become a waste of time in comparison.
For your worry that magic would just be repackaged potions, for some reason I only just now remembered I came up with ideas (originally for craftable wands and staves) that would be pretty different.
Examples were pacifying undead, and higher level casts getting them to follow and attack for you, but would have a hard limit of 3 at a time. Another was a whatever block was casted upon would give off a redstone signal, allowing for redstone contraptions to be activated without the need for obvious levers or buttons, making hidden piston doors actually hidden.
As much as I would like to see more magic in the game, I don't think it will ever happen. Magic mods have been around for quite some time and some mods have gotten a lot of attention, though classic magic mods like Equivalent Exchange and Thaumcraft aren't really used as much or have been abandoned by their original creators, a lot of players still care about these mods, going as far as to remake Equivalent Exchange. Sadly Thaumcraft, one of my favorite mods, might never come back. Anyways my point is, I don't think magic will ever be put into the game, for multiple reasons. It wouldn't sit well with veterans, people might consider stop using ranged weapons like bows and crossbows and what would it really add to the game? Yeah, it would be cool, but is it really necessary? Thaumcraft added a furnace, endgame items, new armors, tools, and materials. If Thaumcraft added only the wands and nothing else, it wouldn't have gotten much attention. If they do add magic to Minecraft it would have to be something other than just wands for no specific reason. Like crafting magic-infused items for example. Again, in Thaumcraft, wands weren't just used for attacking others, they were used for crafting, building, and for tinkering with your machines. They had a purpose other than just for combat.
Sorry if this post is really long, I've had this idea rattling in my head for a while now.
No worries, and I get what you mean. Maybe the rarity of the items required could keep it from being some meta.
For example, requiring an item that only appears a couple of times in every world, and once crafted, must be enchanted for the desired power, requiring enough levels of xp that it can'tbe used constantly. This would force players to really think about what ability they want, and also conserve using it so it isn't game breaking.
There's different directions it could be taken, but keeping in mind what you pointed out, if it were to be done, it might be better if it weren't something the player has constant access to.
And, your mention of magic infused items might be a way for this. They could be similar to treasure enchantments in rarity, and use xp for every use. This would mean it isn't always something that is used for combat too.
Edit: this just crossed my mind while mowing, of all times. There could a new enemy, or multiple, which take extra damage from magic attacks, allowing for there to be more purpose. They could be in some more magically themed biome.
That's a nice idea with staves, but I wanted to go for a sort of fluid, dynamic angle with this. Think of it as a reward for killing the evoker - spellcraft.
Howabout a critical (and re-usable) ingredient to spellcraft is found from killing an Evoker. Sort of like punching a tree to get a crafting table, you have to kill an Evoker to get a magic spell table.
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I want ocean content(thanks Möjang!), nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).
Now I'm starting to think you're just skimming through my posts. I said magic wasn't needed because we have swords, and ranged weapons and enchantmants and potions. If enchantments and potions weren't in the game, I'd maybe be on board with this idea. The things I've listed can overpower mobs (and players) easily, so why throw this beefy magic on top of that? See the where the unbalanced part comes to play?
You just pulled out yet another invalid argument: "if you don't like, don't use it!" Is that gonna stop some kid in multiplayer from hitting me 50 blocks away with some annoying electric spell? Nope.
They backfire if you don't throw them carefully. That's a pretty balanced tradeoff for splash potions, considering how horrendously powerful some of them can be.
Armor or not, being able to hit some 50 blocks away just turns the player into friggin' Zeus. These things would be unholy annoying in multiplayer.
At this point in the suggestion, this is starting to sound like a "Less X, but more Y" suggestion. Even if the magic was more balanced out, being able to electrocute or straight blind things from distance just adds more horror to balance. In other words, it opens the door for more balance problems in the long run.
Since enchantments go on swords, and can't be used unless they are on swords, they don't constitute their own form of attack. It'd be difficult to use Sharpness V without a sword to put it on. As for potions, they are difficult to use without backfiring on the user, just as I said previously.
You called it "this beefy magic", probably referring to the suggestions given before. And we both agree that many are too strong. I did suggest that spells should be weaker than potions, this way there are pros and cons to each.
If some annoying kid from 50 blocks away casts at you, and let's say they are without armor as this discussion has mentioned, then you, presumably armed and armored, could attack them in whatever way you want, spells not required. The spells could, and probably should be just as effective as bows, with the same range, but probably less damage, considering the lack of required ammunition. If this were the case, any problem you have with a mage, you would also have with an archer.
Spells that are obviously more damaging would be far more limited in range than others, and maybe backfire like potions too.
What about armor, bows, shovels, axes and fishing rods?
Beefy refers to how overpowered these spells are. If these spells are stronger than potions, they're overpowered, but if they're weaker than potions, you might as well just stick with potions anyway. Either way, there's an issue.
50 blocks is pretty far away. Armor or not, that is a VERY long range for a weapon. It's just too annoying and I can already see the hate players would spill on these forums if this kind of stuff was added. Remember how people acted when combat was changed, imagine how people will react going on a server and seeing almost unavoidable lightning bolts from like 20 players from all directions. Why in the christ would anyone want this in a Minecraft game?
In singleplayer, killing mobs (including bosses) would be way too easy. In multiplayer, you're getting sniped by obnoxious spells. It creates more problems than anything good. Even if you wear less armor, it doesn't always perfectly balance this out. This is a game with nearly infinite possibilities, so you know how exploited this is gonna be.
Then these spells would just be awkward copypastas of potions.
Yes, enchantments can be used on things other than swords, but a shovel isn't as useful in a fight, even with Efficiency V.
I'm thinking that potions should be stronger, but the player is limited in how many they can carry, and how many they can have equipped. Spells would be weaker, but the only limit would be in xp/magic. Potions could also affect multiple targets, and magic could be limited to one target, unless it is one that can't be used at range.
Any problem you have with spells, you'd have with bows and arrows, as long as the system works as I described, where there is a reasonable defined range limit, a required cooldown, (both things found in bows, the latter being draw speed) and a cost in xp/magic.
You said "Since enchantments go on swords, and can't be used unless they are on swords". You're making it sound like there's no other useful enchantment in existence except swords and Efficiency V. Again, you seem to not be getting the points I'm making.
Potion carrying is limited because carrying 10 Strength II potions in one slot is inarguably overpowered. Just carrying one or two and spamming critical hits with an iron sword alone while under its effects is still enough turn you into a gorilla powerhouse. Do we really need to throw awkward armor removing and magic on top of that? It's just filler material. Your idea here is still a "Less X, but more Y" setup. You also never explained why this magic needs to exist beyond "having to use swords for a long time" or "people want this".
I highly, highly, highly recommend you give this guide a read. It goes over extremely common traps that suggestions fall into. You can add as much tweaks and cooldowns as you want, but the weapons/potions/enchantments we have already cover everything we need. What new thing is magic adding? It's still just cheaply copypasting helpful things already in the game.
It's like adding yet another cat mob that "moves 10% slower but has +10% creeper scaring range!" That's not interesting or original, it's just re-implementing Ocelots but with tiny tweaks and a mildly different coat of paint. We already have almost-copycat weapons anyway (like crossbows) so this magic is just extra redundancy.
The armor removing thing just makes this worse. I'm not taking off my enchanted diamond armor just to get some awkwardly balanced spell to work correctly. I'm fully armored and have all the beefy weapons I need. Making this magic - again - just weird fluff material slapped in the game for the sake of being slapped in the game.
Our subject here is combat and the potential for magic to be added. Yes, there are other enchantments. You kept dwelling on that there are "swords and enchantments and potions", but I was simply pointing out that, in terms of weapons specifically, you can't wield an enchantment without a sword. So, it's just a sword, with some better stats, and made shiny.
So, you've pointed out that having access to some potion effects as spells could, and probably would, be op. Ok, so, what if they just... weren't made into spells? Or, those spells require you to be immobilized for a short while to cast? In the case of Strength II that you mentioned, I'll mention once more that spells probably shouldn't have the full effect of potions. So, for a Strength I level spell, as long as the spell is being cast, the player has to stop moving for the duration of the casting, say 3 seconds. And, because of the power of such a spell, they would have a significant spell cooldown time, say 10 seconds, so that no other spells can be cast. Now, their increased damage is offset by their momentary vulnerability, their lack of armor, and their inability to cast any spells for a short while.
If you prefer sword over sorcery, that is your choice. Heck, I think it would be interesting if, in the case it were added, that there could be a Magic Protection enchantment. Then, you could crush all the annoying noob images you want in your bad*ss anti-mage armor.
You've neen using the argument that the game doesn't need combat magic, but I've pointed out all the features that this game obviously didn't need. At this point, the game doesn't actually need anything.
But, the devs are obviously focused on providing variety to gameplay as every update brings new features. This is just one potential feature they could add.
I didn't read everyone's comment so far, so apologize if I happen to copy any ideas.
Here's an idea I just had. Use a piece of paper at an enchanting table and it turns into a scroll for the spell. Similar to standard enchanting, spells available are random and may have multiple effects (and maybe slight drawbacks), and stronger effects require a higher level and bookshelf setup. Also as an addendum to current enchanting, different materials can be used for different items and spell scrolls (with likely some overlap somewhere). Each cast of a scroll's spell (with use) costs durability, which I would think is probably balanced around 75 or less uses.
Sounds similar to an idea I made a thread about where we can just craft wands and staves out of materials already in the game, then have to enchant them. The xp used to charge it would effectively be the durability. Run out of charge/durability, then you have to recharge it at an enchanting table.
That's kind of an oversimplified way of putting it, but yeah, sure.
Actually my point was that having these overpowered spells AND the powerful stuff we have now would be too much.
It just feels like you're trying to put Scooby-Doo bandaids on an amputation. Not that I'm saying this idea is bad as an amputation, but you keep adding these little stat/balance changes when it still doesn't really save the idea. It doesn't matter, shocking and blinding someone from 50 blocks away is still unbalanced. And it's still annoying as christ in multiplayer. This is just one of those ideas that bring more trouble than they're worth. Despite the fact that the game already has ideas like that, but still, do we want more of that?
You also still dodged my question, why is adding this magic so important aside from "variety" and "people like it"?
If it doesn't have the full effect of potions, then... why not just stick with the potions? We're just duplicating what we have into spells and adding little tweaks to them. I'm big enough to admit that the effort you're putting in to add balance isn't exactly terrible, but like I said before, it still doesn't "save" the idea and it doesn't sound original.
If I can slam a Strength potion, whip out my enchanted iron sword and kill a few mobs in a matter of seconds while I'm iron-armored up, I don't really need to waste time on these spells nor removing my own useful armor just to add to the spells effects. That's why I'm calling this idea "extra fluff".
Again dude, it's not just about what I "prefer", but about what is even worth the effort in adding.
That doesn't stop things being more important and useful than others. So far, this whole magic thing has been "fixed" with stat tweaks.
The amount of people on this forum that use the whole "variety" thing often use it incorrectly. Such as "variety is duh sp1ce of liiife, so let's add 30 more creepers!!" or "les add 4 more neeewwww dimensionzzz" which are just lame copy dimensions of what we have. Goes to show "more" does not automatically equal "good".
I already mentioned multiple times about not "shocking and blinding someone from 50 blocks away". In case you missed it, the range should be much shorter. About 20 blocks or so I think would be good. Archery would have better range by a few blocks this way.
Reasons for more magic besides the whole new variety of approaches made possible to combat (besides just spamming a sword, shooting arrows, and letting potions blow up in our pixelated faces) is the potential for the game to explore more of the fantasy themes that the game already has.
This would allow you to do more than what everyone else is doing, and has been doing, for over a decade: wearing the same armors, and spamming the same swords.
Someone might favor magic over potions because they have more range, are easier to aim, require less resources, and won't run out as long as you have xp/magic. But, that same person might want to use potions to effect multiple targets, and have a greater effect on them, but have more risk of it backfiring. An allegory could be magic being like a one-handed sword, it's quicker, less vulnerable, but does less damage, while potions are like two-handed swords, they take some more strategy, have more risk to them, but do more damage.
A big problem with the idea of just using potions as a means to attack is how limited that is. With just nine equipped inventory slots, that's nine possible potions useable in a fight. Unless they are all the highest tier potions and you're lucky, it's not going to go well. Things only get worse if you try keeping even just one health potion equipped, and then split the other 8 slots between potions for living mobs and undead mobs.
And now, let's say you are lucky, and you managed to use just 4 potions in a fight. That's going to happen for every single fight that follows. You'll have to pause between every single fight just to re-equip. And hopefully you equip the right ones too. Poison against zombies? Oof, sorry, go run away and comeback. Ope, is that a spider? Those healing potions you used against the zombies aren't going help much.
Now, inevitably, you'll eventually have to use that health potion too, and if you ever need another one, you'll have two choices. Either run away, again, and equip one, and hope something doesn't just come around the corner and kill you. Or pause while you try to scram to get another one, and, if you're as lucky as before, exit your inventory to find that you're surrounded.
I agree with you, more is not always good, so I think any spells should be limited in number and in strength.
Duuuude, you need to take a step back and see what's going on here. Now we're just going in pointless circles. You can add as much tweaks as you want but that doesn't mean you're gonna save the core idea. Okay, so now the range is reduced to the point where archery has better range? Theeeeeeen why not just stick with an enchanted bow then? And/or splash potions (which I know has less range, but that's what makes them balanced).
No shade, but it's starting to look like you love this idea so much, that you just want it added no matter how powerful/weak it is. In the end, you just want the ability to say "the game has magic!"
That doesn't save this idea from being unbalanced or being filler material. Most of what you explained is pretty opinion based/subjective. The idea sounds amazing on paper, but not so much in execution.
Arguments like that aren't very strong for a game like this. Almost every dopey suggester that suggested crappy guns has used that argument. "I'm soo00oo tired of bows n arrows so les cure the boredom with gunsss!!!!" Greeeaatt... Not only were these guns ideas absolutely overpowered and unfitting, but what happens when the guns get boring? Do we add rocket launchers now? Just because something is new and breaks up the monotony of what's already there still doesn't make the idea good. It still has to be balanced, and it still can't be a crappy copypasta of what we already have otherwise the idea is just cheap.
This magic just sounds like another ranged attack but just more powerful. Removing much needed armor doesn't make the idea sound better, because I'm NOT gonna keep taking stuff off and on just to cast some unnecessary spells when I can arrow spam/bash a mob to death in seconds. Having to stand still doesn't change much if I can royally mess something up with one spell. And reducing the range helps, but the job of a few arrows will work just fine - with or without potions.
This is a pretty subjective argument. Potions are the way they are because... balance. It's really not complicated to kill something in this game with or without potions. Potions just give an extra edge. No, potions don't need to be the highest tier and you don't need to be lucky. You just need to know how and when to use them. If undead and living mobs are close together, then maybe don't bother with throwing potions at them. Do something else instead. I mean, this IS a game where you can easily barricade yourself with blocks at any moment. One regen potion and one strength potion and that alone turns you into a tank if you know how to play.
Like I said before. Change your strategy. You don't need to be throwing potions at everything. Why not just use 1-2 helpful ones on yourself? The possibilities are endless in a game like this.
Potions or not, you should probably prepare yourself as best as you can. Even without this magic, trouble can come in any form.
Thing is, if magic would be so op, then why does it work in other games without being op? Because there is a balance that is found.
My only reasoning for lowering the range so much for spells was so that they would be medium range dealing medium damage, compared to bows doing less damage at long range, and swords with the most damage but at close range. Thus, it would fill this middle area. Now, at 20 blocks, maybethats a bit too short, considering projectile speed and area of effect.
Simply put, I don't think it is as impossible as you make it out to be.
headgames, honestly man. I'm not trying to be mean in any way, but that is a super invalid argument. Okay, so if magic works just fine in a completely different game, it'll work here..? A few of the arguments you brought up were on par, but this one is the most "not working" one. Different games can lean on different mechanics better than other games. Minecraft is a very unique game, so comparing it to other games usually fails hard.
Could magic work in Minecraft? Maybe, but not in this clichéd way, and not in a way that's unbalanced and just copies what the game already gives us. See, this is why I love the hunger bar, because it doesn't just add a little layer of difficulty, but it creates more ideas. It paved the way for more foods and different fun ways we can grow/create them. It adds a fresh, original experience without truly ruining things.
Magic is just hurting things farther away with a different coat of paint. It's executed differently and would look cool sure, but it's still adding damage and potion effects to things. I believe an idea should be more original and offer just a bit more than that.
Alright, so, what is a way that you think magic could work in the game. To be honest, might be the best to come up with a magic system, considering your harsh perspective.
I don't want magic in the game, so I'm not gonna try and "fix" a theoretical system that I don't think belongs in the game at all. There's no reason for that "harsh perspective" thing. You might want to learn that negative reception doesn't always equal "harsh". I stated all my reasons, I didn't just post "everyone who agrees with this idea is dumb and idea iz bad!" without stating my case. I don't know what you thought I meant when I said "Can magic work in Minecraft? Maybe."
Seriously, again, I highly suggest you read this guide. Take it with a grain of salt though, there's a lot of in-your-face satire in there, but it covers a plethora of common mistakes and suggestion flaws beautifully. If you plan on sticking around on this forum and making suggestions yourself, reading that is almost a necessity. The woman who wrote that guide I think is a game dev herself so she has the proper perspective and that sort of thing.
I read the guidelines, and considering you seem good intentioned, I'm just going to with what I thought was you just bashing the idea towards the beginning was actually just you not being gentle about your dislike of the idea (and me being admittedly a defensive person).
For the "less x, more y" subject you've been bringing up, that was as a way to keep it from being op as you worried it would be. Hence my analogy of comparing magic and swords to one handed and two handed swords, respectively. Otherwise, you're right, the dps of one approach would outdo all other strategies, and the others would become a waste of time in comparison.
For your worry that magic would just be repackaged potions, for some reason I only just now remembered I came up with ideas (originally for craftable wands and staves) that would be pretty different.
Examples were pacifying undead, and higher level casts getting them to follow and attack for you, but would have a hard limit of 3 at a time. Another was a whatever block was casted upon would give off a redstone signal, allowing for redstone contraptions to be activated without the need for obvious levers or buttons, making hidden piston doors actually hidden.
As much as I would like to see more magic in the game, I don't think it will ever happen. Magic mods have been around for quite some time and some mods have gotten a lot of attention, though classic magic mods like Equivalent Exchange and Thaumcraft aren't really used as much or have been abandoned by their original creators, a lot of players still care about these mods, going as far as to remake Equivalent Exchange. Sadly Thaumcraft, one of my favorite mods, might never come back. Anyways my point is, I don't think magic will ever be put into the game, for multiple reasons. It wouldn't sit well with veterans, people might consider stop using ranged weapons like bows and crossbows and what would it really add to the game? Yeah, it would be cool, but is it really necessary? Thaumcraft added a furnace, endgame items, new armors, tools, and materials. If Thaumcraft added only the wands and nothing else, it wouldn't have gotten much attention. If they do add magic to Minecraft it would have to be something other than just wands for no specific reason. Like crafting magic-infused items for example. Again, in Thaumcraft, wands weren't just used for attacking others, they were used for crafting, building, and for tinkering with your machines. They had a purpose other than just for combat.
Sorry if this post is really long, I've had this idea rattling in my head for a while now.
No worries, and I get what you mean. Maybe the rarity of the items required could keep it from being some meta.
For example, requiring an item that only appears a couple of times in every world, and once crafted, must be enchanted for the desired power, requiring enough levels of xp that it can'tbe used constantly. This would force players to really think about what ability they want, and also conserve using it so it isn't game breaking.
There's different directions it could be taken, but keeping in mind what you pointed out, if it were to be done, it might be better if it weren't something the player has constant access to.
And, your mention of magic infused items might be a way for this. They could be similar to treasure enchantments in rarity, and use xp for every use. This would mean it isn't always something that is used for combat too.
Edit: this just crossed my mind while mowing, of all times. There could a new enemy, or multiple, which take extra damage from magic attacks, allowing for there to be more purpose. They could be in some more magically themed biome.
Howabout a critical (and re-usable) ingredient to spellcraft is found from killing an Evoker. Sort of like punching a tree to get a crafting table, you have to kill an Evoker to get a magic spell table.
I want
ocean content(thanks Möjang!),nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).The item could just be used to craft a wand/staff enchanter, along with some other rare items. It could then be used to recharge them with xp.