PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE YOU TL;DR THIS SUGGESTION.
This suggestion includes:
- A solution to allow users to block any resolution skins they want
- A system to greatly decrease memory and data usage
- A system to allow server owners to moderate skins, allow for realtime skin changing, and PREVENT SKIN STEALING!
- At the bottom of the list is HD and LD skins!
Thank you in advance for your consideration and feedback.
After a thorough analysis of preceding posts on the matter, I have decided to revive the HD skins argument with a comprehensive system. This post will be a synthesis of ideas from many earlier similar suggestions(as well as my own ideas) and should satisfy most, if not all of the concerns about this feature. This is NOT simply a restatement of information and is of a completely different calibre than its predecessors.
Flexible Resolutions
Currently, there is only one skin resolution, 64x64. Fine details like jewelry and facial features are hard to create well with this resolution. By allowing a wide range of resolutions, people of all creative backgrounds can take on whatever resolution they're comfortable with. In addition to high resolution skins, I also want there to be a low-def resolution at 32x32, because sometimes Minecraft is better with even bigger pixels.
Skin Handling
Currently, the skin handling system is crude and designed to handle small transactions of data. This system will be crushed by the advent of HD skins.
Things that must be implemented include:
1. Introduce a resolution blocking system: Essentially, create a menu that allows the user to block or enable certain skin resolutions. This would be a menu in the options with a list of 6 checkboxes(1 for each resolution). Unchecking the 32x32 box, for instance, would make people with a 32x32 skin look like your texture pack's default player unless they had a second skin that was supported. Reason: It allows both high res and low res favoring users to have their way while also allowing them to have a broad range of accepted skins
2. Create an additional, secondary skin slot: Implement a second skin slot in case a skin gets blocked by the resolution blocker. This prevents half your friends from looking like steve when you apply res-block. The first skin will take priority and be applied if both are supported.
3. Redundant skin handling (ten people use the same skin, instead of there being ten skins stored, associate the first skin with the others).
Reason: Some skins are used by thousands of players. By 'networking' identical skins between multiple users instead of treating them individually, a massive chunk of data usage is removed. In addition, servers should be able to set their own skin resolution limit.
Independent Skin System
Remove the skin server entirely and relay skins directly through the server to the users. Additionally, allow real time skin changing through the server(meaning instant skin swaps for roleplay!).The skin changing would work similarly to how texture packs work, with the primary skin being the first contender for being displayed, and a secondary skin slot for a different resolution, if desired.
A minecraft server would maintain its' own skin database that clears out skins that aren't used after 30 days at startup. This system can also enable servers to restrict skin sizes for certain users, allowing HD skins to be a donator perk, as well as controlling the skins of the users(I.E naked skins could be changed to a more modest skin, problem skinners can be banned from changing their skins, etc.). This system means you can have a catalog of skins, clothing, and uniforms, etc, on servers independant of eachother.
It evenly distributes the data and memory burden of skins through the userbase, enabling usage of skins when auth servers and skin servers are down and easing the burden on Mojang. In addition, it largely eliminates 'skin stealing' by isolating skins on a per - server basis, protecting the intellectual property of users.
In summary, the enhancements to the skin system would include:
- Better Actual redundant skin handling
- High scalability (lower tier PCs would be unaffected by the feature)
- Higher resolution skins, more creative freedom when creating skins
- Independence from skin servers meaning skins are always available.
- real time skin changing
- server specific skins
-one click, in game, skin changing.
-aesthetic flexibility
-Makes skins compatible with different texture pack resolutions, and allows you to prevent incompatible resolution skins from rendering.
However, some drawbacks include:
- An increase in database and server memory/data usage (partially corrected by the redundancy handler and high res disabler in server settings)
- Possible increase in skin loading time
- Potential lag (Which is why high res skins can be turned off)
Need some more convincing? Let's see these skins in their natural habitat and in vanilla minecraft.
Exhibit 1: Inuyasha(Cartoon theme)
Default textures
HD textures
Exhibit 2: Master chief(Deep shading)
Default textures
HD textures
Exhibit 3: Girls
Default textures
HD Textures
Now I wish to discuss some common counter-arguments
"It goes against the feel of minecraft, breaking immersion."
That is a very good point, assuming everyone uses 16x16 texture packs. Over the years, texture packs and HD texture packs have slowly been given native support and more and more depth in their abilities(I.E. block meshes). The users with higher end computers may be using intermacgod's realistic pack or one of the hd versions of sphax, or LB Photorealism or some amalgamation of the three. While their worlds will be vividly detailed... a quick press of f5 reminds you that you're an out of place, pixellated blob.
And a quote:
ont='times new roman', times]Trent:Minecraft to me is blocks not low res sprites. And low res being the point of the game? I thought the point of Minecraft was allowing players to be creative in a world full of angry green things that want to blow up your creations.
"People will feel obligated to spend hours on a skin"
I spent two weeks on my current vanilla minecraft skin. People will spend as much time as they think they need on their skin, regardless of how large the resolution is. The immersion argument is also relevant here. People may try to synthesize skin and texture pack, so this so-called obligation really depends on how they want to fit into the world and what their world looks like. There will be plenty of users that will continue using the standard resolution happily, and that's awesome too.
"I don't like HD stuff", "Minecraft is ugly in HD", "People will make ugly skins in HD", "Naked people in HD? No thanks!"
Unfortunately, one must discard personal preference when considering such things. We simply cannot evaluate what has yet to happen. In fact, if we were to look at pre-existing HD skins, we would see content that would indicate the opposite.A suggestion is something that petitions its own productivity and objective value in implementation. As for the nudity/nsfw argument... If it's in HD, that means the junk they draw on the skin doesn't have to go down to their knees or rise up to their chest to give you an idea of what it is. If anything, it's a public service, imo.
"It's useless! The skin system is good enough as-is."
The 'if it's not broken don't fix it' mindset is the reason we were stuck in the dark ages for so long. It does work, yes, but as much as you and I may love our 8-bit counterparts some people don't. I often get told " But the graphics are ####, man." when I suggest this game to other people. Although texture packs have solved half the problem, my friends still have solid grounds for their, albeit vain, objection to playing. While some existing users may not endorse this idea, it DOES have the possibility of finally lifting a long standing stigma against vanilla Minecraft, as well as inviting more skilled builders and artists to the community.
If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to reply so we can discuss it.
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I already covered that in my counterargument section. It'd be nice if the first person to reply didn't tl; Dr my thread(and forget to do the poll). :\
Also, what are your thoughts on the skin handling system I proposed?
I'll just paste the OP counterargument here. (also keep in mind you can opt out of seeing hd skins)
"It goes against the feel of minecraft, breaking immersion."That is a very good point, assuming everyone uses 16x16 texture packs. Over the years, texture packs and HD texture packs have slowly been given native support and more and more depth in their abilities(I.E. block meshes). The users with higher end computers may be using intermacgod's realistic pack or one of the hd versions of sphax, or LB Photorealism or some amalgamation of the three. While their worlds will be vividly detailed... a quick press of f5 reminds you that you're an out of place, pixellated blob.And a quote:Trent:Minecraft to me is blocks not low res sprites. And low res being the point of the game? I thought the point of Minecraft was allowing players to be creative in a world full of angry green things that want to blow up your creations.
I don't really like the idea of having a customizable skin resolution, since in a rendered environement, things start to look rather strange and unfitting when the size of the texels is very different. If this system would detect the resolution of the resource pack you're currently using and downscale the skin for that resolution, this is a different story though.
BTW: please change your max resolution of 1028x1028 to 1024x1024. 1028 pixels is horrible for performance in a real-time rendered environnement.
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@EnderCreeper168 So do texture packs, and HD texture packs are supported by vanilla Minecraft. Besides, once again, I have a solution to that in the OP as well...
However, should they not wish to see HD skins, as I'm sure some wouldn't, they should be able to disable rendering high-resolution skins. People with high-res skins could have a second, native-resolution skin that shows to those people and is sent to servers that have high res skins disabled. Thus, lag is only an issue if you choose to see high-res skins, though skins may take slightly longer to load due to back-and-forth between server and skin server in regards to whether or not the server 'wants' hd skins.
This 'confrontation' or 'change' will be completely optional, just like the option to not use hd skins yourself.
Please fully read the OP if you wish to identify flaws in my suggestion.
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@ben_g0 Isn't that the case right now? I normally use a 128x128 texture pack and, as I said in the OP...
The users with higher end computers may be using intermacgod's realistic pack or one of the hd versions of sphax, or LB Photorealism or some amalgamation of the three. While their worlds will be vividly detailed... a quick press of f5 reminds you that you're an out of place, pixellated blob. Most people that use texture packs, I'd like to think, use 32x32 texture packs, and, well, even at that point the difference in resolution between a skin that's 256x256 and a texture pack that's 32x32 isn't terribly noticeable. As it stands now, though, we're all pixellated blobs in the eyes of users with HD texture packs. The goal is to make the "blobbiness" less of a problem for HD users. Currently, my proposed system only has two skins that a person would be able to upload. Their custom sized skin, and a native sized, "default" resolution skin. Generally speaking, one would only need to select between one or the other when considering whether or not to render skins because of the lack of noticeability at a certain point.
While I think your idea is good, I feel that uploading any more than 2 HD skins would simply consume way too much data and take far too much work for the user to do.
The difference in resolution between players and an HD textured world does look rather bad indeed, but much more people play on default or an other 16x16 pack instead of an HD pack (regardless of having a high-end or low-end PC, as HD textures barely reduce framerate but only increase the startup time). And when you use an HD pack, then there's still the issue that there are many different resolutions of HD packs, basically every power of 2 from 32x32 to 512x512 (larger should also be possible, but 512x512 is the largest resolution I've seen so far). So when you're using an HD pack, you'll almost always face differences in resolution, unless when the resolution of the texture pack is detected and the skins are automatically upscaled or downscaled to make the resolution fit better.
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@ben_g0 Your reply holds merit, but that's unavoidable unless every player makes six skins, which is unrealistic to expect too. If you have a 128x128 texture pack and someone else has a skin that's 512x512 pixels(a 256x256 equivalent texel size), there really isn't THAT MUCH of a difference, you know? The idea of this suggestion is to decrease the contrast between player and environment, and, as you may already know, the HD aspect of Minecraft was significant enough for mojang to give native support for HD texture packs. I've seen what scaling can do to a player skin, and it's not pretty so I'd like to avoid that if at all possible.
I'll try to post more pictures when I can. HD skins are plentiful so getting the material shouldn't be a problem.
You do know that you can easily generate copies of a different resolution, right? Downscaling is the easiest, though it might loose some details, and upscaling can also look pretty good when it's done with a clever algorithm, though it may make the skin look more cartoonish than intended (or blurry when you use a simple algorithm). But in any way, it doesn't have to rely on the player making copies of every resolution of the skin, while generating a copy of the skin scaled to the desired resolution should always produce a texture that fits in better than having a skin of a completely different resolution as the pack you're using.
And in the example you posted, the 512x512 skin would be scaled to half the resolution (in the same way as you can shrink an image in word or paint, probably done client-side) to produce a 256x256 texture that'll fit in the texture pack you're using. The result will be slightly less detailed than the original skin, but the resolution should be the same as our pack.
BTW: many of you might not know how an upscaled image looks, so here's an example: The top part is an image that's been upscaled 2x using nearest-neighbor interpolation, which basically means the pixels themselves are enlarged 2x. The bottom part is upscaled using a smarter algorithm. It's result looks a lot more HD than the original version, though if you look closely you'll see that it works very well on some parts but rather poor at other parts. The upscaling algorithm I've used is meant to be run in real-time (so it's made to be fast more than to look good), so it should be possible to get a much better result when the files are pregenerated.
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span>You do know that you can easily generate copies of a different resolution, right? Downscaling is the easiest, though it might loose some details, and upscaling can also look pretty good when it's done with a clever algorithm, though it may make the skin look more cartoonish than intended (or blurry when you use a simple algorithm). But in any way, it doesn't have to rely on the player making copies of every resolution of the skin, while generating a copy of the skin scaled to the desired resolution should always produce a texture that fits in better than having a skin of a completely different resolution as the pack you're using.
I do know and have seen it in action. :\ Downsizing's not pretty when you have this to work with:
This piece of armor here contains a symbol that loses all meaning if it is interpolated to be higher or lower resolution. It is the thunderbird; an important symbol for many native american tribes that has distinct wings that always feature right angles, in a 3-stepped staircase pattern along the bottoms of the wings. Your method of upscaling, while intriguing, would remove or alter key details in the process of this 'translation', unfortunately depleting some of the skin's symbolic and artistic integrity. The same goes for downscaling.
However, I don't quite see the relevance of exact resolution matching, still... Compare these two images:
Whether or not a skin 'fits in' is, in part, situational. In the temple depicted with the default texture pack, the high-res inuyasha is far more at home than the hot pink, but low res astronaut.
I don't think the pink astronaut really tells something about resolution, but it does make a point that I kinda forgot about: the drawing style. Minecraft's drawing stile is simple pixel arts with nearly no large areas of exactely the same colour. The top image matches the simple pixely style with not much large surfaces of exactely the same colour, while the pink astronaut clearly has a different drawing style. This is a problem in all resolutions though, and since there are lots of different texture packs with lots of different drawing styles, it's nearly impossible to make skins that fit in all of those drawing styles.
While I do agree that a well-drawn skin at a higher resolution as the one you've shown in the post above this one can look good in the default Minecraft graphics, I'd still prefer to at least have an option to make the skins adjust to the resolution of the texture pack you're using. I just don't want to see realistic HD skins when playing on the default graphics.
EDIT: could you post an image of that same HD skin you used in your previous post, but with a zombie and/or a player with a normal skin next to it? It's possible that it'll fit in less when there's more than just the environement to compare it with.
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As I said twice before, each user(that wishes to use HD skins) will have two skins uploaded, total. A high resolution skin and a default resolution skin. I'll quote where I said it in the OP.
People with high-res skins could have a second, native-resolution skin that shows to those people and is sent to servers that have high res skins disabled.
I'll get the pictures done soon. Might take a couple hours because I'm a tad busy right now though.
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I got six pictures, with 3 pairs of the best quality high res and low res counterparts I could find in a high resolution and low resolution environment... But not after my skin mod glitched out.
Third party HD skin solutions are very glitchy sometimes...
Exhibit 1: Inuyasha(Cartoon theme)
Default textures
HD textures
Exhibit 2: Master chief(Deep shading)
Default textures
HD textures
Exhibit 3: Girls
Default textures
HD Textures
The images still show the high def skins as palatable despite being higher resolution. It may be that the forced conformity to a general blocky shape is to blame. The aesthetic is always unified by right angles along textured surfaces, making the resolution more noticeable, but not necessarily novel compared to any landscape in the game.
EDIT: All those skins were 1024x512, three 2's higher resolution than the texturepack.
This would be and awesome idea! Is there an option in this idea that would allow one to to have 5 skins at a different resolution?
64x64 skin A
128x128 skin B
so on
If so, there could be an option for A player to have all players at "X" resolution, or set it to default to whatever the current user is wearing by what they preferred.
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@littleman2 The difference in resolution isn't that noticeable. All the examples I posted were 4x the texel density than the texture pack, and I forgot all about that until I checked the skin resolutions. xD
This suggestion is on Reddit HERE!
PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE YOU TL;DR THIS SUGGESTION.
This suggestion includes:
- A solution to allow users to block any resolution skins they want
- A system to greatly decrease memory and data usage
- A system to allow server owners to moderate skins, allow for realtime skin changing, and PREVENT SKIN STEALING!
- At the bottom of the list is HD and LD skins!
Thank you in advance for your consideration and feedback.
After a thorough analysis of preceding posts on the matter, I have decided to revive the HD skins argument with a comprehensive system. This post will be a synthesis of ideas from many earlier similar suggestions(as well as my own ideas) and should satisfy most, if not all of the concerns about this feature. This is NOT simply a restatement of information and is of a completely different calibre than its predecessors.
Flexible Resolutions
Currently, there is only one skin resolution, 64x64. Fine details like jewelry and facial features are hard to create well with this resolution. By allowing a wide range of resolutions, people of all creative backgrounds can take on whatever resolution they're comfortable with. In addition to high resolution skins, I also want there to be a low-def resolution at 32x32, because sometimes Minecraft is better with even bigger pixels.
Skin Handling
Currently, the skin handling system is crude and designed to handle small transactions of data. This system will be crushed by the advent of HD skins.
Things that must be implemented include:
1. Introduce a resolution blocking system: Essentially, create a menu that allows the user to block or enable certain skin resolutions. This would be a menu in the options with a list of 6 checkboxes(1 for each resolution). Unchecking the 32x32 box, for instance, would make people with a 32x32 skin look like your texture pack's default player unless they had a second skin that was supported. Reason: It allows both high res and low res favoring users to have their way while also allowing them to have a broad range of accepted skins
2. Create an additional, secondary skin slot: Implement a second skin slot in case a skin gets blocked by the resolution blocker. This prevents half your friends from looking like steve when you apply res-block. The first skin will take priority and be applied if both are supported.
3. Redundant skin handling (ten people use the same skin, instead of there being ten skins stored, associate the first skin with the others).
Reason: Some skins are used by thousands of players. By 'networking' identical skins between multiple users instead of treating them individually, a massive chunk of data usage is removed. In addition, servers should be able to set their own skin resolution limit.
Independent Skin System
Remove the skin server entirely and relay skins directly through the server to the users. Additionally, allow real time skin changing through the server(meaning instant skin swaps for roleplay!).The skin changing would work similarly to how texture packs work, with the primary skin being the first contender for being displayed, and a secondary skin slot for a different resolution, if desired.
A minecraft server would maintain its' own skin database that clears out skins that aren't used after 30 days at startup. This system can also enable servers to restrict skin sizes for certain users, allowing HD skins to be a donator perk, as well as controlling the skins of the users(I.E naked skins could be changed to a more modest skin, problem skinners can be banned from changing their skins, etc.). This system means you can have a catalog of skins, clothing, and uniforms, etc, on servers independant of eachother.
It evenly distributes the data and memory burden of skins through the userbase, enabling usage of skins when auth servers and skin servers are down and easing the burden on Mojang. In addition, it largely eliminates 'skin stealing' by isolating skins on a per - server basis, protecting the intellectual property of users.
In summary, the enhancements to the skin system would include:
-
BetterActual redundant skin handling- High scalability (lower tier PCs would be unaffected by the feature)
- Higher resolution skins, more creative freedom when creating skins
- Independence from skin servers meaning skins are always available.
- real time skin changing
- server specific skins
-one click, in game, skin changing.
-aesthetic flexibility
-Makes skins compatible with different texture pack resolutions, and allows you to prevent incompatible resolution skins from rendering.
However, some drawbacks include:
- An increase in database and server memory/data usage (partially corrected by the redundancy handler and high res disabler in server settings)
- Possible increase in skin loading time
- Potential lag (Which is why high res skins can be turned off)
Need some more convincing? Let's see these skins in their natural habitat and in vanilla minecraft.
Exhibit 1: Inuyasha(Cartoon theme)
Default textures
HD textures
Exhibit 2: Master chief(Deep shading)
Default textures
HD textures
Exhibit 3: Girls
Default textures
HD Textures
Now I wish to discuss some common counter-arguments
"It goes against the feel of minecraft, breaking immersion."
That is a very good point, assuming everyone uses 16x16 texture packs. Over the years, texture packs and HD texture packs have slowly been given native support and more and more depth in their abilities(I.E. block meshes). The users with higher end computers may be using intermacgod's realistic pack or one of the hd versions of sphax, or LB Photorealism or some amalgamation of the three. While their worlds will be vividly detailed... a quick press of f5 reminds you that you're an out of place, pixellated blob.
And a quote:
Also, what are your thoughts on the skin handling system I proposed?
I'll just paste the OP counterargument here. (also keep in mind you can opt out of seeing hd skins)
BTW: please change your max resolution of 1028x1028 to 1024x1024. 1028 pixels is horrible for performance in a real-time rendered environnement.
This 'confrontation' or 'change' will be completely optional, just like the option to not use hd skins yourself.
Please fully read the OP if you wish to identify flaws in my suggestion.
While I think your idea is good, I feel that uploading any more than 2 HD skins would simply consume way too much data and take far too much work for the user to do.
The 1028 thing was just bad math on my part.
I'll try to post more pictures when I can. HD skins are plentiful so getting the material shouldn't be a problem.
And in the example you posted, the 512x512 skin would be scaled to half the resolution (in the same way as you can shrink an image in word or paint, probably done client-side) to produce a 256x256 texture that'll fit in the texture pack you're using. The result will be slightly less detailed than the original skin, but the resolution should be the same as our pack.
BTW: many of you might not know how an upscaled image looks, so here's an example: The top part is an image that's been upscaled 2x using nearest-neighbor interpolation, which basically means the pixels themselves are enlarged 2x. The bottom part is upscaled using a smarter algorithm. It's result looks a lot more HD than the original version, though if you look closely you'll see that it works very well on some parts but rather poor at other parts. The upscaling algorithm I've used is meant to be run in real-time (so it's made to be fast more than to look good), so it should be possible to get a much better result when the files are pregenerated.
I do know and have seen it in action. :\ Downsizing's not pretty when you have this to work with:
This piece of armor here contains a symbol that loses all meaning if it is interpolated to be higher or lower resolution. It is the thunderbird; an important symbol for many native american tribes that has distinct wings that always feature right angles, in a 3-stepped staircase pattern along the bottoms of the wings. Your method of upscaling, while intriguing, would remove or alter key details in the process of this 'translation', unfortunately depleting some of the skin's symbolic and artistic integrity. The same goes for downscaling.
However, I don't quite see the relevance of exact resolution matching, still... Compare these two images:
Whether or not a skin 'fits in' is, in part, situational. In the temple depicted with the default texture pack, the high-res inuyasha is far more at home than the hot pink, but low res astronaut.
While I do agree that a well-drawn skin at a higher resolution as the one you've shown in the post above this one can look good in the default Minecraft graphics, I'd still prefer to at least have an option to make the skins adjust to the resolution of the texture pack you're using. I just don't want to see realistic HD skins when playing on the default graphics.
EDIT: could you post an image of that same HD skin you used in your previous post, but with a zombie and/or a player with a normal skin next to it? It's possible that it'll fit in less when there's more than just the environement to compare it with.
I'll get the pictures done soon. Might take a couple hours because I'm a tad busy right now though.
Third party HD skin solutions are very glitchy sometimes...
Exhibit 1: Inuyasha(Cartoon theme)
HD textures
Exhibit 2: Master chief(Deep shading)
Default textures
HD textures
Exhibit 3: Girls
Default textures
HD Textures
The images still show the high def skins as palatable despite being higher resolution. It may be that the forced conformity to a general blocky shape is to blame. The aesthetic is always unified by right angles along textured surfaces, making the resolution more noticeable, but not necessarily novel compared to any landscape in the game.
EDIT: All those skins were 1024x512, three 2's higher resolution than the texturepack.
It's the pickaxe, isn't it?
On topic: I revised the OP. Included pictures in OP.
64x64 skin A
128x128 skin B
so on
If so, there could be an option for A player to have all players at "X" resolution, or set it to default to whatever the current user is wearing by what they preferred.
Mewtwo is the best pokemon!
I'm sorry, But I don't support this idea
P.S. Also, It would make Pixel art practically impossible.
The HD skins always fit simply because of the constraints of the character models