I read it I just had no clue what you where trying to get at. However, because I do want to see what you are saying I did reread it and I still don't quite get it (sorry for that). Would you mind just telling me again what your point to all that math is? I'm just getting the point of the efficiency. But can we at least agree that all hand picks are slower, less efficient material wise, are not the best choice in most cases of mining?
The math was done to show that even at HALF of what OP's suggested for durability, you can mine your way (stair fashion) from as far down as you can go to as far up as you can go, on only 3 wood blocks, using the weakened (not OP's) version.
My argument turned from "No Diamond/Steel" to "Either No Diamond/Steel or You Use Fubar's Restrictions"
And I'm trying to meet midway by arguing the latter.
Currently, between the two Fubar/OP, Fubar's restrictions make the Handpicks SO weak that Steel or Diamond would be restricted to just the blocks that they are required to get returns from. Whereas OP's leaves enough uses to use a Diamond or Steel on things other than what's required. (which I'm heavily against)
In answer to your question: Yes. We're currently just trying to figure out the first two requirements so that the third is true.
ok I get it now. I understand your point of view and your concerns of the OP being over powered with too many uses. So, can we leave it at that we agree to disagree? I simply think that the OP is balanced just right and you think it needs to be nurphed. Deal?
My only condition then is that we both preface our arguments with "I believe".
Since we've gotten to this point, I'd have to say that if we preface our arguments, we won't have to try to counter each other's arguments for someone new to the thread.
Maybe we can get the OP to include Fubar's limitations (or some variation everyone from my side can back) in his first post and start a vote thread?
Okay, first of all, lets go back over the disadvantages of the hand tools as they stand:
Sling = 1/2 Damage of Bow (or 1/4, if 1/2 is still overpowered), 1/2 Range of Bow, and a firing rate equal to the maximum rate that a single enemy can be damaged (if you encounter 2 or more enemies, or miss at all, you're going to lose ground) Ammunition is crafted directly from gravel but 1 gravel = 2 bullets instead of being able to provide 4 arrows through breaking for flint)
Knife = Same Threat Range as Punching (I don't know if the sword extends your threat range, but it always seemed bigger to me) 1/2 damage of a sword of the same material, 1/2 Efficiency (and since twice as many attacks will be needed to kill the same number of enemies, its total practical efficiency is ALREADY only 1/4)
Trowel = Same cost as building full shovel minus 1 stick, 1/2 Efficiency (People are already complain about shovels wearing out too fast), Dig Speed = 1 Material Level Lower, ultimately useless since you can just dig by hand for everything except snowballs, big whoop.
Hand Pick (This is really the only one I see anyone bringing even the slightest effective complaint on) = Same cost of building full Pickaxe - 1stick. 2/3 damage when used as weapon (rounded up), 1/2 efficiency, Speed = 1 Material Level Lower (including detriments from the lower tiered material trying to break an unminable material)
The last point on the Hand Pick seems to be where the big fight is focused around. To me, everything else seems balanced without question. Here's a concession I'm willing to consider. Please have THIS TABLE open so you can follow along better:
1) The Speed at which a Hand Pick can break any individual block is first dropped to that of a pickaxe the next tier down ( -> , -> , -> / , / -> Bare Hands)
2) If the new speed falls in a mineable speed section(non-dark gray area), then that time is doubled. If it falls in a NON-minable section(dark gray area), the time is not doubled.
This would mean that an Iron Hand Pick would be able to mine an iron ore block in 3.88 seconds, but a Stone Hand Pick would take 15.22 seconds. A Diamond Hand Pick would be able to mine Diamond Ore in 2.08 seconds, but an Iron Hand Pick would take 15.22 seconds. A Stone Hand Pick could mine Smooth stone in 3.88 seconds, but a Wood/Gold Hand Pick would take 7.68 seconds.
Another concession I would be willing to make would be to change the crafting recipe for the Hand Pick from only needing 2 components+1stick to needing 3 components +1stick: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
This would mean that in terms of total cost, you're effectively spending the same amount of USEFUL components on an item that will last half as long and always take twice as long (or more) to mine the same material.
EDIT: Since Sabata seems satisfied with this latter option, I'm going to go with it and skip the more complex speed issues.
Another concession I would be willing to make would be to change the crafting recipe for the Hand Pick from only needing 2 components+1stick to needing 3 components +1stick: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
This would mean that in terms of total cost, you're effectively spending the same amount of USEFUL components on an item that will last half as long and always take twice as long (or more) to mine the same material.
That alone makes your suggestion much more balanced.
The Speed system isn't the problem (resources to availability to usage was) , but what you've described sounds good.
As for the other tools, They're balanced enough with just your option. (The pick really is the biggest hurdle)
The Sling MAY require reworking... I haven't done the math on it yet, but it'll probably be decent.
It's possible that the fact you can change targets and fire imemdiately with a Bow that could keep the Sling a lower tier.
So what about the idea of the knife being throwable? As long as knives aren't stackable, the constant act of losing your knife and needing to change weapon slots (or go pick your knife back up) would seem to balance out its effectiveness as a battle tactic?
Knife being throwable would rely greatly on Sling at 1/2 power being balanced.
Because with only two/three knives you can easily chain hit a single enemy to death and be damage free (probably not against a skeleton)
Though that would require a bit of skill to pull off to get a fire rate higher than the assumed Sling.
If possible, if the Knife's thrown damage is halved then it would be balanced.
That's assuming the Knife is half of the respective sword's power.
Which would mean diamond daggers would cause 1.25 when thrown, and no matter how fast you throw, it'd be less DPS than a bow...
So yeah halve the Dagger's thrown damage and it would be balanced.
If you don't you'd cause Diamond daggers to possibly be the best weapon in the game.
I've modified the topic post to include the changes to the Hand Pick. I'm considering adding this idea as well:
Dynamite(x1): Crafting [@] = string [@]
Stackable, Can be thrown (hold down right click to light, release to throw) Not as powerful as TNT obviously. Throwing them at fire or lava sets them off as soon as they hit the flame. Explosions from dynamite will take out the 1 block adjacent to it in each of the 6 directions around where the stick lands.
I'd also like other people to start submitting more 2x2 ideas as well. I have one for pigments and dyes, but it really deserves its own subject.
I haven't had a chance to work with TNT, instead of expanding TNT, make dynamite only destroy teh adjacent blocks to it. so if you put the dynamite inside of an empty block, it would break the 6 blocks on each side surrounding it, but none of the diagonals.
Quote from sabata2 »
Which would mean diamond daggers would cause 1.25 when thrown, and no matter how fast you throw, it'd be less DPS than a bow...
I don't like having 1/4 values for weapons. What about doing 1/2 damage rounded up to nearest .5?
I have to admit, there is no use for 2x2 stuff. I also must admit I had to look up how to make things because I had no idea that you needed a workbench for tools. This is very friendly to first time users.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Destrozo »
So you say 1.4 is fail because you don't know how to update your server? WTF
Thats like saying all cars fail because you don't know how to put gas in them.
I haven't had a chance to work with TNT, instead of expanding TNT, make dynamite only destroy teh adjacent blocks to it. so if you put the dynamite inside of an empty block, it would break the 6 blocks on each side surrounding it, but none of the diagonals.
Quote from sabata2 »
Which would mean diamond daggers would cause 1.25 when thrown, and no matter how fast you throw, it'd be less DPS than a bow...
I don't like having 1/4 values for weapons. What about doing 1/2 damage rounded up to nearest .5?
Dynamite in that formation would probably be a decent enough implementation... Would it be "cheaper" than TNT though...
To get roughly the same destructive range, you'd need 3 Dyna for 1 TNT.
6 gunpowder 3 sticks 3 string
5 gunpowder 4 sand
Pretty damn close to equivalent. If Dyna is weaker it'd definitely be balanced, but even if it can't be weaker it's very close.
As for the dagger, half damage to the nearest .5 means 2.5 damage (diamond and stronger than a bow) and with practice can be thrown the right rate to constantly deal damage. (arrows bounce off if the enemy isn't vulnerable)
So with practice you could hit at the same rate as a bow, but be stronger.
To get roughly the same destructive range, you'd need 3 Dyna for 1 TNT.
6 gunpowder 3 sticks 3 string
5 gunpowder 4 sand
Pretty damn close to equivalent. If Dyna is weaker it'd definitely be balanced, but even if it can't be weaker it's very close.
what if you made it this way:
Powder bomb: Crafting = cloth
The Powder bomb can be used 2 ways, Either it can be thrown at a (lit) torch or block that is on fire in order to blow up (breaks the single block that the torch attached to, or that is on fire, damaging any enemy that is touching or standing on it)
It can also be placed on the ground, similar to redstone dust, in order to make a flammable surface which will catch fire if any block next to it is on fire, allowing you spread fire more effectively and directly. It will also catch fire if you use teh Flint and Steel on it.
Dynamite: Crafting = Powder Bomb, [@] = String [@]
OR
Fuse Bomb: Crafting = Powder Bomb, [@] = String [@]
Acts same as dynamite (damages 6 surrounding blocks), but is merely an alternate crafting method to make it more expensive.
KEEP IN MIND: When I said press right click to light, and release right click to throw, that means that the countdown starts as soon as you press the button. If you hold onto it too long, it'll blow up in your hand.
As for the dagger, half damage to the nearest .5 means 2.5 damage (diamond and stronger than a bow) and with practice can be thrown the right rate to constantly deal damage. (arrows bounce off if the enemy isn't vulnerable)
So with practice you could hit at the same rate as a bow, but be stronger.
We can go 1/4 but rounded up to nearest .5 (1.5)
How about half damage dealt when thrown, but also have it count double or even triple against its durability, which is already 1/2 that of a sword.
"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
My argument turned from "No Diamond/Steel" to "Either No Diamond/Steel or You Use Fubar's Restrictions"
And I'm trying to meet midway by arguing the latter.
Currently, between the two Fubar/OP, Fubar's restrictions make the Handpicks SO weak that Steel or Diamond would be restricted to just the blocks that they are required to get returns from. Whereas OP's leaves enough uses to use a Diamond or Steel on things other than what's required. (which I'm heavily against)
In answer to your question: Yes. We're currently just trying to figure out the first two requirements so that the third is true.
Since we've gotten to this point, I'd have to say that if we preface our arguments, we won't have to try to counter each other's arguments for someone new to the thread.
Maybe we can get the OP to include Fubar's limitations (or some variation everyone from my side can back) in his first post and start a vote thread?
Sling = 1/2 Damage of Bow (or 1/4, if 1/2 is still overpowered), 1/2 Range of Bow, and a firing rate equal to the maximum rate that a single enemy can be damaged (if you encounter 2 or more enemies, or miss at all, you're going to lose ground) Ammunition is crafted directly from gravel but 1 gravel = 2 bullets instead of being able to provide 4 arrows through breaking for flint)
Knife = Same Threat Range as Punching (I don't know if the sword extends your threat range, but it always seemed bigger to me) 1/2 damage of a sword of the same material, 1/2 Efficiency (and since twice as many attacks will be needed to kill the same number of enemies, its total practical efficiency is ALREADY only 1/4)
Trowel = Same cost as building full shovel minus 1 stick, 1/2 Efficiency (People are already complain about shovels wearing out too fast), Dig Speed = 1 Material Level Lower, ultimately useless since you can just dig by hand for everything except snowballs, big whoop.
Hand Pick (This is really the only one I see anyone bringing even the slightest effective complaint on) = Same cost of building full Pickaxe - 1stick. 2/3 damage when used as weapon (rounded up), 1/2 efficiency, Speed = 1 Material Level Lower (including detriments from the lower tiered material trying to break an unminable material)
The last point on the Hand Pick seems to be where the big fight is focused around. To me, everything else seems balanced without question. Here's a concession I'm willing to consider. Please have THIS TABLE open so you can follow along better:
-> 
, 
-> 
, 
-> 
/ 
, 
/ 
-> Bare Hands)1) The Speed at which a Hand Pick can break any individual block is first dropped to that of a pickaxe the next tier down (
2) If the new speed falls in a mineable speed section(non-dark gray area), then that time is doubled. If it falls in a NON-minable section(dark gray area), the time is not doubled.
This would mean that an Iron Hand Pick would be able to mine an iron ore block in 3.88 seconds, but a Stone Hand Pick would take 15.22 seconds. A Diamond Hand Pick would be able to mine Diamond Ore in 2.08 seconds, but an Iron Hand Pick would take 15.22 seconds. A Stone Hand Pick could mine Smooth stone in 3.88 seconds, but a Wood/Gold Hand Pick would take 7.68 seconds.
Another concession I would be willing to make would be to change the crafting recipe for the Hand Pick from only needing 2 components+1stick to needing 3 components +1stick:
This would mean that in terms of total cost, you're effectively spending the same amount of USEFUL components on an item that will last half as long and always take twice as long (or more) to mine the same material.
EDIT: Since Sabata seems satisfied with this latter option, I'm going to go with it and skip the more complex speed issues.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
That alone makes your suggestion much more balanced.
The Speed system isn't the problem (resources to availability to usage was) , but what you've described sounds good.
As for the other tools, They're balanced enough with just your option. (The pick really is the biggest hurdle)
The Sling MAY require reworking... I haven't done the math on it yet, but it'll probably be decent.
It's possible that the fact you can change targets and fire imemdiately with a Bow that could keep the Sling a lower tier.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Based upon the fire rate (which has no verifiable information) it may even be balanced at 1/2.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Good show, sir. Good show indeed.
Because with only two/three knives you can easily chain hit a single enemy to death and be damage free (probably not against a skeleton)
Though that would require a bit of skill to pull off to get a fire rate higher than the assumed Sling.
If possible, if the Knife's thrown damage is halved then it would be balanced.
That's assuming the Knife is half of the respective sword's power.
Which would mean diamond daggers would cause 1.25 when thrown, and no matter how fast you throw, it'd be less DPS than a bow...
So yeah halve the Dagger's thrown damage and it would be balanced.
If you don't you'd cause Diamond daggers to possibly be the best weapon in the game.
Not sure if that's possible though.
Dynamite(x1): Crafting [@] = string
Stackable, Can be thrown (hold down right click to light, release to throw) Not as powerful as TNT obviously. Throwing them at fire or lava sets them off as soon as they hit the flame. Explosions from dynamite will take out the 1 block adjacent to it in each of the 6 directions around where the stick lands.
I'd also like other people to start submitting more 2x2 ideas as well. I have one for pigments and dyes, but it really deserves its own subject.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Possible fix would be to expand TNT to a higher range, but iono bout that.
I don't like having 1/4 values for weapons. What about doing 1/2 damage rounded up to nearest .5?
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
Dynamite in that formation would probably be a decent enough implementation... Would it be "cheaper" than TNT though...
To get roughly the same destructive range, you'd need 3 Dyna for 1 TNT.
6 gunpowder 3 sticks 3 string
5 gunpowder 4 sand
Pretty damn close to equivalent. If Dyna is weaker it'd definitely be balanced, but even if it can't be weaker it's very close.
As for the dagger, half damage to the nearest .5 means 2.5 damage (diamond and stronger than a bow) and with practice can be thrown the right rate to constantly deal damage. (arrows bounce off if the enemy isn't vulnerable)
So with practice you could hit at the same rate as a bow, but be stronger.
We can go 1/4 but rounded up to nearest .5 (1.5)
I only had iron, and sticks. Can you seriously believe that?
But if you hum a few bars I can fake it.
Powder bomb: Crafting
The Powder bomb can be used 2 ways, Either it can be thrown at a (lit) torch or block that is on fire in order to blow up (breaks the single block that the torch attached to, or that is on fire, damaging any enemy that is touching or standing on it)
It can also be placed on the ground, similar to redstone dust, in order to make a flammable surface which will catch fire if any block next to it is on fire, allowing you spread fire more effectively and directly. It will also catch fire if you use teh Flint and Steel on it.
Dynamite: Crafting
OR
Fuse Bomb: Crafting
Acts same as dynamite (damages 6 surrounding blocks), but is merely an alternate crafting method to make it more expensive.
KEEP IN MIND: When I said press right click to light, and release right click to throw, that means that the countdown starts as soon as you press the button. If you hold onto it too long, it'll blow up in your hand.
How about half damage dealt when thrown, but also have it count double or even triple against its durability, which is already 1/2 that of a sword.
PLEASE ALSO SUPPORT:
Sabata & Grey Acumen's "New Nether"
Grey Acumen's Minecraft 2.0 Suggestion Series
I love knives
*sweats*
"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch