The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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hello everyone
i wanted to do some before and after snapshots of my world for some future tutorials. it won't be a huge deal if it doesn't happen though. here is the problem. i took the seed from my world, which was originally generated in java version 1.13 and created a fresh world which came out near perfect, as far as i can tell, except the village spawned in the same place but a different layout.
however, when i update the world to 1.14.4, some things seem to update, but the village structures are still old style, as are the villagers. i have never done this before, and according to to all the info i tried to google you cannot recreate a past world, so what did i miss?
Assuming both worlds were created in the same version of Minecraft I think things like village layout can still generate differently depending on from which direction the chunks they are in are first approached.
Say you have a house on the side of a hill, if the uphill side is generated first the downhill side will have to be on a dirt pillar, if the downhill side generates first the uphill side will be buried in the hill.
As for the updating, that sounds normal, chunks that were generated before the update will have old structures and villagers and chunks generated after will have new ones. Newly spawned/bred villagers will probably be new style and all the villagers will probably have the new behaviours. Villagers you traded with before the update might keep their old trades (or they might get messed up), I think any others should have new trades.
Not quite sure what you mean by "cannot recreate a past world".
Well if I understood correctly, you have a 1.13 world with 1.13-generate villages. This means that if you generate a 1.14 world with the same seed, you will have 1.4-style villages, with different generation rules. This notwithstanding the generation changes that may occur for large villages approached from different directions.
The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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Thanks for the responses Hexalobular and Palin. I didn't know the approach mattered. If I try to build this world in any other version but 1.13, I get a completely different world. The village in question is part of my world spawn so it may load all the time but i am going to try creating it again and leaving as soon as i spawn and updating from there. when i originally played this world, everything was in 1.14 style so i have to figure out how i did that.
The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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**UPDATE **
for some reason, the different versions now spawn my world when they were just spawning random worlds before. not sure why but i am not complaining. depending on what version I create the world in, depends on what configuration the village will be in, and what style. it seems i actually created this world in 1.14 and not 1.13 as i had though before. i think this was only a problem for me because the village was within sight of my world spawn. Thanks for the help.
for some reason, the different versions now spawn my world when they were just spawning random worlds before. not sure why but i am not complaining. depending on what version I create the world in, depends on what configuration the village will be in, and what style. it seems i actually created this world in 1.14 and not 1.13 as i had though before. i think this was only a problem for me because the village was within sight of my world spawn. Thanks for the help.
Just curious, in the worlds that seem to be random did you happen to do a /seed command to see if MC took the seed you really wanted?
If you accidentally enter one or more invisible spaces before or after a numeric seed you will not get what you expected.
The seed input routine doesn't trim leading and trailing spaces and will instead "hash" the string into a 32 bit signed integer.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous people. R.A. Heinlein
If you aren't part of the solution, then you obviously weren't properly dissolved.
The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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@BigAlM - thanks for replying.
i have a habit of copying and pasting with an extra space or 2 if i do it too fast lol but after looking more closely a few minutes ago, i realized that i put the seed number in the wrong box, so it wasn't getting the seed at all.
Yep, that would definitely give you a random seeded world.
Amidst will warn you if you have a leading or trailing space in it's seed input dialog.
Mojang programmers don't do a lot of input error checking.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous people. R.A. Heinlein
If you aren't part of the solution, then you obviously weren't properly dissolved.
Assuming both worlds were created in the same version of Minecraft I think things like village layout can still generate differently depending on from which direction the chunks they are in are first approached.
This does not apply to structures - only minor decorations like trees, as structures are generated in their entirety using an in-memory map which is used to place parts that intersect the currently populating "chunk", with the "map" created using a separately seeded RNG whose seed only depends on the starting chunk; only the elevations of individual buildings may vary (in the case of mineshafts they can partially generate differently depending on the order you generate chunks due to springs generating in the walls before a piece was fully generated, which will prevent the rest of the piece from generating since they can't intersect liquids but the overall layout remains the same, as can be seen in this example, only the parts that are where the springs generate are different/missing).
In fact, even changes to world generation won't affect how a structure continues to generate in new chunks, provided that there were no changes to how the structure is made (for example, if 1.14 removed the code for generating old village buildings then there is no way it can generate the rest of an old village using the old buildings. Conversely, my "double/triple height terrain" mods only changed the location and elevation of mineshafts, so if you loaded such a world in vanilla partially generated mineshafts will fully generate despite being at impossible altitudes). This is also part of the reason why they added saving of structures to 1.6.4/1.7, besides just ensuring that the bounding boxes of structures like witch huts and the start of strongholds were remembered when upgrading to a version with different world generation, as it helps avoid cut-off structures, though it won't do anything for structures that start in new chunks).
The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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Hey everyone.
Boy did i learn a lot in a year LOL.
I started a new world in 1.14 an learned that weird stuff does indeed happen with even the slightest of chages to using the seed to make another world.
For example:
1 - if you use the seed you have to also keep all the settings exactly the same including the world name otherwise it will generate differently. you can change the name and other things after the initial save.
2 - if you update the version to a much higher version, like from 1.14 to 1.16, things will change even in the chunks that are already loaded. a villager was talking to a nitwit before the update and after it was relaoded the nitwit was gone but the villager was still in place as if still talking for a second or 2 before walking away, among other things.
3 - as always you have to make the copy world in the same version as the original was made. You cant use the seed that was made in 1.14 and make it in 1.15 or 1.16 the world will generate differently.
does anyone know of any program that can compare two worlds to see the differences of the same seed used in two different versions. im curious about things like that. i know of programs that can compare the code but what fun is that LOL
2 - if you update the version to a much higher version, like from 1.14 to 1.16, things will change even in the chunks that are already loaded. a villager was talking to a nitwit before the update and after it was relaoded the nitwit was gone but the villager was still in place as if still talking for a second or 2 before walking away, among other things.
3 - as always you have to make the copy world in the same version as the original was made. You cant use the seed that was made in 1.14 and make it in 1.15 or 1.16 the world will generate differently.
2. This is not supported. You have to update to 1.15 to get a world from 1.14 to 1.16, and if you play single player you have to convert the chunks before opening the world (otherwise only loaded chunks get converted on the fly).
3. This is true whenever you use a version which has a different world generation algorithm, from 1.15 to 1.16 the overworld should be generate pretty in the same way.
2. This is not supported. You have to update to 1.15 to get a world from 1.14 to 1.16, and if you play single player you have to convert the chunks before opening the world (otherwise only loaded chunks get converted on the fly).
This is not true - the game should be able to load chunks from any older version, back to at least 1.2 (prior to this the game used a completely different save format which required a full mandatory conversion when updating so any 1.2+ world will have been fully converted), as there is no guarantee that every chunk ever generated has been loaded in every version in between and if the game really could only handle chunks from the previous version then there would be no "optimize world" button - it would perform a full mandatory conversion every time you upgraded the game and would only let you open worlds from the previous version. The only thing that is not supported is downgrading versions; bugs that occur when updating a world should be reported to Mojang so they can be fixed (you should also look at the game output to see if any errors were reported).
For example, here is a report about written books in 1.8 worlds breaking when upgraded straight to 1.13, which was quickly fixed:
Even better, this report is about an issue that occurred when upgrading a world from some unknown extremely old version to 1.14.4 (it seems like it was created in Beta 1.7.3 or earlier based on a linked report of a similar issue, due to the way versions prior to Beta 1.7.3 handled chest metadata, which was only properly updated in worlds opened in Beta 1.8, but versions up to 1.7.10 ignored the invalid data) - which has also been fixed:
In conclusion, Mojang fully supports big leaps in versions and fixes any bugs found when doing so (of course, if they are reported).
Yes, chunks are converted, entities aren't. It's my bad I've written about chunks, but the thread opener said: “a villager was talking to a nitwit before the update and after it was relaoded the nitwit was gone but the villager was still in place as if still talking for a second or 2 before walking away, among other things.” and that's because in case of new entity AI, there's no way to “convert” but apply.
The disappearing Nitwit can be a bug, but I've seen villagers disappearing from villages when the new rules about working station and beds changed (which version introduced the working station and which changed the village computation based on stations plus beds, I do not remember).
Sorry for this misunderstanding.
Still, you are right and probably a double world conversion wouldn't change this behaviour.
Yes, chunks are converted, entities aren't. It's my bad I've written about chunks, but the thread opener said: “a villager was talking to a nitwit before the update and after it was relaoded the nitwit was gone but the villager was still in place as if still talking for a second or 2 before walking away, among other things.” and that's because in case of new entity AI, there's no way to “convert” but apply.
The disappearing Nitwit can be a bug, but I've seen villagers disappearing from villages when the new rules about working station and beds changed (which version introduced the working station and which changed the village computation based on stations plus beds, I do not remember).
Sorry for this misunderstanding.
Still, you are right and probably a double world conversion wouldn't change this behaviour.
Entities are part of the saved chunk data so if they disappear/become corrupt then it is a bug - Mojang has fixed such issues with converting worlds (chests themselves are a form of entity so the report about chests disappearing can be seen as the same issue). It is true though that things like AI are not part of the save data but that should only result in changes in behavior, not them simply vanishing.
That said, there is currently a bug, with many duplicates and comments so it is very common, which causes villagers to randomly disappear, even without upgrading, in versions 1.14.2 and later (possibly earlier, there are various reports of entities disappearing going back many years, some of which are due to other bugs, like suffocation glitches, or just for no obvious reason. Sometimes this is temporary; one time I had villagers seemingly disappear when I went to the Nether (modded 1.6.4) but MCEdit showed that they were still there (I was going to copy them from a backup since I knew it had to be a bug) and they reappeared when I reloaded the world):
The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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Hey everyone, not sure if I should put this message here or in the cave spider spawner thread i made because it applies to both.
my world seed contained a 6 spider spawners in one place, as shown in the uploaded image.
I made a huge string farm and it worked awesome. There was even a 7th spawner that was about 20 blocks away. I was going to set up a rail car with me in it to loop and see if i could afk and keep all the spawners active since it was only a 4 block difference but a power surge broke my surge protector / ups and borked my computer and major hard drive corruption.
meh, not the first time i've lost a world in a game. but once i sorted the above issues lol with putting in the seed properly with the correct version i am able to re-create my world as many times as i want except that no matter what i do i can only ever get 4 spider spawners to spawn in that area, never more than that.
all the other spawners in the world that i found up to the crash are always in the same places with the same mobs and the rest of the world seems to generate properly.
of course i haven't done a block by block comparison. lol did i just get real lucky the first time?
If I'm not mistaken, spawners are not completely seed-dependant, but also depends on the direction of the spawner discovery.
There are videos explaining how to “craft” standard dungeon spawners by placing blocks and pushing them to ungenerated chunks to exploit this dependency.
That said, I don't know if this applies to cave spiders spawners as they usually spawn with structures that should be seed-dependent.
My opinion is that maybe you had some intersecting mines that generated due to some bug that got corrected.
Maybe someone else more expert in vanilla world generation can come to your aid.
The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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thanks for the great answer
i would have to agree that, as they always spawn in the same spot, i think these particular spawners are seed dependant.
after making the world a few more times and paying closer attention i noticed that it's the same 4 that spawn every time. the 2 that are missing are always the same 2.
in the original spawn they were both second spawers of a double spawn so maybe that has something to do with it?
I have no idea the rate at which double spawners will spawn as opposed to just a single spawner and extra cobwebs where the second spawner should be.
as i said in a few of the threads i made, none of this is very critical to me, i just find it an interesting way to explore some of the mechanics of the game without getting too deep into the equations and higher math that goes over my head lol.
hello everyone
i wanted to do some before and after snapshots of my world for some future tutorials. it won't be a huge deal if it doesn't happen though. here is the problem. i took the seed from my world, which was originally generated in java version 1.13 and created a fresh world which came out near perfect, as far as i can tell, except the village spawned in the same place but a different layout.
however, when i update the world to 1.14.4, some things seem to update, but the village structures are still old style, as are the villagers. i have never done this before, and according to to all the info i tried to google you cannot recreate a past world, so what did i miss?
thanks
Assuming both worlds were created in the same version of Minecraft I think things like village layout can still generate differently depending on from which direction the chunks they are in are first approached.
Say you have a house on the side of a hill, if the uphill side is generated first the downhill side will have to be on a dirt pillar, if the downhill side generates first the uphill side will be buried in the hill.
As for the updating, that sounds normal, chunks that were generated before the update will have old structures and villagers and chunks generated after will have new ones. Newly spawned/bred villagers will probably be new style and all the villagers will probably have the new behaviours. Villagers you traded with before the update might keep their old trades (or they might get messed up), I think any others should have new trades.
Not quite sure what you mean by "cannot recreate a past world".
Just testing.
Well if I understood correctly, you have a 1.13 world with 1.13-generate villages. This means that if you generate a 1.14 world with the same seed, you will have 1.4-style villages, with different generation rules. This notwithstanding the generation changes that may occur for large villages approached from different directions.
Thanks for the responses Hexalobular and Palin. I didn't know the approach mattered. If I try to build this world in any other version but 1.13, I get a completely different world. The village in question is part of my world spawn so it may load all the time but i am going to try creating it again and leaving as soon as i spawn and updating from there. when i originally played this world, everything was in 1.14 style so i have to figure out how i did that.
**UPDATE **
for some reason, the different versions now spawn my world when they were just spawning random worlds before. not sure why but i am not complaining. depending on what version I create the world in, depends on what configuration the village will be in, and what style. it seems i actually created this world in 1.14 and not 1.13 as i had though before. i think this was only a problem for me because the village was within sight of my world spawn. Thanks for the help.
Just curious, in the worlds that seem to be random did you happen to do a /seed command to see if MC took the seed you really wanted?
If you accidentally enter one or more invisible spaces before or after a numeric seed you will not get what you expected.
The seed input routine doesn't trim leading and trailing spaces and will instead "hash" the string into a 32 bit signed integer.
There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous people. R.A. Heinlein
If you aren't part of the solution, then you obviously weren't properly dissolved.
The latest release of Amidst, version 4.6 can be found here:
https://github.com/toolbox4minecraft/amidst/releases
You should probably also read this:
https://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/mapping-and-modding-java-edition/minecraft-tools/2970854-amidst-map-explorer-for-minecraft-1-14
You can find me on the Minecraft Forums Discord server.
https://discord.gg/wGrQNKX
@BigAlM - thanks for replying.
i have a habit of copying and pasting with an extra space or 2 if i do it too fast lol but after looking more closely a few minutes ago, i realized that i put the seed number in the wrong box, so it wasn't getting the seed at all.
take your time people lol, don't rush around
Yep, that would definitely give you a random seeded world.
Amidst will warn you if you have a leading or trailing space in it's seed input dialog.
Mojang programmers don't do a lot of input error checking.
There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous people. R.A. Heinlein
If you aren't part of the solution, then you obviously weren't properly dissolved.
The latest release of Amidst, version 4.6 can be found here:
https://github.com/toolbox4minecraft/amidst/releases
You should probably also read this:
https://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/mapping-and-modding-java-edition/minecraft-tools/2970854-amidst-map-explorer-for-minecraft-1-14
You can find me on the Minecraft Forums Discord server.
https://discord.gg/wGrQNKX
This does not apply to structures - only minor decorations like trees, as structures are generated in their entirety using an in-memory map which is used to place parts that intersect the currently populating "chunk", with the "map" created using a separately seeded RNG whose seed only depends on the starting chunk; only the elevations of individual buildings may vary (in the case of mineshafts they can partially generate differently depending on the order you generate chunks due to springs generating in the walls before a piece was fully generated, which will prevent the rest of the piece from generating since they can't intersect liquids but the overall layout remains the same, as can be seen in this example, only the parts that are where the springs generate are different/missing).
In fact, even changes to world generation won't affect how a structure continues to generate in new chunks, provided that there were no changes to how the structure is made (for example, if 1.14 removed the code for generating old village buildings then there is no way it can generate the rest of an old village using the old buildings. Conversely, my "double/triple height terrain" mods only changed the location and elevation of mineshafts, so if you loaded such a world in vanilla partially generated mineshafts will fully generate despite being at impossible altitudes). This is also part of the reason why they added saving of structures to 1.6.4/1.7, besides just ensuring that the bounding boxes of structures like witch huts and the start of strongholds were remembered when upgrading to a version with different world generation, as it helps avoid cut-off structures, though it won't do anything for structures that start in new chunks).
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
Hey everyone.
Boy did i learn a lot in a year LOL.
I started a new world in 1.14 an learned that weird stuff does indeed happen with even the slightest of chages to using the seed to make another world.
For example:
1 - if you use the seed you have to also keep all the settings exactly the same including the world name otherwise it will generate differently. you can change the name and other things after the initial save.
2 - if you update the version to a much higher version, like from 1.14 to 1.16, things will change even in the chunks that are already loaded. a villager was talking to a nitwit before the update and after it was relaoded the nitwit was gone but the villager was still in place as if still talking for a second or 2 before walking away, among other things.
3 - as always you have to make the copy world in the same version as the original was made. You cant use the seed that was made in 1.14 and make it in 1.15 or 1.16 the world will generate differently.
does anyone know of any program that can compare two worlds to see the differences of the same seed used in two different versions. im curious about things like that. i know of programs that can compare the code but what fun is that LOL
2. This is not supported. You have to update to 1.15 to get a world from 1.14 to 1.16, and if you play single player you have to convert the chunks before opening the world (otherwise only loaded chunks get converted on the fly).
3. This is true whenever you use a version which has a different world generation algorithm, from 1.15 to 1.16 the overworld should be generate pretty in the same way.
This is not true - the game should be able to load chunks from any older version, back to at least 1.2 (prior to this the game used a completely different save format which required a full mandatory conversion when updating so any 1.2+ world will have been fully converted), as there is no guarantee that every chunk ever generated has been loaded in every version in between and if the game really could only handle chunks from the previous version then there would be no "optimize world" button - it would perform a full mandatory conversion every time you upgraded the game and would only let you open worlds from the previous version. The only thing that is not supported is downgrading versions; bugs that occur when updating a world should be reported to Mojang so they can be fixed (you should also look at the game output to see if any errors were reported).
For example, here is a report about written books in 1.8 worlds breaking when upgraded straight to 1.13, which was quickly fixed:
MC-137229 Book corruption when 1.8 world is loaded in 1.13
Here is another example, where chunks which hadn't been loaded since 1.13 were being reset - which was also fixed prior to the full release of 1.16:
MC-181522 Chunks that haven't been explored since 1.13 are resetting
Even better, this report is about an issue that occurred when upgrading a world from some unknown extremely old version to 1.14.4 (it seems like it was created in Beta 1.7.3 or earlier based on a linked report of a similar issue, due to the way versions prior to Beta 1.7.3 handled chest metadata, which was only properly updated in worlds opened in Beta 1.8, but versions up to 1.7.10 ignored the invalid data) - which has also been fixed:
MC-158853 Chests missing after converting and loading old map from 1.7.10
In conclusion, Mojang fully supports big leaps in versions and fixes any bugs found when doing so (of course, if they are reported).
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
Yes, chunks are converted, entities aren't. It's my bad I've written about chunks, but the thread opener said: “a villager was talking to a nitwit before the update and after it was relaoded the nitwit was gone but the villager was still in place as if still talking for a second or 2 before walking away, among other things.” and that's because in case of new entity AI, there's no way to “convert” but apply.
The disappearing Nitwit can be a bug, but I've seen villagers disappearing from villages when the new rules about working station and beds changed (which version introduced the working station and which changed the village computation based on stations plus beds, I do not remember).
Sorry for this misunderstanding.
Still, you are right and probably a double world conversion wouldn't change this behaviour.
Entities are part of the saved chunk data so if they disappear/become corrupt then it is a bug - Mojang has fixed such issues with converting worlds (chests themselves are a form of entity so the report about chests disappearing can be seen as the same issue). It is true though that things like AI are not part of the save data but that should only result in changes in behavior, not them simply vanishing.
That said, there is currently a bug, with many duplicates and comments so it is very common, which causes villagers to randomly disappear, even without upgrading, in versions 1.14.2 and later (possibly earlier, there are various reports of entities disappearing going back many years, some of which are due to other bugs, like suffocation glitches, or just for no obvious reason. Sometimes this is temporary; one time I had villagers seemingly disappear when I went to the Nether (modded 1.6.4) but MCEdit showed that they were still there (I was going to copy them from a backup since I knew it had to be a bug) and they reappeared when I reloaded the world):
MC-153904 Villagers sometimes disappear without any trace
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
Hey everyone, not sure if I should put this message here or in the cave spider spawner thread i made because it applies to both.
my world seed contained a 6 spider spawners in one place, as shown in the uploaded image.
I made a huge string farm and it worked awesome. There was even a 7th spawner that was about 20 blocks away. I was going to set up a rail car with me in it to loop and see if i could afk and keep all the spawners active since it was only a 4 block difference but a power surge broke my surge protector / ups and borked my computer and major hard drive corruption.
meh, not the first time i've lost a world in a game. but once i sorted the above issues lol with putting in the seed properly with the correct version i am able to re-create my world as many times as i want except that no matter what i do i can only ever get 4 spider spawners to spawn in that area, never more than that.
all the other spawners in the world that i found up to the crash are always in the same places with the same mobs and the rest of the world seems to generate properly.
of course i haven't done a block by block comparison. lol did i just get real lucky the first time?
If I'm not mistaken, spawners are not completely seed-dependant, but also depends on the direction of the spawner discovery.
There are videos explaining how to “craft” standard dungeon spawners by placing blocks and pushing them to ungenerated chunks to exploit this dependency.
That said, I don't know if this applies to cave spiders spawners as they usually spawn with structures that should be seed-dependent.
My opinion is that maybe you had some intersecting mines that generated due to some bug that got corrected.
Maybe someone else more expert in vanilla world generation can come to your aid.
thanks for the great answer
i would have to agree that, as they always spawn in the same spot, i think these particular spawners are seed dependant.
after making the world a few more times and paying closer attention i noticed that it's the same 4 that spawn every time. the 2 that are missing are always the same 2.
in the original spawn they were both second spawers of a double spawn so maybe that has something to do with it?
I have no idea the rate at which double spawners will spawn as opposed to just a single spawner and extra cobwebs where the second spawner should be.
as i said in a few of the threads i made, none of this is very critical to me, i just find it an interesting way to explore some of the mechanics of the game without getting too deep into the equations and higher math that goes over my head lol.