I will have to start at the beginning to explain the whole thing. Starting with MC-46765 the suffocation damage in leaves was a change made to stop x-ray. However there were a few side affects from this. A few minor ones that A player can take suffocation damage when using bonemeal to grow a tree. Or riding on a horse. And all mobs will also take suffocation damage in the leaves. However this also leads to a game crippling bug when you reach a Jungle biome. Anyone who actually plays the game will know that mobs will spawn inside of the leaf blocks in jungles. This will kill them and they drop normal drops. This may not sound like much but when you have 100's of pigs / cows / chickens all die and dropping items you now have a huge problem.
"Textures for leaves are removed to find dropped items!"
When finding this almost every 10 - 20 feet in the entire biome you can see what is causing the lag. These items are inside of the leaf blocks or on top or ground. Most being inside of the blocks hidden from view till they despawn. But till they do you will have bad lag.
I have tried reporting this. But almost instantly it got closed as resolved duplicate. Either the mod is the worlds fastest reader or it's done via a automated system. What'e even worse the duplicate that's posted was from minecraft 1.6.1.
Actually, no. This lag has been around long before leaves were changed to a solid block. This seems like something that would stack on top of the root cause.
Jungle lag is caused by constant chunk updates. Whenever a leaf decays, a vine grows, etc, the entire chunk in which that took place needs to be updated due to lighting calculations and such. Since vines in leafs are spammed all over the place in a jungle, this is happening multiple times per second in every rendered chunk and causes major framerate dips. There's a notable FPS difference between a fresh jungle, and an old jungle whose vines have fully grown and finishes decaying excess leaves.
Being on fancy graphics also plays a small role, but the main problem is the constant chunk updates.
Actually, no. This lag has been around long before leaves were changed to a solid block.
Jungle lag is caused by constant chunk updates. Whenever a leaf decays, a vine grows, etc, the entire chunk in which that took place needs to be updated. Since vines in leafs are spammed all over the place in a jungle, this is happening multiple times per second in every rendered chunk and causes major framerate dips. There's a notable FPS difference between a fresh jungle, and an old jungle whose vines have fully grown and finishes decaying excess leaves.
Being on fancy graphics also plays a small role, but the main problem is the constant chunk updates.
Actually, no. This lag has been around long before leaves were changed to a solid block.
Jungle lag is caused by constant chunk updates. Whenever a leaf decays, a vine grows, etc, the entire chunk in which that took place needs to be updated. Since vines in leafs are spammed all over the place in a jungle, this is happening multiple times per second in every rendered chunk and causes major framerate dips. There's a notable FPS difference between a fresh jungle, and an old jungle whose vines have fully grown and finishes decaying excess leaves.
Being on fancy graphics also plays a small role, but the main problem is the constant chunk updates.
The odd thing is, for me jungle lag is MUCH worse in 1.7+ than it is for 1.6.x; in fact, in 1.6.x I have hardly any problems in jungles (which also appears to be more due to light updates) while in 1.7+ it is almost constant and takes a few minutes to subside (even Optifine doesn't help much, unlike 1.6.x, where it isn't that bad even without it, just some more stuttering during chunk loading when generating new terrain, as long as I don't play on Fancy and turn Advanced OpenGL on, which is due to a different source of lag).
I'm guessing it has something to do with how they changed the game engine; while the lag occurs, the console gets spammed with "clientside chunk ticking took XXX" warnings (where XXX can sometimes be several thousand ms; my computer may not be the fastest but if it takes up to 100 times longer than a normal tick (50 ms) to do whatever it does there is a problem), which is a new warning that was added in 1.7 (in 1.6.x I might see a "memory connection overburdened"/"can't keep up" warning or two when flying over a jungle, but only a couple warnings, not constant spamming, and rarely during normal gameplay, excepting zombie lag in 1.6, which can be patched).
Chunk updates have been a lot more expensive as of 1.7.4 (Judging by how much of a performance hit I get while chunk updates are > 1, compared to 1.7.2 and earlier.), I'm not sure why though.
Suffocating in 2-block high solid ceilings while riding horses has been a problem since the horses were first introduced by the way. Why Mojang have still not made the collision of horse-riding players 3 blocks tall I do not know.
I have not come across the past lag issues with Jungle biomes. I had no issues with jungles until now. The lag is only around for the time duration of the items on the ground. Once they despawn the lag goes away! It's quite easy to walk the entire Jungle and fill your entire inventory with pork chops / raw Beef / raw chicken / feathers w/o killing a single mob.
I have noticed MAJOR Lag in 1.7 as compared to 1.6 and I run a beast machine. In 1.6 I could stroll through a jungle with no issues. Open that same exact save in 1.7 and I can barely even move.
Same here. In 1.7 jungles cause my fps to drop to 0.
I've also noticed that lag has gotten progressively worse over time. I contribute it to sloppy coding and oversights.
Nothing is decaying until you actually make changes. Chunks don't update unless you start torching the place.
It has EVERYTHING to do with the buggy lighting engine and shadows.
I don't see why what the OP is saying couldn't be a contributing factor. It seems like it could be a legit cause of lag to me, as well as the lighting like you have mentioned.
I will have to start at the beginning to explain the whole thing. Starting with MC-46765 the suffocation damage in leaves was a change made to stop x-ray. However there were a few side affects from this. A few minor ones that A player can take suffocation damage when using bonemeal to grow a tree. Or riding on a horse. And all mobs will also take suffocation damage in the leaves. However this also leads to a game crippling bug when you reach a Jungle biome. Anyone who actually plays the game will know that mobs will spawn inside of the leaf blocks in jungles. This will kill them and they drop normal drops. This may not sound like much but when you have 100's of pigs / cows / chickens all die and dropping items you now have a huge problem.
"Textures for leaves are removed to find dropped items!"
When finding this almost every 10 - 20 feet in the entire biome you can see what is causing the lag. These items are inside of the leaf blocks or on top or ground. Most being inside of the blocks hidden from view till they despawn. But till they do you will have bad lag.
I have tried reporting this. But almost instantly it got closed as resolved duplicate. Either the mod is the worlds fastest reader or it's done via a automated system. What'e even worse the duplicate that's posted was from minecraft 1.6.1.
Actually, no. This lag has been around long before leaves were changed to a solid block. This seems like something that would attack on top of the root cause.
Jungle lag is caused by constant chunk updates. Whenever a leaf decays, a vine grows, etc, the entire chunk in which that took place needs to be updated due to lighting calculations and such. Since vines in leafs are spammed all over the place in a jungle, this is happening multiple times per second in every rendered chunk and causes major framerate dips. There's a notable FPS difference between a fresh jungle, and an old jungle whose vines have fully grown and finishes decaying excess leaves.
Being on fancy graphics also plays a small role, but the main problem is the constant chunk updates.
Hey
First things first, are these jungles from 1.6 (or earlier), or are they "new" jungles from Minecraft 1.7?
The reason I'm asking is because I did some changes to leaf placement in 1.7, in order to limit the number of decaying leaf blocks in jungles.
However, there are two main reasons why jungles are slow:
1.Leaves and vines cause a large amount of chunk updates. Every time they spread or decay, the light and chunk model needs to be recalculated.
2.Some graphics cards have bad performance on alpha testing, and the jungles have a really large amounts of half-transparent blocks (leaves, grass/flowers, and vines). If you switch to "fast graphics", the amount of alpha testing is greatly reduced.
I also compared the FPS difference between an old Jungle with most of the leaves spread to maximum and excess leaf blocks decayed and a fresh (also note the chunk update counter)
Old:
New:
Items sitting on the ground can and will lag your game severely, especially when there's a lot of them. Normal game play this isn't a problem typically. I play on a friend's server and we test out a lot of different mods. I don't remember the exact the mods he had installed, but one of the mods had a special magical item you could put near crops to make them grow faster. What I did not know this particular time, was the item also harvested and replanted the crops.
I set it up, logged off and went off to do my stuff for the day and came back that evening to find the server near a horrid crawl around my base. It took me several minutes to get around and find the problem, but lo and behold, piled around and in the farm were hundreds of seeds and wheat with more being produced by the minute. My FPS was 0-3 the entire time as I pain stakingly picked up every item I could. Once I had a full inventory it was a little better, but FPS didn't go back to normal until those items were picked up or despawned.
I've tried this on single player games as well, and vanilla. Too many items floating around can and will cause lag.
Is it the main problem in Jungles? Probably not, but it doesn't help at all. My best bet is it's a combination of things that come together and just KO your FPS, even on really beefy machines.
Actually lag is caused by leaves.
Optifine says since leaves are transparent they cause so much lag because your game has to generate whats behind the leaf blocks and fast
Loved jungles in 1.2, hate them in 1.6+. At least jeb said he is working on it. Heck, we should be glad Mojang is even paying attention to issues like this at all.
Untrue. Haven't you walked across a random apple or sapling on ground before you even did anything...?
It happens a lot.
Indeed, a quick check with MCEdit shows a LOT of decaying leaves; in fact, a significant fraction of all leaves are marked as decaying:
However, this still doesn't explain why 1.7 performs so much worse than 1.6.4 and earlier, at least for me; 1.6.4 worlds also have lots of decaying leaves, and not just in jungles in both cases.
I play 1.7.5 and I have very little issue at all. I see mobs stuck in the leaf blocks but they never suffocate and create drops. They just sit there. I will admit I get small FRD from 60 fps to 50-55 when in a jungle but nothing that makes the game unplayable or anything. Guess I am lucky.
My biggest problems come from being in a boat. My frame rate will drop to 30-35 even if I am just sitting in a boat not moving. Then the second I get out it jumps back up to 60 fps.
"Textures for leaves are removed to find dropped items!"
When finding this almost every 10 - 20 feet in the entire biome you can see what is causing the lag. These items are inside of the leaf blocks or on top or ground. Most being inside of the blocks hidden from view till they despawn. But till they do you will have bad lag.
I have tried reporting this. But almost instantly it got closed as resolved duplicate. Either the mod is the worlds fastest reader or it's done via a automated system. What'e even worse the duplicate that's posted was from minecraft 1.6.1.
Jungle lag is caused by constant chunk updates. Whenever a leaf decays, a vine grows, etc, the entire chunk in which that took place needs to be updated due to lighting calculations and such. Since vines in leafs are spammed all over the place in a jungle, this is happening multiple times per second in every rendered chunk and causes major framerate dips. There's a notable FPS difference between a fresh jungle, and an old jungle whose vines have fully grown and finishes decaying excess leaves.
Being on fancy graphics also plays a small role, but the main problem is the constant chunk updates.
Praise be to Spode.
The odd thing is, for me jungle lag is MUCH worse in 1.7+ than it is for 1.6.x; in fact, in 1.6.x I have hardly any problems in jungles (which also appears to be more due to light updates) while in 1.7+ it is almost constant and takes a few minutes to subside (even Optifine doesn't help much, unlike 1.6.x, where it isn't that bad even without it, just some more stuttering during chunk loading when generating new terrain, as long as I don't play on Fancy and turn Advanced OpenGL on, which is due to a different source of lag).
I'm guessing it has something to do with how they changed the game engine; while the lag occurs, the console gets spammed with "clientside chunk ticking took XXX" warnings (where XXX can sometimes be several thousand ms; my computer may not be the fastest but if it takes up to 100 times longer than a normal tick (50 ms) to do whatever it does there is a problem), which is a new warning that was added in 1.7 (in 1.6.x I might see a "memory connection overburdened"/"can't keep up" warning or two when flying over a jungle, but only a couple warnings, not constant spamming, and rarely during normal gameplay, excepting zombie lag in 1.6, which can be patched).
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
Suffocating in 2-block high solid ceilings while riding horses has been a problem since the horses were first introduced by the way. Why Mojang have still not made the collision of horse-riding players 3 blocks tall I do not know.
The lag is only around for the time duration of the items on the ground. Once they despawn the lag goes away! It's quite easy to walk the entire Jungle and fill your entire inventory with pork chops / raw Beef / raw chicken / feathers w/o killing a single mob.
Same here. In 1.7 jungles cause my fps to drop to 0.
I've also noticed that lag has gotten progressively worse over time. I contribute it to sloppy coding and oversights.
I don't see why what the OP is saying couldn't be a contributing factor. It seems like it could be a legit cause of lag to me, as well as the lighting like you have mentioned.
Play minecraft.
NOW
They used to be my favourite biome, but now when I come across one I'm like, "Oh, **** a jungle."
Interesting theory, but is it proven?
Makes sense.
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I'm pretty sure Jeb himself has said Jungles cause a large amount of chunk updates in order to recalculate light.
Edit: Here
I also compared the FPS difference between an old Jungle with most of the leaves spread to maximum and excess leaf blocks decayed and a fresh (also note the chunk update counter)
Old:
New:
I set it up, logged off and went off to do my stuff for the day and came back that evening to find the server near a horrid crawl around my base. It took me several minutes to get around and find the problem, but lo and behold, piled around and in the farm were hundreds of seeds and wheat with more being produced by the minute. My FPS was 0-3 the entire time as I pain stakingly picked up every item I could. Once I had a full inventory it was a little better, but FPS didn't go back to normal until those items were picked up or despawned.
I've tried this on single player games as well, and vanilla. Too many items floating around can and will cause lag.
Is it the main problem in Jungles? Probably not, but it doesn't help at all. My best bet is it's a combination of things that come together and just KO your FPS, even on really beefy machines.
Optifine says since leaves are transparent they cause so much lag because your game has to generate whats behind the leaf blocks and fast
Ebola
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/2439522-snapshot-14w08a-age24-24-slots-survival-coop-community/
Untrue. Haven't you walked across a random apple or sapling on ground before you even did anything...?
It happens a lot.
Indeed, a quick check with MCEdit shows a LOT of decaying leaves; in fact, a significant fraction of all leaves are marked as decaying:
However, this still doesn't explain why 1.7 performs so much worse than 1.6.4 and earlier, at least for me; 1.6.4 worlds also have lots of decaying leaves, and not just in jungles in both cases.
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
My biggest problems come from being in a boat. My frame rate will drop to 30-35 even if I am just sitting in a boat not moving. Then the second I get out it jumps back up to 60 fps.