Okay, I figured it must have come up before now, but trawling through Reddit, or the Minecon videos again would be a grind. Minecraft still seems to have a long way to go before 'vanilla' itself is a plugin, much as the default resource pack is just a layer of what can be achieved.
I'm still of the opinion that it seems rather obvious that Mojang must be working on the API, at least to an extent.
I wonder if Mojang themselves will be free of all the flak they are currently receiving when it gets to the point when they'll be more like modders. A lot of people moan that the constant updates break mods, if that's the case the modders should up their game a little. A bit of a tangent from my original point, whatever that was...
I wonder if Mojang themselves will be free of all the flak they are currently receiving when it gets to the point when they'll be more like modders.
There's so much I can say in my criticism of Mojang stance regarding game modding. I can't fault them for breaking mods with every update when they aren't responsible for maintaining Forge. Neither I can blame them when modders who hack the code directly see their mod break with a new update, because they are in clear infringement of the game copyright.
But while all this illustrate the importance of an official mod api, I can't see Mojang changing their development strategy with the purpose of becoming more, generally speaking, hack-friendly (if I understood your post correctly?). If they developed with a mind on the current status of minecraft modding they would not be able to do much in terms of code changes. And that's even worse than no mods support. The game code has to grow and better itself, not stagnate.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I was trying to think of a signature and this is what came up.
The "Plugin API" is just another another name for the "Mod API". Plugins and Mods are exactly the same thing, just different names.
I agree. That distinction in terms of what the Plugin API will allow modders to do, is rather unimportant. Mods will most probably still be called mods (and modders still called modders), just like they are in thousands of other games offering similar APIs. Many people would be amused if they heard of the Ars Magica plugin for Minecraft. And would most definitely laugh if they learned it was done by the pluginator Mithion.
The term plugin is being taken too seriously. And the distinction with the word mod is becoming a tad too pedantic. In the gaming industry, the word plugin has very little use. Regardless of what Mojang decided to call the API, there is no reason to make a distinction between both words. The serve the exact same purpose in an game industry with thousands of other games with similar APIs almost all understood as being modding APIs.
Just look at the names, mod is short for modification, it modifies. Plugins plug in to it, meaning they do not edit it directly.
A mod modifies the look or behavior of the game. That's what a mod does. I'm still trying to understand where did people get this idea that the word modification should be applied to the game code.
So, what I'm wondering is; why we're all waiting for the plugin API? I'm all for changing Minecraft on a personal level to be able to play the game the way we like, but are mods going to be all that easy to convert to Plugins? I know that's probably a question one of the devs should be answering, but I can't remember anyone having brought it up yet.
I would say no. Nearly all mods are going to require a complete rewrite. You may be able to reuse some 'black box' code, but anything that interacts with the system will need to be rewritten.
Actually, no. They aren't. A mod edits the code of what it is made for, a plugin edits it indirectly without actually touching the code. Just look at the names, mod is short for modification, it modifies. Plugins plug in to it, meaning they do not edit it directly.
While technically and semantically correct, you are missing the point. When most players use the term "mod" they actually mean "3rd party extended content for Minecraft".
In other words, the "mod API" and "plug-in API" is the same thing within the Minecraft fan community. If Jeb wants to go around correcting people and insisting upon the use of the term "plug-in", more power to him. Besides, since the creation of ModLoader as well as FML, most "mods" have been largely plug-ins anyway in the strict sense of the word, even though they are extensions. The boundary pushing mods will actually modify base code of Minecraft, but the need to actually do that is diminishing as well.
Could Cubic Chunks be implemented without having to put the API on hold? This is probably kicking the Hornets nest, but what is the issue with the size of biomes in 1.7? I much prefer the new generation, both the temperature-based, and the lack of those tiny bits of biome that clashed all the time before 1.7. It wasn't even that big of a deal to me, I guess it comes down to opinion.
No, cubic chunks will not impact the release of the API, or at least the implementation of cubic chunks will not be necessary before the API is released. That would mainly impact world generation or chunk generation routines that would be impacted by a major format change in the internal data structures, but for things that add new blocks or change things that have no part of the world generation routines it wouldn't matter at all.
There are a whole bunch of misconceptions about what is necessary for the API, and it doesn't really need to be all that complicated. A very simple API can and IMHO should be released that could evolve with a dialog between the plug-in developers and Mojang about what additional features could be added over time. I think it is utterly boneheaded to think that the API could be delivered as if Moses descended from Mount Sinai with the tablets containing the full API specification that will be the one true word of Notch and never be changed again in the future.
Part of what the complaint here is that there are several people who have already developed API libraries for Minecraft including plug-in loaders that are widely used by a great many players. If it has been implemented by several people, why is it so hard to simply copy the code or do something similar?
That's not what I said, you read way too much into it, let me explain:
People keep moaning about the time it's taking for Mojang to implement the API, if they were to suddenly divert even 1 member of the team to work on re-writing the game to allow for cubic chunks, how would that not slow things down even further?
I think Mojang would prefer to make an API that doesn't break, and has few if any conflicts. Having said that, after Forge updating to 1.8, Forge mods should no longer conflict anyway, so maybe people will moan a little less.
I was under the impression that plugins are to be accessible from within the launcher, or maybe even the game itself; and possibly more importantly will be vetted by Mojang for quality, conflicts, and duplication.
Similar to the cubic chunks suggestion? Similar to the complaints regarding 1.7 huge biomes? They will hear us, and then ignore.
Where are these suggestions going? Where are these complaints going? Are they going directly to everyone at Mojang? Are they being persistently and logically maintained? Or are they just being stuck on these forums, where we have no confirmation that Mojang actually looks at it?
Not to mention the only thing I'm suggesting is that we get an answer to a question, not asking for a suggestion to be put in the game. Fairly sure Mojang would be more receptive to that. And if not, you get your answer anyways through the deliberate dodge of a direct series of questions.
Where are these suggestions going? Where are these complaints going? Are they going directly to everyone at Mojang? Are they being persistently and logically maintained? Or are they just being stuck on these forums, where we have no confirmation that Mojang actually looks at it?
Yes. Most of what you see in these forums is either echoed on other media, or a result of discussions elsewhere. Mojang is well aware at both the criticism and the praise their game or they themselves get.
Yes. Most of what you see in these forums is either echoed on other media, or a result of discussions elsewhere. Mojang is well aware at both the criticism and the praise their game or they themselves get.
Your wording does not suggest direct communication. It suggests other forums that this stuff is on that Mojang could happen to look at, but we have no confirmation that they do.
I've noticed that when people do have a more direct way, like twitter, they settle for what are apparently weasel words. But since you all have figured it out or whatever, better questions can be asked.
You may have reached a conclusion here, and you are creating and maintaining very nice evidence for it, but a confirmation of it would be nice.
The Mod API has been debated extensively on reddit and possibly hundreds of questions have been made about it on tweeter.
These forums are them too a community of Minecraft players. Debates like these help cement opinions or behaviors which are then echoed on more "official" communities, sometimes even by readers who didn't participate in the debate. As I said, Mojang is fully aware of the criticism and the displeasure of some players concerning the delay of the Plugin API. This thread is just another one discussing this issue with fellow players.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I was trying to think of a signature and this is what came up.
1.7.2 did not break the mods it was a set back because mcp had to find all the changes (over 2 million) in the Src and document them then forge also made some changes to work with it. so yeah it did not break anything.
1.7.2 did not break the mods it was a set back because mcp had to find all the changes (over 2 million) in the Src and document them then forge also made some changes to work with it. so yeah it did not break anything.
Whether or not Mojang decides to break mods due to an update, it doesn't matter. It is not Mojang's responsibility to make every mod compatible with every single update the game makes. However, if the API happens to come along, at that point it is then Mojang's responsibility to create adequate compatibility with plugins designed for the API.
... that's because you fail to interpret what people are saying.
I simply find it amazing (but unlike you not enough to hate this community) that some people so easily degrade and diminish other people's complaints, because they are simply not affected by these problems. Take you for instance: You call "the smallest of things" the fact we don'y have mod support since version 1.7.2 and the fact the Plugin API is being promised for 4 years. Well done in completely ignoring and degrading your fellow players for whom this is a problem.
Actually, Kyuubis Slave is right. You want them to release an API for a poorly optimized game, instead of optimizing it first and then releasing it. While it isn't fun waiting for so long for the API, the fact of the matter is that modders and players will benefit considerably more in the long run if Mojang does it right. And the right strategy, is to make sure the game is ready for an API. Which is precisely what they're doing.
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." §7- Mark Twain
The Mod API has been debated extensively on reddit and possibly hundreds of questions have been made about it on tweeter.
And this is my problem. I quote myself: "I've noticed that when people do have a more direct way, like twitter, they settle for what are apparently weasel words. But since you all have figured it out or whatever, better questions can be asked."
Regardless of whether or not they're aware of it, they have not actually said anything that you've found satisfactory, and they have not said anything that I think truly confirms that the Mod API will not come out. Asking them directly with better questions than "when is it coming out" is supposed to get them to actually confirm/deny this topic's title question directly.
Actually, Kyuubis Slave is right. You want them to release an API for a poorly optimized game, instead of optimizing it first and then releasing it. While it isn't fun waiting for so long for the API, the fact of the matter is that modders and players will benefit considerably more in the long run if Mojang does it right. And the right strategy, is to make sure the game is ready for an API. Which is precisely what they're doing.
Except we *do* have an API, which is (are actually) the various modding systems. We'd be far better off with a temporary API with *some* stability, even if Mojang plans to nuke it when they've got a permanent API ready to go. Yes, it's more work for Mojang, but the work saved for modders would vastly exceed the work put in by Mojang.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Geographicraft (formerly Climate Control) - Control climate, ocean, and land sizes; stop chunk walls; put modded biomes into Default worlds, and more!
RTG plus - All the beautiful terrain of RTG, plus varied and beautiful trees and forests.
Actually, Kyuubis Slave is right. You want them to release an API for a poorly optimized game, instead of optimizing it first and then releasing it. While it isn't fun waiting for so long for the API, the fact of the matter is that modders and players will benefit considerably more in the long run if Mojang does it right.
Adding to the reply Zeno410 just gave, I will also say that there is a strong misconception that a Plugin API must be something that should be only developed after the code reaches some unspoken goal. This is simply not true. It makes no sense whatsoever in a programming language so deeply embedded in the Object Oriented Programming paradigm. Plugin APIs for these type of languages are comparatively straightforward to developed. There's a whole group of design patterns created exactly to handle code-to-code communication with the explicit goal of removing as much dependency as possible.
Very few people ever develop Plugin APIs the way Mojang says they are doing it. Many games and a whole bunch of other software is released with ready-to-use plugin APIs despite the game or software code being still young and going to face years of changes and additions (along with entire DLCs or even full expansions). If Mojang is waiting for the moment they have the right codebase before they develop the plugin API, then we will definitely never see it. There will always be changes to the code that will affect the API. Tomorrow they will be doing the exact same type of code additions and changes they are doing today and the Plugin API would simply have to adapt to those code changes. This is how EVERYONE does Plugin APIs.
The problem with Mojang and the things they are saying is that they aren't the only developers on the face of the earth who understand software development and practice it at a professional level, neither they are the only game developer coming up with a Plugin API. Heck, as Zeno says, they aren't even the only ones who have come up with a Minecraft plugin API!
Asking them directly with better questions than "when is it coming out" is supposed to get them to actually confirm/deny this topic's title question directly.
Chameleonred5. I'm not sure you understand: This has been going on for 4 years, mate. 4 years! Not 3 months. There's so many different ways you can ask the same question during all that time. If Mojang still needs us to think of better ways to ask them about the Plugin API, then they would be the thickest people on this planet. Your argument is probably valid for some other type of discussion the likes of which I have been seeing on these forums. But you are insisting on something that simply has been done to death! And I can't think of any other way of letting you know it.
Chameleonred5. I'm not sure you understand: This has been going on for 4 years, mate. 4 years! Not 3 months. There's so many different ways you can ask the same question during all that time. If Mojang still needs us to think of better ways to ask them about the Plugin API, then they would be the thickest people on this planet. Your argument is probably valid for some other type of discussion the likes of which I have been seeing on these forums. But you are insisting on something that simply has been done to death! And I can't think of any other way of letting you know it.
I've read through this topic. I know how long this has been happening. And you don't seem to understand what I'm trying to convey, or if you do, you're dismissing it for reasons that I see as missing something I've already said.
I've had problems where I fail to convey something to someone before. Could be I have a few assumptions that have not been expressed. I don't know where I haven't expressed them, though. I also think you have a few assumptions that are inherent in what you have said that are faulty, and I also think you have more assumptions that I don't see. Either way, there is a failure to communicate something.
I believe it is a difference in assumptions about the way things are. Therefore our logic, based on them, is not going to mix. I would love to try and figure out exactly what's going on, but I'm tired of exerting effort in an attempt to push others into exerting effort while getting no results (all it would take is everyone copy/pasting this topic's link on twitter, for crying out loud). Good luck with the fairly predictable outcome of this topic.
Meanwhile, we saw a test of model definition files in the latest snapshot. I'm not sure what more proof you really need that the Plugin* API is being worked on than that.
To the people who have been saying that Mojang should be taking time to work on the game and to stabilize things before the API, I would like to point out that the API has been planned for nearly 4 years now. 4 years and they haven't even gotten anything done on it yet. That's just a bit too much if you ask me. I bet you that another 4 years will pass and there wont be any progress on the API.
I'm still of the opinion that it seems rather obvious that Mojang must be working on the API, at least to an extent.
I wonder if Mojang themselves will be free of all the flak they are currently receiving when it gets to the point when they'll be more like modders. A lot of people moan that the constant updates break mods, if that's the case the modders should up their game a little. A bit of a tangent from my original point, whatever that was...
There's so much I can say in my criticism of Mojang stance regarding game modding. I can't fault them for breaking mods with every update when they aren't responsible for maintaining Forge. Neither I can blame them when modders who hack the code directly see their mod break with a new update, because they are in clear infringement of the game copyright.
But while all this illustrate the importance of an official mod api, I can't see Mojang changing their development strategy with the purpose of becoming more, generally speaking, hack-friendly (if I understood your post correctly?). If they developed with a mind on the current status of minecraft modding they would not be able to do much in terms of code changes. And that's even worse than no mods support. The game code has to grow and better itself, not stagnate.
I agree. That distinction in terms of what the Plugin API will allow modders to do, is rather unimportant. Mods will most probably still be called mods (and modders still called modders), just like they are in thousands of other games offering similar APIs. Many people would be amused if they heard of the Ars Magica plugin for Minecraft. And would most definitely laugh if they learned it was done by the pluginator Mithion.
The term plugin is being taken too seriously. And the distinction with the word mod is becoming a tad too pedantic. In the gaming industry, the word plugin has very little use. Regardless of what Mojang decided to call the API, there is no reason to make a distinction between both words. The serve the exact same purpose in an game industry with thousands of other games with similar APIs almost all understood as being modding APIs.
A mod modifies the look or behavior of the game. That's what a mod does. I'm still trying to understand where did people get this idea that the word modification should be applied to the game code.
I would say no. Nearly all mods are going to require a complete rewrite. You may be able to reuse some 'black box' code, but anything that interacts with the system will need to be rewritten.
While technically and semantically correct, you are missing the point. When most players use the term "mod" they actually mean "3rd party extended content for Minecraft".
In other words, the "mod API" and "plug-in API" is the same thing within the Minecraft fan community. If Jeb wants to go around correcting people and insisting upon the use of the term "plug-in", more power to him. Besides, since the creation of ModLoader as well as FML, most "mods" have been largely plug-ins anyway in the strict sense of the word, even though they are extensions. The boundary pushing mods will actually modify base code of Minecraft, but the need to actually do that is diminishing as well.
No, cubic chunks will not impact the release of the API, or at least the implementation of cubic chunks will not be necessary before the API is released. That would mainly impact world generation or chunk generation routines that would be impacted by a major format change in the internal data structures, but for things that add new blocks or change things that have no part of the world generation routines it wouldn't matter at all.
There are a whole bunch of misconceptions about what is necessary for the API, and it doesn't really need to be all that complicated. A very simple API can and IMHO should be released that could evolve with a dialog between the plug-in developers and Mojang about what additional features could be added over time. I think it is utterly boneheaded to think that the API could be delivered as if Moses descended from Mount Sinai with the tablets containing the full API specification that will be the one true word of Notch and never be changed again in the future.
Part of what the complaint here is that there are several people who have already developed API libraries for Minecraft including plug-in loaders that are widely used by a great many players. If it has been implemented by several people, why is it so hard to simply copy the code or do something similar?
Version 2.1 now updated for MC 1.6.2
People keep moaning about the time it's taking for Mojang to implement the API, if they were to suddenly divert even 1 member of the team to work on re-writing the game to allow for cubic chunks, how would that not slow things down even further?
I think Mojang would prefer to make an API that doesn't break, and has few if any conflicts. Having said that, after Forge updating to 1.8, Forge mods should no longer conflict anyway, so maybe people will moan a little less.
I was under the impression that plugins are to be accessible from within the launcher, or maybe even the game itself; and possibly more importantly will be vetted by Mojang for quality, conflicts, and duplication.
Where are these suggestions going? Where are these complaints going? Are they going directly to everyone at Mojang? Are they being persistently and logically maintained? Or are they just being stuck on these forums, where we have no confirmation that Mojang actually looks at it?
Not to mention the only thing I'm suggesting is that we get an answer to a question, not asking for a suggestion to be put in the game. Fairly sure Mojang would be more receptive to that. And if not, you get your answer anyways through the deliberate dodge of a direct series of questions.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
Yes. Most of what you see in these forums is either echoed on other media, or a result of discussions elsewhere. Mojang is well aware at both the criticism and the praise their game or they themselves get.
Your wording does not suggest direct communication. It suggests other forums that this stuff is on that Mojang could happen to look at, but we have no confirmation that they do.
I've noticed that when people do have a more direct way, like twitter, they settle for what are apparently weasel words. But since you all have figured it out or whatever, better questions can be asked.
You may have reached a conclusion here, and you are creating and maintaining very nice evidence for it, but a confirmation of it would be nice.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
These forums are them too a community of Minecraft players. Debates like these help cement opinions or behaviors which are then echoed on more "official" communities, sometimes even by readers who didn't participate in the debate. As I said, Mojang is fully aware of the criticism and the displeasure of some players concerning the delay of the Plugin API. This thread is just another one discussing this issue with fellow players.
Slabs- Bring easily place able upside down slabs back to minecraft!
Whether or not Mojang decides to break mods due to an update, it doesn't matter. It is not Mojang's responsibility to make every mod compatible with every single update the game makes. However, if the API happens to come along, at that point it is then Mojang's responsibility to create adequate compatibility with plugins designed for the API.
And this is my problem. I quote myself: "I've noticed that when people do have a more direct way, like twitter, they settle for what are apparently weasel words. But since you all have figured it out or whatever, better questions can be asked."
Regardless of whether or not they're aware of it, they have not actually said anything that you've found satisfactory, and they have not said anything that I think truly confirms that the Mod API will not come out. Asking them directly with better questions than "when is it coming out" is supposed to get them to actually confirm/deny this topic's title question directly.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
Except we *do* have an API, which is (are actually) the various modding systems. We'd be far better off with a temporary API with *some* stability, even if Mojang plans to nuke it when they've got a permanent API ready to go. Yes, it's more work for Mojang, but the work saved for modders would vastly exceed the work put in by Mojang.
Geographicraft (formerly Climate Control) - Control climate, ocean, and land sizes; stop chunk walls; put modded biomes into Default worlds, and more!
RTG plus - All the beautiful terrain of RTG, plus varied and beautiful trees and forests.
Adding to the reply Zeno410 just gave, I will also say that there is a strong misconception that a Plugin API must be something that should be only developed after the code reaches some unspoken goal. This is simply not true. It makes no sense whatsoever in a programming language so deeply embedded in the Object Oriented Programming paradigm. Plugin APIs for these type of languages are comparatively straightforward to developed. There's a whole group of design patterns created exactly to handle code-to-code communication with the explicit goal of removing as much dependency as possible.
Very few people ever develop Plugin APIs the way Mojang says they are doing it. Many games and a whole bunch of other software is released with ready-to-use plugin APIs despite the game or software code being still young and going to face years of changes and additions (along with entire DLCs or even full expansions). If Mojang is waiting for the moment they have the right codebase before they develop the plugin API, then we will definitely never see it. There will always be changes to the code that will affect the API. Tomorrow they will be doing the exact same type of code additions and changes they are doing today and the Plugin API would simply have to adapt to those code changes. This is how EVERYONE does Plugin APIs.
The problem with Mojang and the things they are saying is that they aren't the only developers on the face of the earth who understand software development and practice it at a professional level, neither they are the only game developer coming up with a Plugin API. Heck, as Zeno says, they aren't even the only ones who have come up with a Minecraft plugin API!
Chameleonred5. I'm not sure you understand: This has been going on for 4 years, mate. 4 years! Not 3 months. There's so many different ways you can ask the same question during all that time. If Mojang still needs us to think of better ways to ask them about the Plugin API, then they would be the thickest people on this planet. Your argument is probably valid for some other type of discussion the likes of which I have been seeing on these forums. But you are insisting on something that simply has been done to death! And I can't think of any other way of letting you know it.
I've read through this topic. I know how long this has been happening. And you don't seem to understand what I'm trying to convey, or if you do, you're dismissing it for reasons that I see as missing something I've already said.
I've had problems where I fail to convey something to someone before. Could be I have a few assumptions that have not been expressed. I don't know where I haven't expressed them, though. I also think you have a few assumptions that are inherent in what you have said that are faulty, and I also think you have more assumptions that I don't see. Either way, there is a failure to communicate something.
I believe it is a difference in assumptions about the way things are. Therefore our logic, based on them, is not going to mix. I would love to try and figure out exactly what's going on, but I'm tired of exerting effort in an attempt to push others into exerting effort while getting no results (all it would take is everyone copy/pasting this topic's link on twitter, for crying out loud). Good luck with the fairly predictable outcome of this topic.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
*Plugin not Mod. This difference does matter.