EvilSeph and one other dev quit because they couldnt stand the lackluster and lazy work ethic.
Wow, I hadn't heard that. Between this and Jeb's "technically" tweet, I'd say the API is most definitely being shelved. Especially as it sounds like they're now down to only 3 developers. Oh well.
@Zeel, very thoughtful post. Well done. I'd give you a +2 if I could.
I agree entirely on how you describe the development process of the Plugin API. Especially because it perfectly suits with Minecraft prior code which was made without thinking much on the possibility of having to provide an interface API for modders.
But here's the deal, you have as much evidence it is being developed as I have it is not. The simple matter of fact is that other then some ambiguous and inconclusive public statements and snapshot bullet points, we have no real understanding of the progress of the game feature.
I know you attribute this to the fact it is mostly backstage work. But there's also other factors that contribute to a some skepticism:
Mojang is usually very upfront about their work.
The people involved in this area of development seem to always be tied down to other equally complex minecraft coding tasks.
The Plugin API wasn't promised yesterday. It's actually 2 years old, take it or leave it. Notch brought Minecraft from the classic version on TIGForums in 2009 to the alpha version of the survival game we know today in 13 months (complete with redstone mechanics). Alone.
Dinnerbone was hired on March 2012, since then almost nothing was said about the Plugin API. The following month after he was hired, he gave a Q&A at r/minecraft. All questions were mod and plugin API related. There was no doubt on anyone's mind this former bukkit developer would be working on the Plugin API. After that Q&A we saw Dinnerbone working on anything but.
So yeah. I'm not confident at all anything of this is actually being developed, or being developed with the type of involvement such a feature would demand.
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I was trying to think of a signature and this is what came up.
If they lie a huge part of the fan base is going to be mad.
They wouldnt have announced it if its a lie, in the long run it will only hurt more then that it makes them money.
I’ve been a good boy, working on server framework stuff all day today, ....
I’m designing it to have an open API and to be pluginable, so you will be able to write your own game mods, or automated chat monitors, or whatever else, all in java. The exact API isn’t decided on yet, but it’ll be as easy as putting your class files (either in a jar, or as straight files) in the same dir as the server, then telling it what “mod” to load in the properties file
A year later:
After some internal discussion and general anxiety, we’ve arrived at a
plan for supporting mods.
In Jan 2011, Notch stated "When I get back, I’ll finish up the new launcher, then my goal is to get some early sketch of the Modding API out before GDC."
Well the Game Developers Conference came and went, No API.
In June 2011, Notch said "After 1.8, we’ll have to start crunching for the full release in November. That includes finishing up the mod api,"
Note the phrase- "Finishing up the mod api".
Yet, here we are, 2 1/2 year later, and no mod ("plugin") api in sight.
And the pattern has continued even after Notch stepped down.
Now, FOUR AND A HALF YEARS after the original announcement, there is still no API. Was it a lie? (And another lie, and another lie, and another....?) Or was it just 'miscommunication'? Who knows at this point. The only thing we do know is that there is still no api. And with that kind of track record, you'll forgive me if I don't believe it's coming until I see it firsthand.
EvilSeph and one other dev quit because they couldnt stand the lackluster and lazy work ethic.
Either cite a source or shut up, it seems to me like all you do is make up stuff and complain, all the while I have never seen you contribute to any kind of conversation. I think you have lost your right to complain.
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The problem with the truth, is that it never lies.
It wasn't a lie. Plans change is all. Priorities shift. Especially in the software industry.
Riiiiiight. Each and every time they started working on the api (even when it just needed "finishing up"), 'something' came up and made them change their plans... without them informing anyone else what that something was, or even that their plans had changed. It sounds like you're saying "They're not lying, they are just really bad at following thru with their word and/or communicating changes". As if that's any better.
Like I said, at this point I'll believe it when I see it, and not a moment before. After all, their priorities might shift, or plans might change, again (and again, and again, and again...).
I shouldn't have to cite common knowledge. EvilSeph quit and so did his other Bukkit counterpart, both stating they left for "circumstances outside of their control" which is politcal parlance for they didn't get along with other team members. Now, having that the Bukkit team had worked together for several years, it wasn't them. They WORKED, not sitting around all day.
I've been around since the beginning, my right to complain will NEVER be gone. What Notch promised people on /v/ will never be delivered.
Common knowlege? It is not common knowledge. If you can't cite a source, then you can't state it as fact.
Wait, are you saying that Jens is the first person to have said that? Or that he somehow expressed that simple and true, but tautological, statement better than millions of others before him?
Relax.
And to everyone freaking out about the Mod API:
Making conspiracy theories doesn't help anything.
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XP Guide Regardless of what change you do, no matter how small, someone will complain. - Jens Bergensten If you want me to see your reply, make sure to quote my post in your reply.
Is that last bit true? Because I would have thought, worst case scenario, an API that needs updating will work the same way all the updates to Minecraft have been done so far. It hasn't been very smooth, but the modding community seems to have managed to thrive regardless. An API just means every mod will break only every other official update.
Well, the mods break every update not because the programming actually changes, but just because the obfuscator changes the name. Changing the API would be like the 1.6 -> 1.7 update, with lots of actual coding changes, which has indeed frozen out mods for 3 months and counting.
P.S. and why can't they get an obfuscator that keeps existing names? That's relatively simple - far simpler than Forge's deobfuscation - and would fix 80% of the problems with breaking mods.
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Geographicraft (formerly Climate Control) - Control climate, ocean, and land sizes; stop chunk walls; put modded biomes into Default worlds, and more!
RTG plus - All the beautiful terrain of RTG, plus varied and beautiful trees and forests.
EvilSeph and one other dev quit because they couldnt stand the lackluster and lazy work ethic.
Yeah, I'd like to see your source please.
The source that I have seems to have say something different...
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XP Guide Regardless of what change you do, no matter how small, someone will complain. - Jens Bergensten If you want me to see your reply, make sure to quote my post in your reply.
Do you not know how to read between the lines? When someone says the exact sames line over and over, they are trying to be diplomatic. He quit a "golden" job to become unemployed and return to Bukkit modding. The only time people do that is when they cant take something at their current job.
You're just making a conspiracy theory. You provided no actual proof that he had left Mojang due to "circumstances out of his control". If you want me to even start believing you, you got to provide a link.
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XP Guide Regardless of what change you do, no matter how small, someone will complain. - Jens Bergensten If you want me to see your reply, make sure to quote my post in your reply.
Anyways, what's wrong with people defending a company that continually puts out free updates? There are very few companies that do such, and there are many more that don't deserve the continued purchases of their games, mainly because they solely focus on profit, instead of improving their product for the sake of it.
Look at my source for Tahg. It's the same thing, just less diplomatic.
It's okay, the Defenders have always been white knighting this game. It's okay, I know you love the game so I'll let you be.
You should generally not have to make your readers google an entire quote... but whatever.
Oh so now we're on to the white knight thing? I'm not even defending the game this time. It seems like I am the last person on this miserable forum who actually likes minecraft. Everyone else seems to "like" minecraft but they find a way to complain about it at every turn and antagonize those who are content.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
XP Guide Regardless of what change you do, no matter how small, someone will complain. - Jens Bergensten If you want me to see your reply, make sure to quote my post in your reply.
Either cite a source or shut up, it seems to me like all you do is make up stuff and complain, all the while I have never seen you contribute to any kind of conversation. I think you have lost your right to complain.
He means EvilSeph and Tahg. Both bukkit developers. Tahg explicitly said he left mojang due to differences in the direction of the game and constant changes of focus (source). I too wouldn't be surprised EvilSeph left for similar reasons. It's a common occurrence when the farewell message includes such laconic words as "pursuing other interests".
But you are right that on the particular case of Seph, there is no source. I would however wait a bit more. It's not uncommon for old employees to talk about their experiences and blow the lid on what people thought was a good relationship.
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I was trying to think of a signature and this is what came up.
It seems like I am the last person on this miserable forum who actually likes minecraft. Everyone else seems to "like" minecraft but they find a way to complain about it at every turn and antagonize those who are content.
No, you are not the only person who likes Minecraft. The vast majority of people in here like Minecraft. A lot. But you are indeed confusing complaining with dislike. Which aren't really the same thing. I love my wife, but complain a lot about her. Not as much as she complains about me, I'm sure. But she loves me too. Of that I'm sure.
People complain because that's what people do. Among other things, we complain when we feel the need for it. And none of it is revealing of a dislike for something. In fact, disliking a computer game is a almost always assured you stop playing it and coming to forums to discuss it. People who don't like Minecraft aren't here to tell you about it.
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I was trying to think of a signature and this is what came up.
Anyways, what's wrong with people defending a company that continually puts out free updates? There are very few companies that do such, and there are many more that don't deserve the continued purchases of their games, mainly because they solely focus on profit, instead of improving their product for the sake of it.
Just because your crap is free doesn't mean we have to say it's ice cream.
Also, Mojang might be super generous and good. So thank Carl Manneh for that. The devs get a paycheck.
He means EvilSeph and Tahg. Both bukkit developers. Tahg explicitly said he left mojang due to differences in the direction of the game and constant changes of focus (source). I too wouldn't be surprised EvilSeph left for similar reasons. It's a common occurrence when the farewell message includes such laconic words as "pursuing other interests".
But you are right that on the particular case of Seph, there is no source. I would however wait a bit more. It's not uncommon for old employees to talk about their experiences and blow the lid on what people thought was a good relationship.
You see? Finally someone sends a link. THAT is citing a source, not putting a quote from it in quotation marks, that is just being bigoted and refusing to provide a proper source.
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The problem with the truth, is that it never lies.
It seems like I am the last person on this miserable forum who actually likes minecraft. Everyone else seems to "like" minecraft but they find a way to complain about it at every turn and antagonize those who are content.
Marfig already stated it better than I could, but just to add my own clarification that complaining about something doesn't mean we don't like it:
We actually complain about the stuff the devs do because we like Minecraft. Think about it... If I hated the game, I wouldn't play it, and if I didn't play it, why would I be on these boards, or care one wit about how parts of it are being developed (or aren't, as the case may be)? I wouldn't.
It is precisely because I like this game, that I have strong feelings toward the people that are in charge of updating it. When they do things that I don't like, I feel the need to complain. When they do things I approve of, I comment on that as well. It is my love for this game that keeps me participating as an active member of these forums. More people really need to understand this.
Wow, I hadn't heard that. Between this and Jeb's "technically" tweet, I'd say the API is most definitely being shelved. Especially as it sounds like they're now down to only 3 developers. Oh well.
I agree entirely on how you describe the development process of the Plugin API. Especially because it perfectly suits with Minecraft prior code which was made without thinking much on the possibility of having to provide an interface API for modders.
But here's the deal, you have as much evidence it is being developed as I have it is not. The simple matter of fact is that other then some ambiguous and inconclusive public statements and snapshot bullet points, we have no real understanding of the progress of the game feature.
I know you attribute this to the fact it is mostly backstage work. But there's also other factors that contribute to a some skepticism:
Well, Notch first announced the mod API back in July 2009 (http://notch.tumblr.com/post/140146373/lua-or-java-api):
That was Waaaaaaaay back in the 'Classic' days, long before indev, infdev or even Alpha, much less Beta.
A year later, Notch said (http://notch.tumblr.com/post/772794270/server-scripting)
A year later:
In Jan 2011, Notch stated "When I get back, I’ll finish up the new launcher, then my goal is to get some early sketch of the Modding API out before GDC."
Well the Game Developers Conference came and went, No API.
In June 2011, Notch said "After 1.8, we’ll have to start crunching for the full release in November. That includes finishing up the mod api,"
Note the phrase- "Finishing up the mod api".
Yet, here we are, 2 1/2 year later, and no mod ("plugin") api in sight.
And the pattern has continued even after Notch stepped down.
Now, FOUR AND A HALF YEARS after the original announcement, there is still no API. Was it a lie? (And another lie, and another lie, and another....?) Or was it just 'miscommunication'? Who knows at this point. The only thing we do know is that there is still no api. And with that kind of track record, you'll forgive me if I don't believe it's coming until I see it firsthand.
Either cite a source or shut up, it seems to me like all you do is make up stuff and complain, all the while I have never seen you contribute to any kind of conversation. I think you have lost your right to complain.
Riiiiiight. Each and every time they started working on the api (even when it just needed "finishing up"), 'something' came up and made them change their plans... without them informing anyone else what that something was, or even that their plans had changed. It sounds like you're saying "They're not lying, they are just really bad at following thru with their word and/or communicating changes". As if that's any better.
Like I said, at this point I'll believe it when I see it, and not a moment before. After all, their priorities might shift, or plans might change, again (and again, and again, and again...).
Common knowlege? It is not common knowledge. If you can't cite a source, then you can't state it as fact.
Relax.
And to everyone freaking out about the Mod API:
Making conspiracy theories doesn't help anything.
Regardless of what change you do, no matter how small, someone will complain. - Jens Bergensten
If you want me to see your reply, make sure to quote my post in your reply.
Well, the mods break every update not because the programming actually changes, but just because the obfuscator changes the name. Changing the API would be like the 1.6 -> 1.7 update, with lots of actual coding changes, which has indeed frozen out mods for 3 months and counting.
P.S. and why can't they get an obfuscator that keeps existing names? That's relatively simple - far simpler than Forge's deobfuscation - and would fix 80% of the problems with breaking mods.
Geographicraft (formerly Climate Control) - Control climate, ocean, and land sizes; stop chunk walls; put modded biomes into Default worlds, and more!
RTG plus - All the beautiful terrain of RTG, plus varied and beautiful trees and forests.
Yeah, I'd like to see your source please.
The source that I have seems to have say something different...
Regardless of what change you do, no matter how small, someone will complain. - Jens Bergensten
If you want me to see your reply, make sure to quote my post in your reply.
You're just making a conspiracy theory. You provided no actual proof that he had left Mojang due to "circumstances out of his control". If you want me to even start believing you, you got to provide a link.
Regardless of what change you do, no matter how small, someone will complain. - Jens Bergensten
If you want me to see your reply, make sure to quote my post in your reply.
That's not white knighting.
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/white-knight
Anyways, what's wrong with people defending a company that continually puts out free updates? There are very few companies that do such, and there are many more that don't deserve the continued purchases of their games, mainly because they solely focus on profit, instead of improving their product for the sake of it.
...but that's just like, my opinion, man.
You should generally not have to make your readers google an entire quote... but whatever.
Oh so now we're on to the white knight thing? I'm not even defending the game this time. It seems like I am the last person on this miserable forum who actually likes minecraft. Everyone else seems to "like" minecraft but they find a way to complain about it at every turn and antagonize those who are content.
Regardless of what change you do, no matter how small, someone will complain. - Jens Bergensten
If you want me to see your reply, make sure to quote my post in your reply.
He means EvilSeph and Tahg. Both bukkit developers. Tahg explicitly said he left mojang due to differences in the direction of the game and constant changes of focus (source). I too wouldn't be surprised EvilSeph left for similar reasons. It's a common occurrence when the farewell message includes such laconic words as "pursuing other interests".
But you are right that on the particular case of Seph, there is no source. I would however wait a bit more. It's not uncommon for old employees to talk about their experiences and blow the lid on what people thought was a good relationship.
No, you are not the only person who likes Minecraft. The vast majority of people in here like Minecraft. A lot. But you are indeed confusing complaining with dislike. Which aren't really the same thing. I love my wife, but complain a lot about her. Not as much as she complains about me, I'm sure. But she loves me too. Of that I'm sure.
People complain because that's what people do. Among other things, we complain when we feel the need for it. And none of it is revealing of a dislike for something. In fact, disliking a computer game is a almost always assured you stop playing it and coming to forums to discuss it. People who don't like Minecraft aren't here to tell you about it.
Just because your crap is free doesn't mean we have to say it's ice cream.
Also, Mojang might be super generous and good. So thank Carl Manneh for that. The devs get a paycheck.
Want to play Minecraft SSP like Spaceboot1? Try my modpack, all mods made by me, Spaceboot1!
Just because the free icecream is crap doesn't mean you are entitled to another one.
And the dev's paycheck is between them and Mojang. You already got what you paid for.
You see? Finally someone sends a link. THAT is citing a source, not putting a quote from it in quotation marks, that is just being bigoted and refusing to provide a proper source.
We actually complain about the stuff the devs do because we like Minecraft. Think about it... If I hated the game, I wouldn't play it, and if I didn't play it, why would I be on these boards, or care one wit about how parts of it are being developed (or aren't, as the case may be)? I wouldn't.
It is precisely because I like this game, that I have strong feelings toward the people that are in charge of updating it. When they do things that I don't like, I feel the need to complain. When they do things I approve of, I comment on that as well. It is my love for this game that keeps me participating as an active member of these forums. More people really need to understand this.