Forgive me for being n00b, but what's the difference?
None much in the context of Minecraft. They were just being pedantic.
If you want to know about the semantics of both words, a mod may imply no support from the main program, meaning it hacks its way into the program in order to change its behavior (they modify the program). Whereas a plugin always implies direct support from the main program that has the necessary programming hooks that modders can use to change its behavior (they plug in to the program).
But in the context of gameplaying, you will rarely address a mod as being a plugin. Just feels weird, and will get a few laughs, to say Thaumcraft plugin, or that Azanor is a pluguiner, instead of a Azanor is a modder.
You must be a little new here, mods break with every update because the game code is changed and therefore the mods are compiled over old code and have to be re-written.
You have to be new here if you think that is the same of what happened in the 1.7.2 update. In case you didn't read it, or forgot, let me remind you. the 1.7.2 update broke all mod support by changing core aspects of the game that invalidated all the previous work on MCP. This only happened once before that (the version of which I can't remember). And the reason for this was explicitly said by Mojang to pave the way for the plugin api. Every other update in Minecraft history, since MCP was first released, never compromised MCP for more than a few days.
They have no reason to break mods per say but it simply happens as a consequence of the bytecode obfuscation process as well as possible minor or major changes to the source code itself. Modders need to update their mods to the new version by adapting to possible source code logic changes as well as figuring out the new class names and such. The reason 1.7 was a big deal was, like hinted at above, that major rewrites of many sub-systems happened. The source code is re-obfuscated on every update and that is easy to get around in itself, but when there are major rewrites then modders will also need to study the new procedures and make their mods fit into the puzzle, that alone can and often does take a lot of time and work.
Keep in mind though, people aren't supposed to be modding the game in the first place without the developer support. When someone decides to open up someone's else work by reverse engineering it and modifying it or adding to its foundation it becomes laughable when people then get upset when the new changes released by the developer of the source code break said modifications. Without an interface and developer support mods basically have zero right to exist, they just do and modders have to work with what they got because the developer has no interest or reason to care about the modifications being made.
Any way, Dinnerbone has explicitly said more than once that the plugin interface is on its way. Being one of the main programmers of the game gives his words a lot more weight than ours. Claiming his words as wrong is nothing but speculation and conspiracy theories at this point in time.
None much in the context of Minecraft. They were just being pedantic.
If you want to know about the semantics of both words, a mod may imply no support from the main program, meaning it hacks its way into the program in order to change its behavior. Whereas a plugin always implies direct support from the main program that has the necessary programming hooks that modders can use to change its behavior.
But in the context of gameplaying, you will rarely address a mod as being a plugin. Just feels weird, and will get a few laughs, to say Thaumcraft plugin, or that Azanor is a pluguiner, instead of a Azanor is a modder.
You have to be new here if you think that is the same of what happened in the 1.7.2 update. In case you didn't read it, or forgot, let me remind you. the 1.7.2 update broke all mod support by changing core aspects of the game that invalidated all the previous work on MCP. This only happened once before that. All other updates never compromised MCP for more than a couple of days.
And as I said, in my post which you apparently neglected to read, that is because they rewrote a lot of code, including the rendering engine. If they had started on the Mod API in the main branch then modders would already be able to see traces of it. So while they are paving the way in the main branch so when it is completed they can add it without issues, they are not working on it in there.
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The problem with the truth, is that it never lies.
And as I said, in my post which you apparently neglected to read, that is because they rewrote a lot of code, including the rendering engine. If they had started on the Mod API in the main branch then modders would already be able to see traces of it. So while they are paving the way in the main branch so when it is completed they can add it without issues, they are not working on it in there.
The new naming mechanism that broke mod support in 1.7.2 has nothing to do with the rendering engine. And if it did, Mojang would have a serious dependency problem on their hands, like few I ever saw on a game programmed in a OOP language.
It seems to me you are a little green on these matters and are just arguing for argument sake, You are free to go on, if you want. But you are just being a distraction from the main discussion.
The main issue is that people expect them to just drop any updates and work only on the Plugin API until it is done. it is not going to happen, and to expect it to is both unreasonable and flawed in logic.
Well I don't expect them to do that, but I wish they did. The thing about a mod API is, once it's out, instead of a couple people making updates, you will have hundreds. Hundreds of crappy, buggy updates, but with a few diamonds among them, which is better than what we're getting currently.
What do you people think Grum and EvilSeph have been doing? Sitting there looking at computer screens all day?
Mostly, yes. They're human too, and if I was hired by Mojang, I probably wouldn't have a lot of motivation to work my butt off. I'd be playing Minecraft all day, and I'd fix and update only the things that bothered me personally in the course of my own gameplay.
Why do you guys thing Searge was hired?
To delay mod development. I don't blame them though. Since the beginning of Minecraft, people have been talking about the danger of forking. And that's what happened to Infiniminer, they lost control of their game to the modders.
Just because they aren't giving us news doesn't mean it isn't being made. Have you ever thought that the reason they aren't giving us news is precisely because of the way this community is?
My impression of Mojang is that they're quite transparent, so if we don't hear about them working on something, it probably means they aren't working on it. Usually they brag about what they're doing.
Plugin API, because a Mod API implies they are going to let people modify the classes of the game; they are not. It's called a plugin API because you will hook onto the API, rather than overwriting the game's code with your own.
They're working on it. Sometimes I think some of you completely ignore changes made to the game. The big singleplayer/multiplayer merge, the shader system, the transparency fixes, the special packet (if you don't know what packet, you don't know what you're talking about), the attribute system (which already exists), the new item id system which uses prefixes, the UUID system for both players and entities...
The list goes on and on.
You can't expect them to just drop everything and only work on the API. They are a business, and they need to make a continual profit to justify neverending free updates. Yes, people have suggested they do this. Yes, that is a terrible idea.
They're being quiet about it because the last few times they mentioned it, people made a big deal out of them not hitting a deadline, even though most of those times there was no set deadline. They're quiet because people rage about it, which is entirely ridiculous.
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I'm worried that by the time it's finally released, many of the major plugin developers will have moved on, and won't have the time to port. I can port my stuff, but there a few larger 3rd party ones I depend on are already starting to show signs of not keeping up. Mojang needs to start thinking endgame as the community starts to shrink. And that should center on the API.
What I'm wondering is how much we will be able to change in the game; for example, change the way terrain/chunks are generated as I do with a mod I made myself (most recently, raising the ground level by 128 blocks), which also required many other classes be changed to account for this; for example, altitude-specific mobs needed their ranges adjusted. Or replacing the anvil repair system with the one currently used (prior to the recent snapshots) as I want indefinite repairs at a fixed cost and repair cost based on the enchantments (an armor/tools mod I use depends on this to prevent you from making ridiculously overpowered stuff or repairing them too easily, since they are more powerful than diamond and this should be offset to make it balanced). Or even changing the world height limit, etc (which requires a lot of major changes; in other words, "how much will be be able to change" really means "how fundamentally will we be able to modify the game?").
It would be nice if they took a more active stance on the topic, and really spoke more about how the changes they are implementing are making progress toward the API goal. It's not that I don't believe there;s been any progress, it's just that without some real evidence that they are taking this goal seriously, I can't really expect that the API is something we are ever actually likely to see come to fruition.
It concerns me that they're not discussing the mod API, because it means they're not getting feedback from the mod community. There's a lot of issues with designing a big complex API like this, and there needs to be a lot of feedback to fit it to the needs of the mod community. If it just comes out of essentially a secluded section of Mojang it's almost certain to be a poor API. APIs, by their nature, are hard to change and they need to be done right the first time.
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The main issue is that people expect them to just drop any updates and work only on the Plugin API until it is done. it is not going to happen, and to expect it to is both unreasonable and flawed in logic. What do you people think Grum and EvilSeph have been doing? Sitting there looking at computer screens all day? Why do you guys thing Searge was hired? Just because they aren't giving us news doesn't mean it isn't being made. Have you ever thought that the reason they aren't giving us news is precisely because of the way this community is? I believe Jeb_ said it best: https://twitter.com/...564096019189760
No one could have said it better, that is my new sig.
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XP Guide Regardless of what change you do, no matter how small, someone will complain. - Jens Bergensten If you want me to see your reply, make sure to quote my post in your reply.
No one could have said it better, that is my new sig.
It actually probably could have been a lot better. I would make a follow-up post that better expresses my feelings, but since I am spread rather thin across my Minecraft server and school as it is, I don't have the time for many intricate forum arguments anymore.
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The problem with the truth, is that it never lies.
No one could have said it better, that is my new sig.
Wait, are you saying that Jens is the first person to have said that? Or that he somehow expressed that simple and true, but tautological, statement better than millions of others before him?
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I was trying to think of a signature and this is what came up.
Many of you are forgetting a very important point - the API is not visible to the players.
What I mean is that the API is there for developers to use, it's a way to interface with the game without actually changing its code. Thus most of the changes required to create a working API are similarly invisible to most players. Working on the API at this point really just means "refactoring" which is a fancy programming word that means 'rewrite it in a more logical/efficient/sane way'. For the most part refactoring produces almost no noticeable change to the actual application in question beyond performance increases. But from a programming standpoint it makes everything a whole lot simpler to deal with.
At this stage in development the API is really just the end goal of all the refactoring they are doing now. Writing the actual API layer is the easy part. So while we see some little visible changes that happen as side effects of refactoring, it looks like the progress is incredibly slow. The truth is that the progress being made is massive - it just doesn't change the way the game is played in a very direct way.
When the API is done the entire code base of Minecraft will be restructured, instead of the many blobs of functionality that Notch wrote to make the game work, everything will be reorganized into layers of APIs. While the vanilla game will not actually appear to be different, the way it all works under the hood is all different. With layers of API it means that the game its self is merely a plugin on top of the engine, world gen a plugin on top of that, enchanting, mobs, items - all packaged into plugins on top of lower level plugins. This means not only can developers add to the game, they can disable or replace anything at will. Again, from the top it looks like the same game - and it is - but the way it is structured allows for the kind of changes we all want to see from our favorite mod makers when they move to plugins.
So yes, it is still being developed, but don't expect any big new until it's actually almost done - until then the progress is pretty darn boring.
It concerns me that they're not discussing the mod API, because it means they're not getting feedback from the mod community. There's a lot of issues with designing a big complex API like this, and there needs to be a lot of feedback to fit it to the needs of the mod community. If it just comes out of essentially a secluded section of Mojang it's almost certain to be a poor API. APIs, by their nature, are hard to change and they need to be done right the first time.
Is that last bit true? Because I would have thought, worst case scenario, an API that needs updating will work the same way all the updates to Minecraft have been done so far. It hasn't been very smooth, but the modding community seems to have managed to thrive regardless. An API just means every mod will break only every other official update.
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None much in the context of Minecraft. They were just being pedantic.
If you want to know about the semantics of both words, a mod may imply no support from the main program, meaning it hacks its way into the program in order to change its behavior (they modify the program). Whereas a plugin always implies direct support from the main program that has the necessary programming hooks that modders can use to change its behavior (they plug in to the program).
But in the context of gameplaying, you will rarely address a mod as being a plugin. Just feels weird, and will get a few laughs, to say Thaumcraft plugin, or that Azanor is a pluguiner, instead of a Azanor is a modder.
You have to be new here if you think that is the same of what happened in the 1.7.2 update. In case you didn't read it, or forgot, let me remind you. the 1.7.2 update broke all mod support by changing core aspects of the game that invalidated all the previous work on MCP. This only happened once before that (the version of which I can't remember). And the reason for this was explicitly said by Mojang to pave the way for the plugin api. Every other update in Minecraft history, since MCP was first released, never compromised MCP for more than a few days.
Keep in mind though, people aren't supposed to be modding the game in the first place without the developer support. When someone decides to open up someone's else work by reverse engineering it and modifying it or adding to its foundation it becomes laughable when people then get upset when the new changes released by the developer of the source code break said modifications. Without an interface and developer support mods basically have zero right to exist, they just do and modders have to work with what they got because the developer has no interest or reason to care about the modifications being made.
Any way, Dinnerbone has explicitly said more than once that the plugin interface is on its way. Being one of the main programmers of the game gives his words a lot more weight than ours. Claiming his words as wrong is nothing but speculation and conspiracy theories at this point in time.
And as I said, in my post which you apparently neglected to read, that is because they rewrote a lot of code, including the rendering engine. If they had started on the Mod API in the main branch then modders would already be able to see traces of it. So while they are paving the way in the main branch so when it is completed they can add it without issues, they are not working on it in there.
The new naming mechanism that broke mod support in 1.7.2 has nothing to do with the rendering engine. And if it did, Mojang would have a serious dependency problem on their hands, like few I ever saw on a game programmed in a OOP language.
It seems to me you are a little green on these matters and are just arguing for argument sake, You are free to go on, if you want. But you are just being a distraction from the main discussion.
Well I don't expect them to do that, but I wish they did. The thing about a mod API is, once it's out, instead of a couple people making updates, you will have hundreds. Hundreds of crappy, buggy updates, but with a few diamonds among them, which is better than what we're getting currently.
Mostly, yes. They're human too, and if I was hired by Mojang, I probably wouldn't have a lot of motivation to work my butt off. I'd be playing Minecraft all day, and I'd fix and update only the things that bothered me personally in the course of my own gameplay.
To delay mod development. I don't blame them though. Since the beginning of Minecraft, people have been talking about the danger of forking. And that's what happened to Infiniminer, they lost control of their game to the modders.
My impression of Mojang is that they're quite transparent, so if we don't hear about them working on something, it probably means they aren't working on it. Usually they brag about what they're doing.
That just makes me cringe. I love me some Jens, but he never even considered that maybe he could have made a bad choice?
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They're working on it. Sometimes I think some of you completely ignore changes made to the game. The big singleplayer/multiplayer merge, the shader system, the transparency fixes, the special packet (if you don't know what packet, you don't know what you're talking about), the attribute system (which already exists), the new item id system which uses prefixes, the UUID system for both players and entities...
The list goes on and on.
You can't expect them to just drop everything and only work on the API. They are a business, and they need to make a continual profit to justify neverending free updates. Yes, people have suggested they do this. Yes, that is a terrible idea.
They're being quiet about it because the last few times they mentioned it, people made a big deal out of them not hitting a deadline, even though most of those times there was no set deadline. They're quiet because people rage about it, which is entirely ridiculous.
...but that's just like, my opinion, man.
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Not if he had to use the word "technically." At this point, I'd bet good diamonds it'll never make it out the door.
"Technically" the Dire Straights weren't a rock band, but a group of friends. "Technically" water flows up.
It concerns me that they're not discussing the mod API, because it means they're not getting feedback from the mod community. There's a lot of issues with designing a big complex API like this, and there needs to be a lot of feedback to fit it to the needs of the mod community. If it just comes out of essentially a secluded section of Mojang it's almost certain to be a poor API. APIs, by their nature, are hard to change and they need to be done right the first time.
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LOL, IronMagnus calling himself a n00b.
No one could have said it better, that is my new sig.
Regardless of what change you do, no matter how small, someone will complain. - Jens Bergensten
If you want me to see your reply, make sure to quote my post in your reply.
It actually probably could have been a lot better. I would make a follow-up post that better expresses my feelings, but since I am spread rather thin across my Minecraft server and school as it is, I don't have the time for many intricate forum arguments anymore.
Wait, are you saying that Jens is the first person to have said that? Or that he somehow expressed that simple and true, but tautological, statement better than millions of others before him?
What I mean is that the API is there for developers to use, it's a way to interface with the game without actually changing its code. Thus most of the changes required to create a working API are similarly invisible to most players. Working on the API at this point really just means "refactoring" which is a fancy programming word that means 'rewrite it in a more logical/efficient/sane way'. For the most part refactoring produces almost no noticeable change to the actual application in question beyond performance increases. But from a programming standpoint it makes everything a whole lot simpler to deal with.
At this stage in development the API is really just the end goal of all the refactoring they are doing now. Writing the actual API layer is the easy part. So while we see some little visible changes that happen as side effects of refactoring, it looks like the progress is incredibly slow. The truth is that the progress being made is massive - it just doesn't change the way the game is played in a very direct way.
When the API is done the entire code base of Minecraft will be restructured, instead of the many blobs of functionality that Notch wrote to make the game work, everything will be reorganized into layers of APIs. While the vanilla game will not actually appear to be different, the way it all works under the hood is all different. With layers of API it means that the game its self is merely a plugin on top of the engine, world gen a plugin on top of that, enchanting, mobs, items - all packaged into plugins on top of lower level plugins. This means not only can developers add to the game, they can disable or replace anything at will. Again, from the top it looks like the same game - and it is - but the way it is structured allows for the kind of changes we all want to see from our favorite mod makers when they move to plugins.
So yes, it is still being developed, but don't expect any big new until it's actually almost done - until then the progress is pretty darn boring.
Source?
Is that last bit true? Because I would have thought, worst case scenario, an API that needs updating will work the same way all the updates to Minecraft have been done so far. It hasn't been very smooth, but the modding community seems to have managed to thrive regardless. An API just means every mod will break only every other official update.
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