It's not an OCD-based mental problem; it's just logic. Why take 20 seconds to do "A" when I can do "A" in 12 seconds by some other means? There's just no reason. Min-maxing is important to the way many things in the world work - especially when designing and engineering things.
I mean, we could be living in caves, roasting scavenged meat over open fires. Min-maxers are the reason we roast mass-produced meat in electric ovens.
You sound really unreasonable, and illogical. Oh, and any resemblance to a "freaking programmed robot" is purely unintentional - an intelligent, efficient human has strong logic in common with computers, but that's where the similarity ends. If you have a problem with logic and efficiency, then I would suggest that you are in the minority, and you are wrong.
I strongly prefer to not do something illogical. Taking more time to travel from point A to point B with a minimal difference in effort is illogical, therefore I prefer not to do it, therefore horses are better, therefore minecarts have no place in a civilized post-horse world, at least if the world is run by a thinking, logical man.
There are exceptions, as almost-always. Minecarts with TNT have a pretty cool bug where they're stronger than intended, for example. Minecarts have a place in some redstone devices. However, on the basis of logic, and by the logic of min-maxing, their purpose as transportation has come to an end.
I realize that I risk sounding like something with green blood and pointy ears, but math will always win. Yes, in a game, everything has to be balanced - at least, ideally. Something can not be balanced if something is better than another thing at a lower cost, less effort, and more freedom. Balance is not present when an old thing is useless - the fact that it's neat that it is there is meaningless.
For example, how many people use pigs, legitimately, as their primary form of travel?
Minecarts are now pigs.
Ahem, You have been assemelated. That is all,
But seriously games are for entertainment. LOGIC would dictate that if minecarts entertain you more you should use them. Which is why not everything in a game has to be balanced.
For instance, It would be more efficient for me to do one thing in minecraft. But since a game is for entertainment I MAY do another because it entertains me more. Logic is good. Logic can be everything. Math is good but it isn't everything. (Despite how some "robots "tend to say its the language of the universe) It fails at the human element and a certain degree of logic and common freaking sense. Perfect optimization is good for technology but not for entertainment and is an attitude that should NEVER be supported by ANYONE.
Playing games to be 100% optimal and not actually have fun (AKA Entertainment) IS an OCD mental problem. That would be to play minecraft by building a dirt hut and nothing else. Because how is this "pretty" efficient right?
The Point Of Life Is To Enjoy It And Thus Be Happy. Happiness=Fun=Entertainment which is why hard-cold math rightfully gets left out in the cold when it comes to playing video games.
I disagree that horses makes minecarts obsolete. Horses minecarts, boats, enderpearls and waling/sprinting are all options you CAN chose if you want, and you chose them "weighting" their pros and cons. Minecarts is the most resource consuming transport and boats for example only work on water (of course Captain obvious) so you might have to make canals or build an EATS system (or tunnels for the minecrarts).
Those are just examples for some cons i consider for transport systems, of course there are pros, like in the minecart you can jump on it press a button and go to have some coffee wile you make your 5 min travel. About boats, even if its not the most confortable way to trave i feel some simpathy and i like to move around in canals and rivers or just the ocean.and its quite cheap to make a boat... I dont know, in some cases horses can be a pain or good, its a matter of balance the pros an cons and see whats the best transport to use in that specific case, for example for a 5 minute travel i wont use a horse or a boat (unless its an EATS system and i dont have to do anything), i would use a minecart.
I dont know you guys, but I was derping around with the snapshot 13w17a flying using cheats on, searching every Plains biome and I didnt find any single horse around, and i searched for a looooong time. then you see all this yt videos where they find them so easy and act like ooohh look guys! look what i found! YEAH! RiiighTttTT! SOooo FAAAAKEEE REacctiooooNNNN!!!!
You know, I would never take a Transport to its Practical usage, It's only for fun too me, Had I wanted to arrive at a Destination I'd walk there myself,
I'm going to fall on my own sword here, perhaps Mojang did think this through more than I first though . It seems as though horses will now use the old dungeon saddle! (which I hoped would happen)
By now forcing the player to progress up the ground transport tiers of 'walking - minecarts - horses' (by making horses hard to obtain as a mount), new players will still build minecarts tracks before being able to (most of the time) get themselves a little horsie friend. With a minecart track already in place they will be more likely yo try and see it to completion, thus making mine-carts un-obsolete.
Horses now seem like a nice reward for spending the amount of time needed to now make use of them in survival
and with that, this topic will probably die of very quickly... shame, I had oh so much fun. with you all..
I'm glad people are starting to see sense where horses are concerned; as they are intended to be end-game they do not have to impact on your game at all. For players who have a primary survival world, they encourage the adventure/exploration aspects of Minecraft that have clearly been something of a priority since beta 1.8.
Minecarts got a whole new use in 1.5, and have become a very good way of moving around items (though not over huge distances), so there's no need to feel like they've been cast aside as they're more useful now than ever.
Pig riding was always more of a novelty, and if you think Horses have made your Minecraft world seem too small, try playing with Large Biomes, as the terrain feels better spread out (to me anyway).
By now forcing the player to progress up the ground transport tiers of 'walking - minecarts - horses' (by making horses hard to obtain as a mount), new players will still build minecarts tracks before being able to (most of the time) get themselves a little horsie friend. With a minecart track already in place they will be more likely yo try and see it to completion, thus making mine-carts un-obsolete.
Horses now seem like a nice reward for spending the amount of time needed to now make use of them in survival
It would probably be more efficient to spend the time you would have spent mining Iron and Gold on a hunt for horses, provided the track is long enough. I don't build short rail tracks often, so rails are rarely a mid-game transportation system for me.
But yes, you summed up Mojang's balancing logic for this case. It's a shame they didn't make the beacon more powerful, for how much more late-game that item is. ..
Minecart rails never were the fastest transportation anyway. Get enough iron and set up a horizontal minecart "elevator" or a piston pusher for the quickest endgame transportation.
Excuse me kind sir, but that's stupid. I bought a game called Minecraft. It is updated regularly by it's creators. I get the updates and keep playing. I couldn't care less about what do the mods have or don't have, neither what do other games have or don't have, as long as the game I paid for and is suposed to be good on itself, is actually good on itself.
I for one love the idea of horses, and putting armor (is it called 'bard' in english too?) on them, and hitting things riding my horse. That's all I need to know. What's this 'balance' you talk about? Balance between what? Pigs? i'm surprised to read that there's was real people using pigs for transportation. It never was anything more than "hey bro, look how I ride a pig in this game" for me, and that they will still be.
If you don't like horses, it's simple as not updating the game, or killing them all (there aren't that many to begin with), or ignoring them, or just using a mod that deletes them. I'm sure there will be some soon to catter with you all horse-haters. I swear I don't understand why are many of you so angry about the horses thing, unless it turns out that 50% of the population of minecraft couldn't care less about the construction and exploration theme and they're actually looking for a pvp game. Flashing news: Minecraft wasn't created primarly around that later idea.
Horses actually encourage the survival 'roaming' style of life, and let you ride the world and explore explore explore, for people who don't want to build all day long.
Now if you excuse me, I have some horses to ride throught a gd forest. Oh, it's so fast and shinny!
This.
I suppose i'm a weirdo though. I never run mod-heavy and, while i loved the horses when i tried the Mo' Creatures mod, the scorpions scared the bejeezus out of me! Give me my optifine and Twilight Forest? I'm golden.
Honestly, though, i look forward to the horses since it will mean being able to explore, carry/gather items/supplies, and wander about until i find somewhere i want to build a home. Kind of like being a pioneer. At least, that's what i thought of when i read horses were to be added.
Haters will hate until they find something else to belly ache about. *shrugs* Reading threads like this make me shake my head because it seems there will always be people who forget they have a choice and are not required to make use of this new-fangled tech (horses).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
~My problem is a simple one: I'm severely allergic to stupid.~
At first I thought I'd use horses for free leather and stop killing cows, but since they're so rare and drop no meat, that's not happening. Huh. Maybe I'll get used to them.. Nay.
Here you're comparing two different things.... The minecart rail stations and stuff will not be obsolete because of the automation, also nobody has to give you coords or explain how to get there, you just hop in the cart, and you can go to take a in the mean time, the horses I think of them personally as a way of transportation but to explore since you can go faster (I don't like the idea of going through the nether when going from my 1st base to the 2nd one) or just to brag in my server that I'm the only one who has found a horse yet.
And for the pig/horse balance thing, that doesn't make any sense, the pigs (at least to me) were always just to derp around or pig jousting (which is the most amazing game I've ever played on vanilla minecraft)
I like to add the following, this discussion is pointless discussion , if you are not on creative Mode, in survival you have a really hard time finding Horses at all as they are VERY RAR!
To be honest, I hope they stay really rare. I think I'm more excited about hunting one down than with actually owning it.
As everybody is well aware, Horses have been included in the 13w16a snapshot, and to be honest, I was rather excited and promptly went to go and test it out (it did not disappoint, and their inclusion defiantly has some very exciting potential) You say you like it, however the entirety of your post says otherwise.
After the initial hype began to die down I suddenly became enlightened to many consequences associated with this addition... "Enlightened", interesting word choice.
Sadly the addition of horses and donkeys makes nearly every other means of transport obsolete (boats excepted)... I beg to differ! I will explain alongside your reasoning.
Why spend countless hours building a massive mine-cart track/ station, when you can simply ride a horse to the desired destination... Why spend countless hours finding a horse, when simply you can build a small railway with comman resorces to your desired location, and it be a permanent solution that never has to be managed after the initial build?
Why bother with "mine-carts with chests" when you have a 'pack-mule' that can not only transport your items, but also you across the land in lightning time (even into cave systems, tested and tried)...? Why bother with "pack mules" when you have "chest carts" that not only transpot your items, but does so without the player having to do anything?
Personally, I always found pig riding to be this amazing compromise between us getting 'mounts' and 'not really giving us mounts'. It let you travel vast distances quickly without the loss of hunger from sprinting, whilst also providing a fun an unique means a land transportation. On the flip side, with an awkward control means (that often didn't work) pigs enlightened the fact that players needed to work hard to achieve luxury transport. Pigs represented the fact that mine-craft was not going to conform to the typical game conventions (such as mounts). Loved pigs, still use them. Minecraft has never been, and will never be, just a "typical game". It is too unique to be classified as one. And pigs, luxury transportation? Even if you worked hard, never would pigs be luxury. Pigs were never meant to be a replacement for walking, the were simply there for fun and for those who could invest the time to make effective use of them. Horses however do replace walking... OBJECTION! Proof: You cannot go into small spaces, you would have to mine out EVERYTHING in your way.
Fighting is a bit awkward, and a slain horse is hard to replace. Doing any actions under/low to you cannot be done as easily. (Replacing flooring and getting that tree stump are just two examples.
...It really does saddens me to think pigs (and all they stood for) are now nothing... *sigh* Another list to be made. The pig is a symbol of Minecraft. Pig can be ridden. They produce bacon. Pigs are awesome.
The ethos of the game has begun its downward spiral... for a game about mining, crafting and building... there sure isn't a lot of it... OH NO! HORSES! THE ICONS OF THE GAME (mining, crafting, exploring, etc, etc) ARE NOW RUINED BECAUSE WE HAVE A SOMEWHAT BALANCED WAY OF FAST TRANSPORTATION! THE GAME IS COMPLETELY RUINED! THERE IS NOTHING LEFT OF MINECRAFT, ALL OTHER FEATURES HAVE PRACTICABLY BEEN REMOVED!!!!!
You may have different opinions about this (and you are most entitled to them), fair enough... For certain I don't want to see horses remove Yes, I do have a different opinion. I for one, like it and think it is balanced, while you hate it and think it ruins the whole entire game even though it would be an optional, and rare, feature for players in more advanced worlds.
...but the game-obsoleting integration... Whelp, there you have it. Horses have been added, the game is now obsolete. Minecraft is ruined. Now playing Minecraft is just like staring at a freshly painted wall waiting for it to dry. Its ruined, obsolete. Horses have been added, game ruined. Everyone should now delete Minecraft and block the Minecraft site. *dons a fireproof suit to protect from the flames* Firesuit doesn't protect you from logic, son.
It is not that you do not like horses that irks me, its your logic and horses make any other type of transportation obsolete and ruins the game.
Hold the phone, I gotta look this over. *holds phone for Pxex*
<INSERT THE SLIGHTLY MAGICAL POST BY DAS>
It is not that you do not like horses that irks me, its your logic and horses make any other type of transportation obsolete and ruins the game.
Let me rephrase that... I always did and still want horses.... at the time of writing the post I felt that they were far to overpowered (faster than mine-carts, able to navigate terrain without having to even jump... I just wanted to point out to the community that horses were somewhat broken at the time...
I'm my mind (and evidently not yours ) being better than minecarts for 'travel' (note that doesn't include automation and item transportation) and being better than walking (its actually easier to ride a horse up sheer mountain side than it is to walk/ pillar) seems grounds to denote an obsoletion of the other transport means. Evidently the community has 'brought to light' (seeing as though you seemed to like phrases about light) that they will continue to use minecarts and the like for all kinds of things, which is pretty awesome!
Thanks for taking the time to actually write comments about every one of my paragraphs... it must have taken a while to think of a way to phrase angry comments about them all. Like I've said in a number of comments now, I now feel with some minor tweaks by the Mojang team that Horses are now balanced...
Quote from DaS »
I'm going to fall on my own sword here, perhaps Mojang did think this through more than I first though . It seems as though horses will now use the old dungeon saddle! (which I hoped would happen)
But yeah... whatever floats your bacon? (one has to wonder what would cause bacon to float if at all?)
Fat. If there's enough then the bacon should be able to float on water.
I suppose I've got to post something on topic now.
I think horses might need to be a bit slower for balance. Most horses are faster than minecarts and they don't have any sort of move cost (such as powered rails or carrot on a stick.) Yes, they're rare, but once they've been found and bred that's kind of a non-issue (especially on SMP where someone can do that for you.)
Why spend countless hours building a massive mine-cart track/ station, when you can simply ride a horse to the desired destination...?
Why bother with "mine-carts with chests" when you have a 'pack-mule' that can not only transport your items, but also you across the land in lightning time (even into cave systems, tested and tried)...?
Personally, I always found pig riding to be this amazing compromise between us getting 'mounts' and 'not really giving us mounts'. It let you travel vast distances quickly without the loss of hunger from sprinting, whilst also providing a fun an unique means a land transportation. On the flip side, with an awkward control means (that often didn't work) pigs enlightened the fact that players needed to work hard to achieve luxury transport. Pigs represented the fact that mine-craft was not going to conform to the typical game conventions (such as mounts).
Pigs were never meant to be a replacement for walking, the were simply there for fun and for those who could invest the time to make effective use of them. Horses however do replace walking...
You are only looking at the situation as the way you'll play the game, mate.
Minecart stations will always be faster, especially if they are in the nether. They are just the best ways to get from one place to another, unless you are going off on an adventure.
Again, minecarts with chests will still be useful because lots of people (smart, non-lazy ones) will still be using minecart tracks.
I never used pigs anyways as they were slow and quite useless. Fun sometimes, but really just useless.
I hardly walk places in game anyways. I've got an enderman farm set up in my single player world and on my SMP server. Once you have one of those, ender pearls become more abundant than cobblestone. Ender pearling everywhere can become quite the habit.
I doubt I can see myself using horses ALL the time. I will probably use them sometimes (pack mules) but an ender chest + plenty of ender pearls is good enough fast transport/portable storage for me.
Let me rephrase that... I always did and still want horses.... at the time of writing the post I felt that they were far to overpowered (faster than mine-carts, able to navigate terrain without having to even jump... I just wanted to point out to the community that horses were somewhat broken at the time...
I'm my mind (and evidently not yours ) being better than minecarts for 'travel' (note that doesn't include automation and item transportation) and being better than walking (its actually easier to ride a horse up sheer mountain side than it is to walk/ pillar) seems grounds to denote an obsoletion of the other transport means. Evidently the community has 'brought to light' (seeing as though you seemed to like phrases about light) that they will continue to use minecarts and the like for all kinds of things, which is pretty awesome!
Thanks for taking the time to actually write comments about every one of my paragraphs... it must have taken a while to think of a way to phrase angry comments about them all. Like I've said in a number of comments now, I now feel with some minor tweaks by the Mojang team that Horses are now balanced...
But yeah... whatever floats your bacon? (one has to wonder what would cause bacon to float if at all?)
Also FLAME SUITS DO PROTECT ME!*jumps into only slightly burns to death?* logic is for gnomes anyway...
Great to come to an understanding. However, you probably should edit your first post as for anyone coming to this thread would think you still think that horses completely ruin the game.
Ahem, You have been assemelated. That is all,
But seriously games are for entertainment. LOGIC would dictate that if minecarts entertain you more you should use them. Which is why not everything in a game has to be balanced.
For instance, It would be more efficient for me to do one thing in minecraft. But since a game is for entertainment I MAY do another because it entertains me more. Logic is good. Logic can be everything. Math is good but it isn't everything. (Despite how some "robots "tend to say its the language of the universe) It fails at the human element and a certain degree of logic and common freaking sense. Perfect optimization is good for technology but not for entertainment and is an attitude that should NEVER be supported by ANYONE.
Playing games to be 100% optimal and not actually have fun (AKA Entertainment) IS an OCD mental problem. That would be to play minecraft by building a dirt hut and nothing else. Because how is this "pretty" efficient right?
The Point Of Life Is To Enjoy It And Thus Be Happy. Happiness=Fun=Entertainment which is why hard-cold math rightfully gets left out in the cold when it comes to playing video games.
Those are just examples for some cons i consider for transport systems, of course there are pros, like in the minecart you can jump on it press a button and go to have some coffee wile you make your 5 min travel. About boats, even if its not the most confortable way to trave i feel some simpathy and i like to move around in canals and rivers or just the ocean.and its quite cheap to make a boat... I dont know, in some cases horses can be a pain or good, its a matter of balance the pros an cons and see whats the best transport to use in that specific case, for example for a 5 minute travel i wont use a horse or a boat (unless its an EATS system and i dont have to do anything), i would use a minecart.
Hey everyone, I'm back!
Good Ol' Legs and Map.
Rare dungeon item + Rare mob = balanced, late-game transport! Perfect!
By now forcing the player to progress up the ground transport tiers of 'walking - minecarts - horses' (by making horses hard to obtain as a mount), new players will still build minecarts tracks before being able to (most of the time) get themselves a little horsie friend. With a minecart track already in place they will be more likely yo try and see it to completion, thus making mine-carts un-obsolete.
Horses now seem like a nice reward for spending the amount of time needed to now make use of them in survival
and with that, this topic will probably die of very quickly... shame, I had oh so much fun. with you all..
:-( ):
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Minecarts got a whole new use in 1.5, and have become a very good way of moving around items (though not over huge distances), so there's no need to feel like they've been cast aside as they're more useful now than ever.
Pig riding was always more of a novelty, and if you think Horses have made your Minecraft world seem too small, try playing with Large Biomes, as the terrain feels better spread out (to me anyway).
It would probably be more efficient to spend the time you would have spent mining Iron and Gold on a hunt for horses, provided the track is long enough. I don't build short rail tracks often, so rails are rarely a mid-game transportation system for me.
But yes, you summed up Mojang's balancing logic for this case. It's a shame they didn't make the beacon more powerful, for how much more late-game that item is. ..
So yeah, horses are fine.
I suppose i'm a weirdo though. I never run mod-heavy and, while i loved the horses when i tried the Mo' Creatures mod, the scorpions scared the bejeezus out of me! Give me my optifine and Twilight Forest? I'm golden.
Honestly, though, i look forward to the horses since it will mean being able to explore, carry/gather items/supplies, and wander about until i find somewhere i want to build a home. Kind of like being a pioneer. At least, that's what i thought of when i read horses were to be added.
Haters will hate until they find something else to belly ache about. *shrugs* Reading threads like this make me shake my head because it seems there will always be people who forget they have a choice and are not required to make use of this new-fangled tech (horses).
And for the pig/horse balance thing, that doesn't make any sense, the pigs (at least to me) were always just to derp around or pig jousting (which is the most amazing game I've ever played on vanilla minecraft)
But then again, watching you all still continue to argue is pretty fun too ^o^
(I'm actually really surprised that this topic hasn't fallen into the depths of page 2 on-wards yet?)
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To be honest, I hope they stay really rare. I think I'm more excited about hunting one down than with actually owning it.
It is not that you do not like horses that irks me, its your logic and horses make any other type of transportation obsolete and ruins the game.
Let me rephrase that... I always did and still want horses.... at the time of writing the post I felt that they were far to overpowered (faster than mine-carts, able to navigate terrain without having to even jump... I just wanted to point out to the community that horses were somewhat broken at the time...
I'm my mind (and evidently not yours ) being better than minecarts for 'travel' (note that doesn't include automation and item transportation) and being better than walking (its actually easier to ride a horse up sheer mountain side than it is to walk/ pillar) seems grounds to denote an obsoletion of the other transport means. Evidently the community has 'brought to light' (seeing as though you seemed to like phrases about light) that they will continue to use minecarts and the like for all kinds of things, which is pretty awesome!
Thanks for taking the time to actually write comments about every one of my paragraphs... it must have taken a while to think of a way to phrase angry comments about them all. Like I've said in a number of comments now, I now feel with some minor tweaks by the Mojang team that Horses are now balanced...
But yeah... whatever floats your bacon? (one has to wonder what would cause bacon to float if at all?)
Also
FLAME SUITS DO PROTECT ME! *jumps into only slightly burns to death?*
logic is for gnomes anyway...
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I suppose I've got to post something on topic now.
I think horses might need to be a bit slower for balance. Most horses are faster than minecarts and they don't have any sort of move cost (such as powered rails or carrot on a stick.) Yes, they're rare, but once they've been found and bred that's kind of a non-issue (especially on SMP where someone can do that for you.)
Mostly moved on. May check back a few times a year.
You are only looking at the situation as the way you'll play the game, mate.
Minecart stations will always be faster, especially if they are in the nether. They are just the best ways to get from one place to another, unless you are going off on an adventure.
Again, minecarts with chests will still be useful because lots of people (smart, non-lazy ones) will still be using minecart tracks.
I never used pigs anyways as they were slow and quite useless. Fun sometimes, but really just useless.
I hardly walk places in game anyways. I've got an enderman farm set up in my single player world and on my SMP server. Once you have one of those, ender pearls become more abundant than cobblestone. Ender pearling everywhere can become quite the habit.
I doubt I can see myself using horses ALL the time. I will probably use them sometimes (pack mules) but an ender chest + plenty of ender pearls is good enough fast transport/portable storage for me.
Great to come to an understanding. However, you probably should edit your first post as for anyone coming to this thread would think you still think that horses completely ruin the game.