So you said that the problem was dispensers, yet you say a post that DIRECTLY addresses this is worse?
Also, please tell me how having a food production rate much higher than you consumption rate presents any tangible advantage.
As for my grievance, it makes me need to invest FAR more time into food gathering in the start of the world, which I DO NOT find enjoyable. I find it tedious and repetitive, and would much prefer to get on to mining and exploring. Also, currently you guys have the OPTION to ignore bone meal. If this is put in, I CANNOT ignore this. I find this pretty unfair, as many of you already do not use it, and a tweak that me and others very much dislike if implemented would FORCE us to change, because you guys don't enjoy something aesthetic (At least I think that is why. Instant wheat growth right?)
As for saying I could of started 20 farms in this time, this has absolutely no bearing on the subject : Future time will be going down the drain for every new world / server I enter where I need to do the slower method to finding food. 10 minutes more each?...That adds up. Its a waste of time.
So you said that the problem was dispensers, yet you say a post that DIRECTLY addresses this is worse?
I said that the change to dispensers is the CATALYST for CONSIDERING a change in the first place. I never said that the "problem" was dispensers.
Quit acting like I'm your internet arch rival and that you must for some reason only reply to the parts of my post that you feel you have a rebuttal for. I am not trying to destroy your argument, only to understand it. Now stop being combative and COOPERATE WITH ME IF YOU WANT PEOPLE OF THE OPPOSING FACTION TO UNDERSTAND SO THIS STUPID ARGUMENT CAN END.
That suggestion is worse than the current bonemeal mechanics *IN MY OPINION* because it means bonemeal does not have consistent power through different application methods. It would be stupid for anyone to use bonemeal's new dispenser functionality if it meant it took seven time as much bonemeal or even twice as much bonemeal. It would be a foolish misbalancing of game mechanics.
Doesn't matter, but I don't "support" it. The fact is that it is there in this snapshot. It is on your shoulders to provide an argument for why the old system is better gameplay than the new system. I can't come up with a single reason, so my position is "I don't give a crap". That's why I didn't join this topic until the tenth page. As far as I care, Mojang can make bonemeal only work on the moon.
It seems like there are just two camps here who refuse to let bygones be bygones. One camp is opposed to anything that may mildly inconvenience their style of gameplay and refuse to even consider the reasons behind this tentative change. The other camp is the group that is so affectionately called "fanboys", though that's really not the case.
Now READ VERY CAREFULLY.
My question is NOT "Why do you think this change is unnecessary?"
My question is NOT "Do you think it's a waste of development time?"
My question is NOT "What is your rebuttal against supporters of this change?"
My question is:
"How does this affect you, in which parts of your gameplay, and why are you against it?"
You keep saying how insignificant bonemeal is. So why does it matter to you?
I was so glad when you stopped ignoring my posts.
I thought I could get answers.
Instead you pick out insignificant parts of my post that are not meant to be argument against you. You are boxing shadows.
And sir? YOU are the pigeon.
My question is NOT "Why do you think this change is unnecessary?"
My question is NOT "Do you think it's a waste of development time?"
My question is NOT "What is your rebuttal against supporters of this change?"
My question is:
"How does this affect you, in which parts of your gameplay, and why are you against it?"
You keep saying how insignificant bonemeal is. So why does it matter to you?
I was so glad when you stopped ignoring my posts.
I thought I could get answers.
Instead you pick out insignificant parts of my post that are not meant to be argument against you. You are boxing shadows.
And sir? YOU are the pigeon.
Wouldn't the reason I am against it* technically fall into the category of a rebuttal against those who support it?
And I don't really remember replying to any of your posts before this but I'll take your word for that as it is possible that at some point I replied to one of your posts or something >.>
I also thought I covered quite elequently my stance one bonemeal in that it matters to other people.
but I guess I'll directly adress your question point by point because pigeon boxing?
"How does this affect you?"
Not much as I do not regularly use bonemeal it does represent a minor inconvinience at worst.
"In which parts of your gameplay"
I guess occasionally running out of wood and not wanting to walk several hunded blocks to clearcut a rainforest because I got lazy and forgot to plant some trees near me when I started my project. Usually followed up by remembering to plant some sapplings so I don't have to repeate the aformentioned.
"Why are you against it?"
Because I respect that others have the right to play the game how they feel like playing the game and if someone wants to build a wheat factory I'm not going to be some selfish jerk about it. I'm going to let them build their wheat factory, have their fun and it isn't going to detract from my (non wheat factory) enjoyment of the game one bit.
If I was going to go totally postal over anything it would be snow golems ..... I think they are the most repugnant thing in minecraft and should be smote from the code base with great vengence.... but other poeple like them (starting to see a patern?) so I'm perfectly fine not using snow golems. Since other people enjoying them in their games has NO effect on me enjoying my (most certainly snow golem free) game... repeate ad nauseum.
*in its current form, as it does nothing for ballance and simply breaks all the things.
My question is:
"How does this affect you, in which parts of your gameplay, and why are you against it?"
You keep saying how insignificant bonemeal is. So why does it matter to you?
I'll tell you my side.
It doesn't affect my gameplay. I never relied upon it and It was never OP for me because I always survived well enough without it. Plus, the use on crops gives you some food. Big whoop, as I can go over a hill, find an animal, and kill it for better food. The few times I do use it for crops are now going to require seven times the input for something that used to require one use, making it more annoying to use, and discouraging me from using it in the first place. For me, the use of Bonemeal will go from "on occasion" to "rarely if ever", and I feel that Bonemeal, as it was, needed more uses, not reduced capabilities for its lackluster uses.
However, though I am not them, the nerf will leave a very negative impact on the people who do use it, forcing them to switch to more conventional farming. I do not support forcing everyone to play the same way, so, even though I do not use it, I will defend those who do use it because alternative playstyles should be encouraged in a sandbox, not eliminated due to half-assed attempts to make the game "harder" for people with thousands of Bones.
In addition, the few times where I do use Bonemeal for anything will be negatively affected by this nerf. Convenience is ruined early game, PvP servers now are twenty times less fun because I'm rooted to the spot, waiting for Wheat to grow, and Custom maps with intentionally limited resources are now more tedious and less fun to play because I have to risk my life to get the seeds, to get the Bones, and I'm not rewarded with enough food to sustain myself, after all of that risk.
Overall, I hate the change, and hope that Dinnerbone does not listen to these hardcore survival junkies that claim Bonemeal was OP, and makes it useful again.
I doubt that was even the reason he nerfed it. It is significantly more likely that he only nerfed it to make sure that Dispensers filled with Bonemeal wouldn't be broken. Not that I can understand why he even allowed Dispensers to use Bonemeal in the first place...
Completely disregarded an answer to your question, assuming because you didn't like it. (The question about what my grievance was)
Dispensers WOULD actually make sense if you think of it this way : By hand you work it into the soil, for more effect. A dispenser would shoot it onto the surface, meaning while having a mild effect, it would be less useful than working it in by hand.
Also a reason for supporting something SHOULD matter. As it shows if there's a good reason / need for it. Otherwise its just another suggestion.
As for the bit on the 2 sides...
Supporters reasoning has been as followed (from what I've seen so far)
*Unrealistic
*Starting off players should be forced to work harder to earn the right to not starve to death
*It makes farming unrewarding (Although I say this is debatable at best)
*Dispensers would make mass / giant production of food too easy (Again, debatable, since having a massive storage of food provides an advantage only in the MASSIVELY long term)
Opposition reasoning has been as followed
*Changes a life saving convenience to an item at 1/7th the current worth (The 1.4.7 worth is insanely low, mind you)
*Makes life harder for new spawns, be it in new worlds, servers (Which often times do NOT have animals around due to mass slaughtering) or anything else. Only delays the "real" adventure by dragging out the start by another day or so, in an annoying fashion.
*Although we can understand the bits of aesthetics, or wanting more challenge, this can currently be achieved by the OPTION of ignoring bone meal. Where as if this IS implemented, everyone who does not enjoy the change will be forced to "deal with it", with no option.
*Dispensers could be balanced here: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1666081-the-bonemeal-solution/
*This decreases the possible places to survive, since bone meal has often been the thing to allow those to get their first food in harsh areas.
IF EITHER PARTY WANTS TO ADD A REASON, LET ME KNOW.
I'm not going to enter into a philosophical debate about what constitutes difficulty. Any reasonable person would agree that nerfing bonemeal increases the time it takes you to gather food which is necessary for survival. As a result you are forced to build and maintain an actual farm.
If none of you can admit that food is necessary for survival and that the bonemeal nerf forces you to construct a better farm, which takes time and effort, then we are clearly not going to get anywhere because you are unwilling to face reality.
We are constructing farms ALREADY, and have been doing long before this bonemeal change came about, so you're spouting nonsense there.
We construct farms because it is the best way to grow food and so fend off hunger (and of course to enjoy the task of farm design and construction in its own right - this is the sort of stuff the game is about).
It is only the likes of you and Cecil who believe that bonemeal is the way to grow things and think that now bonemeal is buggered we will be presented with a new challenge. You couldn't be more wrong.
There is no difficulty increase because of this change, just a degraded game element which will now become annoying to use for absolutely no currently apparent reason.
Solution to needing food:
Sleep in a bed where your house is. (which sets your spawn point)
put all your items in a chest at your house
Kill yourself.
Respawn
you'll never need food again.
Although this is "obviously" sarcasm =P I can't help but chuckle, as this kind of answer isn't surprising at this point.
Though it wouldn't work in hardcore. Still, 1+ for the smile, this thread needed it.
I think you are missing his point as much as he is missing yours. If lacking a farm makes you struggle and with a farm you have no issue, why not... have a farm?
I am not missing his point, I get what he is saying. He says bonemeal was a waste to begin with, why change it. I get it. But he communicates it poorly, and I want him to realize that a reason as vapid as that is not good enough, and really makes no sense.
It is only the likes of you and Cecil who believe that bonemeal is the way to grow things and think that now bonemeal is buggered we will be presented with a new challenge. You couldn't be more wrong.
You're trivializing our stance. And if we're wrong, how are we wrong? If bonemeal is now not as potent as before, how are we wrong that the challenge has increased? Now you can make badass automatic farms, but you still have to work hard to build the machinery and you need more bonemeal than before. Now the breeding process has been slowed down, you can't get books as fast without leather.
How, pray tell, has the challenge not increased? And why is the challenge increase not good?
I am not missing his point, I get what he is saying. He says bonemeal was a waste to begin with, why change it. I get it. But he communicates it poorly, and I want him to realize that a reason as vapid as that is not good enough, and really makes no sense.
Good luck arguing with him though.
You're trivializing our stance. And if we're wrong, how are we wrong? If bonemeal is now not as potent as before, how are we wrong that the challenge has increased? Now you can make badass automatic farms, but you still have to work hard to build the machinery and you need more bonemeal than before. Now the breeding process has been slowed down, you can't get books as fast without leather.
How, pray tell, has the challenge not increased? And why is the challenge increase not good?
This does not change breeding / enchantments. This is IMPLYING we absolutely rely on bone meal for feeding cows. Most of us use bone meal for getting started, nothing more. If I'm using wheat on cows, I make damn sure my wheat farm is big enough to feed me as well, which means WITHOUT using bone meal.
So getting leather is only harder IF you do not find STARTER food promptly. If you stumble upon a village farm, get enough pigs at spawn, or anything like this, it does NOTHING to change the difficulty. It is an annoyance.
Because passively growing crops was even easier than Bonemeal, so the challenge has practically decreased.
Cheers for that. Saved me the effort. A very concise and accurate riposte.
And cecil, if you want to know why I think you're wrong, read my posts.
They'll explain to you in detail why I think you're a little misguided in how you have interpreted the bonemeal change.
The point is, it was never about how easy or not bonemeal was as a way to get food. Very few of us use bonemeal for that in the long term. But now on the rare occasions we do use bonemeal for our convenience, it will be a needlessly annoying chore.
Do you see? This is not about the events in your or my little Minecraft world. This is about ergonomics. The very core of what makes a good user interface.
If bonemeal is now not as potent as before, how are we wrong that the challenge has increased? Now you can make badass automatic farms, but you still have to work hard to build the machinery and you need more bonemeal than before. Now the breeding process has been slowed down, you can't get books as fast without leather.
How, pray tell, has the challenge not increased? And why is the challenge increase not good?
You are correct in the technical aspect that bonemeal isn't as potent as it was before. However that hasn't added any level of difficulty. Food is as easy as it ever was to acquire, the only thing that has really changed is that automated wheat farms are practically impractical now. Which really has little to no effect on anything other than automated wheat farms, short of essentially punishing people who use them.... and really who cares if someone builds one if it doesn't effect your game what so ever?
I guess that depending on the size of your (normal) farm breeding might be slightly impeded, however all that does is add tedium to making books. Tedium is not challenging it is tedious. In the end all the change as it stands really does is punish people who play the game differently for the high crime of playing the game differently.
I'd be all behind a change to bonemeal if it actually added something to the game be it depth or challenge, tho I do really like the sparkles
I am not even sure what you're arguing anymore. Are you saying that bonemeal makes the first few days easier, because it doesn't. Or are you saying that insta grow is important to building huge pixel art pokemon without starving? Because there is creative mode for that. Unless you want to play survival while you make the pixel art; then you should play by the rules and it should be difficult.
This argument is asinine. The properties of bonemeal both before and after the change to not have much effect on the game at all; you can thrive in one world for thousands of real life years and never have to use bonemeal once. Changing the amount of bonemeal needed simply makes bonemeal a little more difficult to use. This change is a nudge in the direction of a more rouge-like experience that Notch wanted to take the game in to begin with. And I refuse to get into a whole new argument about how Notch no longer developers for minecraft so my argument is invalidated.
I only get 4 to 5 hours a week to play minecraft lately; I recently picked up a second job, and my days are spent with my wife and my daughter. So I play an hour a so before I go to bed. This is how much bonemeal I have in my world:
That is 1,782 pieces of bonemeal, playing casually, and not using a skeleton spawner. Not including what bones I may have lying around unused. (most of those bones came from trying to get music discs. i have all but one!) Why not make an item so easily available worth less? It makes sense to me.
I am not trying to be a jerk, or say my opinion is better or even really argue at all. I think I just don't understand why making the game a smidge more challenging is bad.
Next time you're trying to make a point of how easy it is to kill skeletons and get bonemeal you may want to remove the Enchanted Diamond Sword and Enchanted Bow from your inventory.
Next time you're trying to make a point of how easy it is to kill skeletons and get bonemeal you may want to remove the Enchanted Diamond Sword and Enchanted Bow from your inventory.
If you read later on in the thread, I posted the picture again and said how I got that much. Hunting music discs with a Looting III sword.
option to get a lot of wheat for trading and breeding in a short amount of time has decreased dramatically.
Only for bone mealers (And who bone meals over and over for trade?) If you have a farm, this does nothing to increase or decrease breeding / trading. In-fact I already SAID this does nothing for breeding above, but you ignored it.
Once you have over the thresh-hold (more produced than consumed) Food isn't an issue, so it can start being used for trade. And the easiest way by FAR to get that much is with a farm. Also you realizing breeding is a slow process, right, what with baby animals needing to grow up? 200 wheat does not mean 100 instant grown up cows. It means 100 births, and growing periods. Which take time.
Also an inherent thing about bone meal : For huge quantities this is horribly inferior to farming. And since large quantities are needed for trading, and for keeping YOURSELF and animals fed, this balanced itself out. If I want a chest of 2000 wheat, I'm better off making a massive farm and harvesting each day then running around like a maniac on a hunt for skeletons. This is WITH OR WITHOUT the nerf.
Also by the time I have an enchanted diamond sword, starving will NEVER EVER happen.
Not to mention looting 3 sword speeds up getting that many bones, compared to stone swords, doncha think?... So maybe bragging you got that much that easy is, I don't know, more about the enchanted sword, than the bones?
Might I ask (since I've ignored this thread until now) what you advocate in regards to the bonemeal change?
Well it took me awhile to think of a solution. Bonemeal needs to be nerfed. Although I could live with the current changes, I never considered them optimal. I don't support "The Bonemeal Solution" because it is even more OP than original bonemeal.
Personally I would like to see a new recepie. I think 1 bone and 1 rotten flesh would be a fair recepie for 1 bonemeal. This would reduce the crafting recepie from a ratio of 3:1 to 1:1 and give rotten flesh a use that makes sense - fertilizer. Bonemeal could then keep its original effects and everyone is happy.
Well it took me awhile to think of a solution. Bonemeal needs to be nerfed. Although I could live with the current changes, I never considered them optimal. I don't support "The Bonemeal Solution" because it is even more OP than original bonemeal.
Personally I would like to see a new recepie. I think 1 bone and 1 rotten flesh would be a fair recepie for 1 bonemeal. This would reduce the crafting recepie from a ratio of 3:1 to 1:1 and give rotten flesh a use that makes sense - fertilizer. Bonemeal could then keep its original effects and everyone is happy.
Hmm It would give me something to do with zombie flesh other than throw it into lava "trash bins" and that would be a good thing!
My only issue and I will admit right off the bat that its a petty issue, I really do like the sparkles.
Possibly change things so bonemeal alone fertilizes an area and reduces the overall growth time by some % with sparkles
and fertilizer retains the potency of the original bonemeal but no sparkls
Well it took me awhile to think of a solution. Bonemeal needs to be nerfed. Although I could live with the current changes, I never considered them optimal. I don't support "The Bonemeal Solution" because it is even more OP than original bonemeal.
Personally I would like to see a new recepie. I think 1 bone and 1 rotten flesh would be a fair recepie for 1 bonemeal. This would reduce the crafting recepie from a ratio of 3:1 to 1:1 and give rotten flesh a use that makes sense - fertilizer. Bonemeal could then keep its original effects and everyone is happy.
I could TOTALLY get behind that. And it would be investing a bit of food in the process to get more.
Instant gratification over my dead body! It's not that I use bonemeal all the time it's just that when you need it then you need.... Okay I can't really explain but -snip-. Minecraft surely isn't for the impatient but things like this nerf can be fearful for what the future will hold. You say that blocks should take time to be placed but I call that fricken crazy. Minecraft is a sandbox game for crying out loud. There is survival but it shouldn't be really really hard( there is hardcore for that ). Maybe they should add extra time to everything! Add few more clicks here and make this and that take longer..... I mean seriously? Also crops on their own will grow fine and if YOU are on single player you WILL have lots of food more than YOU can eat. Just because bonemeal is nerfed doesn't mean you can't supply a surplus of food.
This nerf doesn't add difficulty that would make the game fun what so ever. The nerf was intended for what I believe was for dispencers. IF Mojang thought that old bonemealing was OP they should have changed that a long time ago. There are numerous compromises that have been posted on these forums. They come in four forms:
Either make crafting bonemeal more complicated or give less bonemeal from bones (1:1)
Only apply the nerf to dispersers and return the old bonemeal back to HAND placed bonemeal.
Reduce nerf to 2 cycles of bonemeal for wheat, carrots, potatoes and 3 cycles for melon/pumpkin stems and 2-4 cycles for trees and 1 for mushrooms.
And finally a new one for all you survival cray cray people. LEAVE the nerf to HARDCORE.
Also if I wanted instant gratification I wouldn't be playing near vanilla SMP and I also hate tekkit/FTB.
Where there is an issue with two sides there should be compromise or a solution.
The OP clearly shows the addiction to instant gratification that afflicts a growing number of people. It is so evident in the Minecraft. Faster mining. Faster pickaxes. Instant crops. Quicker furnaces. More storage. I think people should slow down and be patient. Crops take time to grow.
Heck, it should take time to place blocks!
Gee, excuse me for wanting more tiers of better equipment. Also, do you think this nerf or even this game really affects the "addiction to instant gratification that afflicts a growing number of people?" It doesn't. Time wasters like Minecraft should be interesting, if you don't want to do things the easiest, fastest, and best way possible in real life, that's your choice. Time to place blocks? Good luck building anything. Crops take time to grow, but don't you think this nerf is a little extreme? 7 for wheat, 2 for a giant jungle tree. Patience is great but it doesn't mean doing things slowly for no reason.
Also, please tell me how having a food production rate much higher than you consumption rate presents any tangible advantage.
As for my grievance, it makes me need to invest FAR more time into food gathering in the start of the world, which I DO NOT find enjoyable. I find it tedious and repetitive, and would much prefer to get on to mining and exploring. Also, currently you guys have the OPTION to ignore bone meal. If this is put in, I CANNOT ignore this. I find this pretty unfair, as many of you already do not use it, and a tweak that me and others very much dislike if implemented would FORCE us to change, because you guys don't enjoy something aesthetic (At least I think that is why. Instant wheat growth right?)
As for saying I could of started 20 farms in this time, this has absolutely no bearing on the subject : Future time will be going down the drain for every new world / server I enter where I need to do the slower method to finding food. 10 minutes more each?...That adds up. Its a waste of time.
I said that the change to dispensers is the CATALYST for CONSIDERING a change in the first place. I never said that the "problem" was dispensers.
Quit acting like I'm your internet arch rival and that you must for some reason only reply to the parts of my post that you feel you have a rebuttal for. I am not trying to destroy your argument, only to understand it. Now stop being combative and COOPERATE WITH ME IF YOU WANT PEOPLE OF THE OPPOSING FACTION TO UNDERSTAND SO THIS STUPID ARGUMENT CAN END.
That suggestion is worse than the current bonemeal mechanics *IN MY OPINION* because it means bonemeal does not have consistent power through different application methods. It would be stupid for anyone to use bonemeal's new dispenser functionality if it meant it took seven time as much bonemeal or even twice as much bonemeal. It would be a foolish misbalancing of game mechanics.
Doesn't matter, but I don't "support" it. The fact is that it is there in this snapshot. It is on your shoulders to provide an argument for why the old system is better gameplay than the new system. I can't come up with a single reason, so my position is "I don't give a crap". That's why I didn't join this topic until the tenth page. As far as I care, Mojang can make bonemeal only work on the moon.
It seems like there are just two camps here who refuse to let bygones be bygones. One camp is opposed to anything that may mildly inconvenience their style of gameplay and refuse to even consider the reasons behind this tentative change. The other camp is the group that is so affectionately called "fanboys", though that's really not the case.
Now READ VERY CAREFULLY.
My question is NOT "Why do you think this change is unnecessary?"
My question is NOT "Do you think it's a waste of development time?"
My question is NOT "What is your rebuttal against supporters of this change?"
My question is:
"How does this affect you, in which parts of your gameplay, and why are you against it?"
You keep saying how insignificant bonemeal is. So why does it matter to you?
I was so glad when you stopped ignoring my posts.
I thought I could get answers.
Instead you pick out insignificant parts of my post that are not meant to be argument against you.
You are boxing shadows.
And sir? YOU are the pigeon.
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Wouldn't the reason I am against it* technically fall into the category of a rebuttal against those who support it?
And I don't really remember replying to any of your posts before this but I'll take your word for that as it is possible that at some point I replied to one of your posts or something >.>
I also thought I covered quite elequently my stance one bonemeal in that it matters to other people.
but I guess I'll directly adress your question point by point because pigeon boxing?
"How does this affect you?"
Not much as I do not regularly use bonemeal it does represent a minor inconvinience at worst.
"In which parts of your gameplay"
I guess occasionally running out of wood and not wanting to walk several hunded blocks to clearcut a rainforest because I got lazy and forgot to plant some trees near me when I started my project. Usually followed up by remembering to plant some sapplings so I don't have to repeate the aformentioned.
"Why are you against it?"
Because I respect that others have the right to play the game how they feel like playing the game and if someone wants to build a wheat factory I'm not going to be some selfish jerk about it. I'm going to let them build their wheat factory, have their fun and it isn't going to detract from my (non wheat factory) enjoyment of the game one bit.
If I was going to go totally postal over anything it would be snow golems ..... I think they are the most repugnant thing in minecraft and should be smote from the code base with great vengence.... but other poeple like them (starting to see a patern?) so I'm perfectly fine not using snow golems. Since other people enjoying them in their games has NO effect on me enjoying my (most certainly snow golem free) game... repeate ad nauseum.
*in its current form, as it does nothing for ballance and simply breaks all the things.
It doesn't affect my gameplay. I never relied upon it and It was never OP for me because I always survived well enough without it. Plus, the use on crops gives you some food. Big whoop, as I can go over a hill, find an animal, and kill it for better food. The few times I do use it for crops are now going to require seven times the input for something that used to require one use, making it more annoying to use, and discouraging me from using it in the first place. For me, the use of Bonemeal will go from "on occasion" to "rarely if ever", and I feel that Bonemeal, as it was, needed more uses, not reduced capabilities for its lackluster uses.
However, though I am not them, the nerf will leave a very negative impact on the people who do use it, forcing them to switch to more conventional farming. I do not support forcing everyone to play the same way, so, even though I do not use it, I will defend those who do use it because alternative playstyles should be encouraged in a sandbox, not eliminated due to half-assed attempts to make the game "harder" for people with thousands of Bones.
In addition, the few times where I do use Bonemeal for anything will be negatively affected by this nerf. Convenience is ruined early game, PvP servers now are twenty times less fun because I'm rooted to the spot, waiting for Wheat to grow, and Custom maps with intentionally limited resources are now more tedious and less fun to play because I have to risk my life to get the seeds, to get the Bones, and I'm not rewarded with enough food to sustain myself, after all of that risk.
Overall, I hate the change, and hope that Dinnerbone does not listen to these hardcore survival junkies that claim Bonemeal was OP, and makes it useful again.
I doubt that was even the reason he nerfed it. It is significantly more likely that he only nerfed it to make sure that Dispensers filled with Bonemeal wouldn't be broken. Not that I can understand why he even allowed Dispensers to use Bonemeal in the first place...
Dispensers WOULD actually make sense if you think of it this way : By hand you work it into the soil, for more effect. A dispenser would shoot it onto the surface, meaning while having a mild effect, it would be less useful than working it in by hand.
Also a reason for supporting something SHOULD matter. As it shows if there's a good reason / need for it. Otherwise its just another suggestion.
As for the bit on the 2 sides...
Supporters reasoning has been as followed (from what I've seen so far)
*Unrealistic
*Starting off players should be forced to work harder to earn the right to not starve to death
*It makes farming unrewarding (Although I say this is debatable at best)
*Dispensers would make mass / giant production of food too easy (Again, debatable, since having a massive storage of food provides an advantage only in the MASSIVELY long term)
Opposition reasoning has been as followed
*Changes a life saving convenience to an item at 1/7th the current worth (The 1.4.7 worth is insanely low, mind you)
*Makes life harder for new spawns, be it in new worlds, servers (Which often times do NOT have animals around due to mass slaughtering) or anything else. Only delays the "real" adventure by dragging out the start by another day or so, in an annoying fashion.
*Although we can understand the bits of aesthetics, or wanting more challenge, this can currently be achieved by the OPTION of ignoring bone meal. Where as if this IS implemented, everyone who does not enjoy the change will be forced to "deal with it", with no option.
*Dispensers could be balanced here: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1666081-the-bonemeal-solution/
*This decreases the possible places to survive, since bone meal has often been the thing to allow those to get their first food in harsh areas.
IF EITHER PARTY WANTS TO ADD A REASON, LET ME KNOW.
We are constructing farms ALREADY, and have been doing long before this bonemeal change came about, so you're spouting nonsense there.
We construct farms because it is the best way to grow food and so fend off hunger (and of course to enjoy the task of farm design and construction in its own right - this is the sort of stuff the game is about).
It is only the likes of you and Cecil who believe that bonemeal is the way to grow things and think that now bonemeal is buggered we will be presented with a new challenge. You couldn't be more wrong.
There is no difficulty increase because of this change, just a degraded game element which will now become annoying to use for absolutely no currently apparent reason.
Although this is "obviously" sarcasm =P I can't help but chuckle, as this kind of answer isn't surprising at this point.
Though it wouldn't work in hardcore. Still, 1+ for the smile, this thread needed it.
I am not missing his point, I get what he is saying. He says bonemeal was a waste to begin with, why change it. I get it. But he communicates it poorly, and I want him to realize that a reason as vapid as that is not good enough, and really makes no sense.
Good luck arguing with him though.
You're trivializing our stance. And if we're wrong, how are we wrong? If bonemeal is now not as potent as before, how are we wrong that the challenge has increased? Now you can make badass automatic farms, but you still have to work hard to build the machinery and you need more bonemeal than before. Now the breeding process has been slowed down, you can't get books as fast without leather.
How, pray tell, has the challenge not increased? And why is the challenge increase not good?
This does not change breeding / enchantments. This is IMPLYING we absolutely rely on bone meal for feeding cows. Most of us use bone meal for getting started, nothing more. If I'm using wheat on cows, I make damn sure my wheat farm is big enough to feed me as well, which means WITHOUT using bone meal.
So getting leather is only harder IF you do not find STARTER food promptly. If you stumble upon a village farm, get enough pigs at spawn, or anything like this, it does NOTHING to change the difficulty. It is an annoyance.
Cheers for that. Saved me the effort. A very concise and accurate riposte.
And cecil, if you want to know why I think you're wrong, read my posts.
They'll explain to you in detail why I think you're a little misguided in how you have interpreted the bonemeal change.
The point is, it was never about how easy or not bonemeal was as a way to get food. Very few of us use bonemeal for that in the long term. But now on the rare occasions we do use bonemeal for our convenience, it will be a needlessly annoying chore.
Do you see? This is not about the events in your or my little Minecraft world. This is about ergonomics. The very core of what makes a good user interface.
You are correct in the technical aspect that bonemeal isn't as potent as it was before. However that hasn't added any level of difficulty. Food is as easy as it ever was to acquire, the only thing that has really changed is that automated wheat farms are practically impractical now. Which really has little to no effect on anything other than automated wheat farms, short of essentially punishing people who use them.... and really who cares if someone builds one if it doesn't effect your game what so ever?
I guess that depending on the size of your (normal) farm breeding might be slightly impeded, however all that does is add tedium to making books. Tedium is not challenging it is tedious. In the end all the change as it stands really does is punish people who play the game differently for the high crime of playing the game differently.
I'd be all behind a change to bonemeal if it actually added something to the game be it depth or challenge, tho I do really like the sparkles
Next time you're trying to make a point of how easy it is to kill skeletons and get bonemeal you may want to remove the Enchanted Diamond Sword and Enchanted Bow from your inventory.
If you read later on in the thread, I posted the picture again and said how I got that much. Hunting music discs with a Looting III sword.
But the option to get a lot of wheat for trading and breeding in a short amount of time has decreased dramatically.
Only for bone mealers (And who bone meals over and over for trade?) If you have a farm, this does nothing to increase or decrease breeding / trading. In-fact I already SAID this does nothing for breeding above, but you ignored it.
Once you have over the thresh-hold (more produced than consumed) Food isn't an issue, so it can start being used for trade. And the easiest way by FAR to get that much is with a farm. Also you realizing breeding is a slow process, right, what with baby animals needing to grow up? 200 wheat does not mean 100 instant grown up cows. It means 100 births, and growing periods. Which take time.
Also an inherent thing about bone meal : For huge quantities this is horribly inferior to farming. And since large quantities are needed for trading, and for keeping YOURSELF and animals fed, this balanced itself out. If I want a chest of 2000 wheat, I'm better off making a massive farm and harvesting each day then running around like a maniac on a hunt for skeletons. This is WITH OR WITHOUT the nerf.
Also by the time I have an enchanted diamond sword, starving will NEVER EVER happen.
Not to mention looting 3 sword speeds up getting that many bones, compared to stone swords, doncha think?... So maybe bragging you got that much that easy is, I don't know, more about the enchanted sword, than the bones?
Well it took me awhile to think of a solution. Bonemeal needs to be nerfed. Although I could live with the current changes, I never considered them optimal. I don't support "The Bonemeal Solution" because it is even more OP than original bonemeal.
Personally I would like to see a new recepie. I think 1 bone and 1 rotten flesh would be a fair recepie for 1 bonemeal. This would reduce the crafting recepie from a ratio of 3:1 to 1:1 and give rotten flesh a use that makes sense - fertilizer. Bonemeal could then keep its original effects and everyone is happy.
Hmm It would give me something to do with zombie flesh other than throw it into lava "trash bins" and that would be a good thing!
My only issue and I will admit right off the bat that its a petty issue, I really do like the sparkles.
Possibly change things so bonemeal alone fertilizes an area and reduces the overall growth time by some % with sparkles
and fertilizer retains the potency of the original bonemeal but no sparkls
???
I could TOTALLY get behind that. And it would be investing a bit of food in the process to get more.
+1
Someone please respond to that
Gee, excuse me for wanting more tiers of better equipment. Also, do you think this nerf or even this game really affects the "addiction to instant gratification that afflicts a growing number of people?" It doesn't. Time wasters like Minecraft should be interesting, if you don't want to do things the easiest, fastest, and best way possible in real life, that's your choice. Time to place blocks? Good luck building anything. Crops take time to grow, but don't you think this nerf is a little extreme? 7 for wheat, 2 for a giant jungle tree. Patience is great but it doesn't mean doing things slowly for no reason.