The real crime here is that Mojang choose to muck about with stuff like this, rather than fixing all the other half finished or bug ridden things in the game.
The real crime here is that Mojang choose to muck about with stuff like this, rather than fixing all the other half finished or bug ridden things in the game.
Get real. This change probably took like five minutes to code.
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If you think your opinion is superior, voice it here. http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1669186-compilation-of-bonemeal-solutions-the-poll/
Ordinarily I wouldn't promote a topic on another topic, but I believe I've found pretty much all of the sensible solutions posted on the forums for bonemeal (while it's being worked on anyway, you know). Some of the solutions are popular (including "Leave it alone from 1.4.7 to 1.5") and one of them I really like but hadn't gotten its own topic (Area-of-Effect bonemeal).
Might as well make it into a poll and see which one is most popular without having to read three ten+ page topics where people are just senselessly bickering.
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Get real. This change probably took like five minutes to code.
Exactly, that's the problem. Five minutes to code and no time spent on thinking about the wider impact.
Too much is being done with no sense of focus.
Oh look I can just fiddle with this for 5 minutes. Whoops broke something, nevermind, I'll just leave it and go break something else.
Yes this is a snapshot and things might change before the end, but if a bit of thought went into these changes to begin with, then no later adjustments would be needed.
Anyway, I think this change might well be the tip of a larger (but probably ill thought out) iceberg, but I still manitain that there's lots of other stuff that needs work, before doing things like this.
Sorry, what did you say? Apologies... Ear infection.
Exactly. Sums up you guys entirely.
And even with a check list, trying to identify WHAT you found was op, you ignored that too, as I was trying to identify what PRECISELY you saw as the problem.
MOST of you (redstone vet excluded) have been jerking us around this entire thread, ignoring / not reading well thought out responses, refusing to answer hot questions, and being rude on many many occasions.
As for the pigeon comment, You know what they say about playing chess with pigeons. No matter how good you are at chess, the pigeon will knock all the pieces over, crap on the board, and strut around like its victorious.
and whether or not this took 5 minutes to code or 5 hours(I know it wasn't this, shut up), WHATEVER amount of time this took, could of been spent say, working on something that wouldn't divide us so much (Like more potion options, even just being spawn-able in creative mode)
I'm not going to enter into a philosophical debate about what constitutes difficulty. Any reasonable person would agree that nerfing bonemeal increases the time it takes you to gather food which is necessary for survival. As a result you are forced to build and maintain an actual farm.
If none of you can admit that food is necessary for survival and that the bonemeal nerf forces you to construct a better farm, which takes time and effort, then we are clearly not going to get anywhere because you are unwilling to face reality.
And even with a check list, trying to identify WHAT you found was op, you ignored that too, as I was trying to identify what PRECISELY you saw as the problem.
MOST of you (redstone vet excluded) have been jerking us around this entire thread, ignoring / not reading well thought out responses, refusing to answer hot questions, and being rude on many many occasions.
As for the pigeon comment, You know what they say about playing chess with pigeons. No matter how good you are at chess, the pigeon will knock all the pieces over, crap on the board, and strut around like its victorious.
I haven't been here the whole thread. I'm coming in at the end and trying to explain why the argument is stupid. On both sides.
This isn't chess. This is opinionated minecrafters on an internet forum that have argued over the last ten pages over what is THE most INSIGNIFICANT change since bats.
I read the first two pages before I hopped to the last page. Feel free to convince me. I could care less whether they change it or leave it as it used to be (removing the dispenser functionality, of course). My ears are wide open as long as you cease the ad hominem garbage and act civilized.
I'm not going to enter into a philosophical debate with you about what constitutes difficulty. Any reasonable person would agree that nerfing bonemeal increases the time it takes you to gather food which is necessary for survival. As a result you are forced to build and maintain an actual farm.
If none of you can admit that food is necessary for survival and that the bonemeal nerf forces you to construct a better farm, which takes time and effort, then we are clearly not going to get anywhere because you are unwilling to face reality.
This is more or less an accurate summation. Might I ask (since I've ignored this thread until now) what you advocate in regards to the bonemeal change?
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I'm not going to enter into a philosophical debate about what constitutes difficulty. Any reasonable person would agree that nerfing bonemeal increases the time it takes you to gather food which is necessary for survival. As a result you are forced to build and maintain an actual farm.
If none of you can admit that food is necessary for survival and that the bonemeal nerf forces you to construct a better farm, which takes time and effort, then we are clearly not going to get anywhere because you are unwilling to face reality.
Again... AGAIN.... The "time" it takes to gather food is almost a non factor once you have a farm. If you have a farm, stores of food, getting food takes .5 seconds, going into a chest, grabbing a stack of bread / meat.
This only effects those without farms of reasonable size, whom already sometimes struggle (And depending how you define struggle, you could even say its ALWAYS a struggle)
Again... AGAIN.... The "time" it takes to gather food is almost a non factor once you have a farm. If you have a farm, stores of food, getting food takes .5 seconds, going into a chest, grabbing a stack of bread / meat.
This only effects those without farms of reasonable size, whom already sometimes struggle (And depending how you define struggle, you could even say its ALWAYS a struggle)
Again... AGAIN.... The "time" it takes to gather food is almost a non factor once you have a farm. If you have a farm, stores of food, getting food takes .5 seconds, going into a chest, grabbing a stack of bread / meat.
This only effects those without farms of reasonable size, whom already sometimes struggle (And depending how you define struggle, you could even say its ALWAYS a struggle)
So make a reasonably sized farm...?
Just saying, the only thing I ever use bonemeal for is for getting enough crops to get a good farm started, especially when I get my first potato or carrot.
If it's smarter and easier to establish a larger farm, why are you upset about the change? I'd say the main reason for the change is because you could build a contraption that takes one click of seeds and would produce wheat immediately, since the dispensers can now apply it for you. That's twice as efficient as timing two clicks and requires less circuitry for the build.
I don't understand the reason for opposing the bonemeal change. Give me a list of your grievances and help me to understand your position.
YOUR MISSING THE POINT!!!!!!!!!
Without a farm its a struggle
WITH A FARM, ITS NOT AN ISSUE.
LOOK AT THE FIRST HALF OF MY FRONT POST INSTEAD OF IGNORING IT.
I think you are missing his point as much as he is missing yours. If lacking a farm makes you struggle and with a farm you have no issue, why not... have a farm?
I don't understand where you are coming from. I'd like to understand, if you can turn off caps lock and explain to me from the beginning how this affects you. "When I play, I do x... This is bad for me because y... here is a list of supporting stuff. 123456..."
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My head aches from trying to get you to acknowledge a single point.
The "time" it takes to gather food is almost a non factor once you have a farm. If you have a farm, stores of food, getting food takes .5 seconds, going into a chest, grabbing a stack of bread / meat.
My head aches from trying to get you to acknowledge a single point.
The "time" it takes to gather food is almost a non factor once you have a farm. If you have a farm, stores of food, getting food takes .5 seconds, going into a chest, grabbing a stack of bread / meat.
I. Think. We. All. Agree. On. That.
Why've you started ignoring my posts? I'm trying to understand your position and maybe once you let me in on the secret I can explain it to dear cecil because clearly he doesn't understand what you want either.
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My head aches from trying to get you to acknowledge a single point.
The "time" it takes to gather food is almost a non factor once you have a farm. If you have a farm, stores of food, getting food takes .5 seconds, going into a chest, grabbing a stack of bread / meat.
I agree. The nerf adds difficulty to farming and forces you to build an actual farm. This is what I have been saying for pages.
I agree. The nerf adds difficulty to farming and forces you to build an actual farm. This is what I have been saying for pages.
Yes, but assuming you have a farm, this means NOTHING. Since farmers generally harvest when they are around, and mine all the rest of the time, since a farm of any size grows on its own.
I agree. The nerf adds difficulty to farming and forces you to build an actual farm. This is what I have been saying for pages.
I think he is saying that once you have a farm, it doesn't matter whether you have bonemeal or not - so why change it? What makes it overpowered? Am I right, Mumbles?
He does not understand that you should get very low yield from "farming" if you don't actually "make a farm". There was no reason to make a full-size farm before, you didn't really "need" to do it. Carry seeds and bones with you and you can always just till the dirt and make enough wheat to feed yourself. In the field, and at very low cost, and almost instantaneously. This was overpowered functionality.
For some reason I think he is looking at it like the only purpose bonemeal served was for getting a farm started and that now it is harder and you essentially miss the "window of opportunity" for it to be useful. That's blatantly inaccurate and I can guarantee that bonemeal will still be used.
Mumbles, do you realize this is for balancing because of the dispenser's new ability to use the bonemeal?
Why are you still ignoring me? I'm starting to change my opinion about you. I was very keen on helping the others understand your point. It is obvious you are not communicating it to them well enough for them to understand.
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I think he is saying that once you have a farm, it doesn't matter whether you have bonemeal or not - so why change it? What makes it overpowered? Am I right, Mumbles?
He does not understand that you should get very low yield from "farming" if you don't actually "make a farm". There was no reason to make a full-size farm before, you didn't really "need" to do it. Carry seeds and bones with you and you can always just till the dirt and make enough wheat to feed yourself. In the field, and at very low cost, and almost instantaneously. This was overpowered functionality.
For some reason I think he is looking at it like the only purpose bonemeal served was for getting a farm started and that now it is harder and you essentially miss the "window of opportunity" for it to be useful. That's blatantly inaccurate and I can guarantee that bonemeal will still be used.
Mumbles, do you realize this is for balancing because of the dispenser's new ability to use the bonemeal?
Why are you still ignoring me? I'm starting to change my opinion about you. I was very keen on helping the others understand your point. It is obvious you are not communicating it to them well enough for them to understand.
I'm already forced to make a farm if I want to get on with my "life".
Its not like I can rely on bone mealing for my entire game (I mean I "could" but this would be a gigantic pain in the butt. Just like I "could" beat zelda 1 without a sword)
there's still a gigantic benefit to a farm, mainly food becoming low maintenance, and allowing you to focus on the actual GAME.
SO... Yes, there's always benefit to a farm. 1.4.7 or 1.5, it's good to have a farm. I still don't understand your complaint. It seems all you are doing is saying that it was not overpowered. All you seem to be doing is going after OUR points to "prove us wrong". I want to hear YOUR points.
I'm not arguing against you (even though I think the "bonemeal solution" solution is even worse than keeping the current bonemeal). I'm trying to understand your position because no one here understands WHY you are so fervently fighting to keep bonemeal the same.
How does this negatively impact your playing experience? How does it affect you? If it's about being able to start a farm quickly, couldn't you have started 20 farms from scratch without bonemeal in the time you've spent on this topic? If that's not it, what is it?
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Idon't understand the reason for opposing the bonemeal change. Give me a list of your grievances and help me to understand your position.
What is the reason for supporting the change?
We have established food gathering isn't an issue, one can easily set up a farm in the first few days and survive off animals and the like in the interum. So what does it matter that someone near the end game can build a redstone contraption to mass produce wheat?
All the change really does is punish people for not playing the game "how I play the game". Heck I don't even remember anyone really complaining about bonemeal until after the change and then suddenly everyone was all "OMG thank god they nerfed bonemeal it was destroying the game"....
I personally have better things to do with my redstone than build a wheat farm because running a normal farm with stome cattle and growing mushrooms in my basement (all without bonemeal) is just easier. So how exactly does it effect me if someone somewhere builds an automated wheat farm? Why should my prefered method of sandboxing be forced on them?
The only thing more troubling about the bonemeal nerf is the whole attitude surrounding the change, it's nearly miasmic.
As far as general changes to bonemeal I'm fairly receptive when it comes to some tweaking it a bit and from the sound of it they are still working on the ballance. Hopefully they come to a decent, I don't even want to say comprimise because it's an artificial issue in the first place.... but comprimise.
Get real. This change probably took like five minutes to code.
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http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1669186-compilation-of-bonemeal-solutions-the-poll/
Ordinarily I wouldn't promote a topic on another topic, but I believe I've found pretty much all of the sensible solutions posted on the forums for bonemeal (while it's being worked on anyway, you know). Some of the solutions are popular (including "Leave it alone from 1.4.7 to 1.5") and one of them I really like but hadn't gotten its own topic (Area-of-Effect bonemeal).
Might as well make it into a poll and see which one is most popular without having to read three ten+ page topics where people are just senselessly bickering.
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Exactly, that's the problem. Five minutes to code and no time spent on thinking about the wider impact.
Too much is being done with no sense of focus.
Oh look I can just fiddle with this for 5 minutes. Whoops broke something, nevermind, I'll just leave it and go break something else.
Yes this is a snapshot and things might change before the end, but if a bit of thought went into these changes to begin with, then no later adjustments would be needed.
Anyway, I think this change might well be the tip of a larger (but probably ill thought out) iceberg, but I still manitain that there's lots of other stuff that needs work, before doing things like this.
Exactly. Sums up you guys entirely.
And even with a check list, trying to identify WHAT you found was op, you ignored that too, as I was trying to identify what PRECISELY you saw as the problem.
MOST of you (redstone vet excluded) have been jerking us around this entire thread, ignoring / not reading well thought out responses, refusing to answer hot questions, and being rude on many many occasions.
As for the pigeon comment, You know what they say about playing chess with pigeons. No matter how good you are at chess, the pigeon will knock all the pieces over, crap on the board, and strut around like its victorious.
and whether or not this took 5 minutes to code or 5 hours(I know it wasn't this, shut up), WHATEVER amount of time this took, could of been spent say, working on something that wouldn't divide us so much (Like more potion options, even just being spawn-able in creative mode)
I'm not going to enter into a philosophical debate about what constitutes difficulty. Any reasonable person would agree that nerfing bonemeal increases the time it takes you to gather food which is necessary for survival. As a result you are forced to build and maintain an actual farm.
If none of you can admit that food is necessary for survival and that the bonemeal nerf forces you to construct a better farm, which takes time and effort, then we are clearly not going to get anywhere because you are unwilling to face reality.
I haven't been here the whole thread. I'm coming in at the end and trying to explain why the argument is stupid. On both sides.
This isn't chess. This is opinionated minecrafters on an internet forum that have argued over the last ten pages over what is THE most INSIGNIFICANT change since bats.
I read the first two pages before I hopped to the last page. Feel free to convince me. I could care less whether they change it or leave it as it used to be (removing the dispenser functionality, of course). My ears are wide open as long as you cease the ad hominem garbage and act civilized.
This is more or less an accurate summation. Might I ask (since I've ignored this thread until now) what you advocate in regards to the bonemeal change?
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Again... AGAIN.... The "time" it takes to gather food is almost a non factor once you have a farm. If you have a farm, stores of food, getting food takes .5 seconds, going into a chest, grabbing a stack of bread / meat.
This only effects those without farms of reasonable size, whom already sometimes struggle (And depending how you define struggle, you could even say its ALWAYS a struggle)
Build a bigger farm?
YOUR MISSING THE POINT!!!!!!!!!
Without a farm its a struggle
WITH A FARM, ITS NOT AN ISSUE.
LOOK AT THE FIRST HALF OF MY FRONT POST INSTEAD OF IGNORING IT.
READ.
THE.
FIRST.
HALF.
So build a farm?
So make a reasonably sized farm...?
Just saying, the only thing I ever use bonemeal for is for getting enough crops to get a good farm started, especially when I get my first potato or carrot.
If it's smarter and easier to establish a larger farm, why are you upset about the change? I'd say the main reason for the change is because you could build a contraption that takes one click of seeds and would produce wheat immediately, since the dispensers can now apply it for you. That's twice as efficient as timing two clicks and requires less circuitry for the build.
I don't understand the reason for opposing the bonemeal change. Give me a list of your grievances and help me to understand your position.
I think you are missing his point as much as he is missing yours. If lacking a farm makes you struggle and with a farm you have no issue, why not... have a farm?
I don't understand where you are coming from. I'd like to understand, if you can turn off caps lock and explain to me from the beginning how this affects you. "When I play, I do x... This is bad for me because y... here is a list of supporting stuff. 123456..."
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My head aches from trying to get you to acknowledge a single point.
The "time" it takes to gather food is almost a non factor once you have a farm. If you have a farm, stores of food, getting food takes .5 seconds, going into a chest, grabbing a stack of bread / meat.
I. Think. We. All. Agree. On. That.
Why've you started ignoring my posts? I'm trying to understand your position and maybe once you let me in on the secret I can explain it to dear cecil because clearly he doesn't understand what you want either.
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I agree. The nerf adds difficulty to farming and forces you to build an actual farm. This is what I have been saying for pages.
Yes, but assuming you have a farm, this means NOTHING. Since farmers generally harvest when they are around, and mine all the rest of the time, since a farm of any size grows on its own.
I think he is saying that once you have a farm, it doesn't matter whether you have bonemeal or not - so why change it? What makes it overpowered? Am I right, Mumbles?
He does not understand that you should get very low yield from "farming" if you don't actually "make a farm". There was no reason to make a full-size farm before, you didn't really "need" to do it. Carry seeds and bones with you and you can always just till the dirt and make enough wheat to feed yourself. In the field, and at very low cost, and almost instantaneously. This was overpowered functionality.
For some reason I think he is looking at it like the only purpose bonemeal served was for getting a farm started and that now it is harder and you essentially miss the "window of opportunity" for it to be useful. That's blatantly inaccurate and I can guarantee that bonemeal will still be used.
Mumbles, do you realize this is for balancing because of the dispenser's new ability to use the bonemeal?
Why are you still ignoring me? I'm starting to change my opinion about you. I was very keen on helping the others understand your point. It is obvious you are not communicating it to them well enough for them to understand.
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I'm already forced to make a farm if I want to get on with my "life".
Its not like I can rely on bone mealing for my entire game (I mean I "could" but this would be a gigantic pain in the butt. Just like I "could" beat zelda 1 without a sword)
there's still a gigantic benefit to a farm, mainly food becoming low maintenance, and allowing you to focus on the actual GAME.
And, since you say this is about dispensers
http://www.minecraft...emeal-solution/
Ok, got your attention. Great.
SO... Yes, there's always benefit to a farm. 1.4.7 or 1.5, it's good to have a farm. I still don't understand your complaint. It seems all you are doing is saying that it was not overpowered. All you seem to be doing is going after OUR points to "prove us wrong". I want to hear YOUR points.
As for your link, you should know I have already read that topic because it is included here:
Compilation of Bonemeal Solutions - The Poll!
I'm not arguing against you (even though I think the "bonemeal solution" solution is even worse than keeping the current bonemeal). I'm trying to understand your position because no one here understands WHY you are so fervently fighting to keep bonemeal the same.
How does this negatively impact your playing experience? How does it affect you? If it's about being able to start a farm quickly, couldn't you have started 20 farms from scratch without bonemeal in the time you've spent on this topic? If that's not it, what is it?
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What is the reason for supporting the change?
We have established food gathering isn't an issue, one can easily set up a farm in the first few days and survive off animals and the like in the interum. So what does it matter that someone near the end game can build a redstone contraption to mass produce wheat?
All the change really does is punish people for not playing the game "how I play the game". Heck I don't even remember anyone really complaining about bonemeal until after the change and then suddenly everyone was all "OMG thank god they nerfed bonemeal it was destroying the game"....
I personally have better things to do with my redstone than build a wheat farm because running a normal farm with stome cattle and growing mushrooms in my basement (all without bonemeal) is just easier. So how exactly does it effect me if someone somewhere builds an automated wheat farm? Why should my prefered method of sandboxing be forced on them?
The only thing more troubling about the bonemeal nerf is the whole attitude surrounding the change, it's nearly miasmic.
As far as general changes to bonemeal I'm fairly receptive when it comes to some tweaking it a bit and from the sound of it they are still working on the ballance. Hopefully they come to a decent, I don't even want to say comprimise because it's an artificial issue in the first place.... but comprimise.