Cecil, it’s time for you to go back into your box…
Your assertion that the use of bonemeal to grow and harvest a large wheat crop is more efficient than simply allowing a large field of wheat to grow on its own is false.
Anyone who has played Minecraft survival for any length of time will tell you that.
The more advanced player will simply lay out a series of modest wheat fields and leave them to grow (you have unlimited space after all). Every so often they’ll harvest and replant one of the fields and reap an abundance of wheat from it. This activity takes no more than a few minutes and only has to be done once in a while to keep the player stocked. It does not consume any resources and so is repeatable indefinitely.
The only constraining factor is growing time, but if you are pottering around nearby doing something else, then you can guarantee that by the time you need more food it will have grown again.
At some point the player will branch out into meat farming and use the wheat to breed food with more sustenance value, but again, the process is self-sustaining. You don’t have to employ any consumables (like bone meal for instance) to make it work. Indeed having to faff around applying bonemeal to every wheat plant would be a ridiculously tedious task.
So that’s that argument won. Don’t bring it up again.
Regarding the hunger bar and food in general, the need for food in the game is not intended to be a form of persecution. The likes of Mackinz has it right. Hunger is there as a mild background consideration to coerce the player into thinking about how to manage it and hence injecting a variation into the survival game play style. It gives the player something else to do and keeps up the level of interest.
That’s why there are so many different ways of feeding yourself. You are given lots of farming options to try out.
The hunger mechanic can also be exploited by adventure map makers to provide challenge, but that’s a completely separate topic.
Survival is not purely (or even mainly) about subsistence, but actually more about mining with the aim of crafting (food, tools, buildings, cities, etc.) within an interesting, dynamic and, at times, mildly hostile world.
If staying alive was a constant nightmare of desperate foraging and confrontation, then the mining and crafting parts would be forced to take a bit of a backseat and that would spoil things for most players I’d imagine.
Your problem is that you’ve out grown the initial challenge of the game and now that you are in a position of power (being resource and or knowledge rich) you want to be tested further. The fact of the matter is that the challenge as exists is quite challenge enough for new players and is still something to be mindful of for advanced players.
I’d suggest that you go seek your thrills through mods, adventure maps and PvP, rather than trying to foist your ill thought out ideas for difficultly increases on others, who are quite happy with the way things are already.
In any case, changing the bonemeal mechanic as a way of upping difficulty is a pretty lame way of going about it in the first place. There are much more exciting and imaginative ways that could be employed to do that.
Please refer to and cogitate upon my post at 29/01/2013 - 01:31 PM (page 7), as it pretty much describes the way you have conducted yourself in this thread.
Nonsense. Bonemealing takes one more click than normal farming. Thats 3 vs 2 for each wheat. Once you automate harvesting with water you can cut that to 1 click for each wheat.
^This is a null point. It's not about the amount of clicks. It's completely about time.
Bonemeal is instant. If I had enough bones and 1 seed I could make an entire chest full of wheat in about 5 minutes. You can't get a chest full of wheat in 5 minutes with 1 seed by building a normal farm and waiting for it to grow so they can replant again and again until they are able to make a large harvest. You also mentioned having to automate your farm which takes even more time and more resources.
The hunger system is directly tied to the regeneration system.... -snip-
More leeway with health encourages the player to take risks, like taking fall damage, that were previously abhorred and avoided because healing required wasting hotbar and inventory slots.
-snip-
1) allow custom map makers to make tougher, more challenging maps
2) allow for more unique items and add depth to the game
3) to add an additional risk to PvPing
So, how does any of this mean that the bonemeal nerf wasn't because of it undermined the food restoration and hunger bar system? None of the things you just mentioned would work without it. Bonemeal makes everything you just said easier.
Maybe the developers have decided it is time for the hunger system to live up to the intended purpose. I can think of no good reason to include the need to eat other than to increase difficulty.
The OP clearly shows the addiction to instant gratification that afflicts a growing number of people. It is so evident in the Minecraft. Faster mining. Faster pickaxes. Instant crops. Quicker furnaces. More storage. I think people should slow down and be patient. Crops take time to grow.
Heck, it should take time to place blocks!
Instant gratification over my dead body! It's not that I use bonemeal all the time it's just that when you need it then you need.... Okay I can't really explain but -snip-. Minecraft surely isn't for the impatient but things like this nerf can be fearful for what the future will hold. You say that blocks should take time to be placed but I call that fricken crazy. Minecraft is a sandbox game for crying out loud. There is survival but it shouldn't be really really hard( there is hardcore for that ). Maybe they should add extra time to everything! Add few more clicks here and make this and that take longer..... I mean seriously? Also crops on their own will grow fine and if YOU are on single player you WILL have lots of food more than YOU can eat. Just because bonemeal is nerfed doesn't mean you can't supply a surplus of food.
This nerf doesn't add difficulty that would make the game fun what so ever. The nerf was intended for what I believe was for dispencers. IF Mojang that old bonemealing was OP they should have changed that a long time ago. There are numerous compromises that have been posted on these forums. They come in four forms:
Either make crafting bonemeal more complicated or give less bonemeal from bones (1:1)
Only apply the nerf to dispersers and return the old bonemeal back to HAND placed bonemeal.
Reduce nerf to 2 cycles of bonemeal for wheat, carrots, potatoes and 3 cycles for melon/pumpkin stems and 2-4 cycles for trees and 1 for mushrooms.
And finally a new one for all you survival cray cray people. LEAVE the nerf to HARDCORE.
Also if I wanted instant gratification I wouldn't be playing near vanilla SMP and I also hate tekkit/FTB.
Where there is an issue with two sides there should be compromise or a solution.
So, how does any of this mean that the bonemeal nerf wasn't because of it undermined the food restoration and hunger bar system? None of the things you just mentioned would work without it. Bonemeal makes everything you just said easier.
Because it doesn't undermine the food restoration and hunger bar system.
As I've been saying consistently throughout the week, the overabundance of food regardless of Bonemeals existence and use undermines the threat of starvation. Bonemeal simply expedites the farming process a tad.
Just because you can rely on Bonemeal as your source of food, does not mean that you actually have any advantages over the people who do not rely on Bonemeal as their source of food. Food is plenty abundant without factoring in Bonemeal, and only becomes even more common the longer you stay on a map, voiding any advantages you might have and they were already insignificant.
I'm not going to try to change your ways, but, seriously, having some extra food is far from a game-breaking issue.
cecilhowe, on 30 January 2013 - 06:19 AM, said: Maybe the developers have decided it is time for the hunger system to live up to the intended purpose. I can think of no good reason to include the need to eat other than to increase difficulty.
^ This.
^ Not this.
If you can think of no good reason to include eating/food other than pure difficulty then you are not thinking.
Bone meal just makes plants grow quicker. It isn't a panacea for the food supply issues of new players (they aren't likely to have much bonemeal anyway) and it is of little relevance to the food supply of advanced players (as I have already outlined in previous posts).
Bonemeal is not primarily utilised in the way you are making out (not by those that have any sense at any rate). Therefore talking about it in terms of survival difficulty is irrelevant. So stop doing so.
Bone meal just makes plants grow quicker. It isn't a panacea for the food supply issues of new players (they aren't likely to have much bonemeal anyway) and it is of little relevance to the food supply of advanced players (as I have already outlined in previous posts).
Lies. Wheat leads to breeding which leads to enchanting, a fleet of rideable pigs, and massive amounts of wool. Even for players with an endless amount of food wheat can be important to fighting, building, and exploring.
Not one retort has addressed the chain of uses wheat has other than food. So sure, food can be easy to get, but that doesn't stop the need for wheat. All a player needs for their huge ship sails is one tilled soil block, one seed, and bonemeal. All a player needs for enchanting books for emerald trading is one tilled soil block, one seed, a little XP, and bonemeal.
Why not make those processes harder to accomplish?
This argument is still challenge versus "why fix what isn't broken." Which is a poor point of debate.
I would point to DayZ as an example of a very different kind of survival game based on the management of resources such as food. It's a larger factor there than in Minecraft.
I watched a DayZ LP a few months ago where the player was kicking an ungodly amount of ass, but eventually died from hunger. It made for some good watching, that's for sure.
Lies. Wheat leads to breeding which leads to enchanting, a fleet of rideable pigs, and massive amounts of wool. Even for players with an endless amount of food wheat can be important to fighting, building, and exploring.
Not one retort has addressed the chain of uses wheat has other than food. So sure, food can be easy to get, but that doesn't stop the need for wheat. All a player needs for their huge ship sails is one tilled soil block, one seed, and bonemeal. All a player needs for enchanting books for emerald trading is one tilled soil block, one seed, a little XP, and bonemeal.
Why not make those processes harder to accomplish?
This argument is still challenge versus "why fix what isn't broken." Which is a poor point of debate.
Okay, let's go make the already-better-than-Bonemeal Wheat growth alternative harder to accomplish, and then we can finally add a false sense of difficulty to those who think that surviving in Minecraft should be "difficult". Farming wheat, without Bonemeal, leads to the same result: infinite wheat, enchanting, a fleet of rideable (lol) pigs and massive amounts of wool, and doesn't take nearly as long as you would think.
Bonemeal doesn't change anything in Vanilla. You can accomplish the breeding of Cows without ever touching Bonemeal, and it is the better alternative because you can go do other things in the meantime, so you're not changing the difficulty in breeding Cows, getting Leather, making Books, making Bookshelves, and enchanting until you actually nerf Wheat.
The end result is the same either way you spin it. You're not going to convince anyone that Bonemeal is OP when Wheat isn't hard to grow regardless, and food is incredibly easy to obtain regardless.
Because it doesn't undermine the food restoration and hunger bar system.
As I've been saying consistently throughout the week, the overabundance of food regardless of Bonemeals existence and use undermines the threat of starvation. Bonemeal simply expedites the farming process a tad.
You still have to wait for the food to grow, or breed animals with wheat - which you needs time to grow. You cannot reasonably say that speeding up a process to the extent that you have a constant supply of instant food doesn't decrease difficulty. It defies all logic.
You just mentioned an entire list of things that deplete your heath! Food heals you! You might as well have no hunger bar at all, if you have a constant supply of instant food. You can keep ignoring this point, but its going to get you nowhere. I'm tired of responding to these 1/2 baked arguments. I made this point pages ago.
If you can think of no good reason to include eating/food other than pure difficulty then you are not thinking.
Increasing difficulty is a perfectly valid reason on its own.
Any other reason you want to add will only contributes to my point. Anything else would still function with the hunger bar and food restoration system, therefore the nerf still increases the difficulty.
Alright, I want to know exactly why cecil thinks current wheat is OP.
Check all that apply
*Having over a thousand bone meal makes it op*
*Breeding costing 1 wheat is OP*
*Newbs not dying from starvation is OP* (Seriously?...But hell, I'll put this as an option)
*It further boosts giant farm productivity slightly*
And bellow is my explanations for each.
*This is because you have 1000 of it. Again, having 1000 diamond has a MUCH more profound effect, maintenance or not. I could easily get several sets of diamond equipment to burn through this way, so maintanance could be disregarded for quiet some time, since I could just rely on the massive number. If is was just 10 though, Eventually they would break, and I wouldn't have another 10 to make (without working). AND, by the time you have this much, farming is often producing at such a rate that the farms normal rate of production DWARFS what you can possibly do by hand. You may say "But dispensers!", though this is detailed here. http://www.minecraft...emeal-solution/
*This is one of the few things I can understand, but rather than nerfing bone meal, why don't we RAISE the cost of breeding? Say like, a wheat block made with 4 wheat, so breeding is slightly more costly? I wouldn't mind this since again, by the time I get a self sufficient farm, the difference between 1 and 4 wheat isn't much, its only when I'm starting out that I ration it. This way you would still be encouraged to make a full farm, but using it purely to survive (Our whole argument btw) Will still be possible. That and for you (since you and others have ADMITTED never using it) This will actually make a difference, making breeding more of an investment, while also allowing more compact wheat storage! Win win win?
*The least logical argument of the bunch. As I've said before, nobody ever toppled a kingdom armed with a sword made of bread, wearing bread armor, leading in a bread soldier army to kill everyone (Though this would be hilarious). All this allows is the lowest of the low (those who are hungry...and don't tell me there's anyone lower than this, food is THE most necessary thing in game, even WOOD comes second) The ability to feed themselves. This provides no advantage in PVP (Some guy with a stone sword will win, even if he DOESN'T have regeneration) It only enables them to get out of the poverty stage of minecraft which just about everyone HATES starting in. (I've never really enjoyed starving to death, over building a rustic styled mountain shack in the snowy hills ) A majority of players find food when you have nothing is more of a burden than a "neat mechanic". It only becomes so later, when your deep underground and your keeping an eye on how many meat slices you have, since if you run out before hitting the surface, it could spell the end for you. THIS is why I enjoy hunger. Not spawning into something uncertain.
*This one is bunk for the following : Farms produce wheat regardless of player action, and the bigger the farm, the bigger the output. After a certain size, the "ratio" of bone meal profit to existing food income shrinks. a 6 block farm will benefit sure. but a 600?...It won't be very noticeable, and it would be a waste of the players time. Its a waste, cause it will grow more than the player needs anyway, so the player gets no benefit besides a "slightly" bigger "stockpile". A stockpile which only becomes useful under the following conditions:
*Farm gets destroyed somehow, halting wheat production.
*Wheat demand skyrockets to 5 times what they were before (SMP ONLY)
*Some external force keeps the player from reaching the farm for harvest
Besides these 3 scenarios, there is no benefit to having a MASSIVE storage of wheat, or making it bigger, besides saving maybe 10 seconds by not harvesting...and even then its 10 seconds
Redstone, yes food heals you but your missing one HUGE thing about this. Besides newbs (people who don't have jack to begin with) EVERY SINGLE STINKING PERSON FROM ROYALTY, BANDITS, MERCHANTS, NOMADS, ARTISTS, TOWN GUARDS, HUNTERS, ABSOLUTELY ANYONE HAS THIS ABILITY TO HEAL PASSIVELY, AND WRITE OFF HUNGER ANYWAY.
The ONLY people this effects is poor people, anyone else with a settlement and even a small wheat farm will be none the wiser and their storage's of meat / fruit / wheat mean nothing changes for them. "You might as well have no hunger bar at all, if you have a constant supply of instant food". This is EXACTLY what everyone ELSE has. How can you get ANY more instant than removing 20 steaks from a chest? YOU CANNOT. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. And the poor guys still work for that bone meal, so its by no means instant. The only instant gratification here is with giant farms, since one they are up they require almost no work (Besides replanting, occasionally fixing a creeper crater) And they almost always provide more food than 1 person (Or even 2) can manage to eat, even with sprint hopping around all day.
So someone, answer me this : Why Is bone mealing wheat writing off hunger more than a giant farm where all people do is shovel food into their inventory, and don't worry about how much they will eat, since they produce more than they can consume?
You still have to wait for the food to grow, or breed animals with wheat - which you needs time to grow. You cannot reasonably say that speeding up a process to the extent that you have a constant supply of instant food doesn't decrease difficulty. It defies all logic.
It doesn't. There isn't difficulty in waiting for food to grow, unless you actually don't have food, and the ability to breed animals doesn't get sped up significantly unless you think that the difference between breeding a bit immediately and breeding after your harvest really matters in the short or long term.
Quote from »
You just mentioned an entire list of things that deplete your heath! Food heals you!
What?
You might as well have no hunger bar at all, if you have a constant supply of food.
I fixed your argument by removing one word, and I agree. The hunger bar is more annoying than anything, and is not a source of difficulty in vanilla. But it does provide a tool for mapmakers to torment the players, so I think that it's fine.
You can keep ignoring this point, but its going to get you nowhere. I'm tired of responding to these 1/2 baked arguments. I made this point pages ago.
Ignoring what point? That the hunger bar is more annoyance than difficulty? Because that isn't a point. It's an intentional part of the system in vanilla.
Okay, let's go make the already-better-than-Bonemeal Wheat growth alternative harder to accomplish, and then we can finally add a false sense of difficulty to those who think that surviving in Minecraft should be "difficult". Farming wheat, without Bonemeal, leads to the same result: infinite wheat, enchanting, a fleet of rideable (lol) pigs and massive amounts of wool, and doesn't take nearly as long as you would think.
Bonemeal doesn't change anything in Vanilla. You can accomplish the breeding of Cows without ever touching Bonemeal, and it is the better alternative because you can go do other things in the meantime, so you're not changing the difficulty in breeding Cows, getting Leather, making Books, making Bookshelves, and enchanting until you actually nerf Wheat.
The end result is the same either way you spin it. You're not going to convince anyone that Bonemeal is OP when Wheat isn't hard to grow regardless, and food is incredibly easy to obtain regardless.
But why try hinder the process of making those things more difficult? Without bonemeal those things aren't impossible, but it does make them much easier to accomplish. If you want to make a giant sail for your boat, but don't want to play by the rules, there is creative mode.
Redstone, yes food heals you but your missing one HUGE thing about this. Besides newbs (people who don't have jack to begin with) EVERY SINGLE STINKING PERSON FROM ROYALTY, BANDITS, MERCHANTS, NOMADS, ARTISTS, TOWN GUARDS, HUNTERS, ABSOLUTELY ANYONE HAS THIS ABILITY TO HEAL PASSIVELY, AND WRITE OFF HUNGER ANYWAY.
This paragraph has no place in this debate. It makes no sense. There are no royalty, bandits, merchants, nomads, artists, town guards, and hunters in vanilla minecraft. Furthermore, no one playing on a difficulty higher than peaceful will heal passively if they are hungry. If there is some way to heal passively (meaning the player heals without doing anything) that I don't know about, I would like to know.
What's more; you keep using my current single player survival game to drive your arguments. Stop it; it is an infirm way to further your point. You make it seem as if I said that by the Bear Blood Dripping From The Beard Of My Ancestors I would never use bonemeal. That is a lie, I only mentioned that in my current world I let my crops grow naturally. I even admit to using bonemeal as means to get emeralds quick. Something that shouldn't have been so easy.
Ten pages of arguing over the philosophical nuances of the usages and functions of various game aspects, countless perspectives of what the game is "meant" to be... Everyone trying to argue opinion as if it's fact. Pages and pages of people bickering endlessly and not one person has had their mind changed.
Fact is that everyone here can see "obvious" flaws in the other people's opinions. Because EVERY argument here is based on some level of subjectivity.
My opinion? I like BC_Programming's idea to make the bonemeal advance one growth stage but also work as an area-of-effect from where you apply it. Could be used to make some really cool tree-strangulation traps, too.
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My opinion? I like BC_Programming's idea to make the bonemeal advance one growth stage but also work as an area-of-effect from where you apply it. Could be used to make some really cool tree-strangulation traps, too.
This paragraph has no place in this debate. It makes no sense. There are no royalty, bandits, merchants, nomads, artists, town guards, and hunters in vanilla minecraft. Furthermore, no one playing on a difficulty higher than peaceful will heal passively if they are hungry. If there is someway to heal passively (meaning the player heals without doing anything) that I don't know about, I would like to know.
You are basing your dismisal on the WORDS Used. So let me rephrase it so you might actually get the point.
Besides people on their first couple days, NOBODY gets hungry without outright neglecting it. If you have a wheat farm bigger than 10 blocks, hunger is a non issue. This is what I meant by bandits / royalty and all that. If you have a self sufficient food source (Even a small farm, which damn near anyone whos not a new spawn has) Food is not an issue, as you have more than you need. If you starve, its because you didn't put it into your inventory, or "forgot" to eat, letting your hunger drop to zero despite the fact you have food.
This has been my argument the whole time. If you have a farm, Food isn't something you worry about. You take what you need, eat what you need, and besides when your hunger drops 1/2 down, you don't even think about hunger.
The advantage between someone going for their first diamonds, and someone who has collected the ender egg when it comes to food is almost NOTHING, since neither party will starve.
This is what I mean. Now stop dancing around what I say, its getting old cecil.
Lies. Wheat leads to breeding which leads to enchanting, a fleet of rideable pigs, and massive amounts of wool. Even for players with an endless amount of food wheat can be important to fighting, building, and exploring.
I'm not sure if you have difficulty with comprehension or not (a troll maybe – oh noes!), but as previous posts by myself and others have made completely clear, the amassing of a large wheat horde (to be used for whatever purpose) can be easily accomplished without bonemeal, and in fact using bonemeal doesn't offer much of an advantage, if any.
It might save a few minutes on the farm in some situations (which you have to balance against bonemeal collection – I bet you have a mob grinder for that eh?), but the cost in tedious grindy game play to use bonemeal (even with one click growing) for volume farming would far outweigh any advantages (for me at any rate).
The only difference I imagine is that (beside having to source the bonemeal to begin with) you spam a small number of soil blocks, planting, boning, growing and harvesting in an obviously artificial machine like way, whereas folk who have embraced the creation of a more realistic world actually plant fields and wait a little (working on their building projects in the interim).
Do people actually use bonemeal in the way Cecil thinks they do? Is it fun? Does it need to be fun if it’s just a means to an end? Is Cecil wasting his time or is he an agricultural genius? Anyone?
Anyway, if it does go to seven bonemeal clicks per wheat, then your farming method is screwed anyway, so you’d better be arguing against the change if you know what’s good for you.
So what will we have gained after the change? I’ll farm naturally like I always did and get loads of easy wheat, but now, when I want wheat immediately for some localised purpose, I won’t have the luxury of instant growth without a click fest, and you’ll be boned (pardon the pun). Maybe the change is worth it just for that ;-)
But why try hinder the process of making those things more difficult? Without bonemeal those things aren't impossible, but it does make them much easier to accomplish. If you want to make a giant sail for your boat, but don't want to play by the rules, there is creative mode.
Why hinder the process of making those things more difficult? Because you're not. You're making them more annoying.
It's like doing what GregTech does to IndustrialCraft. It makes creating things more annoying, not more difficult.
And then, there's the whole thing that vanilla Minecraft is not supposed to be hard.
Which is a clear oversight! Now they are fixing that! Hooray!
They haven't fixed:
Wheat
Carrots
Potatoes
Pumpkins
Melons
Pigs
Cows
Chickens
Villager Trading
Any source of food that is not listed
Oversight not corrected. Likely because it wasn't an oversight, and you are delusional in your quest for difficulty.
You are basing your dismisal on the WORDS Used. So let me rephrase it so you might actually get the point.
Besides people on their first couple days, NOBODY gets hungry without outright neglecting it. If you have a wheat farm bigger than 10 blocks, hunger is a non issue. This is what I meant by bandits / royalty and all that. If you have a self sufficient food source (Even a small farm, which damn near anyone whos not a new spawn has) Food is not an issue, as you have more than you need. If you starve, its because you didn't put it into your inventory, or "forgot" to eat, letting your hunger drop to zero despite the fact you have food.
This has been my argument the whole time. If you have a farm, Food isn't something you worry about. You take what you need, eat what you need, and besides when your hunger drops 1/2 down, you don't even think about hunger.
The advantage between someone going for their first diamonds, and someone who has collected the ender egg when it comes to food is almost NOTHING, since neither party will starve.
This is what I mean. Now stop dancing around what I say, its getting old cecil.
In that case: I disagree with food collection being so easy. It should be harder. Please debate this purely opinion statement with endless pages of repeated examples.
No one's dancing around what you're saying. They have a different opinion than you. It's like the abortion debate, but over something much more stupid and less significant. It's opinion.
The thing that is broken here is your logic circuit. Somehow you believe yourself to be the arbiter of which opinion is correct and incorrect.
"It should work like this because..."
You see, the problem is that everything after "because" is just an example. Just supporting evidence for an opinion. And the people on the other side think their evidence is better than your evidence, where you think the reverse.
What are you looking to get out of this? Does cecilhowe have to agree with your opinion before you will stop? Do you need some validation that your case is stronger? Because you both just keep repeating yourselves. For ten pages.
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In that case: I disagree with food collection being so easy. It should be harder. Please debate this purely opinion statement with endless pages of repeated examples.
No one's dancing around what you're saying. They have a different opinion than you. It's like the abortion debate, but over something much more stupid and less significant. It's opinion.
The thing that is broken here is your logic circuit. Somehow you believe yourself to be the arbiter of which opinion is correct and incorrect.
"It should work like this because..."
You see, the problem is that everything after "because" is just an example. Just supporting evidence for an opinion. And the people on the other side think their evidence is better than your evidence, where you think the reverse.
What are you looking to get out of this? Does cecilhowe have to agree with your opinion before you will stop? Do you need some validation that your case is stronger? Because you both just keep repeating yourselves. For ten pages.
So then what advantage in there in the short / mid term to having a gigantic surplus of food?
Also you guys HAVE been pretty dismissive, sometimes ignoring entire paragraphs of my posts.
Also, cecil, he said the hunger was ANNOYING. This does not make it any harder, especially for anyone with a full farm (since they do not need bone meal) It only makes it more ANNOYING for fresh spawns.
I'm bout to give up on this debate, since you guys have ignored nearly every single reason put forward so far. Its like trying to play chess with pigeons.
Bottom line is, the bonemeal change is just annoying and has no merits.
It's poor design Mojang, so leave it alone and fiddle with something more worthwhile like ocean biome content or something.
So then what advantage in there in the short / mid term to having a gigantic surplus of food?
Also you guys HAVE been pretty dismissive, sometimes ignoring entire paragraphs of my posts.
Also, cecil, he said the hunger was ANNOYING. This does not make it any harder, especially for anyone with a full farm (since they do not need bone meal) It only makes it more ANNOYING for fresh spawns.
I'm bout to give up on this debate, since you guys have ignored nearly every single reason put forward so far. Its like trying to play chess with pigeons.
Sorry, what did you say? Apologies... Ear infection.
Some people like this change. You seem to insist it's because they're already established and aren't just starting a new world. Do you mean to say that you believe none of us will start a new world from now on? Are you still on the first 5 days on your world? Do you think we only like this change because we want to make it harder for newbies? Do you think we're just fanboys who would blindly love any update from steam-power to mining lasers?
You missed my point.
Entirely.
We seem to "ignore" parts of your post because they CAN'T BE ARGUED. They are OPINION. You can't DEBATE AN OPINION. Now feel free to "give up on this debate". The pigeons won't mind. (How rude.)
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Cecil, it’s time for you to go back into your box…
Your assertion that the use of bonemeal to grow and harvest a large wheat crop is more efficient than simply allowing a large field of wheat to grow on its own is false.
Anyone who has played Minecraft survival for any length of time will tell you that.
The more advanced player will simply lay out a series of modest wheat fields and leave them to grow (you have unlimited space after all). Every so often they’ll harvest and replant one of the fields and reap an abundance of wheat from it. This activity takes no more than a few minutes and only has to be done once in a while to keep the player stocked. It does not consume any resources and so is repeatable indefinitely.
The only constraining factor is growing time, but if you are pottering around nearby doing something else, then you can guarantee that by the time you need more food it will have grown again.
At some point the player will branch out into meat farming and use the wheat to breed food with more sustenance value, but again, the process is self-sustaining. You don’t have to employ any consumables (like bone meal for instance) to make it work. Indeed having to faff around applying bonemeal to every wheat plant would be a ridiculously tedious task.
So that’s that argument won. Don’t bring it up again.
Regarding the hunger bar and food in general, the need for food in the game is not intended to be a form of persecution. The likes of Mackinz has it right. Hunger is there as a mild background consideration to coerce the player into thinking about how to manage it and hence injecting a variation into the survival game play style. It gives the player something else to do and keeps up the level of interest.
That’s why there are so many different ways of feeding yourself. You are given lots of farming options to try out.
The hunger mechanic can also be exploited by adventure map makers to provide challenge, but that’s a completely separate topic.
Survival is not purely (or even mainly) about subsistence, but actually more about mining with the aim of crafting (food, tools, buildings, cities, etc.) within an interesting, dynamic and, at times, mildly hostile world.
If staying alive was a constant nightmare of desperate foraging and confrontation, then the mining and crafting parts would be forced to take a bit of a backseat and that would spoil things for most players I’d imagine.
Your problem is that you’ve out grown the initial challenge of the game and now that you are in a position of power (being resource and or knowledge rich) you want to be tested further. The fact of the matter is that the challenge as exists is quite challenge enough for new players and is still something to be mindful of for advanced players.
I’d suggest that you go seek your thrills through mods, adventure maps and PvP, rather than trying to foist your ill thought out ideas for difficultly increases on others, who are quite happy with the way things are already.
In any case, changing the bonemeal mechanic as a way of upping difficulty is a pretty lame way of going about it in the first place. There are much more exciting and imaginative ways that could be employed to do that.
Please refer to and cogitate upon my post at 29/01/2013 - 01:31 PM (page 7), as it pretty much describes the way you have conducted yourself in this thread.
Peace out.
^This is a null point. It's not about the amount of clicks. It's completely about time.
Bonemeal is instant. If I had enough bones and 1 seed I could make an entire chest full of wheat in about 5 minutes. You can't get a chest full of wheat in 5 minutes with 1 seed by building a normal farm and waiting for it to grow so they can replant again and again until they are able to make a large harvest. You also mentioned having to automate your farm which takes even more time and more resources.
I would have been done bonemealing hours ago.
So, how does any of this mean that the bonemeal nerf wasn't because of it undermined the food restoration and hunger bar system? None of the things you just mentioned would work without it. Bonemeal makes everything you just said easier.
^ This.
Instant gratification over my dead body! It's not that I use bonemeal all the time it's just that when you need it then you need.... Okay I can't really explain but -snip-. Minecraft surely isn't for the impatient but things like this nerf can be fearful for what the future will hold. You say that blocks should take time to be placed but I call that fricken crazy. Minecraft is a sandbox game for crying out loud. There is survival but it shouldn't be really really hard( there is hardcore for that ). Maybe they should add extra time to everything! Add few more clicks here and make this and that take longer..... I mean seriously? Also crops on their own will grow fine and if YOU are on single player you WILL have lots of food more than YOU can eat. Just because bonemeal is nerfed doesn't mean you can't supply a surplus of food.
This nerf doesn't add difficulty that would make the game fun what so ever. The nerf was intended for what I believe was for dispencers. IF Mojang that old bonemealing was OP they should have changed that a long time ago. There are numerous compromises that have been posted on these forums. They come in four forms:
Either make crafting bonemeal more complicated or give less bonemeal from bones (1:1)
Only apply the nerf to dispersers and return the old bonemeal back to HAND placed bonemeal.
Reduce nerf to 2 cycles of bonemeal for wheat, carrots, potatoes and 3 cycles for melon/pumpkin stems and 2-4 cycles for trees and 1 for mushrooms.
And finally a new one for all you survival cray cray people. LEAVE the nerf to HARDCORE.
Also if I wanted instant gratification I wouldn't be playing near vanilla SMP and I also hate tekkit/FTB.
Where there is an issue with two sides there should be compromise or a solution.
As I've been saying consistently throughout the week, the overabundance of food regardless of Bonemeals existence and use undermines the threat of starvation. Bonemeal simply expedites the farming process a tad.
Just because you can rely on Bonemeal as your source of food, does not mean that you actually have any advantages over the people who do not rely on Bonemeal as their source of food. Food is plenty abundant without factoring in Bonemeal, and only becomes even more common the longer you stay on a map, voiding any advantages you might have and they were already insignificant.
I'm not going to try to change your ways, but, seriously, having some extra food is far from a game-breaking issue.
^ Not this.
If you can think of no good reason to include eating/food other than pure difficulty then you are not thinking.
Bone meal just makes plants grow quicker. It isn't a panacea for the food supply issues of new players (they aren't likely to have much bonemeal anyway) and it is of little relevance to the food supply of advanced players (as I have already outlined in previous posts).
Bonemeal is not primarily utilised in the way you are making out (not by those that have any sense at any rate). Therefore talking about it in terms of survival difficulty is irrelevant. So stop doing so.
Lies. Wheat leads to breeding which leads to enchanting, a fleet of rideable pigs, and massive amounts of wool. Even for players with an endless amount of food wheat can be important to fighting, building, and exploring.
Not one retort has addressed the chain of uses wheat has other than food. So sure, food can be easy to get, but that doesn't stop the need for wheat. All a player needs for their huge ship sails is one tilled soil block, one seed, and bonemeal. All a player needs for enchanting books for emerald trading is one tilled soil block, one seed, a little XP, and bonemeal.
Why not make those processes harder to accomplish?
This argument is still challenge versus "why fix what isn't broken." Which is a poor point of debate.
I watched a DayZ LP a few months ago where the player was kicking an ungodly amount of ass, but eventually died from hunger. It made for some good watching, that's for sure.
Bonemeal doesn't change anything in Vanilla. You can accomplish the breeding of Cows without ever touching Bonemeal, and it is the better alternative because you can go do other things in the meantime, so you're not changing the difficulty in breeding Cows, getting Leather, making Books, making Bookshelves, and enchanting until you actually nerf Wheat.
The end result is the same either way you spin it. You're not going to convince anyone that Bonemeal is OP when Wheat isn't hard to grow regardless, and food is incredibly easy to obtain regardless.
You still have to wait for the food to grow, or breed animals with wheat - which you needs time to grow. You cannot reasonably say that speeding up a process to the extent that you have a constant supply of instant food doesn't decrease difficulty. It defies all logic.
You just mentioned an entire list of things that deplete your heath! Food heals you! You might as well have no hunger bar at all, if you have a constant supply of instant food. You can keep ignoring this point, but its going to get you nowhere. I'm tired of responding to these 1/2 baked arguments. I made this point pages ago.
Increasing difficulty is a perfectly valid reason on its own.
Any other reason you want to add will only contributes to my point. Anything else would still function with the hunger bar and food restoration system, therefore the nerf still increases the difficulty.
Check all that apply
*Having over a thousand bone meal makes it op*
*Breeding costing 1 wheat is OP*
*Newbs not dying from starvation is OP* (Seriously?...But hell, I'll put this as an option)
*It further boosts giant farm productivity slightly*
And bellow is my explanations for each.
*This is because you have 1000 of it. Again, having 1000 diamond has a MUCH more profound effect, maintenance or not. I could easily get several sets of diamond equipment to burn through this way, so maintanance could be disregarded for quiet some time, since I could just rely on the massive number. If is was just 10 though, Eventually they would break, and I wouldn't have another 10 to make (without working). AND, by the time you have this much, farming is often producing at such a rate that the farms normal rate of production DWARFS what you can possibly do by hand. You may say "But dispensers!", though this is detailed here.
http://www.minecraft...emeal-solution/
*This is one of the few things I can understand, but rather than nerfing bone meal, why don't we RAISE the cost of breeding? Say like, a wheat block made with 4 wheat, so breeding is slightly more costly? I wouldn't mind this since again, by the time I get a self sufficient farm, the difference between 1 and 4 wheat isn't much, its only when I'm starting out that I ration it. This way you would still be encouraged to make a full farm, but using it purely to survive (Our whole argument btw) Will still be possible. That and for you (since you and others have ADMITTED never using it) This will actually make a difference, making breeding more of an investment, while also allowing more compact wheat storage! Win win win?
*The least logical argument of the bunch. As I've said before, nobody ever toppled a kingdom armed with a sword made of bread, wearing bread armor, leading in a bread soldier army to kill everyone (Though this would be hilarious). All this allows is the lowest of the low (those who are hungry...and don't tell me there's anyone lower than this, food is THE most necessary thing in game, even WOOD comes second) The ability to feed themselves. This provides no advantage in PVP (Some guy with a stone sword will win, even if he DOESN'T have regeneration) It only enables them to get out of the poverty stage of minecraft which just about everyone HATES starting in. (I've never really enjoyed starving to death, over building a rustic styled mountain shack in the snowy hills ) A majority of players find food when you have nothing is more of a burden than a "neat mechanic". It only becomes so later, when your deep underground and your keeping an eye on how many meat slices you have, since if you run out before hitting the surface, it could spell the end for you. THIS is why I enjoy hunger. Not spawning into something uncertain.
*This one is bunk for the following : Farms produce wheat regardless of player action, and the bigger the farm, the bigger the output. After a certain size, the "ratio" of bone meal profit to existing food income shrinks. a 6 block farm will benefit sure. but a 600?...It won't be very noticeable, and it would be a waste of the players time. Its a waste, cause it will grow more than the player needs anyway, so the player gets no benefit besides a "slightly" bigger "stockpile". A stockpile which only becomes useful under the following conditions:
*Farm gets destroyed somehow, halting wheat production.
*Wheat demand skyrockets to 5 times what they were before (SMP ONLY)
*Some external force keeps the player from reaching the farm for harvest
Besides these 3 scenarios, there is no benefit to having a MASSIVE storage of wheat, or making it bigger, besides saving maybe 10 seconds by not harvesting...and even then its 10 seconds
Redstone, yes food heals you but your missing one HUGE thing about this. Besides newbs (people who don't have jack to begin with) EVERY SINGLE STINKING PERSON FROM ROYALTY, BANDITS, MERCHANTS, NOMADS, ARTISTS, TOWN GUARDS, HUNTERS, ABSOLUTELY ANYONE HAS THIS ABILITY TO HEAL PASSIVELY, AND WRITE OFF HUNGER ANYWAY.
The ONLY people this effects is poor people, anyone else with a settlement and even a small wheat farm will be none the wiser and their storage's of meat / fruit / wheat mean nothing changes for them. "You might as well have no hunger bar at all, if you have a constant supply of instant food". This is EXACTLY what everyone ELSE has. How can you get ANY more instant than removing 20 steaks from a chest? YOU CANNOT. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. And the poor guys still work for that bone meal, so its by no means instant. The only instant gratification here is with giant farms, since one they are up they require almost no work (Besides replanting, occasionally fixing a creeper crater) And they almost always provide more food than 1 person (Or even 2) can manage to eat, even with sprint hopping around all day.
So someone, answer me this : Why Is bone mealing wheat writing off hunger more than a giant farm where all people do is shovel food into their inventory, and don't worry about how much they will eat, since they produce more than they can consume?
What?
I fixed your argument by removing one word, and I agree. The hunger bar is more annoying than anything, and is not a source of difficulty in vanilla. But it does provide a tool for mapmakers to torment the players, so I think that it's fine.
Ignoring what point? That the hunger bar is more annoyance than difficulty? Because that isn't a point. It's an intentional part of the system in vanilla.
But why try hinder the process of making those things more difficult? Without bonemeal those things aren't impossible, but it does make them much easier to accomplish. If you want to make a giant sail for your boat, but don't want to play by the rules, there is creative mode.
This paragraph has no place in this debate. It makes no sense. There are no royalty, bandits, merchants, nomads, artists, town guards, and hunters in vanilla minecraft. Furthermore, no one playing on a difficulty higher than peaceful will heal passively if they are hungry. If there is some way to heal passively (meaning the player heals without doing anything) that I don't know about, I would like to know.
What's more; you keep using my current single player survival game to drive your arguments. Stop it; it is an infirm way to further your point. You make it seem as if I said that by the Bear Blood Dripping From The Beard Of My Ancestors I would never use bonemeal. That is a lie, I only mentioned that in my current world I let my crops grow naturally. I even admit to using bonemeal as means to get emeralds quick. Something that shouldn't have been so easy.
Which is a clear oversight! Now they are fixing that! Hooray!
Ten pages of arguing over the philosophical nuances of the usages and functions of various game aspects, countless perspectives of what the game is "meant" to be... Everyone trying to argue opinion as if it's fact. Pages and pages of people bickering endlessly and not one person has had their mind changed.
Fact is that everyone here can see "obvious" flaws in the other people's opinions. Because EVERY argument here is based on some level of subjectivity.
My opinion? I like BC_Programming's idea to make the bonemeal advance one growth stage but also work as an area-of-effect from where you apply it. Could be used to make some really cool tree-strangulation traps, too.
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I agree with this, for sure!
You are basing your dismisal on the WORDS Used. So let me rephrase it so you might actually get the point.
Besides people on their first couple days, NOBODY gets hungry without outright neglecting it. If you have a wheat farm bigger than 10 blocks, hunger is a non issue. This is what I meant by bandits / royalty and all that. If you have a self sufficient food source (Even a small farm, which damn near anyone whos not a new spawn has) Food is not an issue, as you have more than you need. If you starve, its because you didn't put it into your inventory, or "forgot" to eat, letting your hunger drop to zero despite the fact you have food.
This has been my argument the whole time. If you have a farm, Food isn't something you worry about. You take what you need, eat what you need, and besides when your hunger drops 1/2 down, you don't even think about hunger.
The advantage between someone going for their first diamonds, and someone who has collected the ender egg when it comes to food is almost NOTHING, since neither party will starve.
This is what I mean. Now stop dancing around what I say, its getting old cecil.
I'm not sure if you have difficulty with comprehension or not (a troll maybe – oh noes!), but as previous posts by myself and others have made completely clear, the amassing of a large wheat horde (to be used for whatever purpose) can be easily accomplished without bonemeal, and in fact using bonemeal doesn't offer much of an advantage, if any.
It might save a few minutes on the farm in some situations (which you have to balance against bonemeal collection – I bet you have a mob grinder for that eh?), but the cost in tedious grindy game play to use bonemeal (even with one click growing) for volume farming would far outweigh any advantages (for me at any rate).
The only difference I imagine is that (beside having to source the bonemeal to begin with) you spam a small number of soil blocks, planting, boning, growing and harvesting in an obviously artificial machine like way, whereas folk who have embraced the creation of a more realistic world actually plant fields and wait a little (working on their building projects in the interim).
Do people actually use bonemeal in the way Cecil thinks they do? Is it fun? Does it need to be fun if it’s just a means to an end? Is Cecil wasting his time or is he an agricultural genius? Anyone?
Anyway, if it does go to seven bonemeal clicks per wheat, then your farming method is screwed anyway, so you’d better be arguing against the change if you know what’s good for you.
So what will we have gained after the change? I’ll farm naturally like I always did and get loads of easy wheat, but now, when I want wheat immediately for some localised purpose, I won’t have the luxury of instant growth without a click fest, and you’ll be boned (pardon the pun). Maybe the change is worth it just for that ;-)
It's like doing what GregTech does to IndustrialCraft. It makes creating things more annoying, not more difficult.
And then, there's the whole thing that vanilla Minecraft is not supposed to be hard.
They haven't fixed:
Wheat
Carrots
Potatoes
Pumpkins
Melons
Pigs
Cows
Chickens
Villager Trading
Any source of food that is not listed
Oversight not corrected. Likely because it wasn't an oversight, and you are delusional in your quest for difficulty.
In that case: I disagree with food collection being so easy. It should be harder. Please debate this purely opinion statement with endless pages of repeated examples.
No one's dancing around what you're saying. They have a different opinion than you. It's like the abortion debate, but over something much more stupid and less significant. It's opinion.
The thing that is broken here is your logic circuit. Somehow you believe yourself to be the arbiter of which opinion is correct and incorrect.
"It should work like this because..."
You see, the problem is that everything after "because" is just an example. Just supporting evidence for an opinion. And the people on the other side think their evidence is better than your evidence, where you think the reverse.
What are you looking to get out of this? Does cecilhowe have to agree with your opinion before you will stop? Do you need some validation that your case is stronger? Because you both just keep repeating yourselves. For ten pages.
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So then what advantage in there in the short / mid term to having a gigantic surplus of food?
Also you guys HAVE been pretty dismissive, sometimes ignoring entire paragraphs of my posts.
Also, cecil, he said the hunger was ANNOYING. This does not make it any harder, especially for anyone with a full farm (since they do not need bone meal) It only makes it more ANNOYING for fresh spawns.
I'm bout to give up on this debate, since you guys have ignored nearly every single reason put forward so far. Its like trying to play chess with pigeons.
It's poor design Mojang, so leave it alone and fiddle with something more worthwhile like ocean biome content or something.
Cheers.
Sorry, what did you say? Apologies... Ear infection.
Some people like this change. You seem to insist it's because they're already established and aren't just starting a new world. Do you mean to say that you believe none of us will start a new world from now on? Are you still on the first 5 days on your world? Do you think we only like this change because we want to make it harder for newbies? Do you think we're just fanboys who would blindly love any update from steam-power to mining lasers?
You missed my point.
Entirely.
We seem to "ignore" parts of your post because they CAN'T BE ARGUED. They are OPINION. You can't DEBATE AN OPINION. Now feel free to "give up on this debate". The pigeons won't mind. (How rude.)
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