1) How did you extrapolate that, out of his second point? The motivation for the poster's actions are clearly spelled out as: "Things still have a chance to revert if they get too much negative feedback from the community." Imbedded into that sentence is a strong belief, that Mojang DO listen to the community. If it wasn't, then what would be the point of gathering "negative feedback from the community"?
Excellent strawman you built and attacked there, sir! It is always easier to defeat the argument you want to defeat, rather than the argument that is actually put forth. The drawback is, you refuted nothing, and presented nothing worthwhile reading.
2) As has already been explained in this thread, this is at best 6 months away, if not 9. There is nothing soon about that. The MODapi has been promised for much longer than that without delivery, so atm, there isn't really a great track record for this "advantage".
3) Yes, on the surface of things, chopping the platforum in half should equal double the bug squashing. However, this not likely to be the case. Much of bug-fixing is getting proper feedback on how the bug is manifesting itself. Then pieces of code have to be analyzed to find the culprit in the code. A solution then has to be devised and tested internally (pre-snapshot testing). Once these phases have been accomplished, then the solution should be transfered from MP to SP or vice versa. So up until this point, the timeframe from a bug being introduced, to the actual implementation of the fix, time will only be saved in the very last phase. All the previous phases will take the same amount of time, regardless of SP being run on an MP platform or not.
So the actual efficiency boost on the bug-fixing is likely to be way below the percieved x2. It is more likely, that it will bring something like 15-25% more bug-fixes. On top of that, you will have to subtract all the time that was spent on making the merge, and the killing off of the bugs that were introduced in that process. If just 4 months have been spent coding the merge and 2 months are spent bug-fixing it, then we are starting half a year into the hole, which has to be recouped with an increase in efficiency of 15-25%... to fix the bugs from MP that was forced into SP. That is when SP hits break even, meaning no advantage has yet to be gained.
Not a great tradeoff, considering that SP worked great as is!
4) That is a retarded line of argument.
So you cannot be dissatisfied with your own government's actions if you do not have more political experience than them? You cannot be dissatisfied with the service you get at a restaurent if you are not a trained waiter? You can't think that the design of you car is sub-par unless you are an engineer? You cannot think that players on a soccer team make stupid decisions, unless you are a great sportsman yourself? You cannot say that a Hollywood movie was bad and had a poor script, unless you have produced one yourself?
If this is to stand, then most people can't have an opinion about anything, and the only people that are allowed to voice their opinions are trained experts... That would be a horrible and oppressive society to live in.
5) You can't be serious!?! What kind of Tropico dictatorship sh!thole country is it that you live in? Everybody has the right to an opinion and to voice that opinon. That is the foundation of the civilized world! As Voltaire put it: "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it!"
As long as you are willing to fund your own means of expression, and are willing be held accountable for what you say, nobody has the right to disqualify you from expressing your opinion
1) Do I need to argue against someone with every post I make? I also don't think that there is ANY chance of this being reversed but that is just my opinion (even if it is wrong)
2) 6-9 months is actually fairly soon, considering how long minecraft has been in the making.
3) I quote:
That is because you fail to see all the benefits that will come from having things this why.
4) There is a difference between expressing an opinion, and complaining about something you couldn't do better.
5) But why? Why Should I have a right to an opinion? What have I done to deserve an opinion? Answer: I shouldn't, Why? Because I have done nothing that would merit me getting to express my opinion, I live in the country that gives me the gift of being able to express my opinion, they call it a right, but it really is a gift, and there are a lot of people who don't have that gift (or right, as you call it)
Yes, on the surface of things, chopping the platforum in half should equal double the bug squashing. However, this not likely to be the case. Much of bug-fixing is getting proper feedback on how the bug is manifesting itself. Then pieces of code have to be analyzed to find the culprit in the code. A solution then has to be devised and tested internally (pre-snapshot testing). Once these phases have been accomplished, then the solution should be transfered from MP to SP or vice versa. So up until this point, the timeframe from a bug being introduced, to the actual implementation of the fix, time will only be saved in the very last phase. All the previous phases will take the same amount of time, regardless of SP being run on an MP platform or not.
So the actual efficiency boost on the bug-fixing is likely to be way below the percieved x2. It is more likely, that it will bring something like 15-25% more bug-fixes. On top of that, you will have to subtract all the time that was spent on making the merge, and the killing off of the bugs that were introduced in that process. If just 4 months have been spent coding the merge and 2 months are spent bug-fixing it, then we are starting half a year into the hole, which has to be recouped with an increase in efficiency of 15-25%... to fix the bugs from MP that was forced into SP. That is when SP hits break even, meaning no advantage has yet to be gained.
Being generous, that is about 9 months into the future for break even for SP.
Not a great tradeoff, considering that SP worked great as is!
Not completely true. Before ssp and smp had entirely different coding, as in you had to find each bug seperately and fix then seperately. There was very little common ground as far as bug fixing went or implementing features went. Everything took almost twice as long. And no, the amount of time this update took has absolutely no relevance to 1.4. Has any update ever hinted at when the next is coming out? Didn't think so.
So with the merge lets say they are able to work 50% faster now without having to re-implement everything twice.
Now lets take into account that Jeb had previously worked mostly on ssp and dinnerbone and the bukkit team worked mostly on smp.
Now the entire team is working on one codebase.
See why things will move along much faster now?
One last thing. Mojang is notorious for taking vacations (im looking at you jeb) and having a good time in general. On the job or not.
So really all this is pointless. All we can do is let them do their thing and give feedback when appropriate.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't play vanilla? You don't know **** about minecraft.
We are all free to express our opinions, but that doesn't mean we can demand that everyone will listen or share our point of view.
I'm fairly certain that Mojang is listening and that they know there are players that are against this change. The problem is that there is probably a larger group of players that welcomes this change and share their opinion that the benefits of this change outweighs the potential problems that might arise.
A lot of things can happen in a months and I believe a lot of the players that are now against will change their mind. It might even already be the case considering the age of this thread. A lot of things has happened in a month and some of the issues we started with have been substantically reduced.
1) So, when you make a bullet point list with 3 entries, that mirrors the 3 entries in the post you quote, then you ARE arguing against something very specific. Don't be a ***** and try to twist the obvious truth, just because you got caught with your hands in the cookie jar!
2) So you won't mind, if a future fix of SP sets MP back 6-9 months, right? I am glad we are clear on that! I'll keep it in mind, and be sure to remind you, if such a situation should arise in the future.
3) Finally something we do agree on! I don't see ALL the advantages... I don't see them, because they are not HERE. What is here, is the PROMISE of advantages... we are still awaiting delivery!
4) Again you worm your way out. I cited apt analogies. You state that they are unfitting, but in no way show them to be so. You just assert it as it was the obvious truth. Hence your answer is a non-sequitur. It sounds compelling at first, but on closer inspection, there is no content.
5) The entire point of the forums is to invite discussion.
6) Unless the only thing that is allowed is being a sycophant, then critical posts are decidedly welcome, perhaps even encouraged. After all, what is the point of Mojang listening, if they only want yes-men on the forums. The entire section "GET SATISFACTION" revovles around discontent being organized and expressed in a timely and efficient manner. You live in fanboy lala-land.
7) No one needs to make themselves deserving of having and expressing opinion.
8)And btw, rights are not gifts. Learn some history and see that rights have never been given as gifts. They are fought for and earned! That you never had to earn them, and could sit on your ass doing nothing, profitting from such rights, doesn't change how the came into being.
1) But I still don't need to be arguing against something that I quote, regardless, my point is more valid then you will be willing to believe.
2) No, I would not mind (very much) if they stopped developing Minecraft all together at this point, as the currant version is great
3) This is obviously wrong, as there are plenty of advantages that have been stated by others
4) It is a big difference between complaining about something you don't like, and simply telling Mojang that there are some issues. You all don't want Mojang to fix the problems with the merge, you just want them to do what you want (reverse 2-3 months of work)
5) No, that is not the "entire point" it has many other uses.
6) see 4
7) Oh? But why? Are we just born with that right? Why don't you go and tell that to the people who don't have the "rights" that you have
8) Rights are gifts, think about it, people worked (fought and died) to get something, then you got it, How did that happen? Maybe... They... Gave it to you?
OMG! So many walls of text. Fact is some people have problems and others do not. Any update, for any game, made by any developer, for any consumer has a chance of causing some problems. I for one have had 0 game-breaking problems and enjoy single player more than ever.
If you are having problems you think are serious it is perfectly fine to show concern, but, from what I have read, not one time can a person, after being critiqued on their idea, show any common sense in their argument. The people who are for the update bash people for expressing concern (albeit in a bad way sometimes). People against the update however are ridiculous. Yes, I see your concern. Yes, I know the problems are not a myth. But most replies are centered towards the trite and true method of "you will accept my complaint and I will not back down till you agree the game is ruined because I think it is."
Take this how you will, but it is 100% honest.
Edit: A lot of the "update" group also use this tyrant method... Just thought I would balance out my opinion a bit
WHy can people not comprehend that they aren't the only ones with freedom of speech?
If someone doesn't like your opinion, they are just as allowed to say so as you are to state your opinion. Suck it up and quit throwing fits when people don't agree with you. You all sound like children.
You are just pulling stuff out of your ****. You make no effort to actually show what you say is true. You just state it as fact again and again, like that is going to make it any more real.
1) But I still don't need to be arguing against something that I quote, regardless, my point is more valid then you will be willing to believe.
2) No, I would not mind (very much) if they stopped developing Minecraft all together at this point, as the currant version is great
3) This is obviously wrong, as there are plenty of advantages that have been stated by others
4) It is a big difference between complaining about something you don't like, and simply telling Mojang that there are some issues. You all don't want Mojang to fix the problems with the merge, you just want them to do what you want (reverse 2-3 months of work)
5) No, that is not the "entire point" it has many other uses.
6) see 4
7) Oh? But why? Are we just born with that right? Why don't you go and tell that to the people who don't have the "rights" that you have
8) Rights are gifts, think about it, people worked (fought and died) to get something, then you got it, How did that happen? Maybe... They... Gave it to you?
1) Fact (I don't have to argue, that is a known fact), Fact (You will not believe that what I say is valid, otherwise you would be wrong (not saying that it is a fact that the merge is a good idea, that is just opinion))
2) Fact (This is my opinion, so it is my opinion)
3) Fact (There are several advantages, such as: Mods being both SSP and SMP without extra work)
4) Fact (I am stating that the meaning of two different phrases is different, because they are) Fact (It is obvious that you don't what Mojang to fix the problem(s), you just want them to go back to the way it was)
5) Fact (The forum is used for many things, not just for discussion on new snapshots (or updates) such as: a place to get Mods, and a place to share creations)
6) Fact (Just sending you back to a previous fact)
7) This is a question, so it is not a fact.
8) Fact (Because the gift of freedom of speech was not something you were born with, it was something given to you by the government of the country you live in, and it is therefor a gift (The fact is: you deserve nothing (actually, this is not entirely true, you actually deserve to get something worse then nothing (I do as well, so this is not an insult)), and you have a right to nothing (unless someone gave you that right), however, you are given much more then you deserve) Note: you may not agree with this, but it is still right)
1) Opinion is not fact. And that is a fact. Unsubstantiated facts are not facts. That is a fact. Irrelevant facts are irrelevant. That is a fact too.
2) Until you learn to abide by these facts, then discussion with you is pointless. And that is the final fact.
1) I agree with all of this (except the fact that unsubstantiated facts are still facts, they are just unsubstantiated so therefor can't be taken seriously), the problem is; You haven't proved any of these thing (which I have declared fact) to be Unsubstantiated or Irrelevant, and you said that that is what I was doing
2) This is not true, there are plenty of people who have made effective arguments without knowing any of that
1) Do I need to argue against someone with every post I make? I also don't think that there is ANY chance of this being reversed but that is just my opinion (even if it is wrong)
2) 6-9 months is actually fairly soon, considering how long minecraft has been in the making.
3) I quote:
4) There is a difference between expressing an opinion, and complaining about something you couldn't do better.
5) But why? Why Should I have a right to an opinion? What have I done to deserve an opinion? Answer: I shouldn't, Why? Because I have done nothing that would merit me getting to express my opinion, I live in the country that gives me the gift of being able to express my opinion, they call it a right, but it really is a gift, and there are a lot of people who don't have that gift (or right, as you call it)
Not completely true. Before ssp and smp had entirely different coding, as in you had to find each bug seperately and fix then seperately. There was very little common ground as far as bug fixing went or implementing features went. Everything took almost twice as long. And no, the amount of time this update took has absolutely no relevance to 1.4. Has any update ever hinted at when the next is coming out? Didn't think so.
So with the merge lets say they are able to work 50% faster now without having to re-implement everything twice.
Now lets take into account that Jeb had previously worked mostly on ssp and dinnerbone and the bukkit team worked mostly on smp.
Now the entire team is working on one codebase.
See why things will move along much faster now?
One last thing. Mojang is notorious for taking vacations (im looking at you jeb) and having a good time in general. On the job or not.
So really all this is pointless. All we can do is let them do their thing and give feedback when appropriate.
I'm fairly certain that Mojang is listening and that they know there are players that are against this change. The problem is that there is probably a larger group of players that welcomes this change and share their opinion that the benefits of this change outweighs the potential problems that might arise.
A lot of things can happen in a months and I believe a lot of the players that are now against will change their mind. It might even already be the case considering the age of this thread. A lot of things has happened in a month and some of the issues we started with have been substantically reduced.
thats as truthful as a cake
/thread
I see what you did there. Rep for the reference xD
1) But I still don't need to be arguing against something that I quote, regardless, my point is more valid then you will be willing to believe.
2) No, I would not mind (very much) if they stopped developing Minecraft all together at this point, as the currant version is great
3) This is obviously wrong, as there are plenty of advantages that have been stated by others
4) It is a big difference between complaining about something you don't like, and simply telling Mojang that there are some issues. You all don't want Mojang to fix the problems with the merge, you just want them to do what you want (reverse 2-3 months of work)
5) No, that is not the "entire point" it has many other uses.
6) see 4
7) Oh? But why? Are we just born with that right? Why don't you go and tell that to the people who don't have the "rights" that you have
8) Rights are gifts, think about it, people worked (fought and died) to get something, then you got it, How did that happen? Maybe... They... Gave it to you?
If you are having problems you think are serious it is perfectly fine to show concern, but, from what I have read, not one time can a person, after being critiqued on their idea, show any common sense in their argument. The people who are for the update bash people for expressing concern (albeit in a bad way sometimes). People against the update however are ridiculous. Yes, I see your concern. Yes, I know the problems are not a myth. But most replies are centered towards the trite and true method of "you will accept my complaint and I will not back down till you agree the game is ruined because I think it is."
Take this how you will, but it is 100% honest.
Edit: A lot of the "update" group also use this tyrant method... Just thought I would balance out my opinion a bit
If someone doesn't like your opinion, they are just as allowed to say so as you are to state your opinion. Suck it up and quit throwing fits when people don't agree with you. You all sound like children.
Ok then, how about this:
1) Fact (I don't have to argue, that is a known fact), Fact (You will not believe that what I say is valid, otherwise you would be wrong (not saying that it is a fact that the merge is a good idea, that is just opinion))
2) Fact (This is my opinion, so it is my opinion)
3) Fact (There are several advantages, such as: Mods being both SSP and SMP without extra work)
4) Fact (I am stating that the meaning of two different phrases is different, because they are) Fact (It is obvious that you don't what Mojang to fix the problem(s), you just want them to go back to the way it was)
5) Fact (The forum is used for many things, not just for discussion on new snapshots (or updates) such as: a place to get Mods, and a place to share creations)
6) Fact (Just sending you back to a previous fact)
7) This is a question, so it is not a fact.
8) Fact (Because the gift of freedom of speech was not something you were born with, it was something given to you by the government of the country you live in, and it is therefor a gift (The fact is: you deserve nothing (actually, this is not entirely true, you actually deserve to get something worse then nothing (I do as well, so this is not an insult)), and you have a right to nothing (unless someone gave you that right), however, you are given much more then you deserve) Note: you may not agree with this, but it is still right)
1) I agree with all of this (except the fact that unsubstantiated facts are still facts, they are just unsubstantiated so therefor can't be taken seriously), the problem is; You haven't proved any of these thing (which I have declared fact) to be Unsubstantiated or Irrelevant, and you said that that is what I was doing
2) This is not true, there are plenty of people who have made effective arguments without knowing any of that