The nether is supposed to be hard. Whether it is hard or not does not matter in this case. Water would make the nether easier, which is not good, considering how easy it is already.
And even then, the nether is still dangerous even to the well-armed and skilled player. Pillaring up to glowstone or across large lava lakes while a ghast is firing upon you is deadly.
This would also make it ridiculously easy to farm blazes, which give the best xp in the game. Also, on your "end game blaze farm" point, I never made a blaze farm on my single player world. It costs a LOT of iron, especially when working with double blaze spawners.
There comes a time when nothing in the game is hard. Whether it ever was or should be does not matter in this case. The eventual allowance of water won't make it much easier, but it will make it more convenient (and for some, more fun), which is good, considering how boring the nether is currently.
A "well-armed and skilled" player isn't going to get killed by falling into lava, ghasts or no. There are many glowstone reserves over land, and those who wish to cross lava lakes can just swim through them.
You're also mistaken in thinking water will help you earn xp from blazes, as you must kill them yourself if you wish to acquire any. I'm also unsure why one would want to use any amount of iron to farm them, unless you wanted to farm rods AFK (though unless you want to build a fort at the bottom of a lava lake, a rod farm is still pretty pointless).
It's a seasonable gameplay design choice. Water doesn't belong in the Nether because it's hot, hellish, and meant to be hostile and unkind to the player. I'm happy Jeb removed the possibility of water being in the realm.
Exactly, its a design choice. Jeb, as lead developer, has decided that Vanilla Minecraft should not allow water in the Nether. That is the reason water is not allowed in the nether, whether we want it or not.
Maybe that decision will be reverse in the future, maybe it won't.
There comes a time when nothing in the game is hard. Whether it ever was or should be does not matter in this case. The eventual allowance of water won't make it much easier, but it will make it more convenient (and for some, more fun), which is good, considering how boring the nether is currently.
When something in a game should be hard, but isn't, it should not serve as an excuse to make said thing easier. The allowance of water will make the nether much easier, which I will get into more detail on the next point. How boring the nether is is simply opinion. Jeb has stated that he will add to the nether, anyways. Water wouldn't even make the nether more convenient.
A "well-armed and skilled" player isn't going to get killed by falling into lava, ghasts or no. There are many glowstone reserves over land, and those who wish to cross lava lakes can just swim through them.
There are some glowstone reserves on land. If you need more glowstone then the average person needs, you're going to have to pillar up to some hard-to-get glowstone sooner or later, in which case ghasts are deadly. I made a small mistake in assuming the well skilled and armed player did not have fire resistance potions. I never really carry them around in the nether. Whether or not you would waste so many fire resistance potions to swim across lava lakes is entirely up to you, but I wouldn't do it.
You're also mistaken in thinking water will help you earn xp from blazes, as you must kill them yourself if you wish to acquire any. I'm also unsure why one would want to use any amount of iron to farm them, unless you wanted to farm rods AFK (though unless you want to build a fort at the bottom of a lava lake, a rod farm is still pretty pointless).
I don't think you understand what I'm saying here. Blaze XP farms require timed piston suffocation. Blaze xp farms also require the blazes to move to a specific point. Pistons extend and suffocate the blazes to half a heart. You can then punch the blazes for double the xp then any normal minecraft mob. Pistons are needed for both. A LOT of pistons are needed for both. Water would make both steps ridiculously easy.
There should be no way to obtain water in Nether - it's gimmick. IMO Nether should always come with this "lava" feel of it and what is IMO important in Minecraft - specific mood that accompanies the game. For me Ghasts, lava everywhere and lack of water makes Nether what it is. But as I said it's just my view. ;]
Would any of that really change if some water were allowed in the Nether for people who want it?
When something in a game should be hard, but isn't, it should not serve as an excuse to make said thing easier. The allowance of water will make the nether much easier, which I will get into more detail on the next point. How boring the nether is is simply opinion. Jeb has stated that he will add to the nether, anyways. Water wouldn't even make the nether more convenient.
The allowance of fire resistance potions made the Nether much easier. There is literally nothing to fear in the Nether once a player gets established so why should we stop the established player from doing what he wants with the Nether?
There are some glowstone reserves on land. If you need more glowstone then the average person needs, you're going to have to pillar up to some hard-to-get glowstone sooner or later, in which case ghasts are deadly. I made a small mistake in assuming the well skilled and armed player did not have fire resistance potions. I never really carry them around in the nether. Whether or not you would waste so many fire resistance potions to swim across lava lakes is entirely up to you, but I wouldn't do it.
I never had a problem pillaring up to Glowstone without a fire resist potion. Just look for Ghasts and shoot them down. Buggers aren't scary, just annoying.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying here. Blaze XP farms require timed piston suffocation. Blaze xp farms also require the blazes to move to a specific point. Pistons extend and suffocate the blazes to half a heart. You can then punch the blazes for double the xp then any normal minecraft mob. Pistons are needed for both. A LOT of pistons are needed for both. Water would make both steps ridiculously easy.
Water would kill the blazes if left untimed so yeah. And I'm not talking about drowning. They take damage from contact.
Also, water in the Nether does not affect farms that were built before the player obtained whatever is necessary to put water in the Nether.
People are saying that water in the Nether should be accepted because by the time you get whatever you need to get water into the Nether, it is no longer a danger. But if it is no longer a danger, why would you want water in there anyway? The only real reason to have it in is to stop you from dying horribly in lava.
Aesthetics, farms, Zombie Pigman farms, maybe Magma cube farms and quicker Obsidian (instead of fill buckets, go through portal, place buckets, pour water, it could potentially be fill buckets, pour buckets, place water).
Fire resistance potions also remove any threat of 'dying horribly in lava' so yeah.
Being capable of somehow (and I'd like to remind you that this does not have to mean Silk Touched Ice or a Water Bucket) placing water in the Nether really won't undo much that hasn't already been undone with fire resist potions.
After all - whilst you could start building farms and such there, what is the point if you have an over-world that supplies your every need? Why do you need cobblestone when you can have stacks of the stuff in your inventory to use and still space to spare? Trees are aplenty over-ground, why do you need yet more in an area that, frankly, doesn't exactly look very hospitable to plant life.
Trees already grow just fine if you place the dirt so...
I mean, since when have trees ever needed water?
Arguments can be made both for and against water in the Nether, and whilst I agree that there should be more exploring equipment (maybe something that can stop you being on fire for example) and definitely more content in the Nether itself, water should not be in the Nether. It is supposed to be different. If you start removing the differences, what do you end up with? An over-world with a reddish tint and ugly blocks, and a few mobs that are, with water, very easy to deal with indeed.
I'm not asking for water to be naturally generated in the Nether so the differences still exist. Nether is already very easy to deal with without water and I guarantee that adding water will not make it easier.
Now, what I am asking for the ability for the player to do what he pleases with the Nether once he puts in enough time and effort. Can you really disagree with that?
The allowance of fire resistance potions made the Nether much easier. There is literally nothing to fear in the Nether once a player gets established so why should we stop the established player from doing what he wants with the Nether?
The allowance of fire resistance potions was balanced out by the fact that you need blaze rods to make them. To the player without any potions, finding and getting blaze rods can be deadly. In addition, fire resistance potions fit the environment. Let me ask you this: If you think water is so useless in the nether, what is the point in having it? Don't give me that "It doesn't need a point" crap. It has more negative features then positive ones.
I never had a problem pillaring up to Glowstone without a fire resist potion. Just look for Ghasts and shoot them down. Buggers aren't scary, just annoying.
So you're pillaring up to get glowstone. Suddenly, a ghast spawns! You attempt to shoot it down, but the ghast already got a shot at you and knocked you off your pillar. You're now dead. Has this never happened to you? Because this has happened to me more then I can count.
Water would kill the blazes if left untimed so yeah. And I'm not talking about drowning. They take damage from contact.
I know. You could easily make a fully functioning trap that brought blazes to a point while damaging them to one heart without 50 pistons. That's the point. It makes the blazes too easy to farm.
Also, water in the Nether does not affect farms that were built before the player obtained whatever is necessary to put water in the Nether.
So?
I'm not asking for water to be naturally generated in the Nether so the differences still exist. Nether is already very easy to deal with without water and I guarantee that adding water will not make it easier.
Now, what I am asking for the ability for the player to do what he pleases with the Nether once he puts in enough time and effort. Can you really disagree with that?
I can. I have already explained why water can make the nether easier. The player can already do what he pleases in the nether with enough time and effort. Any player could simply mod the game. There is, however, no good reason why water should be allowed in the nether in any form.
I think your argument comes down to this: Once the player is well equipped and well skilled, there should be nothing he isn't able to do. By your logic, you should be able to get creative mode in survival, no matter how hard it might be. But that wouldn't work, would it? That's because creative doesn't fit in a survival gametype. I know that seems like an exaggerated comparison, but it works in this case.
The allowance of fire resistance potions was balanced out by the fact that you need blaze rods to make them. To the player without any potions, finding and getting blaze rods can be deadly. In addition, fire resistance potions fit the environment. Let me ask you this: If you think water is so useless in the nether, what is the point in having it? Don't give me that "It doesn't need a point" crap. It has more negative features then positive ones.
Because
"Aesthetics, farms, Zombie Pigman farms, maybe Magma cube farms and quicker Obsidian"
Also, it's not that difficult to get four blaze rods with a little corner abuse.
So you're pillaring up to get glowstone. Suddenly, a ghast spawns! You attempt to shoot it down, but the ghast already got a shot at you and knocked you off your pillar. You're now dead. Has this never happened to you? Because this has happened to me more then I can count.
I tend to make cobblestone floors if Ghasts spawn that fast.
Otherwise, I'm at the glowstone before they can even shoot at me.
I know. You could easily make a fully functioning trap that brought blazes to a point while damaging them to one heart without 50 pistons. That's the point. It makes the blazes too easy to farm.
You'd still need the Pistons required to push them down to the collection area so it's not like you'll be getting off cost free. The only difference is the damaging mechanism but is that really that important?
So?
You're assuming that it would be easy to put water in the Nether.
I'm not.
That's the "So."
I can. I have already explained why water can make the nether easier. The player can already do what he pleases in the nether with enough time and effort. Any player could simply mod the game. There is, however, no good reason why water should be allowed in the nether in any form.
"Aesthetics, farms, Zombie Pigman farms, maybe Magma cube farms and quicker Obsidian"
And I want it in an unmodded client for SSP and SMP, otherwise, I'd have just looked for a mod to allow it.
And you haven't explained why when the Nether is already easy with the addition of Fire Resist Potions. Water that is hard to get would not make the Nether easier.
I think your argument comes down to this: Once the player is well equipped and well skilled, there should be nothing he isn't able to do. By your logic, you should be able to get creative mode in survival, no matter how hard it might be. But that wouldn't work, would it? That's because creative doesn't fit in a survival gametype. I know that seems like an exaggerated comparison, but it works in this case.
The only differences between survival and creative once the player is established is the inability to fly and a health bar.
Everyone should realize that It wouldn't change anything having ice being made water in the nether. Simply because It requires a large enchantment to make, I think that more than balances the difficulty. And now with singleplayer commands and such, you can just /give 08 01 00
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Back in my day, sheep dropped brown mushrooms, and by golly we... Hated it, pretty much.
"Aesthetics, farms, Zombie Pigman farms, maybe Magma cube farms and quicker Obsidian"
Alright, what? A large point of me saying water would make the nether too easy is because it would make the entire area too easy to farm. Aesthetics can be dealt with in the overworld.
And this is where our opinion differs. I think of survival as survival. You think of survival as creative with health.
I'm going to assume my opinion is the majority. I could be completely wrong here. But survival is called survival, not creative with a health bar.
Because
"Aesthetics, farms, Zombie Pigman farms, maybe Magma cube farms and quicker Obsidian"
Also, it's not that difficult to get four blaze rods with a little corner abuse.
You can make all those farms right now. Also, why would you need obisidian after you've already made a portal? Enchantment tables only take a few blocks so that is not a valid argument. You are looking to reduce the difficulty of the nether something that you claim is already too easy.
You're assuming that it would be easy to put water in the Nether.
I'm not.
That's the "So."
Put down two water sources one block apart and boom you have an infinite water source between them. How is that not easy?
The bottom line is that water makes the nether too easy by reducing chances for death via lava and could be abused to prevent ghasts from knocking you off of pillars and killing you through fall damage (via waterbreak). It makes sense that water in a "hell" dimension would evaporate instantly and no longer exist.
If you really want to have water in your nether you could make better use of your time by going and placing ice there now (assuming you have some) and melting it.
Fire resistance potions and the Shift key broke any kind of fear of lava or fire I had in the Nether.
Now it's just point n shoot at Ghasts. Not hard.
That shift key works wonders when a Ghast hits you.
Fire resistance potions are expensive, but I suppose silk touch is. Maybe they don't want you to be able to mine obsidian in the Nether. Or they're attempting to be 'realistic', since water would immediately evaporate at that temperature. Of course, Steve would melt, and technically die from poisonous gases before getting even close enough to the Nether. Yap... 'realistic'.
The nether is supposed to be hard. Whether it is hard or not does not matter in this case. Water would make the nether easier, which is not good, considering how easy it is already.
And even then, the nether is still dangerous even to the well-armed and skilled player. Pillaring up to glowstone or across large lava lakes while a ghast is firing upon you is deadly.
This would also make it ridiculously easy to farm blazes, which give the best xp in the game. Also, on your "end game blaze farm" point, I never made a blaze farm on my single player world. It costs a LOT of iron, especially when working with double blaze spawners.
So no.
There comes a time when nothing in the game is hard. Whether it ever was or should be does not matter in this case. The eventual allowance of water won't make it much easier, but it will make it more convenient (and for some, more fun), which is good, considering how boring the nether is currently.
A "well-armed and skilled" player isn't going to get killed by falling into lava, ghasts or no. There are many glowstone reserves over land, and those who wish to cross lava lakes can just swim through them.
You're also mistaken in thinking water will help you earn xp from blazes, as you must kill them yourself if you wish to acquire any. I'm also unsure why one would want to use any amount of iron to farm them, unless you wanted to farm rods AFK (though unless you want to build a fort at the bottom of a lava lake, a rod farm is still pretty pointless).
So yes.
Exactly, its a design choice. Jeb, as lead developer, has decided that Vanilla Minecraft should not allow water in the Nether. That is the reason water is not allowed in the nether, whether we want it or not.
Maybe that decision will be reverse in the future, maybe it won't.
Also, the Iron refers to the use of Pistons to make a Blaze exp farm, but I just meant a simple rod/exp farm which could use very few Pistons.
And I think water hurts Blazes so... I don't see water helping out much in Blaze farms.
I don't find not having water blocks in the nether inconvenient, so I don't really care.
Why should this be if the Nether was truly meant to be inhospitible?
Should the Nether be hot enough to instantly evaporate Water when it isn't hot enough to burn trees unless they are grown in very specific areas?
How does that even make sense when Water is not flammable but Wood and Leaves are extremely so?
Nether defies logic. If anything, water should be allowed because of this logic hole.
Those who don't can ignore the method.
Food. It's been mentioned several times already in this thread.
KEKDOT Highways & Freeways in Minecraft - Stack Interchange
Now it's just point n shoot at Ghasts. Not hard.
You just keep going on about your imaginary balance issues and keep denying that the only issue you have with it is that you just don't want it.
Would any of that really change if some water were allowed in the Nether for people who want it?
The allowance of fire resistance potions made the Nether much easier. There is literally nothing to fear in the Nether once a player gets established so why should we stop the established player from doing what he wants with the Nether?
I never had a problem pillaring up to Glowstone without a fire resist potion. Just look for Ghasts and shoot them down. Buggers aren't scary, just annoying.
Water would kill the blazes if left untimed so yeah. And I'm not talking about drowning. They take damage from contact.
Also, water in the Nether does not affect farms that were built before the player obtained whatever is necessary to put water in the Nether.
Sorry for your confusion.
Aesthetics, farms, Zombie Pigman farms, maybe Magma cube farms and quicker Obsidian (instead of fill buckets, go through portal, place buckets, pour water, it could potentially be fill buckets, pour buckets, place water).
Fire resistance potions also remove any threat of 'dying horribly in lava' so yeah.
Being capable of somehow (and I'd like to remind you that this does not have to mean Silk Touched Ice or a Water Bucket) placing water in the Nether really won't undo much that hasn't already been undone with fire resist potions.
Trees already grow just fine if you place the dirt so...
I mean, since when have trees ever needed water?
I'm not asking for water to be naturally generated in the Nether so the differences still exist. Nether is already very easy to deal with without water and I guarantee that adding water will not make it easier.
Now, what I am asking for the ability for the player to do what he pleases with the Nether once he puts in enough time and effort. Can you really disagree with that?
Because
"Aesthetics, farms, Zombie Pigman farms, maybe Magma cube farms and quicker Obsidian"
Also, it's not that difficult to get four blaze rods with a little corner abuse.
I tend to make cobblestone floors if Ghasts spawn that fast.
Otherwise, I'm at the glowstone before they can even shoot at me.
You'd still need the Pistons required to push them down to the collection area so it's not like you'll be getting off cost free. The only difference is the damaging mechanism but is that really that important?
You're assuming that it would be easy to put water in the Nether.
I'm not.
That's the "So."
"Aesthetics, farms, Zombie Pigman farms, maybe Magma cube farms and quicker Obsidian"
And I want it in an unmodded client for SSP and SMP, otherwise, I'd have just looked for a mod to allow it.
And you haven't explained why when the Nether is already easy with the addition of Fire Resist Potions. Water that is hard to get would not make the Nether easier.
The only differences between survival and creative once the player is established is the inability to fly and a health bar.
Survival is Creative with minor changes.
Back in my day, sheep dropped brown mushrooms, and by golly we... Hated it, pretty much.
Alright, what? A large point of me saying water would make the nether too easy is because it would make the entire area too easy to farm. Aesthetics can be dealt with in the overworld.
And this is where our opinion differs. I think of survival as survival. You think of survival as creative with health.
I'm going to assume my opinion is the majority. I could be completely wrong here. But survival is called survival, not creative with a health bar.
You can make all those farms right now. Also, why would you need obisidian after you've already made a portal? Enchantment tables only take a few blocks so that is not a valid argument. You are looking to reduce the difficulty of the nether something that you claim is already too easy.
Put down two water sources one block apart and boom you have an infinite water source between them. How is that not easy?
The bottom line is that water makes the nether too easy by reducing chances for death via lava and could be abused to prevent ghasts from knocking you off of pillars and killing you through fall damage (via waterbreak). It makes sense that water in a "hell" dimension would evaporate instantly and no longer exist.
If you really want to have water in your nether you could make better use of your time by going and placing ice there now (assuming you have some) and melting it.
That shift key works wonders when a Ghast hits you.
Fire resistance potions are expensive, but I suppose silk touch is. Maybe they don't want you to be able to mine obsidian in the Nether. Or they're attempting to be 'realistic', since water would immediately evaporate at that temperature. Of course, Steve would melt, and technically die from poisonous gases before getting even close enough to the Nether. Yap... 'realistic'.
KEKDOT Highways & Freeways in Minecraft - Stack Interchange