They'll also be raising the block ID limit in 1.13. And I can guarantee you nobody's complaining about that one. Or would want Mojang to scrap it.
That's not really new though; ever since 1.2 the game has mostly been able to handle 4096 block IDs except for a small issue with how ItemStacks were handled, limiting them to 256 (the same numerical ID is used to represent both blocks and items) - which I thought was removed in 1.8 when they removed numerical item IDs (though since older worlds can be read they must have retained it in some manner), which mods, including Forge itself, also fixed (ever wondered how big modpacks add hundreds of new blocks, many with IDs in the 1000+ range?). It is actually surprisingly easy to fix this and Mojang could have done so years ago (the easiest method, which I've tried before, shifts item IDs up so they start at 4096 instead of 256, breaking compatibility with older versions but you can just convert the IDs and add a version tag to chunks the first time they are loaded).
Also, the way they are planning to make every variant of block its own block ID means that many of those 4096 IDs are going to be used up anyway (even 256 IDs with 16 data values each is 4096 separate states), and others will change, so existing tools and mapping utilities will break, and coding will become more complicated (for example, currently ores and many other world decoration features replace any type of stone by only checking for the block ID; in 1.13 they will have to check for every single variant separately, slowing things down as well). The save format itself will likely change as well (why store IDs as two separate 8 and 4 bit arrays, which requires fancy bit twiddling (Java, as well as most other languages, does not natively support 4 bit datatypes so the game has to split/combine bytes to make efficient use of storage and memory), plus another 4 bits for metadata, instead of a single 16 bit array that stores all of them and allows for 65536 IDs).
Do you have some specifics? I'm looking at the 1.13 "plan" and I see:
- A whole lot of command block changes. Certainly be annoying for people who use those a lot having to rewrite them all I suppose.
- Texture changes. I personally am not a fan of the ones I've seen but I hardly think its a massive change to the game, especially since texture packs are still a thing that exists and someone will almost certainly release a "classic textures" pack within hours of 1.13's release (probably within hours of its first RC for that matter,) so it would be trivial to revert if you wanted.
- Precious little else.
I'm not sure what you (or Reddit) is super concerned with here? The rename to "Java Edition" I know is something everyone complains about (because you know, that title screen logo is the most important part of the game!) but that was already done in 1.12.2 and therefore not part of the 1.13 plan..
Is there something major that just.. didn't get mentioned on minecraftwiki's 1.13 pages?
Your personal game can be reverted, to be sure, but think about it. These new, worse textures will be plastered EVERYWHERE. Merchandise. Youtube. Reddit. The majority of Bedrock Edition users. This will become what people see when they find something "Minecraft".
The plan as we know of it at this point consists of two things: command changes and texture changes. I'm pretty sure that the few things you saw would not result in scrapping "most" of anything. You also need to ask yourself: Is this really the majority, or just the loudest group saying these things?
It's amusing that the only argument used is the "vocal majority" fallacy. Is there really nothing better anyone can come up with? Because that's the only thing I've seen, and it has no logical value.
I thought the majority Of SALES are on the "Better Together" platforms anyway. What should carry more say in the long haul anyway, people cutting checks or people making noise?
If anything, some You Tube channels were recently invited to Mojang offices in Stockholm. Talking and listening was going on with both sides, actual dialog. Should that impact the direction of content being added?
It's amusing that the only argument used is the "vocal majority" fallacy. Is there really nothing better anyone can come up with? Because that's the only thing I've seen, and it has no logical value.
"Only argument?" That's the first time anything like that has been used that I can see. Are you reading everything?
I know my fallacies. The one you think I'm using is called "silent majority." I am not. What I'm actually doing is asking you to verify that you're looking at a majority of the people who are not silent. I don't care about those who don't post. So let me clarify:
Of those who do post, are you looking at a majority of reddit posters on r/Minecraft, or are you looking at a vocal minority on the site? Are you relying on the availability heuristic, anchoring, confirmation bias, or some other cognitive bias to reach your conclusions?
Your personal game can be reverted, to be sure, but think about it. These new, worse textures will be plastered EVERYWHERE. Merchandise. Youtube. Reddit. The majority of Bedrock Edition users. This will become what people see when they find something "Minecraft".
So your complaint is that other people won't be playing the game the way you want them to play it? That seems a little.. self-centered. And if the new changes are really as terrible as you're trying to claim, wouldn't everyone be trying to revert anyway and solving your "but other people will use it!" problem?
The new command changes makes the whole system very convoluted...
I don't know about convoluted. It seems pretty straightforward to me and even simplified in some ways, and pretty much all of the changes have notes regarding how to convert from the old syntax to the new.
That said, some of the changes will be annoying for non-command-block users as well. In particular, having to type out the full words for /difficulty and /gamemode instead of just being able to use c or 0 or whatever. I knew they were removing the numerics so I'd been training myself to use the shorthands but apparently they're removing those as well. I'm sure I'll get used to it but certainly annoying in the short term.
However, I hardly think of that as a game breaking change. Its not like (most) people change gamemodes or difficulty too often. Testing redstone contraptions is about the only big one I can think of, followed perhaps by switching between creative and spectator for the fast flying (which has F3-n as a shortcut now.)
Message to Mojang! you all are adding too much to Minecraft! 1.13 has too many new textures! changing the crafting tables? really? I also don't like the combat update. I'm sorry, I still love Minecraft, but I'm going to stick with 1.8. those were the good old days.
To be honest, I don't understand the point of this thread. Minecraft will always be evolving, if you have a problem then don't play the new versions. This is a 10 page discussion about a pointless topic- Mojang isn't gonna start removing things from the game. Most players would rather play 1.12 than Alpha, if you're in the minority don't start arguing for something that we all know will never happen.
I know this is supposed to be a place where everyone can express their opinions, but there's nothing to discuss here.
So your complaint is that other people won't be playing the game the way you want them to play it? That seems a little.. self-centered. And if the new changes are really as terrible as you're trying to claim, wouldn't everyone be trying to revert anyway and solving your "but other people will use it!" problem?
...what?
The point is clearly that other people may not be able to see the textures they want to see or use the textures they want to use. Not sure why you turned it into this uber hostile thing.
The point is clearly that other people may not be able to see the textures they want to see or use the textures they want to use. Not sure why you turned it into this uber hostile thing.
I'm not sure where you're going with this. You can see whatever textures you want in your own games (via a texture pack) as noted. For the other places you mentioned:
These new, worse textures will be plastered EVERYWHERE.
Probably.
Merchandise.
Most merchandise is already not exactly pixel- (or even color-) perfect anyway, so this won't be much of a change.
Youtube.
Youtubers who don't like the new textures are almost certainly smart enough to find a texture pack (its kind of their job, after all.) Not to mention many -- perhaps most -- already use texture packs, even if its only minor changes like clear glass or the 16/32bit upgraded textures. So if what you want to see is purely classic textures, you probably can avoid Youtube already. And for those that do like the new textures well.. that's their choice.
Reddit.
Reddit users (and MCForum users and whoever else) are similar to Youtubers: Those that care will change texture packs, and those that don't are welcome to play with the new ones if they want.
The majority of Bedrock Edition users.
Well you got me here. Bedrock editions want to upsell you texture packs so unless Microsoft decides to offer a "classic textures" pack, those folk are out of luck.
This will become what people see when they find something "Minecraft".
Sure. That's kind of the point no? I mean how many people still remember the old pink gravel? Or the even older original tree leaves? Or any of the other changes that are more than a year or so old. I still miss pink gravel at times. The grey gravel looks far too much like cobble.
To be honest, I don't understand the point of this thread. Minecraft will always be evolving, if you have a problem then don't play the new versions. This is a 10 page discussion about a pointless topic- Mojang isn't gonna start removing things from the game. Most players would rather play 1.12 than Alpha, if you're in the minority don't start arguing for something that we all know will never happen.
I know this is supposed to be a place where everyone can express their opinions, but there's nothing to discuss here.
Really, this happens for every release of every long-running game. If you believe these threads, Minecraft would have been "done" somewhere during beta. I mean pistons? Who needs that junk? If you want mods go download them yourself!
I also play World of Warcraft.. and similarly, every new expansion (and even most of the smaller content patches) were going to be the "death" of WoW. Well WoW's still going strong. Certainly not as string as it used to be but most of the decline can be attributed to simply getting long in the tooth (people just getting bored of it, combined with the general industry-wide decline of MMOs limiting the number of new players to replace the old) rather than being "killed" by any particular feature they added or removed.
I'm sure other games go through a similar cycle, and most of the time I expect that it all amounts to nothing (though I'm sure there's probably at least one or two examples a game where the forums really did correctly predict some specific change or other would kill it.)
This thread appears to be going off-topic again. This thread is not about the Better Together update, or the popularity of the Java edition vs non-Java editions, it is about discussing whether Mojang has added/is adding too much stuff to the Java edition since 1.8.
Please limit this discussion to the Java edition and stop making this thread about Java vs non-Java platforms.
They haven't added too much stuff, they've added the wrong kind of stuff. They should have focused on the survival, on the world generation, on the crafting trees, on the caving, on the sandbox elements, but instead we have an odd clump of RPG style adventure game elements (along with some good building cultivation, it's true). Minecraft was and is a survival sandbox building game. It didn't need all these various objectives and goals, the player should set their own goals (hence the crafting tree concept). What we have right now has some great developments, but most of it is just dead weight that either shouldn't have been a priority at all, or should have been worked into efforts to balance and lengthen the game's currently pathetic progression path.
The first 50 or so times I found diamonds it was a magical feeling. Now that feeling is nothing short of void because the idea of discovery and exploration on your own terms was never cultivated, never expanded.
The first 50 or so times I found diamonds it was a magical feeling. Now that feeling is nothing short of void because the idea of discovery and exploration on your own terms was never cultivated, never expanded.
I'm pretty sure that's just you getting bored. I still have fun discovering and exploring, and quite a few things from recent updates factor into that. It's still a magical feeling for me to find diamonds. You say the game should be focused on some particular elements, but without any sort of logic to back it up, those are just things you want.
...Though I'd like to talk even more about this, I have a feeling that a discussion of what Minecraft should have prioritized or which direction it should go probably needs another thread.
The Tab key is your friend with this one. If you learn to use it frequently, this update will mean that you'll type '/gamemode c+Tab' instead of '/gamemode c'
A grand difference of one extra button.
This is so much less of an issue than people are making it seem to be.
I didn't know about that one, thanks. Time to start the retraining again!
The thing is, I see a lot of people here hating on the combat update. It's not that bad. You just have to get used to it. It's like Windows 8. It feels much different, but once you use it more and more, it feels right. *Windows 10 is a different story, because I have been finding all kinds of bugs, but that's beside the point) A lot of the stuff added in 1.12 is stuff I probably will never use, but Mojang is not adding too much, they're keeping the game updated so that it doesn't die.
I decided to update "Old Caves" to 1.12.2, and as a bonus I included an "Old Mineshafts" mod which increases mineshaft frequency to 1.6.4 levels (2.5 times more common); both mods together make the underground nearly identical to 1.6.4 except for mineshafts in mesa biomes, ravines, which are only different in the way they curve from their starting point, and dungeons, which will still be twice as rare unless you increase the count to 16 in Customized and will be in different locations either way (they doubled their y-range from 128 to 256 in 1.7, meaning that only half as many attempts are below sea level).
Here is a comparison of the same seed in 1.6.4 (actually, 1.5.1, which is virtually the same; this is a world I play on, ignore the mine tunnels) and modified 1.12.2:
Or this?
For comparison, this is what vanilla 1.7+ looks like - there is not much variation in the size and density of cave systems, much less different types of caves:
Or this?
There are 31 unique biomes here, not counting sub-biomes or edge/river biomes, and representing the full gamut of climates in an area measuring about 2200x2200 blocks (there are many other biomes which are not shown here):
For comparison, this AMIDST map of 1.7+ shows the same area - just look at how bland and boring this seed is! At least it has a jungle, and a reasonably-sized one at that (if I want huge biomes I'll play on Large Biomes). Not much height variation in most biomes either, and while you can use Customized it wrecks biomes that are supposed to be flat:
As far as I know you have to actually hack the game to do any of those, and I doubt that commands or add-ons will ever completely displace mods because in order to do that they would have to basically open-source the game so you can have full access to the game's code and alter anything you want, not whatever Mojang deems worthy of adding a hook or setting for (even Forge suffers from this problem, which is one reason why I do not use it and many of the more complex Forge mods contain "core mods" which directly alter the game).
That's not really new though; ever since 1.2 the game has mostly been able to handle 4096 block IDs except for a small issue with how ItemStacks were handled, limiting them to 256 (the same numerical ID is used to represent both blocks and items) - which I thought was removed in 1.8 when they removed numerical item IDs (though since older worlds can be read they must have retained it in some manner), which mods, including Forge itself, also fixed (ever wondered how big modpacks add hundreds of new blocks, many with IDs in the 1000+ range?). It is actually surprisingly easy to fix this and Mojang could have done so years ago (the easiest method, which I've tried before, shifts item IDs up so they start at 4096 instead of 256, breaking compatibility with older versions but you can just convert the IDs and add a version tag to chunks the first time they are loaded).
Also, the way they are planning to make every variant of block its own block ID means that many of those 4096 IDs are going to be used up anyway (even 256 IDs with 16 data values each is 4096 separate states), and others will change, so existing tools and mapping utilities will break, and coding will become more complicated (for example, currently ores and many other world decoration features replace any type of stone by only checking for the block ID; in 1.13 they will have to check for every single variant separately, slowing things down as well). The save format itself will likely change as well (why store IDs as two separate 8 and 4 bit arrays, which requires fancy bit twiddling (Java, as well as most other languages, does not natively support 4 bit datatypes so the game has to split/combine bytes to make efficient use of storage and memory), plus another 4 bits for metadata, instead of a single 16 bit array that stores all of them and allows for 65536 IDs).
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
Your personal game can be reverted, to be sure, but think about it. These new, worse textures will be plastered EVERYWHERE. Merchandise. Youtube. Reddit. The majority of Bedrock Edition users. This will become what people see when they find something "Minecraft".
Why am I here
It's amusing that the only argument used is the "vocal majority" fallacy. Is there really nothing better anyone can come up with? Because that's the only thing I've seen, and it has no logical value.
Why am I here
I thought the majority Of SALES are on the "Better Together" platforms anyway. What should carry more say in the long haul anyway, people cutting checks or people making noise?
If anything, some You Tube channels were recently invited to Mojang offices in Stockholm. Talking and listening was going on with both sides, actual dialog. Should that impact the direction of content being added?
"Only argument?" That's the first time anything like that has been used that I can see. Are you reading everything?
I know my fallacies. The one you think I'm using is called "silent majority." I am not. What I'm actually doing is asking you to verify that you're looking at a majority of the people who are not silent. I don't care about those who don't post. So let me clarify:
Of those who do post, are you looking at a majority of reddit posters on r/Minecraft, or are you looking at a vocal minority on the site? Are you relying on the availability heuristic, anchoring, confirmation bias, or some other cognitive bias to reach your conclusions?
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
So your complaint is that other people won't be playing the game the way you want them to play it? That seems a little.. self-centered. And if the new changes are really as terrible as you're trying to claim, wouldn't everyone be trying to revert anyway and solving your "but other people will use it!" problem?
I don't know about convoluted. It seems pretty straightforward to me and even simplified in some ways, and pretty much all of the changes have notes regarding how to convert from the old syntax to the new.
That said, some of the changes will be annoying for non-command-block users as well. In particular, having to type out the full words for /difficulty and /gamemode instead of just being able to use c or 0 or whatever. I knew they were removing the numerics so I'd been training myself to use the shorthands but apparently they're removing those as well. I'm sure I'll get used to it but certainly annoying in the short term.
However, I hardly think of that as a game breaking change. Its not like (most) people change gamemodes or difficulty too often. Testing redstone contraptions is about the only big one I can think of, followed perhaps by switching between creative and spectator for the fast flying (which has F3-n as a shortcut now.)
To be honest, I don't understand the point of this thread. Minecraft will always be evolving, if you have a problem then don't play the new versions. This is a 10 page discussion about a pointless topic- Mojang isn't gonna start removing things from the game. Most players would rather play 1.12 than Alpha, if you're in the minority don't start arguing for something that we all know will never happen.
I know this is supposed to be a place where everyone can express their opinions, but there's nothing to discuss here.
...what?
The point is clearly that other people may not be able to see the textures they want to see or use the textures they want to use. Not sure why you turned it into this uber hostile thing.
Why am I here
I'm not sure where you're going with this. You can see whatever textures you want in your own games (via a texture pack) as noted. For the other places you mentioned:
Probably.
Most merchandise is already not exactly pixel- (or even color-) perfect anyway, so this won't be much of a change.
Youtubers who don't like the new textures are almost certainly smart enough to find a texture pack (its kind of their job, after all.) Not to mention many -- perhaps most -- already use texture packs, even if its only minor changes like clear glass or the 16/32bit upgraded textures. So if what you want to see is purely classic textures, you probably can avoid Youtube already. And for those that do like the new textures well.. that's their choice.
Reddit users (and MCForum users and whoever else) are similar to Youtubers: Those that care will change texture packs, and those that don't are welcome to play with the new ones if they want.
Well you got me here. Bedrock editions want to upsell you texture packs so unless Microsoft decides to offer a "classic textures" pack, those folk are out of luck.
Sure. That's kind of the point no? I mean how many people still remember the old pink gravel? Or the even older original tree leaves? Or any of the other changes that are more than a year or so old. I still miss pink gravel at times. The grey gravel looks far too much like cobble.
Really, this happens for every release of every long-running game. If you believe these threads, Minecraft would have been "done" somewhere during beta. I mean pistons? Who needs that junk? If you want mods go download them yourself!
I also play World of Warcraft.. and similarly, every new expansion (and even most of the smaller content patches) were going to be the "death" of WoW. Well WoW's still going strong. Certainly not as string as it used to be but most of the decline can be attributed to simply getting long in the tooth (people just getting bored of it, combined with the general industry-wide decline of MMOs limiting the number of new players to replace the old) rather than being "killed" by any particular feature they added or removed.
I'm sure other games go through a similar cycle, and most of the time I expect that it all amounts to nothing (though I'm sure there's probably at least one or two examples a game where the forums really did correctly predict some specific change or other would kill it.)
This thread appears to be going off-topic again. This thread is not about the Better Together update, or the popularity of the Java edition vs non-Java editions, it is about discussing whether Mojang has added/is adding too much stuff to the Java edition since 1.8.
Please limit this discussion to the Java edition and stop making this thread about Java vs non-Java platforms.
- sunperp
Then for the final time I will say it:
They haven't added too much stuff, they've added the wrong kind of stuff. They should have focused on the survival, on the world generation, on the crafting trees, on the caving, on the sandbox elements, but instead we have an odd clump of RPG style adventure game elements (along with some good building cultivation, it's true). Minecraft was and is a survival sandbox building game. It didn't need all these various objectives and goals, the player should set their own goals (hence the crafting tree concept). What we have right now has some great developments, but most of it is just dead weight that either shouldn't have been a priority at all, or should have been worked into efforts to balance and lengthen the game's currently pathetic progression path.
The first 50 or so times I found diamonds it was a magical feeling. Now that feeling is nothing short of void because the idea of discovery and exploration on your own terms was never cultivated, never expanded.
Why am I here
I'm pretty sure that's just you getting bored. I still have fun discovering and exploring, and quite a few things from recent updates factor into that. It's still a magical feeling for me to find diamonds. You say the game should be focused on some particular elements, but without any sort of logic to back it up, those are just things you want.
...Though I'd like to talk even more about this, I have a feeling that a discussion of what Minecraft should have prioritized or which direction it should go probably needs another thread.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
I didn't know about that one, thanks. Time to start the retraining again!
beta 1.7.3 was the good old days.
The thing is, I see a lot of people here hating on the combat update. It's not that bad. You just have to get used to it. It's like Windows 8. It feels much different, but once you use it more and more, it feels right. *Windows 10 is a different story, because I have been finding all kinds of bugs, but that's beside the point) A lot of the stuff added in 1.12 is stuff I probably will never use, but Mojang is not adding too much, they're keeping the game updated so that it doesn't die.
Check out my Youtube channel! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKgkHO1PUgitEdM6su0P8pg
Even then they could always make that stuff optional. We need new game modes.
Modifying the rules of the world itself we be a much needed addition to keep things fresh.
Just build the darn thing already!
totally agree!
Live my life to the fullest!
Really? Can you do this with command blocks?
Or this?
For comparison, this is what vanilla 1.7+ looks like - there is not much variation in the size and density of cave systems, much less different types of caves:
Or this?
For comparison, this AMIDST map of 1.7+ shows the same area - just look at how bland and boring this seed is! At least it has a jungle, and a reasonably-sized one at that (if I want huge biomes I'll play on Large Biomes). Not much height variation in most biomes either, and while you can use Customized it wrecks biomes that are supposed to be flat:
As far as I know you have to actually hack the game to do any of those, and I doubt that commands or add-ons will ever completely displace mods because in order to do that they would have to basically open-source the game so you can have full access to the game's code and alter anything you want, not whatever Mojang deems worthy of adding a hook or setting for (even Forge suffers from this problem, which is one reason why I do not use it and many of the more complex Forge mods contain "core mods" which directly alter the game).
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?