The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
Join Date:
6/18/2014
Posts:
62
Location:
On Earth...Probably.
Minecraft:
Kholdwyn
Member Details
At the end of the day it's just a game. A game we all enjoy and everyone one of us enjoys it differently. Giving people the option to change their worlds won't affect yours in anyway unless you're on their server. In such a case you can simply find another to your liking, there are hundreds after all. Garry's mod has no rules either, and plenty of people (including me) play it. Providing this option simply fixes the need for a person to mod the game themselves, not having it wouldn't stop them but makes it easier for those among the community who aren't as strong with such technical fixes. Having this option also doesn't stop you from creating the worlds you want.I probably won't ever use that particular feature, though I like the feature that will allow me to raise the water-table. People shouldn't get upset about having more options. More options doesn't prohibit you from doing the same as you've always done in your worlds. If someone uses them in their own worlds it's their business.
I'm trying to look at this through Mojang's point of view. I can play my way and you can play your way. I care about me and you care about you. Mojang has to care about both of us, and how the changes they make affect our collective enjoyment of the game.
Here's my prediction if this goes in... Every new player under age 15 will quickly ruin the game for themselves because they almost universally lack patience, and without new players, the minecraft community will age and die off sooner than it would otherwise.
Making the game fun with the world generator is each player's responsibility. I've played it both ways.
First, I made everything exceedingly rare. This made the game fun because I had to conserve materials and be careful not to use too much iron, making everything more dangerous.
Second, I made everything about 1.5x more common, excepting iron and coal, which I made about twice as common. I then began to start industrializing everything. This made the game more fun because with less rarity, I felt I could afford tons of hoppers, and thus built a huge amount of complex redstone machinery and tons of mining chutes.
If someone wants to make diamonds as common as dirt, it's their fault for ruining their game experience. Players like me, on the other hand, will take advantage of the generator to play with Minecraft in ways we couldn't before.
From Mojangs point of view: 10-Year-Plan; no need to earn more money with Minecraft.
Mojang might not need to earn money and that's great, but if you think about the cool stuff they continually put into the game, and what's possible to do in Minecraft, they ought to just be getting started, not just giving up on it. What does survival mean? What does hardcore mode mean when you are in diamond armor at the end of day one?
I can totally understand someone wanting to experiment with the way ores are generated. It's not necessarily going to be used for cheating, but there needs to be rules to follow. I think we need some guidance here in regards to what's legit. Messing with ore generation ought to automatically enable cheat mode, if for no other reason than to make a statement that it is in fact cheating. I realize you can do a lot with NBTExplorer to turn cheat mode on and off, but I still think that some official stand should be made.
How do we as players know when we have crossed the line into cheat territory? I am inclined to think that generating big mountains or loopy floating islands is not cheating, but increasing things like iron and diamonds definitely is, but that's just my point of view. I'd like some official word on that.
There's no need for Mojang to create rules for players, because it's a sandbox game...
That's not true you know. Minecraft is full of rules. There are all kinds of rules for how redstone works, how water works, how you can't swim in lava, etc. It may be a sandbox game, but it is also a giant collection of rules. It is fun because it makes you learn those rules and use them to achieve whatever goal you have. That you choose your own goal makes it a sandbox game, but there are more rules there than in the U.S. constitution.
Regarding cheating:
Cheating is basically typing in a code not intended for players to use in everyday gaming (don't quote me on this).
So if Mojang gives us a tool which allows us to generate a world however we want, then there's no cheat involved.
See, that's the problem. If they let us do it, it's not regarded as cheating, even if it is cheating. Survival and hardcare modes have no meaning anymore. It is a major change of the rules. An obvious form of cheating now becomes legit!
I'm someone who's philosophy is it's your game--do as you wish, and I will use cheats here and there. I play mostly on Peaceful these days, but I mostly play Survival because of the challenge of limitations that I cannot change--like ore frequency. This would radically change the Survival environment in a way that I don't think has anything to do with playing the game by your rules. You want some more diamond? Just type /gamemode 1 int eh chat and then open inventory and add some bleeping diamonds to your inventory. There you go. We've been able to play by those kind of me, myself and I rules all along--why do we need this? Why change the environment for everyone so a few people can have it easier without having to fess up that they "cheat"? It just erodes the whole point of playing Survival IMO, the reward of having to really work to get resources, especially rarer ones.
Maybe if there was third mode, where there was this option, OK. I'd be cool with that. But I would prefer they leave this out of regular vanilla Survival.
I'm someone who's philosophy is it's your game--do as you wish, and I will use cheats here and there. I play mostly on Peaceful these days, but I mostly play Survival because of the challenge of limitations that I cannot change--like ore frequency. This would radically change the Survival environment in a way that I don't think has anything to do with playing the game by your rules. You want some more diamond? Just type /gamemode 1 int eh chat and then open inventory and add some bleeping diamonds to your inventory. There you go. We've been able to play by those kind of me, myself and I rules all along--why do we need this? Why change the environment for everyone so a few people can have it easier without having to fess up that they "cheat"? It just erodes the whole point of playing Survival IMO, the reward of having to really work to get resources, especially rarer ones.
Maybe if there was third mode, where there was this option, OK. I'd be cool with that. But I would prefer they leave this out of regular vanilla Survival.
What is your viewpoint of changing cave generation (or other structures) to make them similar to an older version of the game? That is, people who like exploring huge caves are disappointed with the caves in 1.7+, which were made much smaller; mineshafts were also made 40% as common. Or the way biomes are distributed; the temperature system was sure a bad idea if you like having a variety of biomes in a reasonably sized area (i.e. within 1000 blocks of spawn). I don't think changing either of these can ruin survival in any way (even in a smaller 1.7 cave you can easily find plenty of iron for full iron armor/tools in minutes, but if you just explore them for explorations' sake like me they run out too soon; heck, if I made ores half as common that would mean I could spend twice as much time before having to return to unload what I mined; I even decided not to use a Fortune pickaxe in my current world for that reason*) - yet they were not included in the "customized" world settings (just on/off for caves/structures and one biome or all). Indeed, they could probably even easily add an option to change the distribution of land and oceans, as there is a mod that does just that (and more).
*And unlike many such mods (including the one I based it on), the new armor/tools I added are balanced around the ore's rarity more than offsetting the durability increase, being only enchantable with books, and more expensive to repair; most people would rather just use diamond which is otherwise the same.
----I always laugh when someone says diamonds are hard to find. I played minecraft for an hour waiting for my gf to get back from school, started a game from scratch and had a full diamond set by the time she got back. It's all about priorities, if you don't put mining as a priority first, ofc it will take longer to find diamonds because you aren't going for them.
Let's ban customized flatworlds, someone could make ore layers and exploit the crap out of the game. :/
Friends don't let friends exploit minecraft singleplayer..
Quote from cephalo2»
How do we as players know when we have crossed the line into cheat territory? I am inclined to think that generating big mountains or loopy floating islands is not cheating, but increasing things like iron and diamonds definitely is, but that's just my point of view. I'd like some official word on that.
What if the players want to make the game harder? What if they want to make the ore rate more realistic? You're ignoring every possible scenario because:
Quote from cephalo2»Every new player under age 15 will quickly ruin the game for themselves because they almost universally lack patience, and without new players, the minecraft community will age and die off sooner than it would otherwise.
Yeaahhhhh... No.
Quote from cephalo2»See, that's the problem. If they let us do it, it's not regarded as cheating, even if it is cheating. Survival and hardcare modes have no meaning anymore. It is a major change of the rules. An obvious form of cheating now becomes legit!
Not cheating if they let us do it, no matter how much you think so.
I don't see why not. More fine control over world generation is nothing but a good thing. People are more free to play the game how they like - with more ore gen that means less grinding, and with less ore gen (if that's an option? it should be) that makes it harder. Children play the game too, and combined with mods which can make progression MUCH easier a lower-than-normal gen would be great.
As for the "cheat" complaint, I think that's just silly. People seem to forget that Minecraft is a sandbox. It's not a "videogame" in the traditional sense of the word, the focus is creativity - "survival mode" was an afterthought, and it's still extremely basic really. Yes there are some many of us who care about the gameplay and progression more than the sandbox roots, but hey that's what mods are for - and Adventure mode.
What they really need (IMO) is completely alternative oregen - rather than being totally random in any chunk or height, there could literally be a diamond deposit that has diamonds all the way to the near-surface (but only have say a 1% chance to spawn in a chunk). Diamonds would still spawn randomly as before but much less often. Encourages exploration and expansion... but that's just me. Or make coal only abundant under specific biomes like forests for example. There is a mod that tries to do this "realistic oregen" already anyway.
In the end, the more customization - the better. I don't get what the beef is about - if people want an easier game that's their choice, it lets the others brag about how l33t they are at minecrafting; or whatever the hell the problem is with you crazy competitive types lol.
Next thing they'll add a difficulty slider for survival/adventure mode (which determines starting heart container amount and general mob spawn rate for example) and people will complain about that.
There's no need for Mojang to create rules for players, because it's a sandbox game...
That's not true you know. Minecraft is full of rules. There are all kinds of rules for how redstone works, how water works, how you can't swim in lava, etc. It may be a sandbox game, but it is also a giant collection of rules.
Sorry but that is either one of the dumbest things I've ever heard or you've outrageously misunderstood the statement and your argument is invalid. He said rules, Minecraft has basically no rules in any mode, there is no objective to it. This is a fact and if you disagree then I'm sorry but your definition of Minecraft - or even any game - is just wrong. Minecraft is still a sandbox game in any mode, just with varying levels of game mechanics based on difficulty - these are rules in a sense but rules are hard-coded, these are not. People make their OWN rules, with either adventure maps, mod assistance, or good old-fashioned "pretending" and "imagination". Flowing water and burning lava are game mechanics, not "rules", and they can be turned off via Creative mode.
If you stand by what you say, I take it you also complain about people playing in Creative mode yeah?
EDIT: If we're going to argue semantics more, I welcome it - let's start by defining the world "rules" - one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct or procedure within a particular area of activity. So in Minecraft, tell me - what is the particular area of activity? NOTHING, it's a sandbox! People make their own rules!
Not cheating if they let us do it, no matter how much you think so.
Fine. Let us agree then that this is the biggest change to the game since creative mode was introduced. It's a change that needs to be considered very carefully.
He said rules, Minecraft has basically no rules in any mode, there is no objective to it. This is a fact and if you disagree then I'm sorry but your definition of Minecraft - or even any game - is just wrong.
You can't swim in lava without taking heavy damage in survival mode. That's a rule. You can't fly in survival mode. That's a rule. You have to wait for crops to grow before you can harvest them, or you have to use bonemeal. That's a rule. Even creative mode has rules! Sand and gravel fall down! That's a rule.
What else do you call these things? It's a game with rules like any other game. These are the rules. There are more rules in this game than in any boardgame you can think of.
Minecraft is a set of well crafted rules! Without them the exercise is meaningless.
What else do you call these things? It's a game with rules like any other game. These are the rules. There are more rules in this game than in any boardgame you can think of.
Minecraft is a set of well crafted rules! Without them the exercise is meaningless.
Are you an idiot or just a child with poor literacy skills? I literally just said what else you call these things.
You're arguing semantics. You've taken the original statement of "minecraft has no rules" and interpreted "rules" as "laws of the universe" which is not what he meant. Rules can mean game mechanics, but in the context that it was used he meant "laws".
The argument is simply invalid, even if it were idiot-land and your interpretation was true, it still doesn't change the fact that these customisable game mechanics are not a cheat.
By your definition of rules, you'd have to call anybody who plays any other videogame on "Easy" instead of "Normal" a cheater also. It's the same damn thing, it's a game mechanic, a game setting, the "laws" (rules, to you) are not changing - the MECHANICS are being modified, just like a difficulty setting would.
Now, let's go back to the silly discussion/debate at hand instead of arguing over everybody's definition/interpretation of rules vs laws vs mechanics lol
This is basically just a thread for grinders and gamers to throw stones at each other, should be locked IMO - surprised it's allowed.
It's a sandbox game. Who cares? People can create a world with hundreds of diamonds underground, very few diamonds, or just create a world with the default settings. There shouldn't really be any problem with letting players make their world have loads of diamonds that they can mine underground....
Players want challenge? They can use a normal world, and even set it to Hardcore mode. Players want the game to be easy? Use a customized world with many diamond ores, or simply play on a normal world with Easy difficulty. There will be no real problem with letting players customize their world generation and control how many ores spawn.
Fine. Let us agree then that this is the biggest change to the game since creative mode was introduced. It's a change that needs to be considered very carefully.
It's a change that gives players more control over their world, if they want it. What of it? People might enjoy themselves too much?
Are you an idiot or just a child with poor literacy skills? I literally just said what else you call these things.
You're arguing semantics. You've taken the original statement of "minecraft has no rules" and interpreted "rules" as "laws of the universe" which is not what he meant. Rules can mean game mechanics, but in the context that it was used he meant "laws".
The argument is simply invalid, even if it were idiot-land and your interpretation was true, it still doesn't change the fact that these customisable game mechanics are not a cheat.
By your definition of rules, you'd have to call anybody who plays any other videogame on "Easy" instead of "Normal" a cheater also. It's the same damn thing, it's a game mechanic, a game setting, the "laws" (rules, to you) are not changing - the MECHANICS are being modified, just like a difficulty setting would.
Now, let's go back to the silly discussion/debate at hand instead of arguing over everybody's definition/interpretation of rules vs laws vs mechanics lol
This is basically just a thread for grinders and gamers to throw stones at each other, should be locked IMO - surprised it's allowed.
I really don't care for your insulting language, it's pretty much uncalled for. 'Game mechanics, rules or laws of the universe are completely and totally synonymous. You're the only person on this thread with an issue in that regard. All I'm saying is that this is a rather monumental change for survival and hardcore modes. Economic scarcity is a core game mechanic in any game, and if you're the one designing the game, you shouldn't take it lightly as if it were an arbitrary decision. Getting the economics right is your core responsibility as a game designer.
It's a change that gives players more control over their world, if they want it. What of it? People might enjoy themselves too much?
Is giving control automatically good design? A player has complete control over creative mode. If player control is what makes the game better, why even have survival and hardcore at all? Does limiting a player have no role in game design?
Is giving control automatically good design? A player has complete control over creative mode. If player control is what makes the game better, why even have survival and hardcore at all? Does limiting a player have no role in game design?
Sorry to break your strawman, but I was talking about the world creation, and setting up the experience you want beforehand.
Here's my prediction if this goes in... Every new player under age 15 will quickly ruin the game for themselves because they almost universally lack patience, and without new players, the minecraft community will age and die off sooner than it would otherwise.
First, I made everything exceedingly rare. This made the game fun because I had to conserve materials and be careful not to use too much iron, making everything more dangerous.
Second, I made everything about 1.5x more common, excepting iron and coal, which I made about twice as common. I then began to start industrializing everything. This made the game more fun because with less rarity, I felt I could afford tons of hoppers, and thus built a huge amount of complex redstone machinery and tons of mining chutes.
If someone wants to make diamonds as common as dirt, it's their fault for ruining their game experience. Players like me, on the other hand, will take advantage of the generator to play with Minecraft in ways we couldn't before.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
Mojang might not need to earn money and that's great, but if you think about the cool stuff they continually put into the game, and what's possible to do in Minecraft, they ought to just be getting started, not just giving up on it. What does survival mean? What does hardcore mode mean when you are in diamond armor at the end of day one?
I can totally understand someone wanting to experiment with the way ores are generated. It's not necessarily going to be used for cheating, but there needs to be rules to follow. I think we need some guidance here in regards to what's legit. Messing with ore generation ought to automatically enable cheat mode, if for no other reason than to make a statement that it is in fact cheating. I realize you can do a lot with NBTExplorer to turn cheat mode on and off, but I still think that some official stand should be made.
How do we as players know when we have crossed the line into cheat territory? I am inclined to think that generating big mountains or loopy floating islands is not cheating, but increasing things like iron and diamonds definitely is, but that's just my point of view. I'd like some official word on that.
That's not true you know. Minecraft is full of rules. There are all kinds of rules for how redstone works, how water works, how you can't swim in lava, etc. It may be a sandbox game, but it is also a giant collection of rules. It is fun because it makes you learn those rules and use them to achieve whatever goal you have. That you choose your own goal makes it a sandbox game, but there are more rules there than in the U.S. constitution.
See, that's the problem. If they let us do it, it's not regarded as cheating, even if it is cheating. Survival and hardcare modes have no meaning anymore. It is a major change of the rules. An obvious form of cheating now becomes legit!
Maybe if there was third mode, where there was this option, OK. I'd be cool with that. But I would prefer they leave this out of regular vanilla Survival.
Formerly known as ORabbit around these parts.
What is your viewpoint of changing cave generation (or other structures) to make them similar to an older version of the game? That is, people who like exploring huge caves are disappointed with the caves in 1.7+, which were made much smaller; mineshafts were also made 40% as common. Or the way biomes are distributed; the temperature system was sure a bad idea if you like having a variety of biomes in a reasonably sized area (i.e. within 1000 blocks of spawn). I don't think changing either of these can ruin survival in any way (even in a smaller 1.7 cave you can easily find plenty of iron for full iron armor/tools in minutes, but if you just explore them for explorations' sake like me they run out too soon; heck, if I made ores half as common that would mean I could spend twice as much time before having to return to unload what I mined; I even decided not to use a Fortune pickaxe in my current world for that reason*) - yet they were not included in the "customized" world settings (just on/off for caves/structures and one biome or all). Indeed, they could probably even easily add an option to change the distribution of land and oceans, as there is a mod that does just that (and more).
*And unlike many such mods (including the one I based it on), the new armor/tools I added are balanced around the ore's rarity more than offsetting the durability increase, being only enchantable with books, and more expensive to repair; most people would rather just use diamond which is otherwise the same.
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
Let's ban customized flatworlds, someone could make ore layers and exploit the crap out of the game. :/
Friends don't let friends exploit minecraft singleplayer..
What if the players want to make the game harder? What if they want to make the ore rate more realistic? You're ignoring every possible scenario because:
Yeaahhhhh... No.
Not cheating if they let us do it, no matter how much you think so.
https://soundcloud.com/slimy-4
As for the "cheat" complaint, I think that's just silly. People seem to forget that Minecraft is a sandbox. It's not a "videogame" in the traditional sense of the word, the focus is creativity - "survival mode" was an afterthought, and it's still extremely basic really. Yes there are
somemany of us who care about the gameplay and progression more than the sandbox roots, but hey that's what mods are for - and Adventure mode.What they really need (IMO) is completely alternative oregen - rather than being totally random in any chunk or height, there could literally be a diamond deposit that has diamonds all the way to the near-surface (but only have say a 1% chance to spawn in a chunk). Diamonds would still spawn randomly as before but much less often. Encourages exploration and expansion... but that's just me. Or make coal only abundant under specific biomes like forests for example. There is a mod that tries to do this "realistic oregen" already anyway.
In the end, the more customization - the better. I don't get what the beef is about - if people want an easier game that's their choice, it lets the others brag about how l33t they are at minecrafting; or whatever the hell the problem is with you crazy competitive types lol.
Next thing they'll add a difficulty slider for survival/adventure mode (which determines starting heart container amount and general mob spawn rate for example) and people will complain about that.
Sorry but that is either one of the dumbest things I've ever heard or you've outrageously misunderstood the statement and your argument is invalid. He said rules, Minecraft has basically no rules in any mode, there is no objective to it. This is a fact and if you disagree then I'm sorry but your definition of Minecraft - or even any game - is just wrong. Minecraft is still a sandbox game in any mode, just with varying levels of game mechanics based on difficulty - these are rules in a sense but rules are hard-coded, these are not. People make their OWN rules, with either adventure maps, mod assistance, or good old-fashioned "pretending" and "imagination". Flowing water and burning lava are game mechanics, not "rules", and they can be turned off via Creative mode.
If you stand by what you say, I take it you also complain about people playing in Creative mode yeah?
EDIT: If we're going to argue semantics more, I welcome it - let's start by defining the world "rules" - one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct or procedure within a particular area of activity. So in Minecraft, tell me - what is the particular area of activity? NOTHING, it's a sandbox! People make their own rules!
Fine. Let us agree then that this is the biggest change to the game since creative mode was introduced. It's a change that needs to be considered very carefully.
You can't swim in lava without taking heavy damage in survival mode. That's a rule. You can't fly in survival mode. That's a rule. You have to wait for crops to grow before you can harvest them, or you have to use bonemeal. That's a rule. Even creative mode has rules! Sand and gravel fall down! That's a rule.
What else do you call these things? It's a game with rules like any other game. These are the rules. There are more rules in this game than in any boardgame you can think of.
Minecraft is a set of well crafted rules! Without them the exercise is meaningless.
Are you an idiot or just a child with poor literacy skills? I literally just said what else you call these things.
You're arguing semantics. You've taken the original statement of "minecraft has no rules" and interpreted "rules" as "laws of the universe" which is not what he meant. Rules can mean game mechanics, but in the context that it was used he meant "laws".
The argument is simply invalid, even if it were idiot-land and your interpretation was true, it still doesn't change the fact that these customisable game mechanics are not a cheat.
By your definition of rules, you'd have to call anybody who plays any other videogame on "Easy" instead of "Normal" a cheater also. It's the same damn thing, it's a game mechanic, a game setting, the "laws" (rules, to you) are not changing - the MECHANICS are being modified, just like a difficulty setting would.
Now, let's go back to the silly discussion/debate at hand instead of arguing over everybody's definition/interpretation of rules vs laws vs mechanics lol
This is basically just a thread for grinders and gamers to throw stones at each other, should be locked IMO - surprised it's allowed.
Players want challenge? They can use a normal world, and even set it to Hardcore mode. Players want the game to be easy? Use a customized world with many diamond ores, or simply play on a normal world with Easy difficulty. There will be no real problem with letting players customize their world generation and control how many ores spawn.
It's a change that gives players more control over their world, if they want it. What of it? People might enjoy themselves too much?
https://soundcloud.com/slimy-4
I really don't care for your insulting language, it's pretty much uncalled for. 'Game mechanics, rules or laws of the universe are completely and totally synonymous. You're the only person on this thread with an issue in that regard. All I'm saying is that this is a rather monumental change for survival and hardcore modes. Economic scarcity is a core game mechanic in any game, and if you're the one designing the game, you shouldn't take it lightly as if it were an arbitrary decision. Getting the economics right is your core responsibility as a game designer.
Is giving control automatically good design? A player has complete control over creative mode. If player control is what makes the game better, why even have survival and hardcore at all? Does limiting a player have no role in game design?
Sorry to break your strawman, but I was talking about the world creation, and setting up the experience you want beforehand.
https://soundcloud.com/slimy-4