Probably a stupid as heck question I know, but earlier I was playing on a Minecraft server where a not-so-famous lets-player plays on (For now we will call him Bob 'cuz that's cliché) and the server OP (who will be named Tom because that is also somewhat cliché) asks Bob if they could host the actual world that Bob does his lets plays on. Then Tom said, "Wait, but that would be copyright?" and Bob replied with a 'Yeah'.
Anyways, I am not so sure on that. How could someone copyright a randomly generated world if it is RANDOMLY generated and can generate for anyone? So the question is, can someone copyright a randomly generated world seed on Minecraft? I highly doubt they can, but I am not sure which is why I am asking this question.
Your computers time has nothing to do with the seed.
Really? How certain of that are you? Because it says on this page, twice even, that if no seed is input manually, then it will use the system time as the automatic seed.
Now I know the wiki isn't always correct; it can be edited by anyone, and is as error-prone as the humans who write the articles. But riddle me this, Batman. If you don't input a seed yourself, and if it doesn't use the system time, then what does it use? "A random number," you say, but then what does it use as the seed for the RNG (random number-generator) that generates that "random" number? Some other random number? But where does it get the seed for that one? And so on. At some point, it needs to take an input from an external source (perhaps the system clock, for example, after all), or else every "random" world would have the same seed as all the rest.
Every now and then when minecraft gets updated, the seeds do change though.
The seeds don't change, the algorithm does. The algorithm is a mathematical formula that the game uses to turn a numerical value (the seed) into an arrangement of blocks and biomes (the terrain features in a Minecraft world). A "seed" isn't the same thing as the world itself; the seed and the algorithm work together to generate the world. When the algorithm changes, then even using the same seed will output different results. I think that's probably what you were getting at, but it's not what you actually said.
I edited my post to cover this point. If it doesn't use the system clock, then what does it use?
Since all seem to be editing their posts. Generating a random seed uses many different variables, including time/date. But this is only for getting a seed number but nothing more there after. You can keep your system time the same, but still does not mean the same seed will be generated, the chance is insanely low to near impossible.
For awhile it was hard to tell if people was about terrain seed generation or just getting a seed number.
I like your thinking. The answer is no, because like you said, it could possibly generate randomly.
But actually, I heard that the random seed generating has to do with your computer time/day/month/year. So I guess seeds are rare…
What you might have heard is how exactly a computer randomizes values.
A computer exists solely in the realm of logics, so there is nothing truly random about it, but the way a randomization function in languages such as C++ (And Java I should think) works, is by using ever changing variables such as your computers date and time to make the numbers it chooses appear random to generate a seed.
Using the seed, it then generates the world, which is all on Mojang.
Of course, in the case of you choosing your own seed, nothing is actually being randomized, since the randomization only happens before the seed is chosen.
And to answer the actual question, no of course you can not copyright a minecraft world seed.
What you might have heard is how exactly a computer randomizes values.
A computer exists solely in the realm of logics, so there is nothing truly random about it, but the way a randomization function in languages such as C++ (And Java I should think) works, is by using ever changing variables such as your computers date and time to make the numbers it chooses appear random to generate a seed.
Using the seed, it then generates the world, which is all on Mojang.
Of course, in the case of you choosing your own seed, nothing is actually being randomized, since the randomization only happens before the seed is chosen.
And to answer the actual question, no of course you can not copyright a minecraft world seed.
You can keep your system time the same, but still does not mean the same seed will be generated, the chance is insanely low to near impossible.
Yeah. Extremely low chance, near impossible. Roughly equal, then, to the chance of pressing "create world" on the exact same millisecond, would you say?
So the question is, can someone copyright a randomly generated world seed on Minecraft?
Copyright is meant to protect creative works. Random numbers do not qualify, nor does this situation.
There are two exceptions I can think of: 1. Encryption keys for DRM and 2. A published book containing random numbers.
In both of these cases, the random number itself is not the protected work.
one problem- the wiki isn't always reliable. If I wanted to, I could change the wiki so it says I own minecraft or Herobrine is real (both are OBVIOUSLY not true). Could have been made by someone who was with the guy on the system time thing.
This is a ridiculous objection. If you want to confirm that this is not the case, look at the edit history. Presenting a single hypothetical scenario does not imply that a claim is not likely to be true. If you stick with this objection, then you have to apply the same standard to the rest of the Minecraft Wiki, too. This standard is not practical, especially since we can agree that most of the content is accurate.
I edited my post to cover this point. If it doesn't use the system clock, then what does it use?
There are other sources of entropy, but Java uses the clock as you suspected. It then uses an LCG to attempt to distribute the entropy equally across a finite set of numbers. I remember Minecraft using Java's default Random class in the past, but this could have changed by now.
public Random() { this(++seedUniquifier + System.nanoTime()); }
private static volatile long seedUniquifier = 8682522807148012L;
A computer exists solely in the realm of logics, so there is nothing truly random about it
There are certainly mathematical logic that includes probabilistic predicates and operators. In fact, many capture notions of general computation (ex. BPP and PP complexity classes). You are correct that deterministic computers cannot generate random bits themselves, but they can get them from elsewhere. Household computers are capable of this to a reasonable degree. There is specialized hardware (USB keys and PCI cards) that have the sole purpose of generating random numbers based on external noise. Finally, quantum computers use both randomness and entanglement to theoretically perform computations quicker. It is really as random as you can get as far as our understanding of physics is concerned.
You can't copyright a seed number. What you can do, however, is not tell anyone what the seed is... They'll still figure it out eventually, after having 18 quintillion wrong guesses.
Read a whole thread before responding on this again.
Everyone pretty much did post edits. The originality was terrain gen by the seed, now its the seed number as well seed copyright.
Almost any program that is designed to do random mathematical generation should use the system date/time as a base value of numbers to use unless otherwise another source is given or used.
Yeah. Extremely low chance, near impossible. Roughly equal, then, to the chance of pressing "create world" on the exact same millisecond, would you say?
No, because with a copyright, you can capitalize on the seed by preventing others from using it. According to Mojang's T/C, you cannot capitalize off of Minecraft or Minecraft assets.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Fermat »
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof of this, which this margin is too small to contain.
[;/quote]
Read a whole thread before responding on this again.
Everyone pretty much did post edits. The originality was terrain gen by the seed, now its the seed number as well seed copyright.
I screened every post at least two times before contributing. In doing so, I noticed that you pointed out that editing had occurred. I also observed that you were actually confused about topic and only realized this later. Up until CyberFlux posted (he still might not be guilty of the same), you were the only one that made this error. The edit you mentioned from IronMagus had no relation to your confusion. He edited to address the Wikipedia reliability issue. InfoTeddy's statement as you had quoted it, was, in essence, correct. Even if it was edited afterwards, your quote would not reflect that change. Since I respect his contribution, I responded to counteract your unfair objection, which you still choose not to retract.
To follow up on the copyright discussion. Keep in mind that international copyright protections differ from copyright law in the United States. There are many agreements and treaties that treat intellectual property disputes differently. Unfortunately, I do not have more to offer on this subject.
Anyways, I am not so sure on that. How could someone copyright a randomly generated world if it is RANDOMLY generated and can generate for anyone? So the question is, can someone copyright a randomly generated world seed on Minecraft? I highly doubt they can, but I am not sure which is why I am asking this question.
But actually, I heard that the random seed generating has to do with your computer time/day/month/year. So I guess seeds are rare…
lol/Rant/Whatever of the…!: Beyond: Two Souls is a sad/depressing game. Not like the ending of Mother 3 isn’t more sad.
Bogus, there is no such proof of that, nowhere, not even in the raw source code.
Your computers time has nothing to do with the seed. Every now and then when minecraft gets updated, the seeds do change though.
Really? How certain of that are you? Because it says on this page, twice even, that if no seed is input manually, then it will use the system time as the automatic seed.
Now I know the wiki isn't always correct; it can be edited by anyone, and is as error-prone as the humans who write the articles. But riddle me this, Batman. If you don't input a seed yourself, and if it doesn't use the system time, then what does it use? "A random number," you say, but then what does it use as the seed for the RNG (random number-generator) that generates that "random" number? Some other random number? But where does it get the seed for that one? And so on. At some point, it needs to take an input from an external source (perhaps the system clock, for example, after all), or else every "random" world would have the same seed as all the rest.
The seeds don't change, the algorithm does. The algorithm is a mathematical formula that the game uses to turn a numerical value (the seed) into an arrangement of blocks and biomes (the terrain features in a Minecraft world). A "seed" isn't the same thing as the world itself; the seed and the algorithm work together to generate the world. When the algorithm changes, then even using the same seed will output different results. I think that's probably what you were getting at, but it's not what you actually said.
Village Mechanics: A not-so-brief guide - Update 2017! Now with 1.8 breeding mechanics! Long-overdue trading info, coming soon!
You think magic isn't real? Consider this: for every person, there is a sentence -- a series of words -- which has the power to destroy them.
I edited my post to cover this point. If it doesn't use the system clock, then what does it use?
Village Mechanics: A not-so-brief guide - Update 2017! Now with 1.8 breeding mechanics! Long-overdue trading info, coming soon!
You think magic isn't real? Consider this: for every person, there is a sentence -- a series of words -- which has the power to destroy them.
Since all seem to be editing their posts. Generating a random seed uses many different variables, including time/date. But this is only for getting a seed number but nothing more there after. You can keep your system time the same, but still does not mean the same seed will be generated, the chance is insanely low to near impossible.
For awhile it was hard to tell if people was about terrain seed generation or just getting a seed number.
What you might have heard is how exactly a computer randomizes values.
A computer exists solely in the realm of logics, so there is nothing truly random about it, but the way a randomization function in languages such as C++ (And Java I should think) works, is by using ever changing variables such as your computers date and time to make the numbers it chooses appear random to generate a seed.
Using the seed, it then generates the world, which is all on Mojang.
Of course, in the case of you choosing your own seed, nothing is actually being randomized, since the randomization only happens before the seed is chosen.
And to answer the actual question, no of course you can not copyright a minecraft world seed.
1 line of Java:
Random rand = new Random();
I wasn't discussing syntax but yeah, thanks.
Yeah. Extremely low chance, near impossible. Roughly equal, then, to the chance of pressing "create world" on the exact same millisecond, would you say?
Village Mechanics: A not-so-brief guide - Update 2017! Now with 1.8 breeding mechanics! Long-overdue trading info, coming soon!
You think magic isn't real? Consider this: for every person, there is a sentence -- a series of words -- which has the power to destroy them.
Copyright is meant to protect creative works. Random numbers do not qualify, nor does this situation.
There are two exceptions I can think of: 1. Encryption keys for DRM and 2. A published book containing random numbers.
In both of these cases, the random number itself is not the protected work.
False
This is a ridiculous objection. If you want to confirm that this is not the case, look at the edit history. Presenting a single hypothetical scenario does not imply that a claim is not likely to be true. If you stick with this objection, then you have to apply the same standard to the rest of the Minecraft Wiki, too. This standard is not practical, especially since we can agree that most of the content is accurate.
There are other sources of entropy, but Java uses the clock as you suspected. It then uses an LCG to attempt to distribute the entropy equally across a finite set of numbers. I remember Minecraft using Java's default Random class in the past, but this could have changed by now.
Source: http://grepcode.com/...til/Random.java
There are certainly mathematical logic that includes probabilistic predicates and operators. In fact, many capture notions of general computation (ex. BPP and PP complexity classes). You are correct that deterministic computers cannot generate random bits themselves, but they can get them from elsewhere. Household computers are capable of this to a reasonable degree. There is specialized hardware (USB keys and PCI cards) that have the sole purpose of generating random numbers based on external noise. Finally, quantum computers use both randomness and entanglement to theoretically perform computations quicker. It is really as random as you can get as far as our understanding of physics is concerned.
Cubic Chunks mod: https://discord.gg/kMfWg9m
Mental Block server: https://discord.gg/AssnrXr
Read a whole thread before responding on this again.
Everyone pretty much did post edits. The originality was terrain gen by the seed, now its the seed number as well seed copyright.
Almost any program that is designed to do random mathematical generation should use the system date/time as a base value of numbers to use unless otherwise another source is given or used.
Correct.
I screened every post at least two times before contributing. In doing so, I noticed that you pointed out that editing had occurred. I also observed that you were actually confused about topic and only realized this later. Up until CyberFlux posted (he still might not be guilty of the same), you were the only one that made this error. The edit you mentioned from IronMagus had no relation to your confusion. He edited to address the Wikipedia reliability issue. InfoTeddy's statement as you had quoted it, was, in essence, correct. Even if it was edited afterwards, your quote would not reflect that change. Since I respect his contribution, I responded to counteract your unfair objection, which you still choose not to retract.
To follow up on the copyright discussion. Keep in mind that international copyright protections differ from copyright law in the United States. There are many agreements and treaties that treat intellectual property disputes differently. Unfortunately, I do not have more to offer on this subject.