you know, forget minecraft, and just look at the issue in general.
the problem here is that, despite your good intentions (giving you the benefit of the doubt here), the fact remains that you still took something that was not yours from someone who you did not ask of first. and come on guy, let's be real... the fact that you'd get to keep no-effort diamonds in the process certainly factored into your decision making. you're only human anyway.
I think you buddy has a right to be annoyed. it doesn't matter if you were just making space to improve efficiency; he did not ask you to do this, nor did you ask if you can or should. but hey... free diamonds!
let's be real ok? Ok.
EDIT: as for "not believing" that you stole, that is neither here nor there. fact is you stole. ignorance is never an excuse. try telling a police officer that you do not believe you were speeding. no really, try it.
This reminds me of an incident that happened on tekkit when I was playing with 2 other guys. I put a bit of cobblestone in a condenser by accident and.... well..... you can guess what happened.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To all of you people who think Notch is still working on the game, he stopped working on Minecraft in late 2011. Get your facts straight and stop spamming his twitter about Minecraft updates.
technically he stole, because he took with out asking. But he did tell the friend afterwards.
so if I understand this correctly, its like if i had a machine that made infinite money forever and someone took some of that money while I wasn't looking and then told me they took it later that day?
Obviously he's not your friend if he's upset over something like that. Actually, this sounds like something that would happen on a elementary school playground.
technically he stole, because he took with out asking. But he did tell the friend afterwards.
so if I understand this correctly, its like if i had a machine that made infinite money forever and someone took some of that money while I wasn't looking and then told me they took it later that day?
Obviously he's not your friend if he's upset over something like that. Actually, this sounds like something that would happen on a elementary school playground.
What you said. This is one of few threads to actually make me stop lurking and post, too.
I can't believe people are getting so uppity about this, and that this so called "friend" got so mad about this, not only because it's a damn game, but- no wait mostly because it's a damn game. People need to stop getting their panties in a ruffle over games. If it did not harm you, aside from sheer greed, what's the big deal?
Yeah, I'll go ahead and say it's stealing, but it should be a victimless crime, people shouldn't be getting so bent out of shape over it.
Well, return the diamonds of course. It's his stuff you took it from, and unless he said it's okay, you stole them. Doesn't matter if his duplicator is full or not.
Glad I don't have to deal with like that on my server
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Looking for a friendly community? Look no further, and join the BlockStackers! We run a Vanilla whitelisted server, a Feed The Beast server, and a Survival server with some twists.
This thread reeks of moral relatavism. This is the issue that occurs when society is no longer held to certain, pre-defined social norms. It begins to deteriorate as the concepts of right and wrong vanish like tears in the rain. This thread is a prime example of the direction of modern society.
[/end philosophy]
Clever OP is clever. You only quoted the least damning part of my post. Let me ask you this again, without anything else attached:
If you had a "million power flowers" (as you said previously), then WHY did you not use those to get diamonds instead of using your friend's? Futhermore, why did you not simply ask "Is it ok if I take some diamonds from your flower while you're not around?"
This thread reeks of moral relatavism. This is the issue that occurs when society is no longer held to certain, pre-defined social norms. It begins to deteriorate as the concepts of right and wrong vanish like tears in the rain. This thread is a prime example of the direction of modern society.
[/end philosophy]
Couldn't agree more. This is mostly a moral issue, since we'v now established that the OP 's friend didn't lose anything. I like the crop example. Is it okay to harvest another's grown crops, since they'll be grown aain by the time the owner gets back?
Clever OP is clever. You only quoted the least damning part of my post. Let me ask you this again, without anything else attached:
If you had a "million power flowers" (as you said previously), then WHY did you not use those to get diamonds instead of using your friend's? Futhermore, why did you not simply ask "Is it ok if I take some diamonds from your flower while you're not around?" The question has nothing to do with the problem. It doesn't matter how many PFs he had. It doesn't tter how many creepers he's killed. What matters is whether or not he stole, which is quickly becoming less a factual and definitive argument, but rather a moral one.
Oh yes, and good job for the other side. You're doing quite well.
The above message was to turn this into a friendly debate rather thana verbal bloodbath. Happy people?
This has gone on for 5 pages because it is a fascinating moral dillemna. The solution is muddled because of renewability, evidence, logic, morality, etc. It took me a few minutes of thought to decide on my position.
@Mr. DeathGuardian. The question has everything to do with the problem. If the good Doctor has indeed several power flowers (as he claimed), then why does he not program them to give diamonds, and use them for himself, rather than steal from his friend? If he was using ALL of them for something else, why does he not quickly convert them to diamonds, give X diamonds to his friend (where X is the number taken), and call it even?
I do agree that the question is also a moral one. Taken quite simply, stealing is "aqquiring something that belongs to another." As such, he has stolen. His friend may be overreacting...I won't deny that, but his friend is in the right. It is HIS machine and as such, he has a right to anything that is produced by it.
I recently moderated a similar difficulty on a server I play on. The owner was angry at a group of players (I am not part of them) who refused to let others use the blaze farm that the team had made. The farm was in the team's base, had been constructed by them, etc. The owner made the case that "If no one is using it, then why can't other members of the server go and use it? Why is only your team allowed to use it?"
The answer I gave (which ended the debate), was that since it was on the team's property and the team had made it, it was the property of the team. As such, they could decide what to do with it. Using their blaze farm would be the equivalent of taking bread from their chests. Bread is renewable, but it is their bread, their property.
I recently moderated a similar difficulty on a server I play on. The owner was angry at a group of players (I am not part of them) who refused to let others use the blaze farm that the team had made. The farm was in the team's base, had been constructed by them, etc. The owner made the case that "If no one is using it, then why can't other members of the server go and use it? Why is only your team allowed to use it?"
Going off on a tangent, a mob farm is fair use for everyone in my opinion, mobs renew themselves without effort required (you just have to stand there), whereas bread takes the farming of wheat. On my server I stop this from coming up at all, all mob spawners and xp farms are open to use by anyone, however if it's in someone's base and they want to use it, they take precedence over a "visitor". For the ones that aren't owned by anyone in particular, it's first come first serve.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Just give them back and stop fighting. Chances are he had wanted to save them for something. That being said, there's no need for him to react so angrily towards it. Just make up and get back to playing. Less drama, more blocks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Patience up to a point. Know your time, but work your wyrd always.”
Going off on a tangent, a mob farm is fair use for everyone in my opinion, mobs renew themselves without effort required (you just have to stand there), whereas bread takes the farming of wheat. On my server I stop this from coming up at all, all mob spawners and xp farms are open to use by anyone, however if it's in someone's base and they want to use it, they take precedence over a "visitor". For the ones that aren't owned by anyone in particular, it's first come first serve.
Going off on a tanget, a power flower is fair use for everyone in my opinion, diamonds renew themselves without effort required (you just have to stand there), whereas bread takes the farming of wheat. On my server I stop this from coming up at all, all power flowers are open to use by anyone, however if it's in someone's base and they want to use it, they take precedence over a "visitor." For the ones that aren't owned by anyone in particular, it's first come first serve.
See the issue? It's the same logic that the good Doctor is using. The Doctor is correct logically speaking, and at first I concurred with his hypothesis. However, upon further contemplation of the dillemna, I realized that morally speaking, his friend is correct. Did his friend overreact? Yes. Should the Doctor have simply avoided the issue by using his OWN power flowers? Yes.
It doesn't matter that it's renewable. The Doctor technically stole, and as such, is technically in the wrong. The issue has been blown out of proportion, but the basis, the core of the matter is still intact. He stole. End of story.
If you had a "million power flowers" (as you said previously), then WHY did you not use those to get diamonds instead of using your friend's? Futhermore, why did you not simply ask "Is it ok if I take some diamonds from your flower while you're not around?"
I do, in fact, I condense RM furnaces(they have a super high EMC value) so that the chest never fills. I have 16 of these flowers that are getting pumped from going into 1 main chest. Now, money is not the issue, it's about who has the correct logic.
I do, in fact, I condense RM furnaces(they have a super high EMC value) so that the chest never fills. I have 16 of these flowers that are getting pumped from going into 1 main chest. Now, money is not the issue, it's about who has the correct logic.
If money is not the issue, and if you have 16 power flowers that could all concievably be turned into diamond creators, then why praytell, did you choose to take another man's diamonds?
Now then, if we are logical, we can see that even though you did use some of his EMC and did take diamonds, we know that the diamonds are renewable and that the EMC is essentially infinite (because Tekkit is broken). It would be perfectly logical for most of us to just grab a few of the infinite resource for our use. It's like taking a few melons from someone's farm, right?
The issue is that he took offence, and since it is his property, his machine, and his diamonds, he is correct. You stole. The solution is simple. Hurl the diamonds back in his face, power up your power flowers, and poop out infinite diamonds for yourself. If he's going to complain about you taking diamonds, go ahead and make more diamonds than he has, and keep them for yourself. That'll show him.
Your last line is what's funny about all this. You're trying to use your flawed logic to address an issue that isn't 100% logical. This case is moral and even emotional. Not purely logical.
See the issue? It's the same logic that the good Doctor is using. The Doctor is correct logically speaking, and at first I concurred with his hypothesis. However, upon further contemplation of the dillemna, I realized that morally speaking, his friend is correct. Did his friend overreact? Yes. Should the Doctor have simply avoided the issue by using his OWN power flowers? Yes.
It doesn't matter that it's renewable. The Doctor technically stole, and as such, is technically in the wrong. The issue has been blown out of proportion, but the basis, the core of the matter is still intact. He stole. End of story.
When a tree falls in the forest, but nobody is around to hear it, did it really fall?
That's what it boils down to. While I agree that it's not the right thing to take the diamonds out of the machine, a mob farm is different in the sense that even if you kill a million mobs and leave, the next time someone shows up, there's no waiting around for them to spawn - they'll start right away, and that person too can kill a bazillion mobs.
The power flowers are different in the sense that there's a given amount of stuff that comes out in a given amount of time - so if someone empties it and you show up 5 minutes later, you will be "missing" things. With mob spawners you don't have that issue, which is why I brought it up.
It's fine talking about morals, but no situation is ever black and white.
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I can see OP's logic, but it is flawed. What's interesting is how your friend was making diamonds instead of something more valuable. I personally think that you should of said that you had improved his machines efficiency by removing a backlog of diamonds. You could have then proposed to split the diamonds 50/50, otherwise you would throw them away(Presuming diamonds had restocked). If you'd split 50/50 then you had done a deal with his permission. If he hadn't of accepted then you could have thrown them away saying that without me they wouldn't exist so let's emulate the outcome of me not removing the diamonds. I'm just going to point out that it seems that the person with the flower power just didn't want someone else to have what he had, he had to be the one with the diamonds. In this case scenario 2 is more likely, as he will want to have the majority of diamonds.
When a tree falls in the forest, but nobody is around to hear it, did it really fall?
It's fine talking about morals, but no situation is ever black and white.
"When a tree falls in the forest" tells me that it really fell. That was a bad attempt at philosophy. Try this one instead: "Is death a state of being or an occurence?"
A man teaches about friendship, kindness and goodwill. He never does anything bad. Then he gets killed violently by angry people. There are a few black and white situations. They are just few and far between.
Instead of discussing tangents and using analogies, let's go back to the main point: The OP stole from someone, when he didn't have to. The fact that he has 16 flowers of power (or whatever lame name they have) is enough to tell me that the good Doctor has sufficient capability to produce his own diamonds. If his friend wants his diamonds back, the Doctor should be more than capable of doing so.
I am in aww of this topic. I understand the thought process behind the OP's action. There was a time when I would have agreed with him. Not now. So many of the responses here are its just a game, screw him or if he is mad he will get over it, or a real friend would not get mad type of responses.
In my opinion, its about character.
It matters not that they were replaced, it matters not that he was not "hurt" or no loss was applied. The heart of the argument here is character. Luke 6:31 tells us "Just as you want others to do for you, do the same for them." This is in the context of love your enemies. Jesus goes on to say : 32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do what is good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? # Even sinners lend to sinners to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do what is good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is gracious to the ungrateful and evil. 36Be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
So here we have a situation where your you went into your friends area and took something that was not yours. I know it is just a game, but I say... uhm... this is a buddy, and when no one was looking, you took from him. And now, lets be honest, you are just looking for people here to say, " its ok buddy" Well, the fact of the matter is its not.
The proper way to have handled this would have been to ask your friend if he , when he was away, was cool with you getting the diamonds. If he said yes, then , cool you are good to go. If he says no, then cool, you you know you are not welcome to do it. Can you still do it when he is not around and no one is looking, well, yes, but again that would be showing your character. Even if he is dead wrong, show him love by respecting his wishes.
Now, in this case, you did it, it bothered him, he told you. The right way to respond is to apologize and return it. That's what a Man would do. A Man would not argue and justify his actions, a Man would say, "Thats cool, I thought you would be OK with it, but you are not, so here are your diamonds back."
I know it is just a game, However, if you show character here in this situation, if you learn to respond in this manner in these little situations, it will make all the difference in the world when the bigger things happen.
It's like training to play basketball, practice, practice, practice, practice. It teaches us muscle memory. When Jordan, ( I'M showing my age) would do one of those crazy instant reaction amazing moves, its because he has taught his body, his muscles hi mind to react that way all on its own. The same goes for how we deal with situations in life, teach your mind to react this way on its own.
Aaaamd back a page later. Nice points ya'll, doing fine.
Back down to business.
@Delthyn's points: I see what you're saying here, with the "Why take his if you have your own" thing. Unfortunately, I don't think that's the issue. The issue is, once again, whether or not it is okay to take those diamonds. All outside factors are irrelevant. It's like standing under a mob farm, collecting dorp swhile AFK. Your inventory gets full, and the drops around you start vanishing after 5 minutes. I come along and collect them until my inventory is full too. You lose nothing, I gain. Commensalism symbiotic. You all talk as if Doctor were a parasite, sucking away resources, when in truth he is not.
To those complaining abou this going on for so long, think not about the petty issue, but of the dilemma. This is a fascinating and amazing moral topic, and I for one love thinking about it. Hang around, get some popcorn, who knows where this'll go?
To Nashulee, I find myself very hesitent to argue, simply because I'll probably get slammed for heresey or something. So I'll say this as a disclaimer, I in no way claim the Bible to be truth nor lie, and all I say here is simply in response to the examples and comparisons. I think that covers everything. Ahem.
"Just as you want others to do for you, do the same for them." Personally, I don't see what's wrong with other gaining from you so long as you lose nothing. In a sense, by following this rule you encourage them both to gain without either of them ever losing, turning it from commensalism into full symbiosis(Forgot the more correct term).: 32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do what is good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? # Even sinners lend to sinners to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do what is good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is gracious to the ungrateful and evil. 36Be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. And now the part that worries me. Forgive me for this, but I don't see how the rest of that scripture is applicable. There is no instance of helping those who help you, nor any of the other examples. I'm inevitably missing something blatantly obvious, so please point it out to me in that case.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
At a loss for words? Here's a few you can use: Welcome, to Night Vale...
the problem here is that, despite your good intentions (giving you the benefit of the doubt here), the fact remains that you still took something that was not yours from someone who you did not ask of first. and come on guy, let's be real... the fact that you'd get to keep no-effort diamonds in the process certainly factored into your decision making. you're only human anyway.
I think you buddy has a right to be annoyed. it doesn't matter if you were just making space to improve efficiency; he did not ask you to do this, nor did you ask if you can or should. but hey... free diamonds!
let's be real ok? Ok.
EDIT: as for "not believing" that you stole, that is neither here nor there. fact is you stole. ignorance is never an excuse. try telling a police officer that you do not believe you were speeding. no really, try it.
so if I understand this correctly, its like if i had a machine that made infinite money forever and someone took some of that money while I wasn't looking and then told me they took it later that day?
Obviously he's not your friend if he's upset over something like that. Actually, this sounds like something that would happen on a elementary school playground.
What you said. This is one of few threads to actually make me stop lurking and post, too.
I can't believe people are getting so uppity about this, and that this so called "friend" got so mad about this, not only because it's a damn game, but- no wait mostly because it's a damn game. People need to stop getting their panties in a ruffle over games. If it did not harm you, aside from sheer greed, what's the big deal?
Yeah, I'll go ahead and say it's stealing, but it should be a victimless crime, people shouldn't be getting so bent out of shape over it.
Glad I don't have to deal with like that on my server
[/end philosophy]
Clever OP is clever. You only quoted the least damning part of my post. Let me ask you this again, without anything else attached:
If you had a "million power flowers" (as you said previously), then WHY did you not use those to get diamonds instead of using your friend's? Futhermore, why did you not simply ask "Is it ok if I take some diamonds from your flower while you're not around?"
@Mr. DeathGuardian. The question has everything to do with the problem. If the good Doctor has indeed several power flowers (as he claimed), then why does he not program them to give diamonds, and use them for himself, rather than steal from his friend? If he was using ALL of them for something else, why does he not quickly convert them to diamonds, give X diamonds to his friend (where X is the number taken), and call it even?
I do agree that the question is also a moral one. Taken quite simply, stealing is "aqquiring something that belongs to another." As such, he has stolen. His friend may be overreacting...I won't deny that, but his friend is in the right. It is HIS machine and as such, he has a right to anything that is produced by it.
I recently moderated a similar difficulty on a server I play on. The owner was angry at a group of players (I am not part of them) who refused to let others use the blaze farm that the team had made. The farm was in the team's base, had been constructed by them, etc. The owner made the case that "If no one is using it, then why can't other members of the server go and use it? Why is only your team allowed to use it?"
The answer I gave (which ended the debate), was that since it was on the team's property and the team had made it, it was the property of the team. As such, they could decide what to do with it. Using their blaze farm would be the equivalent of taking bread from their chests. Bread is renewable, but it is their bread, their property.
TL;DR: Property rights trump all.
Going off on a tangent, a mob farm is fair use for everyone in my opinion, mobs renew themselves without effort required (you just have to stand there), whereas bread takes the farming of wheat. On my server I stop this from coming up at all, all mob spawners and xp farms are open to use by anyone, however if it's in someone's base and they want to use it, they take precedence over a "visitor". For the ones that aren't owned by anyone in particular, it's first come first serve.
“Patience up to a point. Know your time, but work your wyrd always.”
Going off on a tanget, a power flower is fair use for everyone in my opinion, diamonds renew themselves without effort required (you just have to stand there), whereas bread takes the farming of wheat. On my server I stop this from coming up at all, all power flowers are open to use by anyone, however if it's in someone's base and they want to use it, they take precedence over a "visitor." For the ones that aren't owned by anyone in particular, it's first come first serve.
See the issue? It's the same logic that the good Doctor is using. The Doctor is correct logically speaking, and at first I concurred with his hypothesis. However, upon further contemplation of the dillemna, I realized that morally speaking, his friend is correct. Did his friend overreact? Yes. Should the Doctor have simply avoided the issue by using his OWN power flowers? Yes.
It doesn't matter that it's renewable. The Doctor technically stole, and as such, is technically in the wrong. The issue has been blown out of proportion, but the basis, the core of the matter is still intact. He stole. End of story.
I do, in fact, I condense RM furnaces(they have a super high EMC value) so that the chest never fills. I have 16 of these flowers that are getting pumped from going into 1 main chest. Now, money is not the issue, it's about who has the correct logic.
Proud member of spigotmc.org.
If money is not the issue, and if you have 16 power flowers that could all concievably be turned into diamond creators, then why praytell, did you choose to take another man's diamonds?
Now then, if we are logical, we can see that even though you did use some of his EMC and did take diamonds, we know that the diamonds are renewable and that the EMC is essentially infinite (because Tekkit is broken). It would be perfectly logical for most of us to just grab a few of the infinite resource for our use. It's like taking a few melons from someone's farm, right?
The issue is that he took offence, and since it is his property, his machine, and his diamonds, he is correct. You stole. The solution is simple. Hurl the diamonds back in his face, power up your power flowers, and poop out infinite diamonds for yourself. If he's going to complain about you taking diamonds, go ahead and make more diamonds than he has, and keep them for yourself. That'll show him.
Your last line is what's funny about all this. You're trying to use your flawed logic to address an issue that isn't 100% logical. This case is moral and even emotional. Not purely logical.
When a tree falls in the forest, but nobody is around to hear it, did it really fall?
That's what it boils down to. While I agree that it's not the right thing to take the diamonds out of the machine, a mob farm is different in the sense that even if you kill a million mobs and leave, the next time someone shows up, there's no waiting around for them to spawn - they'll start right away, and that person too can kill a bazillion mobs.
The power flowers are different in the sense that there's a given amount of stuff that comes out in a given amount of time - so if someone empties it and you show up 5 minutes later, you will be "missing" things. With mob spawners you don't have that issue, which is why I brought it up.
It's fine talking about morals, but no situation is ever black and white.
"When a tree falls in the forest" tells me that it really fell. That was a bad attempt at philosophy. Try this one instead: "Is death a state of being or an occurence?"
A man teaches about friendship, kindness and goodwill. He never does anything bad. Then he gets killed violently by angry people. There are a few black and white situations. They are just few and far between.
Instead of discussing tangents and using analogies, let's go back to the main point: The OP stole from someone, when he didn't have to. The fact that he has 16 flowers of power (or whatever lame name they have) is enough to tell me that the good Doctor has sufficient capability to produce his own diamonds. If his friend wants his diamonds back, the Doctor should be more than capable of doing so.
In my opinion, its about character.
It matters not that they were replaced, it matters not that he was not "hurt" or no loss was applied. The heart of the argument here is character. Luke 6:31 tells us "Just as you want others to do for you, do the same for them." This is in the context of love your enemies. Jesus goes on to say : 32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do what is good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? # Even sinners lend to sinners to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do what is good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is gracious to the ungrateful and evil. 36Be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
So here we have a situation where your you went into your friends area and took something that was not yours. I know it is just a game, but I say... uhm... this is a buddy, and when no one was looking, you took from him. And now, lets be honest, you are just looking for people here to say, " its ok buddy" Well, the fact of the matter is its not.
The proper way to have handled this would have been to ask your friend if he , when he was away, was cool with you getting the diamonds. If he said yes, then , cool you are good to go. If he says no, then cool, you you know you are not welcome to do it. Can you still do it when he is not around and no one is looking, well, yes, but again that would be showing your character. Even if he is dead wrong, show him love by respecting his wishes.
Now, in this case, you did it, it bothered him, he told you. The right way to respond is to apologize and return it. That's what a Man would do. A Man would not argue and justify his actions, a Man would say, "Thats cool, I thought you would be OK with it, but you are not, so here are your diamonds back."
I know it is just a game, However, if you show character here in this situation, if you learn to respond in this manner in these little situations, it will make all the difference in the world when the bigger things happen.
It's like training to play basketball, practice, practice, practice, practice. It teaches us muscle memory. When Jordan, ( I'M showing my age) would do one of those crazy instant reaction amazing moves, its because he has taught his body, his muscles hi mind to react that way all on its own. The same goes for how we deal with situations in life, teach your mind to react this way on its own.
Back down to business.
@Delthyn's points: I see what you're saying here, with the "Why take his if you have your own" thing. Unfortunately, I don't think that's the issue. The issue is, once again, whether or not it is okay to take those diamonds. All outside factors are irrelevant. It's like standing under a mob farm, collecting dorp swhile AFK. Your inventory gets full, and the drops around you start vanishing after 5 minutes. I come along and collect them until my inventory is full too. You lose nothing, I gain. Commensalism symbiotic. You all talk as if Doctor were a parasite, sucking away resources, when in truth he is not.
To those complaining abou this going on for so long, think not about the petty issue, but of the dilemma. This is a fascinating and amazing moral topic, and I for one love thinking about it. Hang around, get some popcorn, who knows where this'll go?
To Nashulee, I find myself very hesitent to argue, simply because I'll probably get slammed for heresey or something. So I'll say this as a disclaimer, I in no way claim the Bible to be truth nor lie, and all I say here is simply in response to the examples and comparisons. I think that covers everything. Ahem.