The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
Join Date:
3/30/2011
Posts:
60
Minecraft:
AFragileLlama
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I'm (barely) running this game even remotely "smoothly" (22fps, ftw!) on my pos dinosaur 500MB of RAM and single core 3.00 GHZ Pentium 4 (it's an IBM M52, and a big giant steaming turd), and I couldn't care less if it runs on Java. I personally feel it would be a pain in the butt to rewrite the entire game, and if my craptastic dinosaur can run it at 22fps (that's got to be an achievement), I'm fine with Java.
Last time i checked, the customer controls Notch's paycheck, and if the majority of the users out there are getting shitty FPS, porting to C++ would only help him AND us. Nobody likes low fps resulting from a bad language for 3D games. its almost like trying to run Crysis on a comp with 1gb of ram and a shitty video card
I'm sorry, but what? You paid for the product. The product is created in java and still in the process of being created. Java can be just as good as C++ if you know how to optimize the code. You knew the game is going to become unstable at certain times (it's labeled beta for a reason). I agree that no one likes low fps, however just because you don't want to update your rig doesn't mean the game doesn't work.
Also, if you people think that the game will be magically faster in C. It will not. Notch will have to rewrite the entire thing, and even if it is in C++ you still need a decent computer to run it. There still will be bugs in the game. With every update, the game will slow down.
Look i see it this way IDGAF if it's in Java or C++. i only care about whether or not my computer can run the game at atleast normal render. anyways i dont have $900+ to waste to upgrade a $15 game. If notch is smart, he will cater this game towards everyone, and allow it to be run on the type of computers most people have [ie] by doing this he will open this amazing game to everyone. the amount of money Notch pays a specialized graphics coder will probably double or better in his profits.[/quote]
Hey there, cool down. You wouldn't want to burn yourself.
Your first post was absolutely nonresponsive to every single point I made. You claimed then in your next post that you had bolded the word "if" in your arguments, then proceeded to couch every argument you made as if you were cloaked in the veneer of the majority.
Now, this piece of work: if you "DGAF if it's in Java or C++," then why are you commenting in a thread that requires knowledge of programming to make an educated opinion? That's not me trolling, flaming, or denigrating you; by the same token, I wouldn't presume to tell an engineer how to build his bridge better if I didn't have a degree in engineering, then turn around and say I "DGAF about how it was built so long as my car could drive across it."
And again, if you read my post: stop talking about your computer as if it were a monolithic contraption that must necessarily be able to run a program based on its specs. I work cross-platform extensively and don't care to make a judgment as to which operating system is better, but i have observed that most Windows users fail to regularly maintain or check their computers, resulting in performance degradation.
If you took the time to read other posts, you would see that many people can run this game on machines with specs equivalent or less than your own without any problems.
You also completely missed the part about Mojang presently prioritizing features over optimization. That's their call, and while you may say "I'm a consumer, I have the right to complain!", I have no doubt you are of the group that complained about updates in the past and forced them into an accelerated timetable.
Also, please read technical reasons listed above and in every other post as to why the purpose of this thread is moot without an understanding of how and why languages function.[/quote]
umadbro? the reason IDGAF (i know you love taht abbreviation) about which language it is in is because honestly it shouldnt matter, because as long as that bridge get me across the river without me dying, i dont care what its made out of or how its made. you could say im uneducated about the languages, but u could also say i know enough about both to form the opinion that they both, have their strengths and weaknesses, but in my opinion, minecraft would be better suited to use C++, and it would be beneficial in the long run.
@Tyber: There you have it. It is possible to have Vista running smoothly, but by default it uses a lot more overhead than most other operating systems. Also: the computer linked probably can play Minecraft, but I wouldn't vouch for it running well. There are a few good computers though with powerful i3 procs and good graphics, if you need a hand.
@golfboy: Congrats for missing the sarcasm on quoting "DGAF," but here, have a cookie! You have an (unfounded) opinion! :smile.gif:
Who said anything about being able to play crisis? You can buy a pretty cheap laptop that can run minecraft. Look you can buy one for 500 dollars. About half of what I would pay for gaming PC and you still be able to run minecraft on fancy/far.
Is that actually good?or r u trollin My parents informed me they were to buy me a new computer/laptop for myself soon.
Well if I was going to buy a laptop, I probly do my research on the computer I was buying. That computer does have a better specs than my current laptop and my laptop can run minecraft on fancy/far without any problems. A laptop is generally more expensive than a desktop. So you might actually be able to save more money by looking for all-in-one desktops. Simply because they're not trying to cram high end hardware into a tiny case. Plus you wouldn't have to worry about it overheating.
Heck, you might be able to buy a computer at wal-mart and could run minecraft. The things you need to look at is at least a 2ghz processor (dual core is a bonus), 2gbs of ram (might be able to settle for 1, but ram is dirt cheap), and a fast spinning hard drive (I got 7200rpm, and it loads things fast). I'm not sure about a video card, but it be safer if you had a dedicated (not integrated) video card. That way you can upgrade it when you need to.
I'm (barely) running this game even remotely "smoothly" (22fps, ftw!) on my pos dinosaur 500MB of RAM and single core 3.00 GHZ Pentium 4 (it's an IBM M52, and a big giant steaming turd), and I couldn't care less if it runs on Java. I personally feel it would be a pain in the butt to rewrite the entire game, and if my craptastic dinosaur can run it at 22fps (that's got to be an achievement), I'm fine with Java.
Also sorry for the double post, but how the hell are you managing that? o_0 My testbed computer with a Pentium M dual core @ 1.73 GHz and 1.5GB DDR2 is lucky to get 9.
Who said anything about being able to play crisis? You can buy a pretty cheap laptop that can run minecraft. Look you can buy one for 500 dollars. About half of what I would pay for gaming PC and you still be able to run minecraft on fancy/far.
Is that actually good?or r u trollin My parents informed me they were to buy me a new computer/laptop for myself soon.
Well if I was going to buy a laptop, I probly do my research on the computer I was buying. That computer does have a better specs than my current laptop and my laptop can run minecraft on fancy/far without any problems. A laptop is generally more expensive than a desktop. So you might actually be able to save more money by looking for all-in-one desktops. Simply because they're not trying to cram high end hardware into a tiny case. Plus you wouldn't have to worry about it overheating.
Heck, you might be able to buy a computer at wal-mart and could run minecraft. The things you need to look at is at least a 2ghz processor (dual core is a bonus), 2gbs of ram (might be able to settle for 1, but ram is dirt cheap), and a fast spinning hard drive (I got 7200rpm, and it loads things fast). I'm not sure about a video card, but it be safer if you had a dedicated (not integrated) video card. That way you can upgrade it when you need to.
Actually, with the new Sandy Bridge cores, a dedicated card is not a must, but very useful. I'm not so certain as to the difference between a 7,200 RPM and 5,400 RPM HDD for Minecraft though. I would question whether or not that compy can pump out fancy/far though, at least not beyond 20 fps or so.
Also: Minecraft's not optimized for multicore, and it'll only use one: look for higher values with "GHz" after it to make your decision, or buy an i3 or i5 with turbo boost.
I'm (barely) running this game even remotely "smoothly" (22fps, ftw!) on my pos dinosaur 500MB of RAM and single core 3.00 GHZ Pentium 4 (it's an IBM M52, and a big giant steaming turd), and I couldn't care less if it runs on Java. I personally feel it would be a pain in the butt to rewrite the entire game, and if my craptastic dinosaur can run it at 22fps (that's got to be an achievement), I'm fine with Java.
Also sorry for the double post, but how the hell are you managing that? o_0 My testbed computer with a Pentium M dual core @ 1.73 GHz and 1.5GB DDR2 is lucky to get 9.
Because minecraft is more processing intensive than memory useage.
yep. Converting to c++ and making it a compiled exe would be a great idea. first, it's going to solve lag issues 100%, secondly, the code would be safe from piracy. Downsides? Modding will be impossible without an api except for maybe texture packs.
Also, converting java to c++ isn't that difficult. Maybe for minecraft it is, however, I can't even imagine how big it is.
well i don't have a problem with FPS... because i have 8 Gb RAM on a 3.5 Ghz Hex-core... so notch will have to add like 5 times what the game is right now to slow it down...
PS: i have a 98 Mb world that runs at 250 FPS
and just thought of this... is minecraft multi-core optimized?
I'm (barely) running this game even remotely "smoothly" (22fps, ftw!) on my pos dinosaur 500MB of RAM and single core 3.00 GHZ Pentium 4 (it's an IBM M52, and a big giant steaming turd), and I couldn't care less if it runs on Java. I personally feel it would be a pain in the butt to rewrite the entire game, and if my craptastic dinosaur can run it at 22fps (that's got to be an achievement), I'm fine with Java.
Also sorry for the double post, but how the hell are you managing that? o_0 My testbed computer with a Pentium M dual core @ 1.73 GHz and 1.5GB DDR2 is lucky to get 9.
O im SOO sorry to hear that your having trouble with your frame rate on a normal computers...i know what could make that better...but you probably dont want to hear it because im to stupid to form my own opinion.
The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
Join Date:
3/30/2011
Posts:
60
Minecraft:
AFragileLlama
Member Details
Quote from GunboatDebater »
Quote from AFragileLlama »
I'm (barely) running this game even remotely "smoothly" (22fps, ftw!) on my pos dinosaur 500MB of RAM and single core 3.00 GHZ Pentium 4 (it's an IBM M52, and a big giant steaming turd), and I couldn't care less if it runs on Java. I personally feel it would be a pain in the butt to rewrite the entire game, and if my craptastic dinosaur can run it at 22fps (that's got to be an achievement), I'm fine with Java.
Also sorry for the double post, but how the hell are you managing that? o_0 My testbed computer with a Pentium M dual core @ 1.73 GHz and 1.5GB DDR2 is lucky to get 9.
22fps is if I stay in one fully loaded chunk and don't do much asides from twiddle my thumbs. If I do anything it goes to like, 7-13ish.
Fair enough, but wasn't there a substantial change between the Pentium 4 to M in architecture? I don't intend to ever buy anything with a Pentium at this point, but I'd feel bad if your Pentium 4 was more efficient than the M.
That, or I'm quoting something claiming clock speed's not as important anymore. o_0
@Golfboy: If you read my post, you'd note the word "testbed," i.e. not main. :tongue.gif: Fail troll.
It's nice to know that so many coding experts are weighing in on this. *sigh*
Yes, it is true that for hardware intensive things, Java is limited by the need for a virtual machine and an intermediary between the application and the hardware when compared to OS supported, direct to hardware languages like C++, but that is a lot more applicable to games with billions of particles and polygons being cycled every second, with adaptive lighting constantly going on, a physics engine that is slightly complex, and, importantly, depth of field and motion blurr modifiers.
Things that take graphics power certainly shouldn't be working out of Java, but Java is sufficient for Minecraft's goals, I think.
Plus, it won't be long before a competitor in Minecraft's (new)genre comes out sporting native-os code, a better concept, and better implementation with wonderful graphics.
one thing I've virtually never seen when people complain about low framerate is what resolution they use. I know that on borderline hardware, just changing that can make a huge difference.
that said, I get about 18-30 FPS (highly variable) most of the time in a maximized window (1366x746 game size) on a $300 laptop (not netbook) running:
AMD Sempron M120 single core, 2.1Ghz
ATI Mobility Radion 4200
3GB DDR2 RAM (single channel)
250GB 7200RPM hard disk drive
it sometimes stutters, but is often very playable unless you have trouble dealing with framerates lower then 60 for some reason..never understood that..
on the system I'm using, minecraft runs fine as is.
It will definitely run better if he went for another Programming Language. Java hogs resources, to tell you the truth, it doesn't really matter to me whether he goes and takes a few months to convert it all now or after final release. I would just like to see it one day not written in Java
It will definitely run better if he went for another Programming Language. Java hogs resources, to tell you the truth, it doesn't really matter to me whether he goes and takes a few months to convert it all now or after final release. I would just like to see it one day not written in Java
At the risk of sounding trolly: Mojang's made the decision to go with Java, and if you don't want it in Java, then get a mod or team and reimplement it in C yourself. I'm willing to hazard it would take longer than a few months at teh current pace.
People should just probably face the fact that it's time to upgrade their computers. Coding something to C++ as someone said earlier, it won't just make the game run MAGICALLY faster on your PC. I tried running Minecraft on my old outdated laptop. It was an old HP with a Turion 64 X2 @ 1.6 GHz with like 1 gb of ram and a bad gpu. Not playable at all, but I can run San Andreas on there very well. It's also because the game hasn't been optimized to its potential. But on my other 2 high end gaming PC's. It runs very well. I don't really care though if it's left on Java. I like the cross platform that's happening on Java. Although Minecraft does indeed look like one of those Nintendo 64 games, it's very sophisticated. It's like basically a CoD BlackOps with a graphics cover up on it. That's also another thing that people don't seem to notice.
So why is there no option for thinking it should stay in java.
Reasons why it'll stay java.
1) Modding is painless and universal
2) The game can run just about any computer with the right specs
3) Notch is much more experienced in java
4) C/C++ is nice for games that have high end graphics. Minecraft isn't graphical
5) While it is true that it would be faster to process in native machine language. Java is just easier to program for and Minecraft still needs to be optimized (the game is still a work in progress).
Look i see it this way IDGAF if it's in Java or C++. i only care about whether or not my computer can run the game at atleast normal render. anyways i dont have $900+ to waste to upgrade a $15 game. If notch is smart, he will cater this game towards everyone, and allow it to be run on the type of computers most people have [ie] by doing this he will open this amazing game to everyone. the amount of money Notch pays a specialized graphics coder will probably double or better in his profits.[/quote]
Hey there, cool down. You wouldn't want to burn yourself.
Your first post was absolutely nonresponsive to every single point I made. You claimed then in your next post that you had bolded the word "if" in your arguments, then proceeded to couch every argument you made as if you were cloaked in the veneer of the majority.
Now, this piece of work: if you "DGAF if it's in Java or C++," then why are you commenting in a thread that requires knowledge of programming to make an educated opinion? That's not me trolling, flaming, or denigrating you; by the same token, I wouldn't presume to tell an engineer how to build his bridge better if I didn't have a degree in engineering, then turn around and say I "DGAF about how it was built so long as my car could drive across it."
And again, if you read my post: stop talking about your computer as if it were a monolithic contraption that must necessarily be able to run a program based on its specs. I work cross-platform extensively and don't care to make a judgment as to which operating system is better, but i have observed that most Windows users fail to regularly maintain or check their computers, resulting in performance degradation.
If you took the time to read other posts, you would see that many people can run this game on machines with specs equivalent or less than your own without any problems.
You also completely missed the part about Mojang presently prioritizing features over optimization. That's their call, and while you may say "I'm a consumer, I have the right to complain!", I have no doubt you are of the group that complained about updates in the past and forced them into an accelerated timetable.
Also, please read technical reasons listed above and in every other post as to why the purpose of this thread is moot without an understanding of how and why languages function.[/quote]
umadbro? the reason IDGAF (i know you love taht abbreviation) about which language it is in is because honestly it shouldnt matter, because as long as that bridge get me across the river without me dying, i dont care what its made out of or how its made. you could say im uneducated about the languages, but u could also say i know enough about both to form the opinion that they both, have their strengths and weaknesses, but in my opinion, minecraft would be better suited to use C++, and it would be beneficial in the long run.
@golfboy: Congrats for missing the sarcasm on quoting "DGAF," but here, have a cookie! You have an (unfounded) opinion! :smile.gif:
Well if I was going to buy a laptop, I probly do my research on the computer I was buying. That computer does have a better specs than my current laptop and my laptop can run minecraft on fancy/far without any problems. A laptop is generally more expensive than a desktop. So you might actually be able to save more money by looking for all-in-one desktops. Simply because they're not trying to cram high end hardware into a tiny case. Plus you wouldn't have to worry about it overheating.
Heck, you might be able to buy a computer at wal-mart and could run minecraft. The things you need to look at is at least a 2ghz processor (dual core is a bonus), 2gbs of ram (might be able to settle for 1, but ram is dirt cheap), and a fast spinning hard drive (I got 7200rpm, and it loads things fast). I'm not sure about a video card, but it be safer if you had a dedicated (not integrated) video card. That way you can upgrade it when you need to.
Also sorry for the double post, but how the hell are you managing that? o_0 My testbed computer with a Pentium M dual core @ 1.73 GHz and 1.5GB DDR2 is lucky to get 9.
Actually, with the new Sandy Bridge cores, a dedicated card is not a must, but very useful. I'm not so certain as to the difference between a 7,200 RPM and 5,400 RPM HDD for Minecraft though. I would question whether or not that compy can pump out fancy/far though, at least not beyond 20 fps or so.
Also: Minecraft's not optimized for multicore, and it'll only use one: look for higher values with "GHz" after it to make your decision, or buy an i3 or i5 with turbo boost.
Because minecraft is more processing intensive than memory useage.
Also, converting java to c++ isn't that difficult. Maybe for minecraft it is, however, I can't even imagine how big it is.
PS: i have a 98 Mb world that runs at 250 FPS
and just thought of this... is minecraft multi-core optimized?
O im SOO sorry to hear that your having trouble with your frame rate on a normal computers...i know what could make that better...but you probably dont want to hear it because im to stupid to form my own opinion.
22fps is if I stay in one fully loaded chunk and don't do much asides from twiddle my thumbs. If I do anything it goes to like, 7-13ish.
That, or I'm quoting something claiming clock speed's not as important anymore. o_0
@Golfboy: If you read my post, you'd note the word "testbed," i.e. not main. :tongue.gif: Fail troll.
Yes, it is true that for hardware intensive things, Java is limited by the need for a virtual machine and an intermediary between the application and the hardware when compared to OS supported, direct to hardware languages like C++, but that is a lot more applicable to games with billions of particles and polygons being cycled every second, with adaptive lighting constantly going on, a physics engine that is slightly complex, and, importantly, depth of field and motion blurr modifiers.
Things that take graphics power certainly shouldn't be working out of Java, but Java is sufficient for Minecraft's goals, I think.
Plus, it won't be long before a competitor in Minecraft's (new)genre comes out sporting native-os code, a better concept, and better implementation with wonderful graphics.
EDIT: Setting core affinity is a virtue.
that said, I get about 18-30 FPS (highly variable) most of the time in a maximized window (1366x746 game size) on a $300 laptop (not netbook) running:
AMD Sempron M120 single core, 2.1Ghz
ATI Mobility Radion 4200
3GB DDR2 RAM (single channel)
250GB 7200RPM hard disk drive
it sometimes stutters, but is often very playable unless you have trouble dealing with framerates lower then 60 for some reason..never understood that..
on the system I'm using, minecraft runs fine as is.
At the risk of sounding trolly: Mojang's made the decision to go with Java, and if you don't want it in Java, then get a mod or team and reimplement it in C yourself. I'm willing to hazard it would take longer than a few months at teh current pace.
@Golfboy: Trololololol!
Option number one is Totally do it!
Option number two is Do it when Minecraft is done so its a ****ton more work than doing it in beta!
Option number three. Go ahead I don't really care.
My football team is the Russian bears on unicycles.
Reasons why it'll stay java.
1) Modding is painless and universal
2) The game can run just about any computer with the right specs
3) Notch is much more experienced in java
4) C/C++ is nice for games that have high end graphics. Minecraft isn't graphical
5) While it is true that it would be faster to process in native machine language. Java is just easier to program for and Minecraft still needs to be optimized (the game is still a work in progress).