Well I see this game as evolution; as time goes by this game will get better. At the current moment the game is more "Cave man" stage to "1800's" stage. The blocks are limited, and so are many other things. Being a beta it is understandable and being that it was made by 1 man it is understandable.
There is a lot being demanded here, many months of coding and work would be needed to fill out half of the list - if not years. I vote we approach this more carefully and with more respect. This game is great atm and fulfills many peoples needs for creativity.
I support the causes displayed here, but i'm sure that Notch understands what his fans want. More block types, more to play with, etc, i'm sure him and his team are working hard at trying to fulfill demand.
I support this thread, but i'll be cautious about it. Last thing we want to do is make people upset because of how much we demand
I for one would love more modern materials/blocks. More Glass blocks, and i'd love for him to optimize the game a bit more to allow a higher height limit, or to at least fix the bug that rids of the hideous FPS issues when the map is brought down to 3 blocks in height. etc.
Well I see this game as evolution; as time goes by this game will get better. At the current moment the game is more "Cave man" stage to "1800's" stage. The blocks are limited, and so are many other things. Being a beta it is understandable and being that it was made by 1 man it is understandable.
There is a lot being demanded here, many months of coding and work would be needed to fill out half of the list - if not years. I vote we approach this more carefully and with more respect. This game is great atm and fulfills many peoples needs for creativity.
I support the causes displayed here, but i'm sure that Notch understands what his fans want. More block types, more to play with, etc, i'm sure him and his team are working hard at trying to fulfill demand.
I support this thread, but i'll be cautious about it. Last thing we want to do is make people upset because of how much we demand
I for one would love more modern materials/blocks. More Glass blocks, and i'd love for him to optimize the game a bit more to allow a higher height limit, or to at least fix the bug that rids of the hideous FPS issues when the map is brought down to 3 blocks in height. etc.
I agree, and more glass types would certainly be a huge step forward, I hope to see that soon.
I disagree with everything. You have considered A LOT of things but the main thing you didn't consider at all is the fact that Minecraft wouldn't be Minecraft with what you have added in the OP.
I'm just gonna leave it at that.
LOL WTF??? It is minecraft if you put it in minecraft isn't it? Or is basic logic different or something on your planet?
Seriously I hate this argument.
1. Who says you define what minecraft is and isn't
2. Nobody says you have to use new features. Why limit those who will?
I am glad to see more discussion about computers, but remember, UTD is universal tech now, and another thing thats on my mind is transport.
The Mo' Creatures mod redefined travel in Minecraft with the additions of horses. If you re-skinned it to be a motorcross bike isn't it practically the same thing? The components for cars, bikes, trains, already exist, either already in the game, or through mods. If someone took the time to skin the horses from Mo' Creatures, there's a beta car mod right there! And the Pegasus can fly, that can be a jet.
Also we have new sponsors, Donoteat and Zirumshero, two tech visionary's worthy of mention. I have links to their main technological threads on the first post! Check them out.
I am glad to see more discussion about computers, but remember, UTD is universal tech now, and another thing thats on my mind is transport.
The Mo' Creatures mod redefined travel in Minecraft with the additions of horses. If you re-skinned it to be a motorcross bike isn't it practically the same thing? The components for cars, bikes, trains, already exist, either already in the game, or through mods. If someone took the time to skin the horses from Mo' Creatures, there's a beta car mod right there! And the Pegasus can fly, that can be a jet.
Also we have new sponsors, Donoteat and Zirumshero, two tech visionary's worthy of mention. I have links to their main technological threads on the first post! Check them out.
Genius, Someone has to do this. If I had the know how I would definitely attempt this!
Basically, make the horse into a "car" with a new skin. Get rid of the animation, make it lack the ability to move on its own. reskin the Saddle to be a "key" and walk up to your car, use the key (saddle) and drive around!
This idea has to be spread, someone who knows how to make new models, etc, will eventually see this and know its a good idea.
I am glad to see more discussion about computers, but remember, UTD is universal tech now, and another thing thats on my mind is transport.
The Mo' Creatures mod redefined travel in Minecraft with the additions of horses. If you re-skinned it to be a motorcross bike isn't it practically the same thing? The components for cars, bikes, trains, already exist, either already in the game, or through mods. If someone took the time to skin the horses from Mo' Creatures, there's a beta car mod right there! And the Pegasus can fly, that can be a jet.
Also we have new sponsors, Donoteat and Zirumshero, two tech visionary's worthy of mention. I have links to their main technological threads on the first post! Check them out.
Genius, Someone has to do this. If I had the know how I would definitely attempt this!
Basically, make the horse into a "car" with a new skin. Get rid of the animation, make it lack the ability to move on its own. reskin the Saddle to be a "key" and walk up to your car, use the key (saddle) and drive around!
This idea has to be spread, someone who knows how to make new models, etc, will eventually see this and know its a good idea.
I am glad you like the idea, I will post it to the Mo' Creatures mod, and if you would like to shout it out on your thread, it would be helpful, if everyone helps a bit, maybe someone will take the time.
A motorbike would be able to "Jump" like the horses, and a car only to drive on the ground, making it viable for roads, but not for travel over terrain. It could also help with war items, such as tanks. Also, the Mo' Creatures mod includes a pegasus horse that can fly, I think that is equivalent to a helicopter. If someone could take this work, even JUST the skins at first, it would be amazing. You could even add helipads to some of your NewCraft buildings.
"I disagree, Sure, advanced games, no, but I have detonated much more that 1000 blocks of tnt, thats for sure.”
I said a 1000-wide cube, not 1000 blocks. That cube would actually be a billion TNT.
That sounds like a fun thing to try, anyway, I understand you being skeptical about in-game computing, but I think that under the tnt compression plan, this could work perfectly.
Even if you are skeptical, don't you think it would be cool if you had a giant supercomputer in the core of your base? Be honest.
Why would I want a giant supercomputer in my base in Minecraft? You're starting to sound like an evil mastermind. o.o
I'm in agreement with the general motivation of the UTD and the various proposals, but here are my comments:
#1 The OP should be way more condensed to just a list of points for the people who will comment "TL;DR" -- and that list should also be continuously updated with alternative or additional proposals, as well as realistic issues that we need to deal with. (meaning they require realistic solutions)
#2 On "Minecraft is too slow, get off Java, get multithreaded" statements -- it's not Java, it's (some) crap programming (NOTE: I have great respect for the current system and Notch's work, but it does have its flaws)--
1)As far as I know, Minecraft does not take advantage of the GPU's massive parallel speed for rendering.
2)It is not multithreaded, and I think certain features (not all of MC, though) should be separate threads (ex. redstone circuits); this would be easier to code and/or patch old features with.
3)Optiminer and MCRegion, which increase performance a lot in various ways, have not been officially implemented. They decrease lag and save file space wastage by *A LOT* without messing with the GPU/multithreading.
Third, my 2 cents on proposals thus far:
1) Pocket dimensions (with some modifications to the idea) -- not just for redstone and can reuse code/mechanics similar to the Nether.
2) Mechanics system, reasonable but not as massive as some proposals, see ?f=1&t=51359
3) Vehicles/transport, see ?f=1&t=130023
4) Redstone enhancements - look up Craftbook, once it's ported to SSP (and since it's already on SMP)
5) Weapons - my take is a bit different. Non-handheld "weaponry" (cannons, tanks, etc.) should be built using available features (new mechanics, vehicles, redstone, pocket dimensions). Guns, knives, and thrown explosives are in mods, and are, IMO, amongst mods that should be implemented officially.
The biggest controversy, IMO, is over whether new features should be some kind of official implementation, or if they should be a big mod pack utilizing an official modding API. For those unaware of programming practices, an API would be a bunch of code that we could use from outside that would be way easier and safer than hacking up MC's internals, not to mention Notch-approved.
I'll make another post later with a second draft of the UTD.
"I disagree, Sure, advanced games, no, but I have detonated much more that 1000 blocks of tnt, thats for sure.”
I said a 1000-wide cube, not 1000 blocks. That cube would actually be a billion TNT.
That sounds like a fun thing to try, anyway, I understand you being skeptical about in-game computing, but I think that under the tnt compression plan, this could work perfectly.
Even if you are skeptical, don't you think it would be cool if you had a giant supercomputer in the core of your base? Be honest.
Why would I want a giant supercomputer in my base in Minecraft? You're starting to sound like an evil mastermind. o.o
Well you see, if you want to carry out tasks like crowd control, self destruct, things like that, you really need a computer to help you out.
Now I'm thinking of really awful things I could do on SMP server involving computers, but It could also be used for more passive things, like gaming until the sun comes up, after all, you don't want the creepers to come a-knocking.
It could even give you tips, store your recipes, manage your farming, run a drill of refinery, the possibility's are endless, that post is actually from the old part of this thread, Unity for Redstone Computing, but it really does show we have come a long way. I'm personally excited for reskinning Mo'Creatures horses for transportation.
I'm in agreement with the general motivation of the UTD and the various proposals, but there are issues.
#1 The OP should be way more condensed to just a list of points for the people who will comment "TL;DR" -- and that list should also be continuously updated with alternative or additional proposals, as well as realistic issues that we need to deal with. (meaning they require realistic solutions)
#2 On "Minecraft is too slow, get off Java, get multithreaded" statements -- it's not Java, it's (some) crap programming (NOTE: I have great respect for the current system and Notch's work, but it does have its flaws)--
1)As far as I know, Minecraft does not take advantage of the GPU's massive parallel speed for rendering.
2)It is not multithreaded, and I think certain features (not all of MC, though) should be separate threads (ex. redstone circuits); this would be easier to code and/or patch old features with.
3)Optiminer and MCRegion, which increase performance a lot in various ways, have not been officially implemented. They decrease lag and save file space wastage by *A LOT* without messing with the GPU/multithreading.
Third, my 2 cents on proposals thus far:
1) Pocket dimensions (with some modifications to the idea) -- not just for redstone and can reuse code/mechanics similar to the Nether.
2) Mechanics system, reasonable but not as massive as some proposals, see ?f=1&t=51359
3) Vehicles/transport, see ?f=1&t=130023
4) Redstone enhancements - look up Craftbook, once it's ported to SSP (and since it's already on SMP)
5) Weapons - my take is a bit different. Non-handheld "weaponry" (cannons, tanks, etc.) should be built using available features (new mechanics, vehicles, redstone, pocket dimensions). Guns, knives, and thrown explosives are in mods, and are, IMO, amongst mods that should be implemented officially.
The biggest controversy, IMO, is over whether new features should be some kind of official implementation, or if they should be a big mod pack utilizing an official modding API. For those unaware of programming practices, an API would be a bunch of code that we could use from outside that would be way easier and safer than hacking up MC's internals, not to mention Notch-approved.
I'll make another post later with a second draft of the UTD.
Your post has swayed me, and really motivates me, I really do agree with your motion to officially implement mods into Minecraft. I do agree that some sloppy programming needs to be tightened up, but I believe this is possible.
This thread is still relatively small, but I feel like I'm doing something big here, and I'm going to stay dedicated to it until the end. I really appreciate your feedback and hope to hear back from you.
All I have to say is that guns and helicopters are a bit too much. This is around medieval times. Maybe if somebody made a mod good and close enough to Minecraft but with a modern feel and a different gameplay style, then Notch could make it into another game kind of like how CounterStrike spawned from Half-Life. Maybe just a huge map with terrority functions where each clan/gang can capture it or something. If anybody actually wants to do that idea, please go for it. I'd love to add ideas. Besides that though, I think the following are necessary:
- Redstone improvements that are capable of more things, simpler, and for the more advanced, something like bluestone which could act like how redstone does with electricity but with some other effect.
- Horses so saddles can be used.
- Dragons so we can ride them to fly.
- Flying carpets?
- Definetly steam power. A train however is as far as technology should go.
So... how exactly do we intend to move forward here?
Lobbying for new features sounds a bit... annoying to . I suggest we focus more on creating and improving mods that add a sense of modernity to the game, rather than just saying to "we demand that the motif of the game be changed to suit our purposes", because that seems a bit tactless.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Well, your MOM makes your mom jokes that don't make sense.
I've removed the "Massive Version" of the proposals, which goes into detail about the blocks and their various mechanics. This is mainly due to space on the screen ("TL;DR"), but also because I want to polish it, add recipes, mechanic formulas, and keep it as an official specification. The original one, without recent edits, can be found here.
Inconsistencies with the pastebin Massive Version will occur due to this post being updated, and the Massive Version worked on privately. It will be updated periodically, but this post will be updated more often.
Please note that each proposal may assume earlier proposals were already implemented, thus, this would be a loose timeline of proposals, listed by importance (highest to lowest).
Note that massive weapons (non-handheld) like tanks can be made by combining current creations with the new mechanics/vehicles system. For instance, a grenade cannon attached to a 5 m/s tank would be pretty deadly.
Proposals (Shortened version):
1) Create a public multithreading API and use it in the MC code. The API is only necessary if timed re-rendering would break if features ran in parallel. (I suspect it would due to mentions of it as an issue when people tried to create a mod removing tick delay for redstone.)
2) Create a public modding API which has enough features to accomodate *ALL* current mods. It must be able to alter certain constants (max height, health, daytime length, etc.) and add mechanisms(block combos or singular special blocks with certain physics rules)/blocks/creatures.
3) Implement pocket dimensions, a general-purpose storage medium in the form of portal gems. This requires only the portal gem block type, but it must include a portal gem placing/creation GUI.
4) Implement a new mechanics system which allows maximum creative potential. This involves 3 new energy types, 20 new block types, and 5 energy harvesters (some are multi-block).
5) Implement a vehicle creation system which allows for faster and more convenient transport. This involves 7 new block types (but several multiple placed-blocks-combos which have special physics, at least one per block type).
The Community Plan (In which we create a big-ass mod pack that's 100% legal, modular, and open source):
==NOTE: "Resources" sections link to various, possibly outdated, mods, tutorials, tools, etc. I am fully aware if they are outdated, and intend to use them as examples for future code and models, so don't complain about it.==
1) Start off by coding basic multithreading structure wrappers for rendered objects so that threads that run in parallel can still be re-rendered sequentially (at intervals) without breaking things. These wrappers do not necessarily require modification to the internal MC code, so we can safely use them just for newly designed code.
2) We work on the MCP Mod System as a general-purpose, public (open source? I asked, and am waiting for an answer still) modding API. It is currently in a semi-usable state (considering it's still in alpha, that's pretty good), and with work, could provide enough options as to create everything we need.
Resources:
MCP Mod System - The essential modding API which allows us to add mods without editing minecraft.jar, and plus reduces conflicts. It accesses directly the obfuscated classes of Minecraft, so it's easy to make mods. A custom Minecraft launcher also gives a convenient menu to install/uninstall mods.
Minecraft Coder Pack (MCP) - An essential modding SDK which includes both the MCP Mod System API and a deobfuscator for Minecraft source code. While this may be obsolete in the future, right now it's a valuable resource to plan and code the Mod System API.
3) We work on pocket dimensions. See the Massive Version of the proposals for an explanation, as my concept as applied here has slight differences from the well-known concept here. Portal gems simply refer to any object which can be used as a portal to any spatial point (x,y,z), and pocket dimensions are simply specially separated spaces. This reduces work, lag (ex. loading Nether and unloading it), and complexity.
Resources:
ymod - Allows for height limit to be increased, by *A LOT* -- 512 or even 1024, as opposed to 128. Could allow for enough depth underground so that we could have hide 16 pocket dimensions at size of maybe 64x64x64, which might load reasonably well given a good, modern computer. "Hide" refers to the fact that pocket dimensions are inaccessible without using the portal gems, since they should be
Multicolor Redstone Torches & One-Way Glass - One-way glass might be useful for portals. Mutlicolor redstone torches are unrelated, but they might be useful in a later redstone mod.
Teleport Signs - Useful as portal gem example/alternative. Is updated and includes Sign Tags. Sign tags are awesome, good for both redstone expansion (the [a|b]), coordinate checking, and also have biome/temp/humidity/light check.
Redstone Unleashed - One of the mods in that collection; updated by RoundAround in January. Allows infinite length redstone chains, and also optional tick delay removal. Applies to portal dimension integrated circuits, which may require tinkering with redstone to get them working across a portal gem.
4) Implement a mechanics system. Little to no inter-block relationship coding, except energy transfer (which would work much like redstone). Energy harvesters could be multi-block or single-block (i.e. subject to change), but single-block is the easiest way.
For those who will not visit the Massive Version, this system essentially consists of special blocks, simple machines (ex. gears, springs, pumps), that take a new form of energy (mechanical) and utilize it, transferring it in some way or using it to do something. Conversions between forms of energy (such as redstone current to mechanical energy) may also be possible. (In fact, may be necessary)
5) Implement a vehicle system. Vehicle system consists of linkable parts, and all parts are "powered" like in mechanics system to give certain speed increases in a certain direction. If it is not a powered "mover" (which include wheel, oar, balloon, and propeller) then it is a mover ingredient (for the recipe, right?), vehicle ingredient, mover linker (connects movers and accumulates speed? may not be necessary, so is subject to change), or simple vehicle (MC original vehicle + new mover blocks).
Possible implementations might be special blocks (movers) which make everything attached to it (see below for mover effect) part of an entity upon being powered (see Proposal 4, Massive Version). These custom entities cannot be modified while powered (blocks destroyed/placed on them).
Mover effect - All blocks attached to any side other than the bottom, except for gas/liquid materials, are added to a Collection of blocks. These blocks also gain the mover effect. This ensures all blocks are included in an upward, branching shape, until we hit air/water or other gases/liquids. Then, a suitable outer barrier which consists of all blocks on the outside of the vehicle is created, and a new Collection will be constructed, consisting of all blocks within the "hull" outlined. This means that open vehicles with a hole in any side should either be creatively made or use glass.
**Resources for 5 & 6 are coming. However, given that 2 & 3 are relatively difficult to implement and are still in the works, I can safely say we won't need an exact specification for 5 & 6 for at least a few months.**
All I have to say is that guns and helicopters are a bit too much. This is around medieval times. Maybe if somebody made a mod good and close enough to Minecraft but with a modern feel and a different gameplay style, then Notch could make it into another game kind of like how CounterStrike spawned from Half-Life. Maybe just a huge map with terrority functions where each clan/gang can capture it or something. If anybody actually wants to do that idea, please go for it. I'd love to add ideas. Besides that though, I think the following are necessary:
- Redstone improvements that are capable of more things, simpler, and for the more advanced, something like bluestone which could act like how redstone does with electricity but with some other effect.
- Horses so saddles can be used.
- Dragons so we can ride them to fly.
- Flying carpets?
- Definetly steam power. A train however is as far as technology should go.
Minecraft doesn't "Take Place" in any given time period, which is why we actually have the ability to mod and add alternative texture packs, what I think we need to work on is getting a few modern mods to be officially adapted, as well as keep our lobbying effort going, however if we only lobby for features, as donoteat said, we will not get anywhere.
I don't know if you really have the authority to state when Minecraft takes place when you are not the people that are actually making the game.
EDIT : I just found out that on 2/16 (2 days ago) the Mojang team announced 1.3 would, in fact, use the MCRegion save file format, automatically converting to it seamlessly, as in the suggestion I had planned. So, please disregard anything relating to MCRegion in the rest of this long post.
I am currently looking at the MCP Mod System as an alternative to, or perhaps role model for, a public modding API, for those who might suggest it.
Please note that each proposal may assume earlier proposals were already implemented, thus, this would be a loose timeline of proposals, listed by importance (highest to lowest).
Proposal 1 is available for everybody already, it's just a request for something official. Proposals 4, 5, and 6 can be accomplished by veteran modders of the communities, if we assume that at least Proposal 3 has been accepted and allowed. If not, then a community-made modding API might work (although one that is Notch-approved and made by those who live and breath MC code as their job would be preferable). That is to say, given a large community effort to make a robust modding API, and some relatively big mods, we could technically accomplish everything listed here. (which includes modding API, portal dims, mechanics, and vehicles).
Note that massive weapons (non-handheld) like tanks can be made by combining current creations with the new mechanics/vehicles system. For instance, a grenade cannon attached to a 5 m/s tank would be pretty deadly.
Proposals (Shortened version):
1) Implement Optiminer and MCRegion officially. Huge performance increases (usually at least 20 FPS, according to the author of those mods) and smaller saves (on the order of 500-1000x smaller) with no implementation coding delay.
2) Create a public multithreading API* and use it in the MC code. The API is only necessary if timed re-rendering requires access to the states of all blocks within render distance.
3) Create a public modding API which has enough features to accomodate *ALL* current mods. It must be able to alter certain constants (max height, health, daytime length, etc.) and add mechanisms(block combos or singular special blocks with certain physics rules)/blocks/creatures.
4) Implement pocket dimensions, a general-purpose storage medium in the form of portal gems. This requires only the portal gem block type, but it must include a portal gem placing/creation GUI.
5) Implement a new mechanics system which allows maximum creative potential. This involves 3 new energy types, 20 new block types, and 5 energy harvesters (some are multi-block).
6) Implement a vehicle creation system which allows for faster and more convenient transport. This involves 7 new block types (but several multiple placed-blocks-combos which have special physics, at least one per block type).
The Community Plan (In which we assume Notch hates our ideas so we create a big-ass mod pack):
1) Include Optiminer and MCRegion in our mod pack.
2) Start off by coding basic multithreading structure wrappers for rendered objects so that threads that run in parallel can still be re-rendered sequentially (at intervals) without breaking things.
3) Have some team of programmers design a collaboration modding API which allows for a lot of options.
4) Have that team implement, in this order, pocket dimensions, a mechanics system, and a vehicle system. Using the same team is preferable, since they can go in and change the modding API a little bit to accommodate some features that they didn't originally realize they needed. Anybody could do that, but people who are intimately familiar with the API would be far better.
5) Release it under a custom open source license, and put the project on your resume, transcript, etc. A big project like this looks great to college application readers, employers, and so on. Note that for it to be legal, it probably has to be distributed as a fully open source (in this case meaning you could take it and put it in any project, commercial, free, or open source; mainly so that Mojang could put it in MC, make money, make us look good, and make them not want to sue us [which we should add a clause for in the license]), free, and in patcher form, not as a compiled minecraft.jar
Proposals (Massive version):
1) Implement Optiminer and MCRegion officially.
MCRegion should be implemented such that MC saves in regions optionally (by default it will), but loads in regions only if the saves are in that format, and if not, then it loads using the regular MC format. This ensures compatibility and seamless moving to the new format. Users should be forewarned of this update in case of broken saves. Also, be aware that a utility is available to convert a save between the two formats.
2) Create a public multithreading API* and use it in the MC code.
An example would be redstone circuits running in a separate thread from time-based lighting and creature movement rendering. This API should also allow for special GPU threads so that certain features can run on the GPU (rendering being the highest priority).
* The API may be necessary only because of MC's rendering; I'm not certain if MC's rendering occurs as a timed event which checks everything within render distance and updates, or if each object which changes re-renders on its own every time it changes. If it is not necessary, then simply implementing multithreading for certain features is fine.
3) Create a public modding API which has enough features to accomodate *ALL* current mods.
This includes ways to alter certain internal values (daytime rates, daytime toggle, player speed, jump height, reach, max height, etc.), change internal mechanics (lighting, rendering, and physics) and add blocks/mechanics/creatures. This includes a GUI with a button on the main MC launcher screen, as well as an option in the GUI to return to a clean unmodded MC.
4) Implement pocket dimensions, a general-purpose storage medium in the form of portal gems.
Each portal gem has an identifier (which would be visible in the inventory screen), and when placed and used (walking into or clicking?), transports the player to the corresponding exit portal gem. Portal gems always create links to other portal gems. Upon creation of a portal gem, one has the option of creating a new pocket dimension, and the new dimension will have a default pocket gem (placed) already inside. Every time a portal gem is placed (it cannot be picked up again, only destroyed), the player is prompted as to which portal gem this one should link to (labeled with identifiers). Multiple entrances/exits are possible with the identifier system, and pocket dimensions will have a size limit of 128x128x128. They will not require separate loading/unloading like the Nether, and could possibly be implemented as rooms enclosed in bedrock which are inaccessible via normal transportation in the real world (perhaps a few spaces under the normal bedrock which limits how deep we can mine). Each pocket dimension would be a separate region when using MCRegion.
Note that pocket dimensions as explained above are explicitly different from the mechanics of pocket dimensions as explained here.
5) Implement a new mechanics system which allows and maximum creative potential.
Heavily inspired by, but has some differences from, this suggestion.
Note that "fluids" refers to "gases or liquids"
4 Energy Types ("of" means produced or required by):
Electrical - The basic energy type. Controlled by redstone circuits.
Mechanical - The energy of motion. (While this can be moving solids, materials in liquid/gas form also count)
Thermal - The energy of heat (fire, lava).
Solar - The energy of light (sun, fire, lava). Cheaper to make but less efficient than thermal in most cases.
(New) Block Types (20 of them!):
Gear - Most basic new block; made of iron. Simply transfers mechanical energy in the 2D plane in which it is placed, since it is attached to the side of a block. (lying on the floor, attached to the ceiling, or on a side of a block)
Drive Shaft - Spinning log which transfers mechanical energy in a linear path.
Pipe - Made of iron; takes up one block; allows for fluids to pass through. Fluids retain their flow direction and level (height) when they pass through. Pipes are not linear, they act as connections to all adjacent blocks which allow fluids to flow through (pipes, valves, etc). Fluids cannot exit on a side where there is no attached pipe/valve/etc. If there is no pump, fluids pass upwards slowly, filling up all connected pipe blocks as much as possible at each vertical level, and if there is any output at any vertical level, the fluid will be at the lowest level flowing out, and never reach any higher vertical levels in connected pipes. If there *is* a pump, then fluids simply move at maximum level everywhere.
Valve - Made of iron; takes up one block; is attached to any side of a pipe block. It allows fluids to pass out of the pipe.
Rope - Made of string; is attached to a bottom of a gear box. Extends downwards if possible, up to a maximum length, when the gear box is powered. Otherwise, it shortens until it's a single block under the gear box.
Gear Box - Made of a gear and some wood, allows mechanical input and output on any sides.
Circuit Box - Not a real block type, just any block with a portal gem integrated circuit on top and redstone inputs/outputs. Mentioned for simplicity in other explanations.
Pump - Attached to one side of a pipe, takes in fluid flowing in any direction at any level and pumps it into the pipe in the direction of the pipe at maximum level.
Timer - Made of a clock and some iron. Outputs electricity at given intervals. Has GUI to input interval periods.
Steam - Reminiscent of (perhaps the same as?) cloud material. A gaseous block which, in open air, rises for 5 blocks and disappears.
Wheel Accelerator - Made of of 2 gears and some iron. When a track is attached to the top and given mechanical energy input, any wheeled vehicle (most basic is minecart) travelling over the track will accelerate.
Spring - Made of iron. Used only in creation of other new blocks.
Pusher - Made of iron, springs, and a gear. Given mechanical energy input via drive shaft, will give "push" mechanical energy.
Launcher - Made of iron and springs. When attached to a pusher, each push will be amplified and launch an object attached to the top of the launcher.
Piston - Made of iron. When attached to a pusher, each push will push the piston outwards one block (extending the shaft which connects the piston and pusher). The piston will push any objects it contacts with great force, crushing objects between it and a wall, and breaking anything weaker than stone. Also hits buttons and toggles switches.
Conveyor - Made of wood and gears. Attached to the top of blocks. It transfers mechanical energy to adjacent conveyor blocks, and can only connect to a single conveyor block. Anything on top of a conveyor block moves in the direction of the next connected conveyor block.
Factory Crafter - Made of iron, 2 gears, and a crafting table. Materials are fed in via conveyor, factory crafter, or factory furnace. Adjacent storage or block input will take the newly crafted block, otherwise, will output into empty air. If no available output space is adjacent, output is destroyed and inputs collect outside the crafter. Designs are given via GUI.
Factory Furnace - Made of iron, 2 gears, and a furnace. Similar to factory crafter, only all inputs must be smeltable items. No designs required with smelting. Output works the same way.
Converter - Made of iron, 10 gears, and some redstone. Takes input energy of one type and outputs it in another type. Types are specified via GUI.
Lighter - Made of flint, iron, and redstone. Takes input electricity and lights adjacent torches (normal, not redstone), pumpkins, etc.
5 Energy Harvesters
Windmill - Large multi-block machine. Requires certain height/space and sporadically spins. Must be attached to a gearbox's side (not top or bottom), and is always oriented the same way. Outputs mechanical energy to that gearbox. (NOTE: may interface with weather systems in later updates)
Boiler - 3x3x2. Takes 2 inputs and has one output. One input is a heat source (ex. a pipe containing lava, or heated air) and another is a water source (pipe or naturally flowing). The output is steam (one steam block per full water block).
Coal Engine - Single block. Coal is put in via GUI, and outputs thermal energy. Furnace?
Steam Engine - 3x3x3. Takes steam source input and produces 3 mechanical energy outputs. (One per output, up to 3 outputs)
Magnifying Chamber - Single block. If light hits the top of it, then the air inside is heated. Any attached pipe with air inside will be heated.
6) Implement a vehicle creation system which allows for faster and more convenient transport.
Note that this definitely requires the mechanics system to be implemented first. Turning is accomplished by orienting wheels/oars sideways, or propellers on the side of a vehicle. Strange, I know, but adding complicated programming to create a driving GUI will take some of the unique MC "I-built-this-huge-ass-contraption" glory out of it.
New Block Types:
Wheel - Made of stone and a gear. Single block when placed.
Axle - Made of a stick and a gear. Single block when placed. When a gear box is attached, mechanical energy spins the axle and both wheels attached on either end. Only works if two wheels are attached. Each axle is powered by a single gear box, and each axle makes the wheels spin at such a rate as to go 4x of walk speed. (The gear box moves everything attached to it, indirectly or directly, at the same speed. A player counts.)
When multiple are placed, attached to the outsides of two wheels, can act as connector of two wheels of two different pairs (pairs means two wheels connected at their centers by one axle). If two are placed between corresponding wheels of two pairs, then their speeds are accumulative (that is, if two connected pairs are powered at the same time, then they move at 8x normal speed, subject to normal physics). If one of the connected pairs is moving and the other is not, then both move forward at the speed of one, minus 25%. Each wheel pair can be connected to two others (in front and in back), so an infinite chain can be made. In a finite chain of wheel pairs, the speed is calculated by the sum of the powered pairs' speeds minus 25% of the sum of the non-moving pairs' speeds.
Bike Chain - Made of a conveyor and a stick.
Bicycle - Made of a bike chain, two wheels, and 12 sticks. Can be ridden by a player at 2.5x of walk speed normally, other physics apply normally. Cannot move with a player on top, and slows to a stop if the player jumps off.
Oars - Made of sticks and a wooden plank. Placed as a single block which can be attached to a boat or axle. If attached to a boat, when the boat is ridden, the player cannot use handheld items, and the boat moves at 2x the normal boat speed. When attached to an axle, oar pairs are made, and the same mechanics apply as those of wheels and axles.
Balloon - Made of cloth and torch. Attaches to a mine cart via rope. When attached to minecart, rises when you light the torch at 1 m/s. Multiple hot air balloons can be connected by connecting the minecarts, and increases rise speed in the same way as axles. Lighters can be used as controls.
Propellers - Made of 10 wood and 10 iron. Attached to a gear box, will propel the gear box and everything indirectly attached to it at speed of 1m/s when powered, if there is air or water behind it, in direction opposite the gear box. As it takes up only a single block, multiple propeller/gear box combos can be attached at the gear box. Use the same accumulative speed formula as for axles. Creates wind/bubbles in air/water when spinning.
This is a great proposal, I am glad you put the effort into it, as a matter a fact, if I could have your permission to put it on the front page it would be greatly appreciated.
I like how it combines adding mods and API's to our mix of actions as well as lobbying Mojang for our proposals. I really think we do need an official modloader that everyone must use that doesn't suck donkeyballs (Risugami's Mod Loader) and I feel this is really a good plan to long term survival and the success of this thread.
So please, with your permission, I would like to add it to our front page.
My version of the UTD second draft: <omitted for space>
This is a great proposal, I am glad you put the effort into it, as a matter a fact, if I could have your permission to put it on the front page it would be greatly appreciated.
I like how it combines adding mods and API's to our mix of actions as well as lobbying Mojang for our proposals. I really think we do need an official modloader that everyone must use that doesn't suck donkeyballs (Risugami's Mod Loader) and I feel this is really a good plan to long term survival and the success of this thread.
So please, with your permission, I would like to add it to our front page.
First, it's personal opinion about Risugami's Mod Loader. However, I think that while it has its merits and is a good utility, it does not meet the standards for me personally. My standards are basically that we don't modify minecraft.jar, no mods modify minecraft.jar, we don't have to deal with obfuscated & undocumented MC code, and we have access to MC's internals *plus* extensions that might be important.
Second, regarding the front page request, I would very much like that, under a few conditions that I think are relatively simple. Don't post it up as a huge TL;DR spec, I'd prefer it if you simply put a big link or something at the top of the first post. Also, please do the same for other's drafts. While I appreciate their efforts, it'd be easier to navigate with some links to different drafts, different specs, different versions, w/e you use to differentiate them.
[size=xx-large][url=http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=159963&p=2664379#p2664379][color=red]Second Draft of the UTD Project Specification[/color][/url][/size]
This saves space, and also allows the maintainers to actively update their respective drafts. As you can see, I literally was in the middle of ripping out the Massive Version and putting in a very clear Community Plan just as you requested to put my draft on the front page. A prime example :tongue.gif:
Understand that I'm not trying to overstep my bounds, just that when you scroll around on a forum post that is 3-4x your monitor length, and then make a second post that really just contains 4 or 5 of those big ones in quotes, it gets unwieldy and frustrating. (Hence, why I cut out the Massive Version)
If you are looking for the Massive Version explicitly as well, I will repost it in a few days, probably, with polished mechanics, definitions, etc.
Thank you, I shall put the link up, I am actually going to take down Zaldarr's, write my own, and tidy up a bit, because the first post isn't actually at its neatest right now.
There is a lot being demanded here, many months of coding and work would be needed to fill out half of the list - if not years. I vote we approach this more carefully and with more respect. This game is great atm and fulfills many peoples needs for creativity.
I support the causes displayed here, but i'm sure that Notch understands what his fans want. More block types, more to play with, etc, i'm sure him and his team are working hard at trying to fulfill demand.
I support this thread, but i'll be cautious about it. Last thing we want to do is make people upset because of how much we demand
I for one would love more modern materials/blocks. More Glass blocks, and i'd love for him to optimize the game a bit more to allow a higher height limit, or to at least fix the bug that rids of the hideous FPS issues when the map is brought down to 3 blocks in height. etc.
I agree, and more glass types would certainly be a huge step forward, I hope to see that soon.
LOL WTF??? It is minecraft if you put it in minecraft isn't it? Or is basic logic different or something on your planet?
Seriously I hate this argument.
1. Who says you define what minecraft is and isn't
2. Nobody says you have to use new features. Why limit those who will?
The Mo' Creatures mod redefined travel in Minecraft with the additions of horses. If you re-skinned it to be a motorcross bike isn't it practically the same thing? The components for cars, bikes, trains, already exist, either already in the game, or through mods. If someone took the time to skin the horses from Mo' Creatures, there's a beta car mod right there! And the Pegasus can fly, that can be a jet.
Also we have new sponsors, Donoteat and Zirumshero, two tech visionary's worthy of mention. I have links to their main technological threads on the first post! Check them out.
Wouldn't "Union" for Tech Development sound better? (or is that too socialist?)
With that in mind I've created what I think is a better banner...
code for siggy:
Well, your MOM makes your mom jokes that don't make sense.
I love the banner, the other ones are crap! I will post the code on the first page as well.
New poll everyone! What is the technology you hold dearest to your heart! Submit your answer today.
Genius, Someone has to do this. If I had the know how I would definitely attempt this!
Basically, make the horse into a "car" with a new skin. Get rid of the animation, make it lack the ability to move on its own. reskin the Saddle to be a "key" and walk up to your car, use the key (saddle) and drive around!
This idea has to be spread, someone who knows how to make new models, etc, will eventually see this and know its a good idea.
I am glad you like the idea, I will post it to the Mo' Creatures mod, and if you would like to shout it out on your thread, it would be helpful, if everyone helps a bit, maybe someone will take the time.
A motorbike would be able to "Jump" like the horses, and a car only to drive on the ground, making it viable for roads, but not for travel over terrain. It could also help with war items, such as tanks. Also, the Mo' Creatures mod includes a pegasus horse that can fly, I think that is equivalent to a helicopter. If someone could take this work, even JUST the skins at first, it would be amazing. You could even add helipads to some of your NewCraft buildings.
Why would I want a giant supercomputer in my base in Minecraft? You're starting to sound like an evil mastermind. o.o
#1 The OP should be way more condensed to just a list of points for the people who will comment "TL;DR" -- and that list should also be continuously updated with alternative or additional proposals, as well as realistic issues that we need to deal with. (meaning they require realistic solutions)
#2 On "Minecraft is too slow, get off Java, get multithreaded" statements -- it's not Java, it's (some) crap programming (NOTE: I have great respect for the current system and Notch's work, but it does have its flaws)--
1)As far as I know, Minecraft does not take advantage of the GPU's massive parallel speed for rendering.
2)It is not multithreaded, and I think certain features (not all of MC, though) should be separate threads (ex. redstone circuits); this would be easier to code and/or patch old features with.
3)Optiminer and MCRegion, which increase performance a lot in various ways, have not been officially implemented. They decrease lag and save file space wastage by *A LOT* without messing with the GPU/multithreading.
Third, my 2 cents on proposals thus far:
1) Pocket dimensions (with some modifications to the idea) -- not just for redstone and can reuse code/mechanics similar to the Nether.
2) Mechanics system, reasonable but not as massive as some proposals, see ?f=1&t=51359
3) Vehicles/transport, see ?f=1&t=130023
4) Redstone enhancements - look up Craftbook, once it's ported to SSP (and since it's already on SMP)
5) Weapons - my take is a bit different. Non-handheld "weaponry" (cannons, tanks, etc.) should be built using available features (new mechanics, vehicles, redstone, pocket dimensions). Guns, knives, and thrown explosives are in mods, and are, IMO, amongst mods that should be implemented officially.
The biggest controversy, IMO, is over whether new features should be some kind of official implementation, or if they should be a big mod pack utilizing an official modding API. For those unaware of programming practices, an API would be a bunch of code that we could use from outside that would be way easier and safer than hacking up MC's internals, not to mention Notch-approved.
I'll make another post later with a second draft of the UTD.
Well you see, if you want to carry out tasks like crowd control, self destruct, things like that, you really need a computer to help you out.
Now I'm thinking of really awful things I could do on SMP server involving computers, but It could also be used for more passive things, like gaming until the sun comes up, after all, you don't want the creepers to come a-knocking.
It could even give you tips, store your recipes, manage your farming, run a drill of refinery, the possibility's are endless, that post is actually from the old part of this thread, Unity for Redstone Computing, but it really does show we have come a long way. I'm personally excited for reskinning Mo'Creatures horses for transportation.
Your post has swayed me, and really motivates me, I really do agree with your motion to officially implement mods into Minecraft. I do agree that some sloppy programming needs to be tightened up, but I believe this is possible.
This thread is still relatively small, but I feel like I'm doing something big here, and I'm going to stay dedicated to it until the end. I really appreciate your feedback and hope to hear back from you.
- Redstone improvements that are capable of more things, simpler, and for the more advanced, something like bluestone which could act like how redstone does with electricity but with some other effect.
- Horses so saddles can be used.
- Dragons so we can ride them to fly.
- Flying carpets?
- Definetly steam power. A train however is as far as technology should go.
Lobbying for new features sounds a bit... annoying to . I suggest we focus more on creating and improving mods that add a sense of modernity to the game, rather than just saying to "we demand that the motif of the game be changed to suit our purposes", because that seems a bit tactless.
Well, your MOM makes your mom jokes that don't make sense.
I've removed the "Massive Version" of the proposals, which goes into detail about the blocks and their various mechanics. This is mainly due to space on the screen ("TL;DR"), but also because I want to polish it, add recipes, mechanic formulas, and keep it as an official specification. The original one, without recent edits, can be found here.
Inconsistencies with the pastebin Massive Version will occur due to this post being updated, and the Massive Version worked on privately. It will be updated periodically, but this post will be updated more often.
Please note that each proposal may assume earlier proposals were already implemented, thus, this would be a loose timeline of proposals, listed by importance (highest to lowest).
Note that massive weapons (non-handheld) like tanks can be made by combining current creations with the new mechanics/vehicles system. For instance, a grenade cannon attached to a 5 m/s tank would be pretty deadly.
Proposals (Shortened version):
2) Create a public modding API which has enough features to accomodate *ALL* current mods. It must be able to alter certain constants (max height, health, daytime length, etc.) and add mechanisms(block combos or singular special blocks with certain physics rules)/blocks/creatures.
3) Implement pocket dimensions, a general-purpose storage medium in the form of portal gems. This requires only the portal gem block type, but it must include a portal gem placing/creation GUI.
4) Implement a new mechanics system which allows maximum creative potential. This involves 3 new energy types, 20 new block types, and 5 energy harvesters (some are multi-block).
5) Implement a vehicle creation system which allows for faster and more convenient transport. This involves 7 new block types (but several multiple placed-blocks-combos which have special physics, at least one per block type).
The Community Plan (In which we create a big-ass mod pack that's 100% legal, modular, and open source):
1) Start off by coding basic multithreading structure wrappers for rendered objects so that threads that run in parallel can still be re-rendered sequentially (at intervals) without breaking things. These wrappers do not necessarily require modification to the internal MC code, so we can safely use them just for newly designed code.
2) We work on the MCP Mod System as a general-purpose, public (open source? I asked, and am waiting for an answer still) modding API. It is currently in a semi-usable state (considering it's still in alpha, that's pretty good), and with work, could provide enough options as to create everything we need.
Resources:
MCP Mod System - The essential modding API which allows us to add mods without editing minecraft.jar, and plus reduces conflicts. It accesses directly the obfuscated classes of Minecraft, so it's easy to make mods. A custom Minecraft launcher also gives a convenient menu to install/uninstall mods.
Minecraft Coder Pack (MCP) - An essential modding SDK which includes both the MCP Mod System API and a deobfuscator for Minecraft source code. While this may be obsolete in the future, right now it's a valuable resource to plan and code the Mod System API.
3) We work on pocket dimensions. See the Massive Version of the proposals for an explanation, as my concept as applied here has slight differences from the well-known concept here. Portal gems simply refer to any object which can be used as a portal to any spatial point (x,y,z), and pocket dimensions are simply specially separated spaces. This reduces work, lag (ex. loading Nether and unloading it), and complexity.
Resources:
ymod - Allows for height limit to be increased, by *A LOT* -- 512 or even 1024, as opposed to 128. Could allow for enough depth underground so that we could have hide 16 pocket dimensions at size of maybe 64x64x64, which might load reasonably well given a good, modern computer. "Hide" refers to the fact that pocket dimensions are inaccessible without using the portal gems, since they should be
Multicolor Redstone Torches & One-Way Glass - One-way glass might be useful for portals. Mutlicolor redstone torches are unrelated, but they might be useful in a later redstone mod.
Teleport Signs - Useful as portal gem example/alternative. Is updated and includes Sign Tags. Sign tags are awesome, good for both redstone expansion (the [a|b]), coordinate checking, and also have biome/temp/humidity/light check.
Redstone Unleashed - One of the mods in that collection; updated by RoundAround in January. Allows infinite length redstone chains, and also optional tick delay removal. Applies to portal dimension integrated circuits, which may require tinkering with redstone to get them working across a portal gem.
4) Implement a mechanics system. Little to no inter-block relationship coding, except energy transfer (which would work much like redstone). Energy harvesters could be multi-block or single-block (i.e. subject to change), but single-block is the easiest way.
For those who will not visit the Massive Version, this system essentially consists of special blocks, simple machines (ex. gears, springs, pumps), that take a new form of energy (mechanical) and utilize it, transferring it in some way or using it to do something. Conversions between forms of energy (such as redstone current to mechanical energy) may also be possible. (In fact, may be necessary)
5) Implement a vehicle system. Vehicle system consists of linkable parts, and all parts are "powered" like in mechanics system to give certain speed increases in a certain direction. If it is not a powered "mover" (which include wheel, oar, balloon, and propeller) then it is a mover ingredient (for the recipe, right?), vehicle ingredient, mover linker (connects movers and accumulates speed? may not be necessary, so is subject to change), or simple vehicle (MC original vehicle + new mover blocks).
Possible implementations might be special blocks (movers) which make everything attached to it (see below for mover effect) part of an entity upon being powered (see Proposal 4, Massive Version). These custom entities cannot be modified while powered (blocks destroyed/placed on them).
Mover effect - All blocks attached to any side other than the bottom, except for gas/liquid materials, are added to a Collection of blocks. These blocks also gain the mover effect. This ensures all blocks are included in an upward, branching shape, until we hit air/water or other gases/liquids. Then, a suitable outer barrier which consists of all blocks on the outside of the vehicle is created, and a new Collection will be constructed, consisting of all blocks within the "hull" outlined. This means that open vehicles with a hole in any side should either be creatively made or use glass.
**Resources for 5 & 6 are coming. However, given that 2 & 3 are relatively difficult to implement and are still in the works, I can safely say we won't need an exact specification for 5 & 6 for at least a few months.**
Minecraft doesn't "Take Place" in any given time period, which is why we actually have the ability to mod and add alternative texture packs, what I think we need to work on is getting a few modern mods to be officially adapted, as well as keep our lobbying effort going, however if we only lobby for features, as donoteat said, we will not get anywhere.
I don't know if you really have the authority to state when Minecraft takes place when you are not the people that are actually making the game.
This is a great proposal, I am glad you put the effort into it, as a matter a fact, if I could have your permission to put it on the front page it would be greatly appreciated.
I like how it combines adding mods and API's to our mix of actions as well as lobbying Mojang for our proposals. I really think we do need an official modloader that everyone must use that doesn't suck donkeyballs (Risugami's Mod Loader) and I feel this is really a good plan to long term survival and the success of this thread.
So please, with your permission, I would like to add it to our front page.
First, it's personal opinion about Risugami's Mod Loader. However, I think that while it has its merits and is a good utility, it does not meet the standards for me personally. My standards are basically that we don't modify minecraft.jar, no mods modify minecraft.jar, we don't have to deal with obfuscated & undocumented MC code, and we have access to MC's internals *plus* extensions that might be important.
Second, regarding the front page request, I would very much like that, under a few conditions that I think are relatively simple. Don't post it up as a huge TL;DR spec, I'd prefer it if you simply put a big link or something at the top of the first post. Also, please do the same for other's drafts. While I appreciate their efforts, it'd be easier to navigate with some links to different drafts, different specs, different versions, w/e you use to differentiate them.
Example:
Second Draft of the UTD Project Specification
This saves space, and also allows the maintainers to actively update their respective drafts. As you can see, I literally was in the middle of ripping out the Massive Version and putting in a very clear Community Plan just as you requested to put my draft on the front page. A prime example :tongue.gif:
Understand that I'm not trying to overstep my bounds, just that when you scroll around on a forum post that is 3-4x your monitor length, and then make a second post that really just contains 4 or 5 of those big ones in quotes, it gets unwieldy and frustrating. (Hence, why I cut out the Massive Version)
If you are looking for the Massive Version explicitly as well, I will repost it in a few days, probably, with polished mechanics, definitions, etc.