That's not even what the thread is about. Krelos was wondering if the people who are dicks online do so because of something offline. It's right there in the title.
And you can't reason that -everyone- abuses people online just because they have anonymity: I am completely anonymous here, and you don't see me ruining kids' days online.
Well... So what if they are? We can't very well change how people are irl without there consent. Whether there is a correlation between reality and griefing is irrelevant, as neither can be prevented totally
But I have to ask though, why does someone set about breaking things in the first place?
I mean, I've tried it, it's hella-boring. So why would someone go about doing it to begin with?
You're doing it wrong. It's subjective: boring for you, fun for others. Some do it as a form of trolling, others do it for the thrill of having the risk of being banned. It's similar to people doing extreme sports for the (apparent) risk of getting hurt.
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My Youtube channel.
Contains Pachebel's Canon made with noteblocks, a working Rubik's cube made with pistons, and the ultimate TNT cannon.
I did say that griefing and personalities are related, but I don't think it's anywhere close to anything significant. I tried to come up with an example of how I thought they could (even insignificantly) be related, but to no avail.
EDIT: I bet a lot of griefers do take pleasure in others' pain, but not because they're griefers.
What some people are trying to argue (which I only partially agree with), is that griefers aren't jackasses. They're just fine people taking advantage of the anonymity they are granted on the internet.
I think griefers are worse people for being griefers, but it's a horrid stretch of truth to generalize that all griefers are jackasses just because they annoy us. That's what we'd like to believe, but it's just not true.
I guess I'm passive aggressive in real life when someone is continually an asshole to me, but I'm not outwardly so like griefing is.
It's funny you make this long post when actually, you'd find I'm probably a much nicer person than the people who own the things I'm griefing. "OMG U ASS STOP I WILL TEL AN ADMIN AN HE WILL BAN U". Do you honestly think that that guy's an awesome person IRL? I don't think so, wannabe psychologist.
actually, want to be a psychologist all you want, it's the gayest science. When every theory is proven true, there's something wrong. Troubled profession. Try anthropology, it's psychology with balls and sense.
The best part is if psychologists saw your hypothesis, they'd agree with it. That's how easy it is. Sure, I just disproved it by being exactly not what you said, but to a psychologist that's an "unusual case", and their theory is still solid.
So this one time in high school during lunch I built a huge tower out of styrofoam cups, and once it got up to about 7 high, other kids at other tables started throwing change at it.
Most griefers see others who are doing something that they would like to do but cannot for some reason. First response is to level the playing field.
This makes me sad.
Some griefers: creative, mastermind, destroyers-- that's okay with me. If they at least do work to grief, it's something to appreciate.
THis makes me happy.
Yeah! Bob ross!
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You are totally thinking about this signature right now. Read a book.
I watched one video where a greifer was able to cause major damage to other buildings by flooring their areas with lava or water. He did this by building underground tunnels and concealed his entrance by making a house over it. He then proceeded to connect his tunnels to other works and to a liquid source, all while avoiding detection and by acting like he wasn't the greifer. It was actually, very exciting to watch, almost like Robin Hood.
Maybe people greif because they want to outsmart an entire community or feel clever.
...Which is why most of them mindlessly delete blocks and openly flood things?
I think not.
Calling their technique mindless just because it's effective isn't that mature. For some people, they like to be secretive for the thrill, or simply don't want to risk being banned. For others, they want to do the damage fast. A griefer is there to do the damage, and if he does it, then he's doing it right.
And if someone gets mad, whether he tunneled a mile or just broke his underwater glass dome with one click, he did it right.
...Which is why most of them mindlessly delete blocks and openly flood things?
I think not.
Calling their technique mindless just because it's effective isn't that mature. For some people, they like to be secretive for the thrill, or simply don't want to risk being banned. For others, they want to do the damage fast. A griefer is there to do the damage, and if he does it, then he's doing it right.
I guess when I said "mindless", I was implying that it wasn't creative or original, even if thought actually was put into it.
It'd be nice if people stopped caring so much about griefers. Some people don't seem to realize that whatever they built can be rebuilt and that humanity isn't full of spiteful, dumb people just because someone's annoying them. Griefers aren't good either, but there's a problem on either side of the equation.
To me, building in such a way that thwarts the efforts of an attacker/griefer is a fun and interesting challenge.
If you play in an environment where people can break your things and do not plan accordingly, it's partially your fault when a single click ruins everything you have. That's my opinion anyway.
In actual practice in MC, to me the difference between a griefer and an attacker is how impersonal he is.
Does he log off when you catch him or does he fight to the death? I've seen both behaviors in creative.
I'm a strange person in that I see this as presenting an interesting psychological contrast.
I theorize that the people who log off are like arsonists/bombers, but the ones who stay and fight are like brigands.
Both of them are quite welcome in SMP to me, because there I can meet them in opposition. It's in creative that they are frustrating, because there you cant actually fight them, only ban them.
The first kind wants to break your things and make you angry, but is too much of a coward to stay and face you even in the safe context of a game. When they do get caught they log off immediately and go to another server to either calm their nerves or to continue feeding the rush they get from it.
Some of them will claim that it's all about making other people look stupid, but that's only half true. What it really is about is making others angry and then escaping unharmed from that anger, from that 'danger'. This kind of person may become a thrill seeker IRL when they get older, through either legal or illegal means. This depends largely on which aspect of the escape they feel more strongly. The escape from 'danger' or the escape from punishment. "I got away" or "I got away with it"
This kind will not grief all the time, but will sometimes take breaks to play the game normally, only griefing again when they begin to feel down on themselves and again need to feel the rush they get from escaping.
If the individual is more cowardly than most, they may not outgrow the online game griefer phase and continue doing it for a very long time.
The second type is the kind of person who either actively dislikes what he is breaking, actively dislikes the person it belongs to or dislikes the game itself. They also claim that their goal is to make you look stupid, but its really more about defeating you. They don't log off when they are caught because every second they can keep destroying things before being banned is more time that you will have to work to repair their damage. This is the kind of griefer that will employ hacks and scripts in order to defeat the safety measures you have in place.
The ones who do not play but only hack and script destroy are the ones that dislike the game on a whole and the ones who target a specific server only dislike the people who run or play on it. If one who doesn't like the entire game gets bored and starts playing, they may find that they actually enjoy it, and henceforth only attack servers with people they dislike.
This type is also more prone to genuinely enjoy destroying things and fighting for it's own sake when PvP becomes available, simply because that when they succeed they have defeated someone, and this gives them a rush similar to the one that the first type gets.
This kind is the most likely to already be a functional member of society, and is simply more aggressive than average and usually possesses high-average to well above average intelligence.
The first kind of person will continue to grief in their style no matter any context of the game, because the need they feel to do it comes from inside themselves. Escaping makes them feel more alive and gives them an excitement that nothing else can.
The second kind is less likely to keep on griefing when the game offers alternative methods of destruction, like PvP. This is because their griefing is fueled by a dislike of someone or something, and a need to prove themselves better than it/them. When the game allows them to destroy without hacks and scripts, they are more likely to take advantage of these to do so, only reverting back to them if they are defeated or as a means to solidify their own victory when they have a particular dislike of the defeated party.
The third kind of griefer is the kind that stays and pretends to be good but later turns and attacks. This kind is more like the second kind than the first, because to them it is all about outwitting you, outsmarting you. They are people who feel the need to prove themselves intellectually superior and do it by duping others into trusting them. When this kind gains the courage to take their ability into the real world, they may pursue any line of work that benefits from a well polished ability to lie convincingly. This kind is likely the type of person who would enjoy being a spy and later betraying those whose trust he has gained.
And of course, griefers may be composed of almost any combination of these three archetypes.
Commonly a griefer will feel a disconnect from those he griefs, thinking them different or beneath himself in some way, this manifests in both a motivation to prove that they are different/beneath him and in that they feel no remorse for any hurt they cause them. Many times if a griefer is confronted with someone who is connected with them in some way they will refrain from griefing, because the connection forces them to realize that they are real people just like himself.
And of course, it is not as simple as this makes it sound. Anyone who understands this sort of thing knows it's not. But to describe all the factors and elements would take more characters than this forum will allow in a single post.
To presume that anything regarding human behavior is simple is itself a gross misinterpretation and displays a lack of understanding.
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I thought you'd contracted a disease that gave you the same metabolism as an oak tree - Maggarg II
It heals all of your goddamn hearts! - kittensamurai
To me, building in such a way that thwarts the efforts of an attacker/griefer is a fun and interesting challenge.
If you play in an environment where people can break your things and do not plan accordingly, it's partially your fault when a single click ruins everything you have. That's my opinion anyway.
Quoted for truth.
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You are totally thinking about this signature right now. Read a book.
And you can't reason that -everyone- abuses people online just because they have anonymity: I am completely anonymous here, and you don't see me ruining kids' days online.
You heard that, green and red.
But you clearly did.
You're doing it wrong. It's subjective: boring for you, fun for others. Some do it as a form of trolling, others do it for the thrill of having the risk of being banned. It's similar to people doing extreme sports for the (apparent) risk of getting hurt.
Contains Pachebel's Canon made with noteblocks, a working Rubik's cube made with pistons, and the ultimate TNT cannon.
Therefore I am a horrible person IRL and take pleasure in others pain, excuse me while I twirl my mustache and eat a kitten.
I did say that griefing and personalities are related, but I don't think it's anywhere close to anything significant. I tried to come up with an example of how I thought they could (even insignificantly) be related, but to no avail.
EDIT: I bet a lot of griefers do take pleasure in others' pain, but not because they're griefers.
I think griefers are worse people for being griefers, but it's a horrid stretch of truth to generalize that all griefers are jackasses just because they annoy us. That's what we'd like to believe, but it's just not true.
I guess I'm passive aggressive in real life when someone is continually an asshole to me, but I'm not outwardly so like griefing is.
It's funny you make this long post when actually, you'd find I'm probably a much nicer person than the people who own the things I'm griefing. "OMG U ASS STOP I WILL TEL AN ADMIN AN HE WILL BAN U". Do you honestly think that that guy's an awesome person IRL? I don't think so, wannabe psychologist.
actually, want to be a psychologist all you want, it's the gayest science. When every theory is proven true, there's something wrong. Troubled profession. Try anthropology, it's psychology with balls and sense.
The best part is if psychologists saw your hypothesis, they'd agree with it. That's how easy it is. Sure, I just disproved it by being exactly not what you said, but to a psychologist that's an "unusual case", and their theory is still solid.
Most griefers see others who are doing something that they would like to do but cannot for some reason. First response is to level the playing field.
This makes me sad.
Some griefers: creative, mastermind, destroyers-- that's okay with me. If they at least do work to grief, it's something to appreciate.
THis makes me happy.
Yeah! Bob ross!
Maybe people greif because they want to outsmart an entire community or feel clever.
I think not.
Calling their technique mindless just because it's effective isn't that mature. For some people, they like to be secretive for the thrill, or simply don't want to risk being banned. For others, they want to do the damage fast. A griefer is there to do the damage, and if he does it, then he's doing it right.
And if someone gets mad, whether he tunneled a mile or just broke his underwater glass dome with one click, he did it right.
I guess when I said "mindless", I was implying that it wasn't creative or original, even if thought actually was put into it.
It'd be nice if people stopped caring so much about griefers. Some people don't seem to realize that whatever they built can be rebuilt and that humanity isn't full of spiteful, dumb people just because someone's annoying them. Griefers aren't good either, but there's a problem on either side of the equation.
If it's lavaing someone's fort and killing them while taking their loot, you're doing the smart thing. Especially in a game.
If they come and kill you and take your stuff, you miscalculated and the consequence >'d the benefit.
That's a game. an awesome, fair game.
Is it unfair to take someone's stuff in a game that permits it? or is it unfair to say someone can't take your stuff in a game that permits them to?
obviously the latter.
If you play in an environment where people can break your things and do not plan accordingly, it's partially your fault when a single click ruins everything you have. That's my opinion anyway.
In actual practice in MC, to me the difference between a griefer and an attacker is how impersonal he is.
Does he log off when you catch him or does he fight to the death? I've seen both behaviors in creative.
I'm a strange person in that I see this as presenting an interesting psychological contrast.
I theorize that the people who log off are like arsonists/bombers, but the ones who stay and fight are like brigands.
Both of them are quite welcome in SMP to me, because there I can meet them in opposition. It's in creative that they are frustrating, because there you cant actually fight them, only ban them.
The first kind wants to break your things and make you angry, but is too much of a coward to stay and face you even in the safe context of a game. When they do get caught they log off immediately and go to another server to either calm their nerves or to continue feeding the rush they get from it.
Some of them will claim that it's all about making other people look stupid, but that's only half true. What it really is about is making others angry and then escaping unharmed from that anger, from that 'danger'. This kind of person may become a thrill seeker IRL when they get older, through either legal or illegal means. This depends largely on which aspect of the escape they feel more strongly. The escape from 'danger' or the escape from punishment. "I got away" or "I got away with it"
This kind will not grief all the time, but will sometimes take breaks to play the game normally, only griefing again when they begin to feel down on themselves and again need to feel the rush they get from escaping.
If the individual is more cowardly than most, they may not outgrow the online game griefer phase and continue doing it for a very long time.
The second type is the kind of person who either actively dislikes what he is breaking, actively dislikes the person it belongs to or dislikes the game itself. They also claim that their goal is to make you look stupid, but its really more about defeating you. They don't log off when they are caught because every second they can keep destroying things before being banned is more time that you will have to work to repair their damage. This is the kind of griefer that will employ hacks and scripts in order to defeat the safety measures you have in place.
The ones who do not play but only hack and script destroy are the ones that dislike the game on a whole and the ones who target a specific server only dislike the people who run or play on it. If one who doesn't like the entire game gets bored and starts playing, they may find that they actually enjoy it, and henceforth only attack servers with people they dislike.
This type is also more prone to genuinely enjoy destroying things and fighting for it's own sake when PvP becomes available, simply because that when they succeed they have defeated someone, and this gives them a rush similar to the one that the first type gets.
This kind is the most likely to already be a functional member of society, and is simply more aggressive than average and usually possesses high-average to well above average intelligence.
The first kind of person will continue to grief in their style no matter any context of the game, because the need they feel to do it comes from inside themselves. Escaping makes them feel more alive and gives them an excitement that nothing else can.
The second kind is less likely to keep on griefing when the game offers alternative methods of destruction, like PvP. This is because their griefing is fueled by a dislike of someone or something, and a need to prove themselves better than it/them. When the game allows them to destroy without hacks and scripts, they are more likely to take advantage of these to do so, only reverting back to them if they are defeated or as a means to solidify their own victory when they have a particular dislike of the defeated party.
The third kind of griefer is the kind that stays and pretends to be good but later turns and attacks. This kind is more like the second kind than the first, because to them it is all about outwitting you, outsmarting you. They are people who feel the need to prove themselves intellectually superior and do it by duping others into trusting them. When this kind gains the courage to take their ability into the real world, they may pursue any line of work that benefits from a well polished ability to lie convincingly. This kind is likely the type of person who would enjoy being a spy and later betraying those whose trust he has gained.
And of course, griefers may be composed of almost any combination of these three archetypes.
Commonly a griefer will feel a disconnect from those he griefs, thinking them different or beneath himself in some way, this manifests in both a motivation to prove that they are different/beneath him and in that they feel no remorse for any hurt they cause them. Many times if a griefer is confronted with someone who is connected with them in some way they will refrain from griefing, because the connection forces them to realize that they are real people just like himself.
And of course, it is not as simple as this makes it sound. Anyone who understands this sort of thing knows it's not. But to describe all the factors and elements would take more characters than this forum will allow in a single post.
To presume that anything regarding human behavior is simple is itself a gross misinterpretation and displays a lack of understanding.
It heals all of your goddamn hearts! - kittensamurai
Quoted for truth.