I have heard some people complain about the infinite map introduction, and the problems it may brings, so I propose that in this thread we bring up problems and try to logically solve them. This shouldn't be a thread saying how great or terrible infinite maps will be, rather, just discussion for some of the problems we may face.
Some introductory problems that I think most people are aware of -
• No supply and demand - peope have argued that since the map will be infinite, people could just move to another area if they need supplies.
•Greifers - Greifers might be able to run across the map, increasing the server map size and potentially crashing the server.
• Isolation - Along with Supply and demand, if their is unlimited map, where's the incentive for a community?
•Moderators - How can they moderate a map if it is infinite?
• Crops and other time based functions - If time is frozen in unpopulated area's, how will the crops grow?
Whew, and written on my iPod too, well her's something to get peoe started. Please, keep your posts logical and unbiased state viable problems and solutions and how they could be implemented.
Good Luck!
(Moderators, I was a bit confused about where this thread should go, since it's part discussion and part suggestion and involves indev, so if it needs to be moved, please do so.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember that even old echoes can create new harmonies.
Who sits down and writes maniacle laughter?
• No supply and demand - people have argued that since the map will be infinite, people could just move to another area if they need supplies.
This isn't a problem at all to me.
•Greifers - Greifers might be able to run across the map, increasing the server map size and potentially crashing the server.
Limit your map in multiplayer. Notch has said that this will be possible.
• Isolation - Along with Supply and demand, if their is unlimited map, where's the incentive for a community?
Play with people who want to have a community? A community born from like-minded people instead of people who are forced together is probably going to turn out better anyway. This is assuming that you want a community at all.
•Moderators - How can they moderate a map if it is infinite?
Moderators should be teleporting between the players they have periodically if they're going to moderate at all. I don't see how servers get griefed when we have this function.
• Crops and other time based functions - If time is frozen in unpopulated area's, how will the crops grow?
I'm assuming there could eventually be some abstraction in the background, so shrubs will grow to trees after a time, and crops will progress. The game doesn't actually have to render this for it to happen, it's all a matter of changing values on the saved segments. I wouldn't worry too much about this.
• No supply and demand - people have argued that since the map will be infinite, people could just move to another area if they need supplies.
This isn't a problem at all to me.
One size doesn't fit all. People will want to trade and it just isn't possible to establish a proper trading situation with infinite resources.
Quote from thecraww »
•Greifers - Greifers might be able to run across the map, increasing the server map size and potentially crashing the server.
Limit your map in multiplayer. Notch has said that this will be possible.
Then that defeats the point of having infinite maps in the first place.
Quote from thecraww »
• Isolation - Along with Supply and demand, if their is unlimited map, where's the incentive for a community?
Play with people who want to have a community? A community born from like-minded people instead of people who are forced together is probably going to turn out better anyway. This is assuming that you want a community at all.
If you're going to isolate yourself play single player not multiplayer. But that again brings to attetion to the problem of supply and demand, and trading. People won't stick to one spot they're spread out for resources and nobody will be in the towns anymore.
Quote from thecraww »
•Moderators - How can they moderate a map if it is infinite?
Moderators should be teleporting between the players they have periodically if they're going to moderate at all. I don't see how servers get griefed when we have this function.
The problem is, with no respawn how do you get back? Think about it. I mean OPs could have access to respawn if they're OP but that gives unfair advantages.
Quote from thecraww »
• Crops and other time based functions - If time is frozen in unpopulated area's, how will the crops grow?
I'm assuming there could eventually be some abstraction in the background, so shrubs will grow to trees after a time, and crops will progress. The game doesn't actually have to render this for it to happen, it's all a matter of changing values on the saved segments. I wouldn't worry too much about this.
I have to agree on this, but it is very demanding on the server when it has to calculate new physics instantly
All kinds of things that would be too much to quote.
Just because resources are infinite doesn't mean they're always easy to obtain. Limiting your map in multiplayer doesn't defeat the purpose, because some people don't play with strangers, but groups of friends, and can trust them not to run off and fill your hard drive, which is a very difficult thing to do for most hard drives, by the way. [/runonsentenceomg]
People can still centralize in places because there will be faster ways to get around. Notch is entertaining the idea of player made teleporters, for example. OP's have unfair advantages because they're moderating the server. Don't use your advantage unfairly and you can still have fun. It's called self control.
I'm sorry, but these aren't really big problems to me. You can force players together if you want with map limits, or you can leave things infinite and see what happens. It's not like it's going to melt your computer in an hour. I think you'll be surprised at how slowly the map files will grow.
Here's something I have come up with in response to the problem of greifers - set the amount of time an area of the map needs to be Inhabited before the adjacent maps become availeble. It's not much, but it could work.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember that even old echoes can create new harmonies.
Who sits down and writes maniacle laughter?
There's some sort of model out there that shows how people tend to stick together and gather resources together but for the life of me, I can't remember what it was called...
Oh wait! yeah! The Earth.
The difference here is that people play multiplayer even after given the choice to play alone. We don't choose to be born, yet we still stick together. So if anything, people will be more drawn together than in the actual world. If they want to go all Henry David Thoreau then whatever, give them that freedom, it's a game.
I think you'll be suprised at how much it grows with each additional layer. Do the math.
16x16 = 256
lets say I go one sector to the north, 16x32 = 512, DOUBLE THE SPACE
In a large map
512x512 = 262144
512x544 = 278528 (16384 more blocks already!)
And I'm not taking into account underground space.
Okay, now you do the math.
Quote from Notch »
The biggest part of this is to split the level out into chunks. They might end up being 16^3 blocks, like the rendering chunks already are. That’d let me re-use some code instead of having two different chunk sizes at the same time, but I’ve got a feeling 16^3 chunks won’t compress very well when cached (it’s just 8kb each, uncompressed, not counting entities and dynamic tiles).
I'm not even going to try to explain (I did, but toooo many typos in the calculator). But it won't fill as fast as you think. It's only 8kb per segment, and they might even be compressed when they're cached. You need to look at the segments, not the individual blocks. The generator also won't render the entire world in one cube. It will only render the chunks that it needs.
I'm not a big fan of infinite maps, but in response to what Zuruiki said, I don't think the maps are going to grow in perfect squares. I was under the impression that chunks would only be created when needed, so you would get blobby maps as players expanded where they wanted. It would be less resource intensive and look cooler.
I don't like infinite maps because it seems somewhat arbitrary, Notch has said there will be Hell, the moon and arctic, etc., but what's past those? If I continue digging past Hell, what next? If I stock up on meat and go through the arctic wasteland, what next? An endless arctic would just be... stupid. And what could possibly be past the moon? Empty space? Would I die from lack of air? Isn't that just as much of a boundary as invisible walls, invincible monsters or the impassable chest-high fence? Same with Hell. You just don't dig past Hell.
EDIT: Also, to all the people saying to prevent RAM griefing by making a population or OP requirement, just no. This game is a sandbox in that you can do what you want, and having the game put arbitrary (I think I overuse that word :\) restrictions on world exploration isn't in the spirit of the game. I'm not a fan of the idea, but if Notch puts it in, all or nothing please. He's already adding a map space cap (or SHOULD be, if he isn't), because that is a necessity for hosting without a $200 a month server. But adding in ridiculous restrictions? Just no.
I don't like infinite maps because it seems somewhat arbitrary, Notch has said there will be Hell, the moon and arctic, etc., but what's past those? If I continue digging past Hell, what next? If I stock up on meat and go through the arctic wasteland, what next? An endless arctic would just be... stupid. And what could possibly be past the moon? Empty space? Would I die from lack of air? Isn't that just as much of a boundary as invisible walls, invincible monsters or the impassable chest-high fence? Same with Hell. You just don't dig past Hell.
I'm not really sure that's how it will be implemented. Places like Hell would probably have a ton of caves going down. Forever. The moon would probably be reached through some sort of player-made teleportation system and be a map on its own, and the arctic would most likely be generated as you go, meaning that it could end, going into woods or an ocean. It's an infinite world. Things being cold going one direction and warm going another doesn't really work.
Some introductory problems that I think most people are aware of -
• No supply and demand - peope have argued that since the map will be infinite, people could just move to another area if they need supplies.
•Greifers - Greifers might be able to run across the map, increasing the server map size and potentially crashing the server.
• Isolation - Along with Supply and demand, if their is unlimited map, where's the incentive for a community?
•Moderators - How can they moderate a map if it is infinite?
• Crops and other time based functions - If time is frozen in unpopulated area's, how will the crops grow?
Whew, and written on my iPod too, well her's something to get peoe started. Please, keep your posts logical and unbiased state viable problems and solutions and how they could be implemented.
Good Luck!
(Moderators, I was a bit confused about where this thread should go, since it's part discussion and part suggestion and involves indev, so if it needs to be moved, please do so.)
Who sits down and writes maniacle laughter?
This isn't a problem at all to me.
•Greifers - Greifers might be able to run across the map, increasing the server map size and potentially crashing the server.
Limit your map in multiplayer. Notch has said that this will be possible.
• Isolation - Along with Supply and demand, if their is unlimited map, where's the incentive for a community?
Play with people who want to have a community? A community born from like-minded people instead of people who are forced together is probably going to turn out better anyway. This is assuming that you want a community at all.
•Moderators - How can they moderate a map if it is infinite?
Moderators should be teleporting between the players they have periodically if they're going to moderate at all. I don't see how servers get griefed when we have this function.
• Crops and other time based functions - If time is frozen in unpopulated area's, how will the crops grow?
I'm assuming there could eventually be some abstraction in the background, so shrubs will grow to trees after a time, and crops will progress. The game doesn't actually have to render this for it to happen, it's all a matter of changing values on the saved segments. I wouldn't worry too much about this.
One size doesn't fit all. People will want to trade and it just isn't possible to establish a proper trading situation with infinite resources.
Then that defeats the point of having infinite maps in the first place.
If you're going to isolate yourself play single player not multiplayer. But that again brings to attetion to the problem of supply and demand, and trading. People won't stick to one spot they're spread out for resources and nobody will be in the towns anymore.
The problem is, with no respawn how do you get back? Think about it. I mean OPs could have access to respawn if they're OP but that gives unfair advantages.
I have to agree on this, but it is very demanding on the server when it has to calculate new physics instantly
Just because resources are infinite doesn't mean they're always easy to obtain. Limiting your map in multiplayer doesn't defeat the purpose, because some people don't play with strangers, but groups of friends, and can trust them not to run off and fill your hard drive, which is a very difficult thing to do for most hard drives, by the way. [/runonsentenceomg]
People can still centralize in places because there will be faster ways to get around. Notch is entertaining the idea of player made teleporters, for example. OP's have unfair advantages because they're moderating the server. Don't use your advantage unfairly and you can still have fun. It's called self control.
I'm sorry, but these aren't really big problems to me. You can force players together if you want with map limits, or you can leave things infinite and see what happens. It's not like it's going to melt your computer in an hour. I think you'll be surprised at how slowly the map files will grow.
Who sits down and writes maniacle laughter?
16x16 = 256
lets say I go one sector to the north, 16x32 = 512, DOUBLE THE SPACE
In a large map
512x512 = 262144
512x544 = 278528 (16384 more blocks already!)
And I'm not taking into account underground space.
Oh wait! yeah! The Earth.
The difference here is that people play multiplayer even after given the choice to play alone. We don't choose to be born, yet we still stick together. So if anything, people will be more drawn together than in the actual world. If they want to go all Henry David Thoreau then whatever, give them that freedom, it's a game.
Okay, now you do the math.
I'm not even going to try to explain (I did, but toooo many typos in the calculator). But it won't fill as fast as you think. It's only 8kb per segment, and they might even be compressed when they're cached. You need to look at the segments, not the individual blocks. The generator also won't render the entire world in one cube. It will only render the chunks that it needs.
I don't like infinite maps because it seems somewhat arbitrary, Notch has said there will be Hell, the moon and arctic, etc., but what's past those? If I continue digging past Hell, what next? If I stock up on meat and go through the arctic wasteland, what next? An endless arctic would just be... stupid. And what could possibly be past the moon? Empty space? Would I die from lack of air? Isn't that just as much of a boundary as invisible walls, invincible monsters or the impassable chest-high fence? Same with Hell. You just don't dig past Hell.
EDIT: Also, to all the people saying to prevent RAM griefing by making a population or OP requirement, just no. This game is a sandbox in that you can do what you want, and having the game put arbitrary (I think I overuse that word :\) restrictions on world exploration isn't in the spirit of the game. I'm not a fan of the idea, but if Notch puts it in, all or nothing please. He's already adding a map space cap (or SHOULD be, if he isn't), because that is a necessity for hosting without a $200 a month server. But adding in ridiculous restrictions? Just no.
I'm not really sure that's how it will be implemented. Places like Hell would probably have a ton of caves going down. Forever. The moon would probably be reached through some sort of player-made teleportation system and be a map on its own, and the arctic would most likely be generated as you go, meaning that it could end, going into woods or an ocean. It's an infinite world. Things being cold going one direction and warm going another doesn't really work.