I feel completely hopeless. I'm going around the forums and the poll comments, and it seems like every single person in the entire universe seems to be jumping right on the infinite world bandwagon without giving it even the slightest second thought. There are some very negative factors, if you ask me, and I just really want to discuss them because I'm so angry that all this has happened so quickly: in the course of less than 24 hours, Notch has decided to totally redo 2 months worth of the game's code... it seems completely rushed and not thought out to me.
-The world will become very much less dynamic. Changes in the world will only occur directly around you; basically, all time freezes except for in a 64x64 or so area around you. If you wander away from your town, your farms stop growing, the river stops flowing, none of your trees grow, the livestock stop eating. So will wandering away from your settlement to go on an epic journey even be worth it? Or if you set an enemy building on fire and then run away, the building will simply stop burning until someone wanders near it again! Very bad.
-In multiplayer, confrontations between players may become rather infrequent, since players will be able to just wander as far away from each other as they want.
-And last for now, but in my mind, certainly not least: resources and land space will be infinite. That may sound good at first, but it is very very bad for multiplayer. Players will never have to compete with each other for resources or land. There will be no fighting for control of a diamond mine, because it will be very easy to just wander away and find another one somewhere else. Players will never have to fight over space to expand their towns, because space will be in infinite supply. There will be no point in attacking an enemy town. There will be no reason to compete. Competition between players is a major aspect of multiplayer. If there's no competition, multiplayer will be less fun.
Since the majority of the players are in favor of infinite worlds, you will probably all just get mad at me. Well, I'm sorry. I don't know why, but I have always been worrisome, especially because of big changes. I know it's Notch's game, but I wish he would just wait a while longer to think more of this through.
Nobody needs that much space. Nobody needs infinite resources. This encourages isolationism and avoiding others to benefit your own settlement. You'll never have to say "that guy has something I need, I'll kill him and take it". It's practically singleplayer. The dumbest thing is we don't even know how the game would have played on regular sized maps. Who's to say that wouldn't have been plenty? At the very least, release MP Survival without infinite maps and see if it's really necessary to add them.
I'm so glad some people agree with me. Maybe if even more people post here expressing these concerns, we could e-mail Notch the link to this thread.
When I woke up this morning, I checked the dev blog to see how this whole infinite map thing was playing out, and I really was devastated to see that Notch had already decided to put infinite maps in. It bugged me all day. I'm really unhappy that Notch is already laying out the plans so quickly. I hope he will just wait a bit longer to consider everything about infinite maps...
What about creating walls? If you want to create a limited amount of supplies, just make a adminium wall all the way to the bedrock and up to the sky. Notch said in one of his blog posts that he was going to try to make it possible for the sun to move across the landscape, and so maybe he could devise a system to grow the cropps based on when the sun moves. I may not completely support infinite worlds, but I would rather work out the problems and maybe give notch solutions rather than just whine about it. I know people are against suggestions that just state what a person wants rather than explain it, so why can't we figure out and help? ( I know I probobly going to get flames for this, but please try to understand my point of view)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember that even old echoes can create new harmonies.
Who sits down and writes maniacle laughter?
I don't see the point of infinite maps on single player, i never in my life was able to fill 100% of a map playing alone.
I really don't see to much of a point in infinte maps even in multiplayer, i can only see a shitload of new problems comming from this and another 2 months to fix them.
Using infinite maps, server won't care enough to make really cool landscape since players would just go away from that place very soon.
I really like the way the game plays now "It's not the best cards that count, its how you use it", so far you had to create stuff by your needs, there is lake in your way? drain it. Cave flooded with lava? Create a way to unflood it.
With infine maps you go "flooded cave? let's keep walking" "i don't like in here, to much water. Keep walking"
I don't hate the ideia, but i see no point and think that take some of the fun of the game, but if it has to be i'm ok with it.
He's just gonna try something out, guys. If it doesn't work out, or if after it all we find it out kinda sucks, he'll likely just revert to an older version (like today's) and continue on.
Woah woah woahhhhh, calm down here people! He's making /more/ options, not taking more /away/.
Notch is going to make finite maps possible. All of you nay sayers can make a multiplayer server with a limited space or invisible walls or whatever. You really don't need to lobby to take away our freedom because you want restrictions. You guys can have your little box worlds of isolation and limited resources, and hell, I'll probably play on one of those servers with you some time when I need my fix of that type of game.
I may not completely support infinite worlds, but I would rather work out the problems and maybe give notch solutions rather than just whine about it
Well, I'm not trying to whine. The problems posted here are some serious problems with infinite maps that have no solutions that I can think of.
He's just gonna try something out, guys. If it doesn't work out, or if after it all we find it out kinda sucks, he'll likely just revert to an older version (like today's) and continue on.
Investing 2 months to rewrite a big part of the game isn't just "trying something out." I personally think Notch is jumping into this whole infinite map thing too quickly, and some people agree with me.
I feel he hasn't actually even considered the implications, I can imagine some people thinking "INFINITE MAPS OK KEWLL IMMA HOPST A SRVER WITH DEM" then coming onto the forums whining that their computer wont start because the harddrive and/or RAM and/or CPU got raped by a griefer map flooding.
There are no great benefits to the system. The only benefit is large maps. That's it. I'm all for developing the map loading tech so long as the server tracks all the world changes still. In Singleplayer it should warn extensively about very large maps raping your computer in the butthole.
I may not completely support infinite worlds, but I would rather work out the problems and maybe give notch solutions rather than just whine about it
Well, I'm not trying to whine. The problems posted here are some serious problems with infinite maps that have no solutions that I can think of.
He's just gonna try something out, guys. If it doesn't work out, or if after it all we find it out kinda sucks, he'll likely just revert to an older version (like today's) and continue on.
Investing 2 months to rewrite a big part of the game isn't just "trying something out." I personally think Notch is jumping into this whole infinite map thing too quickly, and some people agree with me.
Well if Notch ever wants to do something like this, he's trying to do it early so he isn't bogged down later. I really don't think you guys are thinking of the future here. Having more space will allow Notch to do some pretty awesome things in the game. Things that just aren't possible without more room. I have every confidence in him that it will turn out spectacular and that you guys will have been distressed over nothing. There will be limits for those who want them, and he's already solved almost all the problems I threw at him in an email. Notch is an excellent developer and he's trying to improve his game. Why are so many people afraid of this?
I just posted a thread to discuss possible solutions to these problems, so let's leave the naysayers alone before this thread turns into an argument and gets locked. People are entitled to their opinions I guess, even if they do want to make me act like a 5-year old and scream...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember that even old echoes can create new harmonies.
Who sits down and writes maniacle laughter?
Sure, it's two months investment. Them's the breaks. It's a game in development after all, certainly far from finished. It's acceptable for him to invest time into these sorts of experiments that may ultimately get us a better game. Or not. We just can't say.
He's the one who brought it up after all. He says he thought he could do it. He asked us and a good chunk of people think it'd be a cool thing to see.
I can agree that maybe he hyped it a bit and got everyone really excited, but I think he really wanted to do it anyway. He can feel free. This ain't my project and I don't write his schedule.
Besides, this goes toward Notch's experience as a programmer. There are probably some things he could take away from this and apply to updates down the line, or toward other projects in the future which I'm sure a lot of us will likely follow. :tongue.gif:
If it's not working out, we'll find out soon enough. You know, long before we're off to the two month thing.
...in the course of less than 24 hours, Notch has decided to totally redo 2 months worth of the game's code... it seems completely rushed and not thought out to me.
I guarantee you that Notch did not just sit down one night and say "hmm, I think I'll rewrite half the game". He's likely been dwelling on the basic idea of infinite maps for some time and finally decided to go ahead with it. Why? My guess is that when Notch first began working on Minecraft, he had no idea how large it would become in scope and popularity. Now with over 5,000 premium players and ~100 people a day purchasing the game, it's turned into something else entirely. Notch sees large amounts of people talking about building grand kingdoms and waging epic wars and all manner of projects and possibilities that the current limited map sizes cannot support. It is not surprising that Notch would revise his vision of survival multiplayer to accommodate the direction his players want it to go.
Quote from andy11493 »
-The world will become very much less dynamic. Changes in the world will only occur directly around you; basically, all time freezes except for in a 64x64 or so area around you. If you wander away from your town, your farms stop growing, the river stops flowing, none of your trees grow, the livestock stop eating. So will wandering away from your settlement to go on an epic journey even be worth it? Or if you set an enemy building on fire and then run away, the building will simply stop burning until someone wanders near it again! Very bad.
He didn't explicitly state that only the specific area that the player is in gets updated, just that only areas near the player would be updated. That could mean anything from just the player's current area up to a number of surrounding areas. If updates are limited to only a 64x64 area around a player, then that is a little bleh.
Quote from andy11493 »
-In multiplayer, confrontations between players may become rather infrequent, since players will be able to just wander as far away from each other as they want.
Ah...there will be no shortage of players seeking out confrontation against others. Just see this thread. Another thing to consider is that people generally play multiplayer because they want to interact with other players and will usually attempt to do so, even if they don't have to. If they didn't, they would just play single-player.
Quote from andy11493 »
-And last for now, but in my mind, certainly not least: [b]resources and land space will be infinite[/b]. That may sound good at first, but it is very very bad for multiplayer. Players will never have to compete with each other for resources or land. There will be no fighting for control of a diamond mine, because it will be very easy to just wander away and find another one somewhere else.[/b]
This can somewhat solved by tweaking the rarity of resources or having certain resources spawn only in certain climates. For example, considering how rare diamond is, I think many people would see attacking their neighbor who is known to have a diamond mine as preferable to attempting to find one on their own. Regardless, dynamics between players [b]are[/b] going to happen because that is why people play multiplayer.
Guys, People will still compete! Why dig 1000 blocks down looking for diamonds when that guy has diamond mine? I would attack.
This idea will expand the possibilites of minecraft!
Nothing over the internet will be like it!
I kind of wish there was a sage option in this forum, ah well. Gauphastas and Meren have it pretty much down pat. Something that needs to be addressed above all else though is that this is Notch's game, he's programming it, designing it and it is his baby. Too many developers have their creativity stifled by their publishers, and it ruins a lot of games with potential. Notch is free now, he can do what he likes and we should be happy for that, it's going to lead to a better game. What he doesn't need is his public jumping down his throat for trying something innovative.
As the great (listen to his stand-up routines they're amazing) Bill Cosby once said:
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."
Also, Zero Punctuation's Yahtzee Croshaw had a good tip concerning fans, but I don't want to offend people. I'll let you look it up.
THIS IS AWESOME! I can go to the extreme edge of every server, flood it all and no one will notice till some one else gets near the edge! And by being an inconsiderate **** I'm going to tell notch the idea is kewl because I have no intention of ever hosting a server and don't give a crap about memory use on my side, then I will whine about lag and fog when it is complete.
Oh and woop de doo funking art in indev, yet some thing else that is forced to look ugly and pixelated because apparently its not retro and minecraft if it isn't, BRING BACK DOCK!
Also, Zero Punctuation's Yahtzee Croshaw had a good tip concerning fans, but I don't want to offend people. I'll let you look it up.
Something along the lines of, "Fans are whiney little dip-shits who are never satisfied with anything you do and the sooner you block them out, the happier you will be"
-The world will become very much less dynamic. Changes in the world will only occur directly around you; basically, all time freezes except for in a 64x64 or so area around you. If you wander away from your town, your farms stop growing, the river stops flowing, none of your trees grow, the livestock stop eating. So will wandering away from your settlement to go on an epic journey even be worth it? Or if you set an enemy building on fire and then run away, the building will simply stop burning until someone wanders near it again! Very bad.
-In multiplayer, confrontations between players may become rather infrequent, since players will be able to just wander as far away from each other as they want.
-And last for now, but in my mind, certainly not least: resources and land space will be infinite. That may sound good at first, but it is very very bad for multiplayer. Players will never have to compete with each other for resources or land. There will be no fighting for control of a diamond mine, because it will be very easy to just wander away and find another one somewhere else. Players will never have to fight over space to expand their towns, because space will be in infinite supply. There will be no point in attacking an enemy town. There will be no reason to compete. Competition between players is a major aspect of multiplayer. If there's no competition, multiplayer will be less fun.
Since the majority of the players are in favor of infinite worlds, you will probably all just get mad at me. Well, I'm sorry. I don't know why, but I have always been worrisome, especially because of big changes. I know it's Notch's game, but I wish he would just wait a while longer to think more of this through.
Although it WOULD be ok in SOME CASES, like a long-lasting singleplayer survival game... But other than that, this is very much wasted time.
Especially if it isn't optional.
but yea WOW BIG NUMBERS IMPRESS ME THIS IDEA ROX
When I woke up this morning, I checked the dev blog to see how this whole infinite map thing was playing out, and I really was devastated to see that Notch had already decided to put infinite maps in. It bugged me all day. I'm really unhappy that Notch is already laying out the plans so quickly. I hope he will just wait a bit longer to consider everything about infinite maps...
Who sits down and writes maniacle laughter?
I really don't see to much of a point in infinte maps even in multiplayer, i can only see a shitload of new problems comming from this and another 2 months to fix them.
Using infinite maps, server won't care enough to make really cool landscape since players would just go away from that place very soon.
I really like the way the game plays now "It's not the best cards that count, its how you use it", so far you had to create stuff by your needs, there is lake in your way? drain it. Cave flooded with lava? Create a way to unflood it.
With infine maps you go "flooded cave? let's keep walking" "i don't like in here, to much water. Keep walking"
I don't hate the ideia, but i see no point and think that take some of the fun of the game, but if it has to be i'm ok with it.
Notch is going to make finite maps possible. All of you nay sayers can make a multiplayer server with a limited space or invisible walls or whatever. You really don't need to lobby to take away our freedom because you want restrictions. You guys can have your little box worlds of isolation and limited resources, and hell, I'll probably play on one of those servers with you some time when I need my fix of that type of game.
Notch is gonna make eeeeveryone happy. Seriously.
Well, I'm not trying to whine. The problems posted here are some serious problems with infinite maps that have no solutions that I can think of.
Investing 2 months to rewrite a big part of the game isn't just "trying something out." I personally think Notch is jumping into this whole infinite map thing too quickly, and some people agree with me.
There are no great benefits to the system. The only benefit is large maps. That's it. I'm all for developing the map loading tech so long as the server tracks all the world changes still. In Singleplayer it should warn extensively about very large maps raping your computer in the butthole.
Well if Notch ever wants to do something like this, he's trying to do it early so he isn't bogged down later. I really don't think you guys are thinking of the future here. Having more space will allow Notch to do some pretty awesome things in the game. Things that just aren't possible without more room. I have every confidence in him that it will turn out spectacular and that you guys will have been distressed over nothing. There will be limits for those who want them, and he's already solved almost all the problems I threw at him in an email. Notch is an excellent developer and he's trying to improve his game. Why are so many people afraid of this?
Who sits down and writes maniacle laughter?
He's the one who brought it up after all. He says he thought he could do it. He asked us and a good chunk of people think it'd be a cool thing to see.
I can agree that maybe he hyped it a bit and got everyone really excited, but I think he really wanted to do it anyway. He can feel free. This ain't my project and I don't write his schedule.
Besides, this goes toward Notch's experience as a programmer. There are probably some things he could take away from this and apply to updates down the line, or toward other projects in the future which I'm sure a lot of us will likely follow. :tongue.gif:
If it's not working out, we'll find out soon enough. You know, long before we're off to the two month thing.
I guarantee you that Notch did not just sit down one night and say "hmm, I think I'll rewrite half the game". He's likely been dwelling on the basic idea of infinite maps for some time and finally decided to go ahead with it. Why? My guess is that when Notch first began working on Minecraft, he had no idea how large it would become in scope and popularity. Now with over 5,000 premium players and ~100 people a day purchasing the game, it's turned into something else entirely. Notch sees large amounts of people talking about building grand kingdoms and waging epic wars and all manner of projects and possibilities that the current limited map sizes cannot support. It is not surprising that Notch would revise his vision of survival multiplayer to accommodate the direction his players want it to go.
He didn't explicitly state that only the specific area that the player is in gets updated, just that only areas near the player would be updated. That could mean anything from just the player's current area up to a number of surrounding areas. If updates are limited to only a 64x64 area around a player, then that is a little bleh.
Ah...there will be no shortage of players seeking out confrontation against others. Just see this thread. Another thing to consider is that people generally play multiplayer because they want to interact with other players and will usually attempt to do so, even if they don't have to. If they didn't, they would just play single-player.
This can somewhat solved by tweaking the rarity of resources or having certain resources spawn only in certain climates. For example, considering how rare diamond is, I think many people would see attacking their neighbor who is known to have a diamond mine as preferable to attempting to find one on their own. Regardless, dynamics between players [b]are[/b] going to happen because that is why people play multiplayer.
This idea will expand the possibilites of minecraft!
Nothing over the internet will be like it!
Just wait and see, maybe youll like it, i do!
As the great (listen to his stand-up routines they're amazing) Bill Cosby once said:
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."
Also, Zero Punctuation's Yahtzee Croshaw had a good tip concerning fans, but I don't want to offend people. I'll let you look it up.
Oh and woop de doo funking art in indev, yet some thing else that is forced to look ugly and pixelated because apparently its not retro and minecraft if it isn't, BRING BACK DOCK!
Also agreed with TKoopa post.
Something along the lines of, "Fans are whiney little dip-shits who are never satisfied with anything you do and the sooner you block them out, the happier you will be"
How about, EAT MY COCK! :biggrin.gif:
Congratulations on being an asshole, asshole.