It at is impressive. Interesting to hear "Fix for worlds generating slightly differently every time even with the same seed." I thought it might be a bug. But when it generated a whole new mountain on your near perfect seed for me the second time, it kinda blew my mind. I'm glad it generated a good way!
Thank you for your comment, as it has cleared up my mind.
The thing is, the choice your describing, choosing between a seed with lots of biomes, and choosing one with a few is pretty much already there in this update(tu32). and adding just a plain old "Large Biomes" option, would complete it.
I have turned my prediction into a---
SCENARIO FOR DUMMIES. No offense intended
pretend tu32 has come out and then later they added a Large Biomes option
Warning: some of the details in the below scenario are not verified but just there to show the concept
Alice wants lots of biomes in her world, so she loads a world leaving the seed blank.
The game picks 5 random seeds. It then analyzes them and sees which one has "the best biome spread"
She gets a world with a decent amount of biomes.
Bob wants a normal world without too many biomes. He types in something random, "hilariousmonkey", or "567899954".
He gets an average seed like how they were in tu31.
Carl isn't wants just a few biomes. he either chooses his own seed or chooses a random one. But then he chooses the "Large Biomes". He gets a world with bioes 4 times as large(PC size).
But what specifically is a "better spread of biomes?" To some it would be having only 1 of each biome somewhere in their world (larger biomes) and to others it would be having small dots of biomes that blend in with each other (like it is now, say, little bits of plains breaking up smaller stands of trees - which is something I find more realistic than big solid forests). To analyze something, computers need specific parameters to fill and either the result fills those criteria or it doesn't. It would take a lot of defined criteria for a computer to rank seeds as having something as vague and as based on personal opinion as a "better biome spread."
As Wolfhusband indicates, "better" has to be given a value... and I'm just suggesting that value is most likely to be a more or less than dividing line based on the total number of biomes. Where Wolfhusband and I are differing is that I'm saying that since 4J used the term "select" - I'm also saying it's the player who will select what side of that dividing line they want their world to be on... Otherwise, 4J would just be making the generation of one sort of world (say, a single-biome world) completely impossible in favor of making the game always deliver more biomes in all worlds that it generates. I think they will shoot to improve the chances of a "survival island" seed as well (if the player selects it) rather than just cut them out of the generation. If they just up the minimum number of biomes in the seed generator, then the game would have nothing to "select" between any more than the player would... so I don't think they would have used the world "select" in their description if that is what they would have done.
This is what I think "a better spread of biomes" means.
At face level it might mean that it will typically choose seeds with more biomes than before. But it seems more liklely and makes sense for it to have a better chance of producing seeds with more biome types.
X- a set number such as 5
The game picks X random seeds. It then analyzes them and sees which one has the most types of biomes and picks that one, if more than one are in the lead for biome diversity, then it will randomly pick one of them.
so the game is selecting which seed it wants to us
So no seed is completely impossible to get, yes some are extremely hard to get, but not impossible. All single biome worlds(the least variance) would be equally rare, needing the game to examine X seeds all one biome, and then pick a random one.
I think they are leaning in favor towards people who want more biomes, because there are people complaining about "Water Worlds" and "not finding mesa biome" and the like.
But If this is the case, Water World People have no reason to freak out, because you can still use a custom seed, instead of letting it generate a seed, and your chances of finding watery worlds and such will be the same as they are now.
again. This is my prediction. Whether my foresite will prove correct is a mystery right now.
And sorry If i am coming across as hot-headed.
I am starting to worry that I am going on too much,
But then again, this is helping me refine mine explanatory/communication skills.
This is what I think "a better spread of biomes" means.
At face level it might mean that it will typically choose seeds with more biomes than before. But it seems more liklely and makes sense for it to have a better chance of producing seeds with more biome types.
X- a set number such as 5
The game picks X random seeds. It then analyzes them and sees which one has the most types of biomes and picks that one, if more than one are in the lead for biome diversity, then it will randomly pick one of them.
so the game is selecting which seed it wants to us
So no seed is completely impossible to get, yes some are extremely hard to get, but not impossible. All single biome worlds(the least variance) would be equally rare, needing the game to examine X seeds all one biome, and then pick a random one.
I think they are leaning in favor towards people who want more biomes, because there are people complaining about "Water Worlds" and "not finding mesa biome" and the like.
But If this is the case, Water World People have no reason to freak out, because you can still use a custom seed, instead of letting it generate a seed, and your chances of finding watery worlds and such will be the same as they are now.
again. This is my prediction. Whether my foresite will prove correct is a mystery right now.
And sorry If i am coming across as hot-headed.
I am starting to worry that I am going on too much,
But then again, this is helping me refine mine explanatory/communication skills.
I'm not freaking out... the chances of generating a water only seed right now are as unlikely as generating a seed with all biomes and far less likely than generating a seed with all basic blocks (all essential biomes). The shear number of different biomes available with most of the added ones involving more trees (forest) makes it more unlikely than before. Instead of a 1 in 23 chance, it's now a 2 in 61 chance that an ocean biome will generate any where on a map... the odds of only ocean biomes generating on a map is now extremely small. People think there are more "water worlds" being generated with TU31, but that's not the case. I've yet to generate any world without at least 1 type of forest in it... which is too many trees for true survival island. I have generated many, many worlds that are over 80% landmass and a couple that were in the range of 95% landmass. Typing in a seed string doesn't improve those odds because when you're typing in word strings you have no idea what number string the game will "translate" them into... there is no decryption key that can connect the two together. It's only when someone discovers a seed by "accident" that you can predictably type in a string with the intention of getting a certain result... and that can be done whether or not the seed that was "discovered" was first generated randomly or with a word string. There are no "custom" seeds.
What we're saying though is inherently different. You have the game picking 5 seeds out of all possible random seeds and then picking the most biomes out of those five. I'm saying out of all possible seeds that fit the criteria (e.g. over or under so many biomes), the game generates 1 and only 1... randomly (i.e. it doesn't select anything). The game doesn't have to analyze or select what it does because the player's selection of one or the other option just tells the game to use either Algorithm 1 (which only generates the seeds with more than so many biomes) or Algorithm 2 (which only generates seeds with less than so many biomes). Since Algorithm 2 only generates the seeds with less than so many biomes, it could also be written to generally generate only larger sized biomes. Algorithm 1 would have to generate smaller biomes in order to fit more in the map. It's the player making the choice/selection - Do I sacrifice biome size to get biome variety or do I sacrifice biome variety to get biome size?
FYI these are just some things that are strongly influencing my opinion....
I want the PC seed generation to be similar to console, so you can preview them.
I like the idea of improving the diversity of the biomes, but I don't want the biomes to get any smaller. they are already shrunken enough.
I don't think the generation has to be the same as PC to preview seeds... Chunkbase (or whoever) simply needs to write a proper biome finder app for whatever algorithm 4J actually uses. It's really just a lazy out that they get away with using the PC algorithms to generate what they claim are Xbox/console maps.
Large biomes are not prevented from generating now... they just consist of several same biomes placed side by side (like building blocks). Wolfhusband generated a map in TU31 where the mesa biome(s) covered a full 1/3 of the map. Where I notice the small biomes happening are mostly with little bits of plains breaking up the bits of forest... and I kind of like that... it's natural. Every real forest I've been in has clearings and meadows scattered throughout it. Smaller biomes actually allow for more natural transitions between biomes on any sized map... but what people prefer should be their own choice... and that's why I prefer the idea of the player selecting which way they want to go on the matter.
Actually, I think one factor that has been preventing the Xbox 360 worlds from generating "all biome" worlds is something that is part of the PC algorithm. I'm quoting an article that Mojang wrote when they brought in the new biomes on PC... so this IS part of the PC algorithm):
"Biomes have been put into four main categories: snow-covered, cold, medium, and dry/warm. Biomes will avoid getting placed next to a biome that is too different to itself (sometimes this still happens, but it's very rare now and not all over the place)." https://mojang.com/2013/08/minecraft-world-generator-update/
That means that, within our 862 x 862 block area, there is going to be a tendency to have biomes from one category or two categories rather than change radically in that distance to cover the whole climate range and all categories (which would mean putting two biomes that are "too different" beside each other).
I don't think the generation has to be the same as PC to preview seeds... Chunkbase (or whoever) simply needs to write a proper biome finder app for whatever algorithm 4J actually uses. It's really just a lazy out that they get away with using the PC algorithms to generate what they claim are Xbox/console maps.
Large biomes are not prevented from generating now... they just consist of several same biomes placed side by side (like building blocks). Wolfhusband generated a map in TU31 where the mesa biome(s) covered a full 1/3 of the map. Where I notice the small biomes happening are mostly with little bits of plains breaking up the bits of forest... and I kind of like that... it's natural. Every real forest I've been in has clearings and meadows scattered throughout it. Smaller biomes actually allow for more natural transitions between biomes on any sized map... but what people prefer should be their own choice... and that's why I prefer the idea of the player selecting which way they want to go on the matter.
Actually, I think one factor that has been preventing the Xbox 360 worlds from generating "all biome" worlds is something that is part of the PC algorithm. I'm quoting an article that Mojang wrote when they brought in the new biomes on PC... so this IS part of the PC algorithm):
"Biomes have been put into four main categories: snow-covered, cold, medium, and dry/warm. Biomes will avoid getting placed next to a biome that is too different to itself (sometimes this still happens, but it's very rare now and not all over the place)." https://mojang.com/2013/08/minecraft-world-generator-update/
That means that, within our 862 x 862 block area, there is going to be a tendency to have biomes from one category or two categories rather than change radically in that distance to cover the whole climate range and all categories (which would mean putting two biomes that are "too different" beside each other).
I support that fact. I have seen ice spikes right next to jungle and savannah, but only on one seed in the many I've searched. I did recently see a jungle that was in part of a snow biome, or savannah right next to frozen ocean but those are rare too. The only way a seed could theoretically generate all 61 biomes is if it were divided into the 4 corners of the map. And that would be on a mostly land seed. But unfortunately I think crasy has it right. The generator will most likely do exactly what was said in the changelog "generate seeds with a better spread of biomes".
This will do 3 things. It makes finding a good mix of biomes easier, makes survival island harder and makes all-in-one seeds harder just as well. If the program used to determine what seed is used only has parameters to select a seed with the most biomes (using 5 seeds or whatever it may be) thenperfect worlds should start popping up pretty easily. But if the program only has to select any given seed so long as it has x amount of biomes without a need to scan multiple seeds simultaniously then survival and perfection will be extremely hard to come by. Just depends on exactly how this new program runs.
As for ocean worlds, I've seen my share of seeds that were 90-95% water but none without some type of forest. I had found a seed some time ago that had 7 islands and literally only 7 trees but I passed it up. Didn't think anyone would even want a go at that
I support that fact. I have seen ice spikes right next to jungle and savannah, but only on one seed in the many I've searched. I did recently see a jungle that was in part of a snow biome, or savannah right next to frozen ocean but those are rare too. The only way a seed could theoretically generate all 61 biomes is if it were divided into the 4 corners of the map. And that would be on a mostly land seed. But unfortunately I think crasy has it right. The generator will most likely do exactly what was said in the changelog "generate seeds with a better spread of biomes".
This will do 3 things. It makes finding a good mix of biomes easier, makes survival island harder and makes all-in-one seeds harder just as well. If the program used to determine what seed is used only has parameters to select a seed with the most biomes (using 5 seeds or whatever it may be) thenperfect worlds should start popping up pretty easily. But if the program only has to select any given seed so long as it has x amount of biomes without a need to scan multiple seeds simultaniously then survival and perfection will be extremely hard to come by. Just depends on exactly how this new program runs.
As for ocean worlds, I've seen my share of seeds that were 90-95% water but none without some type of forest. I had found a seed some time ago that had 7 islands and literally only 7 trees but I passed it up. Didn't think anyone would even want a go at that
There are actually quite a few of us "survival islanders." All snow plains survival is fun as well. My very first seed way back in TU2 had a huge tundra area (about 3/4 of the map)... I miss it. We'll just have to wait to see. I think asking an Xbox 360 to analyze for "better" without overheating is asking a lot of it... going to slow world generation load times down significantly.
There are a few all snow seeds floating around actually. Seems to be the most common type of biomes. I'd have to dig through my list but I know I wrote one down that had an enormous ice spike similar in size to that mesa seed I found
Chunkbase is not accurate for pre-gen. I don't know how chunkbase is current gen , but I have tested about 30 seeds from chunkbase. Most of the biomes are usually just out of place but sometimes just are not there to begin with or are on a differenet part of the map. If you just want to attempt to show the biomes, fine. Just it will not be an accurate representation.
Yes I know. Its just a general idea of how the seeds might turn out.
From my experience, chunkbase is virtually useless for biome finding. It is however scary accurate on most occasions when looking for jungle temples. I found several excellent double jungle temple seeds for me and my kids this way, so each can have their own base with good starting resources.
I have found they make excellent homes with a cellar that is easily incorporated by removing the "secret" room of stuff and digging so there is a 3 high ceiling and expend out to its farther most points
The update is out on both ps3 and ps4 so hopefully will be up on xbox later today.
So far I have noticed that mountains are not as flat when comparing seeds created before and after the patch which is a good thing. I just hope that when I find an extreme hills biome they go above the clouds.
It at is impressive. Interesting to hear "Fix for worlds generating slightly differently every time even with the same seed." I thought it might be a bug. But when it generated a whole new mountain on your near perfect seed for me the second time, it kinda blew my mind. I'm glad it generated a good way!
But what specifically is a "better spread of biomes?" To some it would be having only 1 of each biome somewhere in their world (larger biomes) and to others it would be having small dots of biomes that blend in with each other (like it is now, say, little bits of plains breaking up smaller stands of trees - which is something I find more realistic than big solid forests). To analyze something, computers need specific parameters to fill and either the result fills those criteria or it doesn't. It would take a lot of defined criteria for a computer to rank seeds as having something as vague and as based on personal opinion as a "better biome spread."
As Wolfhusband indicates, "better" has to be given a value... and I'm just suggesting that value is most likely to be a more or less than dividing line based on the total number of biomes. Where Wolfhusband and I are differing is that I'm saying that since 4J used the term "select" - I'm also saying it's the player who will select what side of that dividing line they want their world to be on... Otherwise, 4J would just be making the generation of one sort of world (say, a single-biome world) completely impossible in favor of making the game always deliver more biomes in all worlds that it generates. I think they will shoot to improve the chances of a "survival island" seed as well (if the player selects it) rather than just cut them out of the generation. If they just up the minimum number of biomes in the seed generator, then the game would have nothing to "select" between any more than the player would... so I don't think they would have used the world "select" in their description if that is what they would have done.
I kinda said this before.
This is what I think "a better spread of biomes" means.
At face level it might mean that it will typically choose seeds with more biomes than before. But it seems more liklely and makes sense for it to have a better chance of producing seeds with more biome types.
X- a set number such as 5
The game picks X random seeds. It then analyzes them and sees which one has the most types of biomes and picks that one, if more than one are in the lead for biome diversity, then it will randomly pick one of them.
so the game is selecting which seed it wants to us
So no seed is completely impossible to get, yes some are extremely hard to get, but not impossible. All single biome worlds(the least variance) would be equally rare, needing the game to examine X seeds all one biome, and then pick a random one.
I think they are leaning in favor towards people who want more biomes, because there are people complaining about "Water Worlds" and "not finding mesa biome" and the like.
But If this is the case, Water World People have no reason to freak out, because you can still use a custom seed, instead of letting it generate a seed, and your chances of finding watery worlds and such will be the same as they are now.
again. This is my prediction. Whether my foresite will prove correct is a mystery right now.
And sorry If i am coming across as hot-headed.
I am starting to worry that I am going on too much,
But then again, this is helping me refine mine explanatory/communication skills.
Slytherin is greener than Ravenclaw.
I'm not freaking out... the chances of generating a water only seed right now are as unlikely as generating a seed with all biomes and far less likely than generating a seed with all basic blocks (all essential biomes). The shear number of different biomes available with most of the added ones involving more trees (forest) makes it more unlikely than before. Instead of a 1 in 23 chance, it's now a 2 in 61 chance that an ocean biome will generate any where on a map... the odds of only ocean biomes generating on a map is now extremely small. People think there are more "water worlds" being generated with TU31, but that's not the case. I've yet to generate any world without at least 1 type of forest in it... which is too many trees for true survival island. I have generated many, many worlds that are over 80% landmass and a couple that were in the range of 95% landmass. Typing in a seed string doesn't improve those odds because when you're typing in word strings you have no idea what number string the game will "translate" them into... there is no decryption key that can connect the two together. It's only when someone discovers a seed by "accident" that you can predictably type in a string with the intention of getting a certain result... and that can be done whether or not the seed that was "discovered" was first generated randomly or with a word string. There are no "custom" seeds.
What we're saying though is inherently different. You have the game picking 5 seeds out of all possible random seeds and then picking the most biomes out of those five. I'm saying out of all possible seeds that fit the criteria (e.g. over or under so many biomes), the game generates 1 and only 1... randomly (i.e. it doesn't select anything). The game doesn't have to analyze or select what it does because the player's selection of one or the other option just tells the game to use either Algorithm 1 (which only generates the seeds with more than so many biomes) or Algorithm 2 (which only generates seeds with less than so many biomes). Since Algorithm 2 only generates the seeds with less than so many biomes, it could also be written to generally generate only larger sized biomes. Algorithm 1 would have to generate smaller biomes in order to fit more in the map. It's the player making the choice/selection - Do I sacrifice biome size to get biome variety or do I sacrifice biome variety to get biome size?
Interesting...
FYI these are just some things that are strongly influencing my opinion....
I want the PC seed generation to be similar to console, so you can preview them.
I like the idea of improving the diversity of the biomes, but I don't want the biomes to get any smaller. they are already shrunken enough.
Slytherin is greener than Ravenclaw.
I don't think the generation has to be the same as PC to preview seeds... Chunkbase (or whoever) simply needs to write a proper biome finder app for whatever algorithm 4J actually uses. It's really just a lazy out that they get away with using the PC algorithms to generate what they claim are Xbox/console maps.
Large biomes are not prevented from generating now... they just consist of several same biomes placed side by side (like building blocks). Wolfhusband generated a map in TU31 where the mesa biome(s) covered a full 1/3 of the map. Where I notice the small biomes happening are mostly with little bits of plains breaking up the bits of forest... and I kind of like that... it's natural. Every real forest I've been in has clearings and meadows scattered throughout it. Smaller biomes actually allow for more natural transitions between biomes on any sized map... but what people prefer should be their own choice... and that's why I prefer the idea of the player selecting which way they want to go on the matter.
Actually, I think one factor that has been preventing the Xbox 360 worlds from generating "all biome" worlds is something that is part of the PC algorithm. I'm quoting an article that Mojang wrote when they brought in the new biomes on PC... so this IS part of the PC algorithm):
"Biomes have been put into four main categories: snow-covered, cold, medium, and dry/warm. Biomes will avoid getting placed next to a biome that is too different to itself (sometimes this still happens, but it's very rare now and not all over the place)." https://mojang.com/2013/08/minecraft-world-generator-update/
That means that, within our 862 x 862 block area, there is going to be a tendency to have biomes from one category or two categories rather than change radically in that distance to cover the whole climate range and all categories (which would mean putting two biomes that are "too different" beside each other).
I support that fact. I have seen ice spikes right next to jungle and savannah, but only on one seed in the many I've searched. I did recently see a jungle that was in part of a snow biome, or savannah right next to frozen ocean but those are rare too. The only way a seed could theoretically generate all 61 biomes is if it were divided into the 4 corners of the map. And that would be on a mostly land seed. But unfortunately I think crasy has it right. The generator will most likely do exactly what was said in the changelog "generate seeds with a better spread of biomes".
This will do 3 things. It makes finding a good mix of biomes easier, makes survival island harder and makes all-in-one seeds harder just as well. If the program used to determine what seed is used only has parameters to select a seed with the most biomes (using 5 seeds or whatever it may be) thenperfect worlds should start popping up pretty easily. But if the program only has to select any given seed so long as it has x amount of biomes without a need to scan multiple seeds simultaniously then survival and perfection will be extremely hard to come by. Just depends on exactly how this new program runs.
As for ocean worlds, I've seen my share of seeds that were 90-95% water but none without some type of forest. I had found a seed some time ago that had 7 islands and literally only 7 trees but I passed it up. Didn't think anyone would even want a go at that
Youtube-eonwolfx9, Twitter @eonwolfx9
I
There are actually quite a few of us "survival islanders." All snow plains survival is fun as well. My very first seed way back in TU2 had a huge tundra area (about 3/4 of the map)... I miss it. We'll just have to wait to see. I think asking an Xbox 360 to analyze for "better" without overheating is asking a lot of it... going to slow world generation load times down significantly.
There are a few all snow seeds floating around actually. Seems to be the most common type of biomes. I'd have to dig through my list but I know I wrote one down that had an enormous ice spike similar in size to that mesa seed I found
Youtube-eonwolfx9, Twitter @eonwolfx9
I tested out the concept of analyzing 5 random seeds using chunkbase and picking the one with the most types of biomes:
here are three results
including the color key.
1.contains mega taiga, a snowy biome,and a mesa
2. contains small mega taiga, and small snow
3. contains mega taiga, mesa, and mushroom,
Slytherin is greener than Ravenclaw.
Chunkbase is not accurate for pre-gen. I don't know how chunkbase is current gen , but I have tested about 30 seeds from chunkbase. Most of the biomes are usually just out of place but sometimes just are not there to begin with or are on a differenet part of the map. If you just want to attempt to show the biomes, fine. Just it will not be an accurate representation.
Youtube-eonwolfx9, Twitter @eonwolfx9
Yes I know. Its just a general idea of how the seeds might turn out.
Slytherin is greener than Ravenclaw.
4J on Twitter replied to a tweet indicating that the TU32 release date could be as soon as the end of this week? stay tuned!
From my experience, chunkbase is virtually useless for biome finding. It is however scary accurate on most occasions when looking for jungle temples. I found several excellent double jungle temple seeds for me and my kids this way, so each can have their own base with good starting resources.
I have found they make excellent homes with a cellar that is easily incorporated by removing the "secret" room of stuff and digging so there is a 3 high ceiling and expend out to its farther most points
Perpetually negative
The update is out on both ps3 and ps4 so hopefully will be up on xbox later today.
So far I have noticed that mountains are not as flat when comparing seeds created before and after the patch which is a good thing. I just hope that when I find an extreme hills biome they go above the clouds.