It would seem that everyone is incredibly misinformed. BWF does not include art assets at all. It reads them directly from BTW, which you place the entire .zip for into the config folder. Looking at the filenames in BWF, I don't think it actually includes functionality from BTW, but rather reads it in a Forge-friendly manner. However, I'm not skilled enough to decompile mods and have a peek, so I can only theorize.
Here is a zip file containing two .txt files. One is a list of directories and filenames included within BWF, and the other is a copy of BWF's mcmod.info's contents. You can also have the following screenshot. However, until things settle down, I won't be including a link to the download page. It's not hard to google it, to be honest.
Hint: use quotes.
Interesting. So its a Forge BTW content loader coupled with new code to make it work in forge? As long as BTW is not distributed with it, then FC have nothing to say about it imho.
A couple of points for the discussion, hope that helps (I doubt it but..anyway).
1. Compatibility of a mod like BTW with an API like Forge would be a big plus to the end user. It gives the player the opportunity to use the mod in conjunction with others from a vast array of resources that can definitely provide more immersion and added gameplay value to their worlds. That holds true for all mods that are not complete conversions and all APIs that have enough mods compatible with them to offer the variety needed to the player.
Granted, BTW as a mod has a stand alone vanilla plugin philosophy that can be easily destroyed when used with mods that provide similar mechanics or solutions, thus breaking both internal consistency and overall gameplay progression for the player. But there are a lot of mods out there that can and will complement it without doing that, making the end result both worthwhile and beneficiary.
2. I do not understand why some of the posters try to base their arguments about the validity of BWF on Flowerchilds behavior or character.
3. I don't think that anyone questions the motives of the people responsible for the BWF rewrite, especially if he knows the history between Forge and BTW.
4. Reading some of the posts related to the subject, an unrelated third party feels that the hypocrisy is thick enough to cut with a machete. Especially when people try to provide arguments for BWF, while at the same time they trash Technic/Tekkit on moral grounds in other posts. Frankly its somewhat hilarious, especially when coming from modders. And of course, typical of the current state of the MC modding community.
Cheers...^^
Agreed
Agreed, I personally don't like FC attitude, but I try to keep that out of my arguments as much as I can
I'm not familliar with all the detail, care to expand or link to source?
Well, there is a important difference here. Tekkit is a mod pack. People have been raging about inclusion of mods when authors ask no to do. Here we are talking about a single mod being developed that is using another mod's assets and idea. Until people start distrubiting BTW mod along with it, I see no issue here, especially since all credits to FC are given in the description.
It seems like you don't understand what "respect my wishes" means.
FC said "I don't want BTW to be part of forge", so they made an add-on essentially to BTW that makes it compatible with forge. So this is respecting his wishes? Did you try to defend it by saying they didn't "force him"? How could that even happen? What a ridiculous statement. How can anyone be "forced" to do anything about their mods. It's not like they can have him banned from MCF or blocked from the internet. The only "forcing" they can do is making it happen with his code against his will, which is exactly what they've done. What worse thing could they possibly do?
This self-delusion is astonishing. It was a jerk move. Yeah it'll probably stick around (although the current version is riddled with Crash bugs) and it's dependent on BTW Code, but it's obviously a jerk move. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean when you treat them terribly it somehow becomes okay.
Someone's wishes can be compared to one's freedom. And it ends where other's begin. FC have no rights to dictate other's freedom. In this case, we are talking about the freedom to create a new mod based on his work.
Let's analyse those wish further, shall we?
"I do want to make BTW compatible with forge". FC is not, its someone else doing it. Wish have been respected.
"I do want want that BTW is included in any pack". As far is I can tell, it's still the case. BWF is not even out yet. Don't cry wolf needlessly.
"I wish that no one ever try to use my mod with other mods". You can wish all you want, but once I download a mod, I can use it any way I see fit, as long as I don't redistribute it or any part of it.
And correction here, its dependant on BTW arts and models, not the code.
I feel I want to drive your car, whether you like it or not. Matter of fact, just mail me your computer. I could really use the spare parts and my friends all agree.
This isn't just a case of someone using a cool idea from a mod, like windmills, or anvils, or gameplay derived from a hierarchical block system -- this is a wholesale ripoff of an entire mod. Ripping off another modder who has created and programmed his mod for free and is still doing so, is a very, very bad precedent to set.
On the other hand, if you want a mod with mechanical power along with your RP, and other forge mods then actually do the work and write one.
If I allow you to download a copy of my car, you can do as you see fit with it. If I mail a copy of my computer, I don't care what people do with it.
In my book, ripping is taking without credit to the original author. I might be the wrong defining, but it is how I go about it. Here it is not the case.
"Do the work and write one" .... isnt it exactly what they are doing?
This self-delusion is astonishing. It was a jerk move. Yeah it'll probably stick around (although the current version is riddled with Crash bugs) and it's dependent on BTW Code, but it's obviously a jerk move. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean when you treat them terribly it somehow becomes okay.
Just a small correction here: to my knowledge it *is not* dependent on BTW's code. The reason you have to copy BTW itself into the config folder is that they're reading the textures from it, but, again to my knowledge, that's the only thing BTW is there for.
The code itself is all theirs, a re-engineering and copy of my own functionality using my own code as reference, with nothing of mine being run once you install the mod.
Everything else aside, I see a total tech-support nightmare coming for me with this one. It looks like BTW. It (kinda) acts like BTW. It's buggy as all hell. You "install" (not really...again, it's just the textures they're after there) BTW with it. So, if a relatively uninformed user installs it and it blows up on them, who does it seem likely they will contact about that?
It's an obvious troll and attempt to "punish" me for not joining Forge. I associate LexManos with it because HE IS associated and involved with it, and was acting as the public face for the project in that promotional video.
How someone can believe that he wasn't involved, or how someone could even begin to try and deny their involvement, with 7 hours of video footage stating the contrary, is beyond me.
Just a small correction here: to my knowledge it *is not* dependent on BTW's code. The reason you have to copy BTW itself into the config folder is that they're reading the textures from it, but, again to my knowledge, that's the only thing BTW is there for.
The code itself is all theirs, a re-engineering and copy of my own functionality using my own code as reference, with nothing of mine being run once you install the mod.
Everything else aside, I see a total tech-support nightmare coming for me with this one. It looks like BTW. It (kinda) acts like BTW. It's buggy as all hell. You "install" (not really...again, it's just the textures they're after there) BTW with it. So, if a relatively uninformed user installs it and it blows up on them, who does it seem likely they will contact about that?
It's an obvious troll and attempt to "punish" me for not joining Forge. I associate LexManos with it because HE IS associated and involved with it, and was acting as the public face for the project in that promotional video.
How someone can believe that he wasn't involved, or how someone could even begin to try and deny their involvement, with 7 hours of video footage stating the contrary is beyond me.
Hello FlowerChild, glad to see you chime in personally to discuss with us in a friendly maner about the subject. Greatly appreciated.
You have one big valid point here about not wanting to deal with Tech support for this. If I was in the same situation, I'd try to make some arrangement with the author of BWF. I believe this is something that can be easily resolved if both party cooperate.
However, I don't see Mojang complaining about having to do tech support for the pletora of Minecraft clones out there, nor did I hear Ablaska complain that need to do support for UniversalElectricy which use the exact same item (with the same recipe) as IC2.
As for trolls, punishment and involvement, wheter it be true or not have nothing to do, imho, with "not respecting your wish" and "stealing your idea".
I have no issue with you claiming that people are not nice with you. However, I can hardly agree with the "no means no" and "forge assimilation" campain your fans are undertaking.
And FC, read rem0te's post. If you did, you are not reading it carefully enough. Sure, people can be mean to you, but that gives you no right to be mean right back at em. It just means you are stooping to their level. Just ignore them and go on with your business. Besides, Forge compatibility for all mods was bound to happen sooner or later. You're just delaying the inevitable. Finally, even Forge may become obsolete as soon as the plugins API comes out. There's nothing we modders can do about compatibility. It just happens after a while.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Flowechild won't do it because he doesn't like a forge mod that is optional and in no way affects his mod.
People remake his mod to work with forge.
Yeah nothing wrong here, just people doing the right thing when an decides he won't because someone made a mod he doesn't like for the API.
Also abzu93, your argument is stupid because a car is nothing like what's going on. Now if it was that they remade the car from scratch that would be different.
Sure, people can be mean to you, but that gives you no right to be mean right back at em.
I love how you spend post after post defending the rights of forge modders to copy his idea, and laugh about it and call him names all day but you say FC doesn't have the right to actually respond to them. This faux-neutrality stuff is nonsense.
" There's nothing we modders can do about compatibility. It just happens after a while."
lol, do you have any idea how mods work? They don't just magically start being compatible. It doesn't "just happen".
And if ZeroLevel's screenshot is still accurate, you're even mentionned as the author of this mod...
Really, I wish you good luck in this situation.
Thanks man. If there is any consolation for me in all this it's that the opposition's argument inevitably boils down to "me want...you have...me take".
Personally, I still hold out hope that there are enough moral people within the community to raise enough of a stink over this attitude, to say "no" to it, and make the responsible parties reconsider moving forward with it.
As someone so rightly mentioned above, who really wants to write a mod under these kinds of circumstances? Ultimately, by not respecting the rights and wishes of modders, the community is shooting itself in the foot by discouraging the very people that provide them with free content.
In their constant desire for more and more toys they're working towards motivating Santa to finally say "f* this" and take up golfing in his free time instead.
Again: I make free content which you all can enjoy or not at your option, and have been doing so with my spare time for close to a year and a half now through hell and high water. The amount of hate and disrespect I'm getting in return here, just because I'm not providing it with the exact kind of wrapping paper that people desire, is truly staggering and worthy of a huge 'wtf?' for any thinking and moral individual.
In their constant desire for more and more toys they're working towards motivating Santa to finally say "f* this" and take up golfing in his free time instead.
Again: I make free content which you all can enjoy or not at your option, and have been doing so with my spare time for close to a year and a half now through hell and high water. The amount of hate and disrespect I'm getting in return here, just because I'm not providing it with the exact kind of wrapping paper that people desire, is truly staggering and worthy of a huge 'wtf?' for any thinking and moral individual.
In all honesty, I think Santa would be very happy if people volontered to help him make gift differently. And I doubt any elves would be angry if I changed the wrapping on my gift.
Also, hate and disrecpect? I hear only praise about BTW, and everyone seem to agree its an awesome mod. Some people (me included) might have issue with your attitude, and thats normal because it is inherently human, but that doesn't mean they don't appreciate your work.
Or, you know, encourage more people to listen when the community speaks so the community doesn't do this crap and take it into their own hands.
Also, to my knowledge, the minecraft modding community is pretty much the only place where "mod sovereingty" have become a convention. Everywhere else I hear that "modder have no rights at all".
Or, you know, encourage more people to listen when the community speaks so the community doesn't do this crap and take it into their own hands.
Crap like making them free content? The kind of content that is good enough that anyone would want to copy it in the first place?
I do what I do because I enjoy it man. I do not enjoy dealing with the extended community, being dependent on other people's code to make my mod, having zero creative control over the way the mod will be played, bending my will to a horde of people to satisfy their every whim, having a year and a half of work blatantly ripped off while it is rubbed in my face, having someone else's lesser quality and buggy work be misrepresented as my own, being treated with a total lack of respect in return for what I've provided, or really, anything about this situation.
If you do not understand that different people enjoy different things, and that you're entirely dependent on these people's enjoyment of the work they do to provide you with free content, AND all you're concerned with is getting "MORE! MORE! MORE!" from them, I really don't think you have a clue about what this situation really means.
Make no mistake man, this situation really is about general modder rights, and I'm sure there are plenty of modders out there taking a look at this right now and re-evaluating why they are bothering doing any of this to begin with, given that this is the kind of treatment we can expect to get in return.
How about you just IGNORE IT. You enjoy what you do, people are doing so they can enjoy it also and in a way that in no way affects you except for your ego. What do you lose? Just tell people to yell at the BwF people if they have trouble with it in the OP and ignore them if they ask you. The people get what they want, the people who had no problem before still use your better one.
Seriously, what do you even lose here? Some people are willing to give up the time to do something people wanted you to do. You don't need to react. You're just causing massive drama over a crappy remake of your mod. People need to DL yours anyway so it's not like you lose epeen or adfly clicks or something.
Ok, if you really think that making a mod and not letting it be compatible is your way of "doing the right thing", then I see no problem in doing that. But badmouthing others that make a mod that doesn't even do anything other than read from your mod? Come on. Do you really think that Lex is just gonna drop Forge and let Modloader be the only mod loading API out there? No, he's not. So just shut up about Forge, and let people do what they want. Afaik, ideas are meant to be free. That is how progress works. Oh, and listen to wiiman. Someone's taking the time and effort to do something you didn't. If someone doesn't want Forge, they can use your Modloader version. If they want Forge, they can download BWF. There's nothing lost except maybe a so-called "blow to your ego". Really, what are you losing from them making BWF? Just ignore it and let your fanbase rant at Lex. You don't have to dirty your reputation by personally insulting him.
Integrity, pride, and my enjoyment of making anything for people that would treat me this way in return.
Given that, I either fight for what I believe is right, or allow myself to be steamrollered and bullied into submission.
Personally, if I were to go that route, and just roll over when so blatantly wronged, I can not see myself continuing to mod Minecraft. In other words, I am fighting for my desire to continue doing something which outside of nonsense like this brings me and many others a huge amount of pleasure.
I am incredibly passionate about my mod, which is why I have lasted this long and continued to develop and expand upon it for the last year and a half. Thus, I am also incredibly passionate in fighting for my continued ability to keep doing so.
If you do not understand that different people enjoy different things, and that you're entirely dependent on these people's enjoyment of the work they do to provide you with free content, AND all you're concerned with is getting "MORE! MORE! MORE!" from them, I really don't think you have a clue about what this situation really means.
Make no mistake man, this situation really is about general modder rights, and I'm sure there are plenty of modders out there taking a look at this right now and re-evaluating why they are bothering doing any of this to begin with, given that this is the kind of treatment we can expect to get in return.
It seems you missed my reply about Santa, gift wrapping and modder rigths. Let me reiterate on that last point:
Technically, modder have no rights. Only here in the Minecraft community exist such a thing as "Mod sovereignty" convention. And its just that, a convention. Of course, convention mean that the community moraly believe this is the right thing. But its not a right, its a convention.
Do you merit the popularity that come with developing a mod? Certainly. Should people be considerate and credit your work? Thats common sense. But those are not rights.
And I personally beleive the concept of owning an idea a very bad one that is detremimental to progress and improvements.
Only here in the Minecraft community exist such a thing as "Mod sovereignty" convention.
I will make the point that actually, other modding communities tend to be far more mature than this one and tend to look down upon the Minecraft community because of it. Something like this wouldn't ever fly in most communities.
And I personally beleive the concept of owning an idea a very bad one that is detremimental to progress and improvements.
I am not requesting ownership of an idea. I am largely requesting people leave me alone and allow me to keep doing my thing in peace, and without intentionally trying to mess with me. "My thing" being providing people with free content.
I seem to have some kind of reputation for causing drama within the community at large, but honestly, aside from a few major instances where I've felt an issue was significant enough for me to cause a major stink over it (like this one), I largely just keep to my own modding forums and thread and do my own thing. If anything, I'm a loner that for the most part just doesn't want to deal with other modders, and who definitely doesn't want to do so on a continual basis.
As for you arguing that modders have no "rights"...yeah, that's exactly the kind of general disrespect towards modders that I am talking about. This whole incident may be a particularly extreme example, but you also see it in everything from the continual update pestering we are subjected to, the constant entitled whining for us to spend our own time on more content, and the general attitude within the community like we are somehow expected to be entertaining people for free rather than appreciated for it.
So, if you genuinely feel that modders do not have the "right" to be treated as human beings with a certain base level of respect and dignity, and to operate free of this kind of harassment, which in return benefits all of you that get to play with the content we produce, I really don't know what to say to you.
If anything, this situation is all the more alarming given it seems to be one group of modders doing it to another (or an individual). You would honestly think they would know better, given that they have to put up with many of the same forms of disrespect I do on a daily basis.
It would seem that everyone is incredibly misinformed. BWF does not include art assets at all. It reads them directly from BTW, which you place the entire .zip for into the config folder. Looking at the filenames in BWF, I don't think it actually includes functionality from BTW, but rather reads it in a Forge-friendly manner. However, I'm not skilled enough to decompile mods and have a peek, so I can only theorize.
Here is a zip file containing two .txt files. One is a list of directories and filenames included within BWF, and the other is a copy of BWF's mcmod.info's contents. You can also have the following screenshot. However, until things settle down, I won't be including a link to the download page. It's not hard to google it, to be honest.
Hint: use quotes.
First of all there's too many "I think" in this thread we need more facts.
Fact: FlowerChild has had issues with forge since about a year and a half now.
Fact: A lot of members of the community want to play Better than Wolves with other mods, that's why Better then Buildcraft stayed for a while.
Fact: FloweAdult has every right to do what he's doing.
A copyright protects only the physical expression of a work. It does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation.
Fact: FlowerChild is getting credit for the Idea.
Fact: FlowerChild is right about the foreseeing of people storming to him when something does not work with BWF. This need to be addressed before it releases and change the author to FlowerAdult.
Fact: This boils down to personal opinions, what you think is right or wrong. Don't force your ideals on other, whether you agree with BWF or not.
I am not requesting ownership of an idea. I am largely requesting people leave me alone and allow me to keep doing my thing in peace, and without intentionally trying to mess with me. "My thing" being providing people with free content.
Which is why you barge into Forge related channels to sling insults at Forge developers, when they aren't even directly responsible for the mod, right?
The only reason this is affecting you is because you let it. I could understand complaints for support for BWF coming through your channels, but as of now you could simply ignore it and continue your development in peace. Nobody is stopping you.
I'm sorry, what? Having belonged to several (and I mean a LOT) of modding communities, I think you'll find that Minecraft is the ONLY one that allows this sort of thing to occur (outside of abandonware games, and even then there are some that don't). So please, if you don't know what you're talking about: Shut up.
I'd also like to point out that, although I'm unsure of the legality of it, the phrase "Intellectual Property" exists for a reason.
I never said it allowed it: it is after all at the very center of this debate. I'm saying its a convention, not a right.
To be honest, I havent been "part" of many modding community, I just comment from an observer point of view. Maybe I havent observe the right place, but you don't have to be so rude about it.
Yes, copyright, intellectual property and patents are all concept that exist. But I'm pretty sure (this is an opinion, I havent checked Minecraft TOS) that the act of modding a game forfeit all those to the game owner, in this case Mojang.
I am not requesting ownership of an idea. I am largely requesting people leave me alone and allow me to keep doing my thing in peace, and without intentionally trying to mess with me. "My thing" being providing people with free content.
I seem to have some kind of reputation for causing drama within the community at large, but honestly, aside from a few major instances where I've felt an issue was significant enough for me to cause a major stink over it (like this one), I largely just keep to my own modding forums and thread and do my own thing. If anything, I'm a loner that for the most part just doesn't want to deal with other modders, and who definitely doesn't want to do so on a continual basis.
As for you arguing that modders have no "rights"...yeah, that's exactly the kind of general disrespect towards modders that I am talking about. This whole incident may be a particularly extreme example, but you also see it in everything from the continual update pestering we are subjected to, the constant entitled whining for us to spend our own time on more content, and the general attitude within the community like we are somehow expected to be entertaining people for free rather than appreciated for it.
So, if you genuinely feel that modders do not have the "right" to be treated as human beings with a certain base level of respect and dignity, and to operate free of this kind of harassment, which in return benefits all of you that get to play with the content we produce, I really don't know what to say to you.
With all due respect, why is BWF stopping you from doing your thing in peace?
To my knowledge, this started when you went into IRC and the argument erupted. (unless stuff was happening behind the curtain)
Yeah, the stream in twitch says a lot (haven't had the time to watch all 7 hours), but they didn't went to you and started poking you. You were watching it (or someone pointed you to it). They are trying to stay away from you. Yeah there might be trolls trying to mess with you but I believe you've had trolls since you left forge, so it wouldn't be anything new.
Interesting. So its a Forge BTW content loader coupled with new code to make it work in forge? As long as BTW is not distributed with it, then FC have nothing to say about it imho.
Someone's wishes can be compared to one's freedom. And it ends where other's begin. FC have no rights to dictate other's freedom. In this case, we are talking about the freedom to create a new mod based on his work.
Let's analyse those wish further, shall we?
"I do want to make BTW compatible with forge". FC is not, its someone else doing it. Wish have been respected.
"I do want want that BTW is included in any pack". As far is I can tell, it's still the case. BWF is not even out yet. Don't cry wolf needlessly.
"I wish that no one ever try to use my mod with other mods". You can wish all you want, but once I download a mod, I can use it any way I see fit, as long as I don't redistribute it or any part of it.
And correction here, its dependant on BTW arts and models, not the code.
If I allow you to download a copy of my car, you can do as you see fit with it. If I mail a copy of my computer, I don't care what people do with it.
In my book, ripping is taking without credit to the original author. I might be the wrong defining, but it is how I go about it. Here it is not the case.
"Do the work and write one" .... isnt it exactly what they are doing?
Just a small correction here: to my knowledge it *is not* dependent on BTW's code. The reason you have to copy BTW itself into the config folder is that they're reading the textures from it, but, again to my knowledge, that's the only thing BTW is there for.
The code itself is all theirs, a re-engineering and copy of my own functionality using my own code as reference, with nothing of mine being run once you install the mod.
Everything else aside, I see a total tech-support nightmare coming for me with this one. It looks like BTW. It (kinda) acts like BTW. It's buggy as all hell. You "install" (not really...again, it's just the textures they're after there) BTW with it. So, if a relatively uninformed user installs it and it blows up on them, who does it seem likely they will contact about that?
It's an obvious troll and attempt to "punish" me for not joining Forge. I associate LexManos with it because HE IS associated and involved with it, and was acting as the public face for the project in that promotional video.
How someone can believe that he wasn't involved, or how someone could even begin to try and deny their involvement, with 7 hours of video footage stating the contrary, is beyond me.
Hello FlowerChild, glad to see you chime in personally to discuss with us in a friendly maner about the subject. Greatly appreciated.
You have one big valid point here about not wanting to deal with Tech support for this. If I was in the same situation, I'd try to make some arrangement with the author of BWF. I believe this is something that can be easily resolved if both party cooperate.
However, I don't see Mojang complaining about having to do tech support for the pletora of Minecraft clones out there, nor did I hear Ablaska complain that need to do support for UniversalElectricy which use the exact same item (with the same recipe) as IC2.
As for trolls, punishment and involvement, wheter it be true or not have nothing to do, imho, with "not respecting your wish" and "stealing your idea".
I have no issue with you claiming that people are not nice with you. However, I can hardly agree with the "no means no" and "forge assimilation" campain your fans are undertaking.
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Flowechild won't do it because he doesn't like a forge mod that is optional and in no way affects his mod.
People remake his mod to work with forge.
Yeah nothing wrong here, just people doing the right thing when an decides he won't because someone made a mod he doesn't like for the API.
Also abzu93, your argument is stupid because a car is nothing like what's going on. Now if it was that they remade the car from scratch that would be different.
I love how you spend post after post defending the rights of forge modders to copy his idea, and laugh about it and call him names all day but you say FC doesn't have the right to actually respond to them. This faux-neutrality stuff is nonsense.
" There's nothing we modders can do about compatibility. It just happens after a while."
lol, do you have any idea how mods work? They don't just magically start being compatible. It doesn't "just happen".
Thanks man. If there is any consolation for me in all this it's that the opposition's argument inevitably boils down to "me want...you have...me take".
Personally, I still hold out hope that there are enough moral people within the community to raise enough of a stink over this attitude, to say "no" to it, and make the responsible parties reconsider moving forward with it.
As someone so rightly mentioned above, who really wants to write a mod under these kinds of circumstances? Ultimately, by not respecting the rights and wishes of modders, the community is shooting itself in the foot by discouraging the very people that provide them with free content.
In their constant desire for more and more toys they're working towards motivating Santa to finally say "f* this" and take up golfing in his free time instead.
Again: I make free content which you all can enjoy or not at your option, and have been doing so with my spare time for close to a year and a half now through hell and high water. The amount of hate and disrespect I'm getting in return here, just because I'm not providing it with the exact kind of wrapping paper that people desire, is truly staggering and worthy of a huge 'wtf?' for any thinking and moral individual.
In all honesty, I think Santa would be very happy if people volontered to help him make gift differently. And I doubt any elves would be angry if I changed the wrapping on my gift.
Also, hate and disrecpect? I hear only praise about BTW, and everyone seem to agree its an awesome mod. Some people (me included) might have issue with your attitude, and thats normal because it is inherently human, but that doesn't mean they don't appreciate your work.
Also, to my knowledge, the minecraft modding community is pretty much the only place where "mod sovereingty" have become a convention. Everywhere else I hear that "modder have no rights at all".
Crap like making them free content? The kind of content that is good enough that anyone would want to copy it in the first place?
I do what I do because I enjoy it man. I do not enjoy dealing with the extended community, being dependent on other people's code to make my mod, having zero creative control over the way the mod will be played, bending my will to a horde of people to satisfy their every whim, having a year and a half of work blatantly ripped off while it is rubbed in my face, having someone else's lesser quality and buggy work be misrepresented as my own, being treated with a total lack of respect in return for what I've provided, or really, anything about this situation.
If you do not understand that different people enjoy different things, and that you're entirely dependent on these people's enjoyment of the work they do to provide you with free content, AND all you're concerned with is getting "MORE! MORE! MORE!" from them, I really don't think you have a clue about what this situation really means.
Make no mistake man, this situation really is about general modder rights, and I'm sure there are plenty of modders out there taking a look at this right now and re-evaluating why they are bothering doing any of this to begin with, given that this is the kind of treatment we can expect to get in return.
Seriously, what do you even lose here? Some people are willing to give up the time to do something people wanted you to do. You don't need to react. You're just causing massive drama over a crappy remake of your mod. People need to DL yours anyway so it's not like you lose epeen or adfly clicks or something.
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Integrity, pride, and my enjoyment of making anything for people that would treat me this way in return.
Given that, I either fight for what I believe is right, or allow myself to be steamrollered and bullied into submission.
Personally, if I were to go that route, and just roll over when so blatantly wronged, I can not see myself continuing to mod Minecraft. In other words, I am fighting for my desire to continue doing something which outside of nonsense like this brings me and many others a huge amount of pleasure.
I am incredibly passionate about my mod, which is why I have lasted this long and continued to develop and expand upon it for the last year and a half. Thus, I am also incredibly passionate in fighting for my continued ability to keep doing so.
It seems you missed my reply about Santa, gift wrapping and modder rigths. Let me reiterate on that last point:
Technically, modder have no rights. Only here in the Minecraft community exist such a thing as "Mod sovereignty" convention. And its just that, a convention. Of course, convention mean that the community moraly believe this is the right thing. But its not a right, its a convention.
Do you merit the popularity that come with developing a mod? Certainly. Should people be considerate and credit your work? Thats common sense. But those are not rights.
And I personally beleive the concept of owning an idea a very bad one that is detremimental to progress and improvements.
I will make the point that actually, other modding communities tend to be far more mature than this one and tend to look down upon the Minecraft community because of it. Something like this wouldn't ever fly in most communities.
Edit: Ninjas! Everywhere!
I am not requesting ownership of an idea. I am largely requesting people leave me alone and allow me to keep doing my thing in peace, and without intentionally trying to mess with me. "My thing" being providing people with free content.
I seem to have some kind of reputation for causing drama within the community at large, but honestly, aside from a few major instances where I've felt an issue was significant enough for me to cause a major stink over it (like this one), I largely just keep to my own modding forums and thread and do my own thing. If anything, I'm a loner that for the most part just doesn't want to deal with other modders, and who definitely doesn't want to do so on a continual basis.
As for you arguing that modders have no "rights"...yeah, that's exactly the kind of general disrespect towards modders that I am talking about. This whole incident may be a particularly extreme example, but you also see it in everything from the continual update pestering we are subjected to, the constant entitled whining for us to spend our own time on more content, and the general attitude within the community like we are somehow expected to be entertaining people for free rather than appreciated for it.
So, if you genuinely feel that modders do not have the "right" to be treated as human beings with a certain base level of respect and dignity, and to operate free of this kind of harassment, which in return benefits all of you that get to play with the content we produce, I really don't know what to say to you.
If anything, this situation is all the more alarming given it seems to be one group of modders doing it to another (or an individual). You would honestly think they would know better, given that they have to put up with many of the same forms of disrespect I do on a daily basis.
First of all there's too many "I think" in this thread we need more facts.
Fact: FlowerChild has had issues with forge since about a year and a half now.
Fact: A lot of members of the community want to play Better than Wolves with other mods, that's why Better then Buildcraft stayed for a while.
Fact: FloweAdult has every right to do what he's doing.
Fact: FlowerChild is getting credit for the Idea.
Fact: FlowerChild is right about the foreseeing of people storming to him when something does not work with BWF. This need to be addressed before it releases and change the author to FlowerAdult.
Fact: This boils down to personal opinions, what you think is right or wrong. Don't force your ideals on other, whether you agree with BWF or not.
Which is why you barge into Forge related channels to sling insults at Forge developers, when they aren't even directly responsible for the mod, right?
The only reason this is affecting you is because you let it. I could understand complaints for support for BWF coming through your channels, but as of now you could simply ignore it and continue your development in peace. Nobody is stopping you.
I never said it allowed it: it is after all at the very center of this debate. I'm saying its a convention, not a right.
To be honest, I havent been "part" of many modding community, I just comment from an observer point of view. Maybe I havent observe the right place, but you don't have to be so rude about it.
Yes, copyright, intellectual property and patents are all concept that exist. But I'm pretty sure (this is an opinion, I havent checked Minecraft TOS) that the act of modding a game forfeit all those to the game owner, in this case Mojang.
With all due respect, why is BWF stopping you from doing your thing in peace?
To my knowledge, this started when you went into IRC and the argument erupted. (unless stuff was happening behind the curtain)
Yeah, the stream in twitch says a lot (haven't had the time to watch all 7 hours), but they didn't went to you and started poking you. You were watching it (or someone pointed you to it). They are trying to stay away from you. Yeah there might be trolls trying to mess with you but I believe you've had trolls since you left forge, so it wouldn't be anything new.