For me the problem isn't with the mods but the way people use them given some mods are created for the reason of legitimizing cheating. I create my own balance when I use automation mods. I avoid infinite power sources making sure what I'm doing is costing me something outside of test worlds. My bc quarry I only use default size and delete and re-craft it after 4 uses. Frames are only for nice doors and stuff like that. I don't use chunk loaders it can be annoying but I feel if I want to use the item I should at least go and check on it. UU is only for quantum armor. Some things I do not even do as automated like 90% of my crafting I do by hand sometimes I might use auto-crafting for stuff like cells or cans. I do agree that there does need to be a balance shift in the mods but I don't write them myself so I just make my own rules to make the game as fun but challenging as I can.
For me the problem isn't with the mods but the way people use them given some mods are created for the reason of legitimizing cheating. I create my own balance when I use automation mods. I avoid infinite power sources making sure what I'm doing is costing me something outside of test worlds. My bc quarry I only use default size and delete and re-craft it after 4 uses. Frames are only for nice doors and stuff like that. I don't use chunk loaders it can be annoying but I feel if I want to use the item I should at least go and check on it. UU is only for quantum armor. Some things I do not even do as automated like 90% of my crafting I do by hand sometimes I might use auto-crafting for stuff like cells or cans. I do agree that there does need to be a balance shift in the mods but I don't write them myself so I just make my own rules to make the game as fun but challenging as I can.
A game should set the rules for the player and encourage them to push against them creatively, not require the player to come up with their own rules due to the game itself being unbalanced. I applaud you for restricting yourself like that, but I feel that it should be on the mod to offer the environment, not the player.
I am torn on the idea that making it fully configurable is the right option to be honest. Full configuration does indeed allow individuals to play how they want, however, it also creates a muddled sense of how the mod is intended to be played.
Nothing muddled about it: The mod author intends the mod to be played with the default settings that the mod comes with.
The player can choose to change those if he wants. Make the mod harder or easier, or just configure things differently to suit their taste. For example, I would love to turn off spider-on-the-roof or zombie-at-the-door noises because they are repetitive and irritate the hell out of me. This would not change how difficult the game is in any way, but it would allow me the option to change it to taste.
Therefor the game experience on one server could be completely different then another with the same mods. I think consistency is a good thing.
It is this consistency that is stopping you from finding a server with the gameplay you want though.
This is why I see it as two ways.. either make a mod with the goal of NOT being balanced at all. Or make a mod that focuses on survival balance. Don't make a mod that tries to have survival balance by having higher costs, etc.. and then let that mod completely break the balance of the survival game.
Honestly though, what is wrong with a game taking time? What is wrong with it actually being challenging to progress through the content. If it takes a month or so to actually get through the entire content of a mod, why is that a bad thing? I see that as a sign of a game that is good. A game that can be entertaining and keep me hooked for that long as I slowly build my world around me seems like a good thing and not a bad one.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. I use MultiMC so I can have multiple minecraft setups. Some worlds use Tech mods, others use magic type mods. some worlds use much harder settings some are all about creating the coolest machines/automation systems, etc. the point is that I want to use your mod for BOTH types of play style and change the settings accordingly.
For you guys.. why don't you just have a simple mod that say lets you put an item in a special chest and be able to pull infinite items from that chest?
This already exists in EE2 with the condenser.
I cannot see a good in keeping machines that completely outclass the player. They ruin multiplayer economies, they trivialize survival mechanics, and all in all they ruin enjoyment for those that actually want a challenge.
That is because the admins can't keep the GOOD stuff from those mods and turn off the parts that ruin that aspect of the game. The mods lack configurability.
As is the fact that some of the other big mods have started re~evaluating their game balance.
I agree I actually don't enjoy vanilla minecraft played it for a few weeks and forgot about it till I found mods. I enjoyed learning about the mods and what I could create with them. I do enjoy going overboard with them but those are normally my test worlds and never use those builds in my survival world. But as a user of mods I have no choice but to use the mods I can find, take the hard work they put into them and blend them into a world I enjoy. The other choice is not playing. I don't know if the developers will change the mods to make them more balanced but in the end it's still up to the users to use them in a sensible fashion. But there will always be people that want nothing more then to exploit the game no matter what rules you put in they will find a way.
I can agree with most of this, except that I don't want to have to disable parts of a mod because its unbalanced. I want mods to be designed with balance first, and power second. That's kind of the whole point of this thread.
Again, something taking more time does NOT equal challenge. It simply means that it takes more time, slows the pace of the game down, and creates more periods of boredom as I'm waiting for things, or doing the same thing over and over and over. Why would I play a game to be bored?
Something taking repetitive action does NOT equal challenge. That's called grinding. It's nothing more than a timesink that lies between you and what you want. Put in enough time and you get success. That's not challenging, it's just a speedbump.
Something being scarce does NOT equal challenge. Again, if something is scarce, it just means it'll take longer to get. Make diamonds twice as rare, and you'll spend twice as long getting them. That's not challenge. It's yet another timesink.
Challenge is not a function of time investment. Difficulty is not created by something taking a long time, being hard to find, or needing a lot of hand-holding.
Challenge is a function of SKILL. Skill is a combination of problem solving, adaptability, and planning...NONE of which have anything to do with mining, punching trees, etc.
You're saying that the machines are outclassing the player. At what? Stupid repetative tasks? I certainly hope so, that's why they're machines. The purpose of machines is to automate repetative action, doing it faster, better, and more consistantly. That's what machines DO!
This frees up the player to use their SKILL to play the game. By planning ahead, by finding new ways to overcome problems, by adapting to changing resources and discoveries. The real challenge of the game, the place where skill is important, is creating those automated systems. There are dozens of decisions to make, problems to overcome, ways to solve each problem. Watch Direwolf20 tinkering with his systems. He's having a great time!
Adding maintenence to automated systems doesn't add any challenge. It just adds an extra time-sink.
Slowing the automated systems down doesn't add any challenge, it just makes it take longer.
Truthfully, I'm not at all afraid that the 'nerf automation' trend will catch on. It won't. For one simple reason: Mods are written by programmers.
One of the basic tenants of programming is DRY (don't repeat yourself). The job of programmers is to automate repetative tasks. And you'd be VERY hard-pressed to convince most programmers that repeatedly doing something that can be automated has any intrinsic merit at-all.
Unless you're repeatedly doing something for some other reason, such as a meditative exercise, repetition has very little value, and is often viewed as the enemy. It is something to overcome. It gives us purpose, it gives us something to design against. Repetitive activity is a problem, and we're problem solvers by trade and disposition.
If you take away our automation, I (and others like me) will jump in to put it back. If you slow our machines down, we'll create mods to speed them back up. If you add maintence requirements, we'll find ways to automate that maintenence. If you block those ways, we'll create mods to enable it.
I hate to say it but all game are created to be time-sinks. At least every game I have ever played from first person shooters to massive MMO's. The goal in creating a game is to make the time-sink as enjoyable to the player as they can so they keep playing or buy the next game you make. So programing might be about not repeating yourself but the final games are all about repeating over and over it's what makes a game re-playable. Even your SKILL you talk about is a time-sink. I personally like a slower paced game that can last 4 months then a flash in the pan I have everything after 2 days and then start a new one doing the same thing over again.
I hate to say it but all game are created to be time-sinks. At least every game I have ever played from first person shooters to massive MMO's. The goal in creating a game is to make the time-sink as enjoyable to the player as they can so they keep playing or buy the next game you make. So programing might be about not repeating yourself but the final games are all about repeating over and over it's what makes a game re-playable. Even your SKILL you talk about is a time-sink. I personally like a slower paced game that can last 4 months then a flash in the pan I have everything after 2 days and then start a new one doing the same thing over again.
I absolutely disagree with this. The only timesink in many games is the time it takes for you to get better, which is a function of YOU, not the game.
Where's the timesink in counterstrike? Where's the timesink in starcraft? Where's the timesink in DayZ? Where's the timesink in FTL? Legend of Grimrock? Skyrim? Portal? Deus Ex?
These games aren't about how long they take. The difficulty doesn't come from the time invested. The challenge isn't avoiding boredom until you get what you want.
The challenge is in being able to overcome the challenges in front of you.
You're actually wrong on the 'nerf automation' not catching on. I'm not alone in my desire for automation to be knocked down a few pegs. Just because mods are written by programmers doesn't mean those programmers don't want to create better gameplay. Many modders are already taking second look at their mods and trying to re~balance em.
I also disagree that adding time sinks doesn't increase challenge. Time sinks limit what you can do in a given amount of time, the force you to make choices as to how you progress and they encourage people to take on roles without enforcing them specifically. Time sinks are a great way to add balance to a game with crafting as a large focus.
Repetition or tedium essentially acts like a time sink that is interactive. Good use of time sinks in general will force people to make choices as to what they work on. Do they go mining? To they spend the time to build a drill that mines for them, but will take awhile to actually eek out a return? Do they focus on being a blacksmith and buy ores off other players and then trade the tools/weapons for other resources? See what I mean?... you don't get that if everything can be achieved easily without the time sinks. Its the time sinks that allow it to happen.
Edit: I wanted to add that the games you cited are different genres then Minecraft all together. A better comparison would be something like Harvest Moon, Sim City, etc.. you make investment choices and those choices shape your play experience. Without time sinks in a game like Minecraft, you aren't force to make choices and can just do everything instead...which essentially allows you to 'win' and let the game just play itself.
A time sink is fine, but not a player time sink. What I mean is that I'm not going to stand, drooling, in front of a furnace waiting for the stack of iron ore to get done smelting so that I can dump my stack of gold ore in to smelt. I want to place all my ores into a chest and have a machine feed it to the furnace while I go do something fun. I don't care if the ores still take the exact same amount of time to smelt in both situations. If I sit there waiting for something I'm not having fun.
A time sink is fine, but not a player time sink. What I mean is that I'm not going to stand, drooling, in front of a furnace waiting for the stack of iron ore to get done smelting so that I can dump my stack of gold ore in to smelt. I want to place all my ores into a chest and have a machine feed it to the furnace while I go do something fun. I don't care if the ores still take the exact same amount of time to smelt in both situations. If I sit there waiting for something I'm not having fun.
I want to create a completely different smelting system personally. However, for a Minecraft~centric design.. you would indeed still have automation like that. The main difference would be that the machine would have a limit to how fast it could pull items through the furnace. This time would be balanced to be slower then the player smelting it themselves to add some incentive to doing it yourself still. Automation would essentially focus on the fact that it automates a task, not in the fact that it does so at a fast speed.
Thought I would post my opinion as well and get another view point going.
I respect you Ecu, I loved your EnderStorage mod and I respect any mod developer fullstop for the effort and time they put into their mods for the public to use. That being said, I will agree with you on the fact that automation should be nerfed a bit.
I know when I was playing multiplayer minecraft with mods, things like IC2 setups with mass fabricators and recyclers were really OP. The same could be said about Buildcraft and RedPower with systems that would auto craft HV Solar Arrays in minutes. In some respects it is OP and should be nerfed.
In the end it is the players decision on if they want to abuse the mods to that point or if they don't. If they want to then thats fine, but dont punish all players based on the actions of a few. I make the choice myself to not exploit these things, and again thats the players choice to make on how they want to use the mods that they install.
I agree with what somebody said about the mods not having enough control in selecting parts of the mod to use.
Another OP example is ComputerCraft, but again it all comes down to what the player is looking to achieve from their own play experience. Everyone plays the game for their own reasons, all we should be doing is giving everyone the right options so that they can meld their own experience and make it whatever they want.
See, there is a very important aspect to this that you're missing. This is a video game, not real life. If automation replaces the player and makes essentially takes the need for the player to do anything out of the game, it ceases to be a game at all as you're no longer playing it. This means the only viable way to allow automation in such a game is to make sure that automation doesn't make the player obsolete, and no automation mods really try do that so far (even BTW kinda replaces the player eventually, it just takes longer).
You yourself state that it takes the fun out of multiplayer Minecraft. It also saps the fun from singleplayer as well. Look at Dire even, he starts over and tries to do things differently and is mostly doing it to entertain people. I know when I played on the server, I lost interest after the first week due to people creating machines to make infinite resources...it's takes all the challenge out of the game.
By definition, sure that's the purpose of automation...but then it probably shouldn't be in the game at all. I, however, think it can be done in a way that it doesn't remove the player's role in the primary gameplay concepts completely (mining, crafting, etc). I think that doing so can only reliably be done by requiring maintenance on machines, and making machines take time to do everything they do.. as it creates a drawback to the machines.
I think the biggest issue with making the decision ourselves is this, there aren't automation mods out there that are NOT overpowered right now. All of the automation mods follow the same general design. They all essentially end up doing everything for the player faster then they can themselves. If an author goes and makes a new mod that has tubes like BC/RP and electricity like IC2 but actually strives to be more balanced they will be chastised as a copycat...so new modders are pushed to follow the old, and old aren't changing.
So, we don't have the option to use automation but not have it be overpowered at this time. It is something I want to do with PR (Project Redux), but I already know I am going to get some of the same flak that Eloraam did when she made RedPower tubes and Bluetricity...because I'll be copying aspects of other mods. I'm ready for this flak, but I think the overall problem is something the community itself needs to help remedy. We need more mods that ADD challenge, especially with our tech mods... not more mods that remove the challenge completely.
Well Ive personally found it impossible to find any sort of game balance playing all of the popular tech mods at the same time, and I dont even do multiplayer. (If only it was possible to disable certain recipes like Mighty Pork's custom recipes mod in reverse, but alas) The obvious solution is to only use one or two, the problem with that is the most interesting and content packed mods fall into that category.
This may be only partially applicable to this topic, but I would love to see vechs-style custom maps incorporating tech mods. The basic premise would be moving resources from random deposits into massive single deposits that are only accessible through a heavily defended dungeon. You would get functionally infinite resources to build your crazy contraptions with, but you'd have to claw your way to them with only basic tools first. I envision a Lethamyr-style large continent (encompassing approx 3x3 or 4x4 maps) with a large empty ocean surrounding it for several thousand blocks (water down to bedrock). Each resource requires conquering a dungeon (possibly even renewable food/wood if you really want a challenge). This also allows ramping up the Nether/End difficulty to match the powerful mod items available (hidden skeleton spawners can really make it hard to snipe dragon regen crystals!)
I know this does not solve the issue raised (which I do largely agree with) but it gives a stop-gap solution that will make it more challenging, while still allowing creative heavy industry builds later in the game. I may take a stab at a BC/IC/Forestry/Railcraft map, if RL allows. Perhaps some talented mapmakers will find this to be an interesting idea
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Well Ive personally found it impossible to find any sort of game balance playing all of the popular tech mods at the same time, and I dont even do multiplayer. (If only it was possible to disable certain recipes like Mighty Pork's custom recipes mod in reverse, but alas) The obvious solution is to only use one or two, the problem with that is the most interesting and content packed mods fall into that category.
And that right there is the crux of it! Most of the tech mods aren't too terribly OP by themselves (opinions vary, of course ), its when you combine them that you wind up with uber OP solutions to automation issues. As an example in 1.2.5, a RP2 frame quarry using just RP2 has the issue of getting all the resources back to your base. But... if you add in the Enderstorage mod then you can let the quarry just run forever and the resources magically appear at your base using enderchests. Is that OP? Probably, but its still cool and fun to build.
If you feel that the above example is a problem, and I don't necessarily agree that it is, what can be done about it? One obvious solution is to nerf the individual mods. Part of what has brought this conversation up is some of the users of Ecu's mod are unhappy with the way he has chosen to change his mod for 1.3.2 in order to nerf it. Now, the way I look at it, its his mod so he can do whatever he wants with it. If people don't like it someone will probably come along and write a new mod that will work the way his used to.
Another, rather heavy handed, solution is to make so that the individual mods won't work together, ala BTW. I think this solution sucks and I'm glad its not really being considered.
How about some compromise? Ecu, you've said that the speed of automation is one thing you have an issue with. You're the coder in this conversation so let me ask you, would it be possible to write a mod that changes the number of ticks in a second? If there's less ticks per second machines would slow down, wouldn't they? Or do I misunderstand how things work?
Another mod that could be written would allow server owners to disallow particular recipes and/or blocks to be used. I know there's bukkit plugins that do this but I'm not sure if there's anything for a non-bukit server out there.
I'm going to close this because I've started rambling but, hopefully, I've given some food for thought.
I know what you are talking about Ecu. I don't think the real argument here is automation, building machines, etc. What you really want is to play on a server where everyone is not a jack-of-all-trades. You want to force a separation of roles, classes, professions, or skills, so that an economy and trade would be possible.
This is perfectly fine with me, I would dedicate a Minecraft instance to a mod like and have fun playing it, but it is not the only style of play I would want out of minecraft. Minecraft Vanilla is designed for single player and most of the mods released so far all cater to that play style. Nerfing the mods we have now still won't get this type of play out of minecraft. It is not going to happen without a total rewrite mod like TerraFirmaCraft.
I think this is where the problem comes in for multi-player Minecraft. A single player game where you have to be OP and do everything yourself just doesn't work out all that well on a multi-player game.
You want a mod where one player has the skills to do a few jobs at most. You choose if you want to be a carpenter, blacksmith, farmer, etc. I don't see anything wrong with that for multi-player, sounds like fun.
Part of what has brought this conversation up is some of the users of Ecu's mod are unhappy with the way he has chosen to change his mod for 1.3.2 in order to nerf it. Now, the way I look at it, its his mod so he can do whatever he wants with it. If people don't like it someone will probably come along and write a new mod that will work the way his used to.
This is exactly my point of why I don't think he should nerf it, or rather nerf it in default settings in the config but allow us the option to set it how we want. His mod is in no way required to transfer resources like this. I can completely replace his chest with teleport pipes. I only use the Ender Chests because of the pouch. The pouch lets me dump all the cobble and dirt and stuff into my sorting system to get rid of it while I'm out mining in person with a pick. This is the only reason why I use it. Again, I can replace the puch by putting down a chest/teleport type of setup I carry around with me, but the pouch is less fiddly and more convenient.
Another mod that could be written would allow server owners to disallow particular recipes and/or blocks to be used. I know there's bukkit plugins that do this but I'm not sure if there's anything for a non-bukit server out there.
This is what I'm advocating here. More options for the players and server admins is only a good thing. I would have worlds is single player where I turn off many parts of mods. Energy Condensers, Transmutation Tablets, UU Usage for anything other that what requires it to make (Quantum Armor) and so on.
It is not that I dislike any of those things. I still want the option to play worlds where I have them. I just want the option of limiting myself and creating more challenges.
Like the above example of moving resources from the quarry to the sorting system. How can I do it without using Ender Chests or Teleport Pipes? Well I could use a set of portals from one of the many mods that have them.
Ok, now how can I do it without Ender Chests, Teleport Pipes, or portals? Well I could... You see? That is where the fun comes from for me. Coming up with solutions to problems like that and finding an elegant way to accomplish it. The resources themselves are a moot point, by the time I'm setting up a sorting system and quarry and so on I already have tons of resources. Otherwise I would not need the sorting system.
Im really interested to see how this project will take shape. I hope that Ecu takes heed to what people have been saying here. As much as Id like to see a brand new tech mod built from the ground up with challenge and balance in mind, I cant imagine actually wanting to play one thats even more stringent and difficult than just playing with the usual mods. What would be better is a mod that is designed to replace most of them and offer streamlined and cohesive gameplay. It would need to do a lot of things, transport items, liquids etc. Not to mention have a good stock of industrialcraft-like machines.
It will be nerfed and it won't be a configurable nerf. That's already set in stone really.
More options for players/servers to customize mods isn't always a good thing. Too much customization creates inconsistency and muddles what a mod actually is. Instead of a mod being a full gameplay experience addon, it becomes a collection of features. You lose a sense of identity if every mod becomes a collection of features.
You also create a warped sense of the mod in the eyes of your players by having it be X powerful on one server and Y on another. Someone might come into your thread saying its broken or messed up because blocks aren't working the same on X server as Y.
No, I think configuration options are good for things that are meant to be optional, but I don't agree with the entire balance of a mod being configurable.
Im really interested to see how this project will take shape. I hope that Ecu takes heed to what people have been saying here. As much as Id like to see a brand new tech mod built from the ground up with challenge and balance in mind, I cant imagine actually wanting to play one thats even more stringent and difficult than just playing with the usual mods. What would be better is a mod that is designed to replace most of them and offer streamlined and cohesive gameplay. It would need to do a lot of things, transport items, liquids etc. Not to mention have a good stock of industrialcraft-like machines.
Honestly, it's going to be more difficult because I don't agree with things as they are. Things as they are just aren't fun...ESPECIALLY in a multiplayer situation. I don't want a server to devolve into people trying to make the better matter generator starting as early as day one. No, I want it to take time for a server to progress and even then.. the early stuff is still useful. New players can still join and contribute, and take part in trade. Yes, this is a focus on multiplayer because NONE of the major mods currently really focus on the fact that multiplayer is a large aspect of Minecraft and I'd argue one of the most fun aspects.
A game should set the rules for the player and encourage them to push against them creatively, not require the player to come up with their own rules due to the game itself being unbalanced. I applaud you for restricting yourself like that, but I feel that it should be on the mod to offer the environment, not the player.
Nothing muddled about it: The mod author intends the mod to be played with the default settings that the mod comes with.
The player can choose to change those if he wants. Make the mod harder or easier, or just configure things differently to suit their taste. For example, I would love to turn off spider-on-the-roof or zombie-at-the-door noises because they are repetitive and irritate the hell out of me. This would not change how difficult the game is in any way, but it would allow me the option to change it to taste.
It is this consistency that is stopping you from finding a server with the gameplay you want though.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. I use MultiMC so I can have multiple minecraft setups. Some worlds use Tech mods, others use magic type mods. some worlds use much harder settings some are all about creating the coolest machines/automation systems, etc. the point is that I want to use your mod for BOTH types of play style and change the settings accordingly.
This already exists in EE2 with the condenser.
That is because the admins can't keep the GOOD stuff from those mods and turn off the parts that ruin that aspect of the game. The mods lack configurability.
Which I'm also happy about and all for it.
I can agree with most of this, except that I don't want to have to disable parts of a mod because its unbalanced. I want mods to be designed with balance first, and power second. That's kind of the whole point of this thread.
Something taking repetitive action does NOT equal challenge. That's called grinding. It's nothing more than a timesink that lies between you and what you want. Put in enough time and you get success. That's not challenging, it's just a speedbump.
Something being scarce does NOT equal challenge. Again, if something is scarce, it just means it'll take longer to get. Make diamonds twice as rare, and you'll spend twice as long getting them. That's not challenge. It's yet another timesink.
Challenge is not a function of time investment. Difficulty is not created by something taking a long time, being hard to find, or needing a lot of hand-holding.
Challenge is a function of SKILL. Skill is a combination of problem solving, adaptability, and planning...NONE of which have anything to do with mining, punching trees, etc.
You're saying that the machines are outclassing the player. At what? Stupid repetative tasks? I certainly hope so, that's why they're machines. The purpose of machines is to automate repetative action, doing it faster, better, and more consistantly. That's what machines DO!
This frees up the player to use their SKILL to play the game. By planning ahead, by finding new ways to overcome problems, by adapting to changing resources and discoveries. The real challenge of the game, the place where skill is important, is creating those automated systems. There are dozens of decisions to make, problems to overcome, ways to solve each problem. Watch Direwolf20 tinkering with his systems. He's having a great time!
Adding maintenence to automated systems doesn't add any challenge. It just adds an extra time-sink.
Slowing the automated systems down doesn't add any challenge, it just makes it take longer.
Truthfully, I'm not at all afraid that the 'nerf automation' trend will catch on. It won't. For one simple reason: Mods are written by programmers.
One of the basic tenants of programming is DRY (don't repeat yourself). The job of programmers is to automate repetative tasks. And you'd be VERY hard-pressed to convince most programmers that repeatedly doing something that can be automated has any intrinsic merit at-all.
Unless you're repeatedly doing something for some other reason, such as a meditative exercise, repetition has very little value, and is often viewed as the enemy. It is something to overcome. It gives us purpose, it gives us something to design against. Repetitive activity is a problem, and we're problem solvers by trade and disposition.
If you take away our automation, I (and others like me) will jump in to put it back. If you slow our machines down, we'll create mods to speed them back up. If you add maintence requirements, we'll find ways to automate that maintenence. If you block those ways, we'll create mods to enable it.
It's what we do.
I absolutely disagree with this. The only timesink in many games is the time it takes for you to get better, which is a function of YOU, not the game.
Where's the timesink in counterstrike? Where's the timesink in starcraft? Where's the timesink in DayZ? Where's the timesink in FTL? Legend of Grimrock? Skyrim? Portal? Deus Ex?
These games aren't about how long they take. The difficulty doesn't come from the time invested. The challenge isn't avoiding boredom until you get what you want.
The challenge is in being able to overcome the challenges in front of you.
You're actually wrong on the 'nerf automation' not catching on. I'm not alone in my desire for automation to be knocked down a few pegs. Just because mods are written by programmers doesn't mean those programmers don't want to create better gameplay. Many modders are already taking second look at their mods and trying to re~balance em.
I also disagree that adding time sinks doesn't increase challenge. Time sinks limit what you can do in a given amount of time, the force you to make choices as to how you progress and they encourage people to take on roles without enforcing them specifically. Time sinks are a great way to add balance to a game with crafting as a large focus.
Repetition or tedium essentially acts like a time sink that is interactive. Good use of time sinks in general will force people to make choices as to what they work on. Do they go mining? To they spend the time to build a drill that mines for them, but will take awhile to actually eek out a return? Do they focus on being a blacksmith and buy ores off other players and then trade the tools/weapons for other resources? See what I mean?... you don't get that if everything can be achieved easily without the time sinks. Its the time sinks that allow it to happen.
Edit: I wanted to add that the games you cited are different genres then Minecraft all together. A better comparison would be something like Harvest Moon, Sim City, etc.. you make investment choices and those choices shape your play experience. Without time sinks in a game like Minecraft, you aren't force to make choices and can just do everything instead...which essentially allows you to 'win' and let the game just play itself.
I want to create a completely different smelting system personally. However, for a Minecraft~centric design.. you would indeed still have automation like that. The main difference would be that the machine would have a limit to how fast it could pull items through the furnace. This time would be balanced to be slower then the player smelting it themselves to add some incentive to doing it yourself still. Automation would essentially focus on the fact that it automates a task, not in the fact that it does so at a fast speed.
Thought I would post my opinion as well and get another view point going.
I respect you Ecu, I loved your EnderStorage mod and I respect any mod developer fullstop for the effort and time they put into their mods for the public to use. That being said, I will agree with you on the fact that automation should be nerfed a bit.
I know when I was playing multiplayer minecraft with mods, things like IC2 setups with mass fabricators and recyclers were really OP. The same could be said about Buildcraft and RedPower with systems that would auto craft HV Solar Arrays in minutes. In some respects it is OP and should be nerfed.
In the end it is the players decision on if they want to abuse the mods to that point or if they don't. If they want to then thats fine, but dont punish all players based on the actions of a few. I make the choice myself to not exploit these things, and again thats the players choice to make on how they want to use the mods that they install.
I agree with what somebody said about the mods not having enough control in selecting parts of the mod to use.
Another OP example is ComputerCraft, but again it all comes down to what the player is looking to achieve from their own play experience. Everyone plays the game for their own reasons, all we should be doing is giving everyone the right options so that they can meld their own experience and make it whatever they want.
Minecraft Launcher with multiple ModPacks
See, there is a very important aspect to this that you're missing. This is a video game, not real life. If automation replaces the player and makes essentially takes the need for the player to do anything out of the game, it ceases to be a game at all as you're no longer playing it. This means the only viable way to allow automation in such a game is to make sure that automation doesn't make the player obsolete, and no automation mods really try do that so far (even BTW kinda replaces the player eventually, it just takes longer).
You yourself state that it takes the fun out of multiplayer Minecraft. It also saps the fun from singleplayer as well. Look at Dire even, he starts over and tries to do things differently and is mostly doing it to entertain people. I know when I played on the server, I lost interest after the first week due to people creating machines to make infinite resources...it's takes all the challenge out of the game.
By definition, sure that's the purpose of automation...but then it probably shouldn't be in the game at all. I, however, think it can be done in a way that it doesn't remove the player's role in the primary gameplay concepts completely (mining, crafting, etc). I think that doing so can only reliably be done by requiring maintenance on machines, and making machines take time to do everything they do.. as it creates a drawback to the machines.
I think the biggest issue with making the decision ourselves is this, there aren't automation mods out there that are NOT overpowered right now. All of the automation mods follow the same general design. They all essentially end up doing everything for the player faster then they can themselves. If an author goes and makes a new mod that has tubes like BC/RP and electricity like IC2 but actually strives to be more balanced they will be chastised as a copycat...so new modders are pushed to follow the old, and old aren't changing.
So, we don't have the option to use automation but not have it be overpowered at this time. It is something I want to do with PR (Project Redux), but I already know I am going to get some of the same flak that Eloraam did when she made RedPower tubes and Bluetricity...because I'll be copying aspects of other mods. I'm ready for this flak, but I think the overall problem is something the community itself needs to help remedy. We need more mods that ADD challenge, especially with our tech mods... not more mods that remove the challenge completely.
I know this does not solve the issue raised (which I do largely agree with) but it gives a stop-gap solution that will make it more challenging, while still allowing creative heavy industry builds later in the game. I may take a stab at a BC/IC/Forestry/Railcraft map, if RL allows. Perhaps some talented mapmakers will find this to be an interesting idea
If you feel that the above example is a problem, and I don't necessarily agree that it is, what can be done about it? One obvious solution is to nerf the individual mods. Part of what has brought this conversation up is some of the users of Ecu's mod are unhappy with the way he has chosen to change his mod for 1.3.2 in order to nerf it. Now, the way I look at it, its his mod so he can do whatever he wants with it. If people don't like it someone will probably come along and write a new mod that will work the way his used to.
Another, rather heavy handed, solution is to make so that the individual mods won't work together, ala BTW. I think this solution sucks and I'm glad its not really being considered.
How about some compromise? Ecu, you've said that the speed of automation is one thing you have an issue with. You're the coder in this conversation so let me ask you, would it be possible to write a mod that changes the number of ticks in a second? If there's less ticks per second machines would slow down, wouldn't they? Or do I misunderstand how things work?
Another mod that could be written would allow server owners to disallow particular recipes and/or blocks to be used. I know there's bukkit plugins that do this but I'm not sure if there's anything for a non-bukit server out there.
I'm going to close this because I've started rambling but, hopefully, I've given some food for thought.
This is perfectly fine with me, I would dedicate a Minecraft instance to a mod like and have fun playing it, but it is not the only style of play I would want out of minecraft. Minecraft Vanilla is designed for single player and most of the mods released so far all cater to that play style. Nerfing the mods we have now still won't get this type of play out of minecraft. It is not going to happen without a total rewrite mod like TerraFirmaCraft.
I think this is where the problem comes in for multi-player Minecraft. A single player game where you have to be OP and do everything yourself just doesn't work out all that well on a multi-player game.
You want a mod where one player has the skills to do a few jobs at most. You choose if you want to be a carpenter, blacksmith, farmer, etc. I don't see anything wrong with that for multi-player, sounds like fun.
This is exactly my point of why I don't think he should nerf it, or rather nerf it in default settings in the config but allow us the option to set it how we want. His mod is in no way required to transfer resources like this. I can completely replace his chest with teleport pipes. I only use the Ender Chests because of the pouch. The pouch lets me dump all the cobble and dirt and stuff into my sorting system to get rid of it while I'm out mining in person with a pick. This is the only reason why I use it. Again, I can replace the puch by putting down a chest/teleport type of setup I carry around with me, but the pouch is less fiddly and more convenient.
This is what I'm advocating here. More options for the players and server admins is only a good thing. I would have worlds is single player where I turn off many parts of mods. Energy Condensers, Transmutation Tablets, UU Usage for anything other that what requires it to make (Quantum Armor) and so on.
It is not that I dislike any of those things. I still want the option to play worlds where I have them. I just want the option of limiting myself and creating more challenges.
Like the above example of moving resources from the quarry to the sorting system. How can I do it without using Ender Chests or Teleport Pipes? Well I could use a set of portals from one of the many mods that have them.
Ok, now how can I do it without Ender Chests, Teleport Pipes, or portals? Well I could... You see? That is where the fun comes from for me. Coming up with solutions to problems like that and finding an elegant way to accomplish it. The resources themselves are a moot point, by the time I'm setting up a sorting system and quarry and so on I already have tons of resources. Otherwise I would not need the sorting system.
It will be nerfed and it won't be a configurable nerf. That's already set in stone really.
More options for players/servers to customize mods isn't always a good thing. Too much customization creates inconsistency and muddles what a mod actually is. Instead of a mod being a full gameplay experience addon, it becomes a collection of features. You lose a sense of identity if every mod becomes a collection of features.
You also create a warped sense of the mod in the eyes of your players by having it be X powerful on one server and Y on another. Someone might come into your thread saying its broken or messed up because blocks aren't working the same on X server as Y.
No, I think configuration options are good for things that are meant to be optional, but I don't agree with the entire balance of a mod being configurable.
Honestly, it's going to be more difficult because I don't agree with things as they are. Things as they are just aren't fun...ESPECIALLY in a multiplayer situation. I don't want a server to devolve into people trying to make the better matter generator starting as early as day one. No, I want it to take time for a server to progress and even then.. the early stuff is still useful. New players can still join and contribute, and take part in trade. Yes, this is a focus on multiplayer because NONE of the major mods currently really focus on the fact that multiplayer is a large aspect of Minecraft and I'd argue one of the most fun aspects.