A lot of people are angry about the stance notch seems to have taken on mods. In a recent tweet especially, he worded it terribly poorly. It sounds to a lot of people like notch outright does not want people producing mods, but that isn't quite the case.
When you modify Valve's Source engine, it's all done via a modder's SDK, a set of tools and files designed to integrate mods into the engine in a clean and stable way, without forcing you to alter the actual engine binaries. In distributing a Source mod, you at no point are giving out sections of the actual Source Binary, just SDK mod files, which go in a mod folder. If you were to hardcode your mod into the Source binary and distribute it, Valve would use you as a pinata and take you for all you were worth. In addition, modding SDKs allow for powerful anti-cheating controls. They let you modify the game freely, while preventing code injection / server hack type mods. The SDK will bring immense freedom and stability to modding, while also reducing the ability of people to hack servers or otherwise cheat past server controls in multiplayer. That is a good thing.
What Notch is saying now, is that he does not support mods that involve modifying and redistributing the original source. Currently there is no modding SDK, so that's the only way to mod the game, but an SDK is planned. The SDK will probably not come until late beta or RC. Notch does not want to slow down the development process by having to drag an SDK along with him with every update. If he adds one now, it will break with every update and require time set aside to fix that could be avoided. It is in our interest that he does not add it yet, but he will eventually.
In the meantime, people will continue to hard-code mods. Notch, for legal reasons, must take the spoken stance that he does not support people digging in his code, so that the program remains stable in it's closed source and copyrighted status for the time being. He has said he will not actively pursue code modders, because he has no desire to actually stop the modders, he just cannot officially endorse them.
To hate on Notch for his handling of this situation is to show a fundamental lack of understanding of the development process, and to be short sighted and selfish. Notch, in doing this, has the interest of keeping the development process smooth and speedy in mind.
Adding a mod SDK right now would slow the development process down immensely.
Speaking in support of code-modders would destabilize the copyright status of the game.
Notch is not actually acting to stop code modding, only doing what he must to make minecraft the best it can be. Chill out, take a broader look at this situation, and see beyond instant gratification.
wow...
You who say it is the modder choice are morons, you dont have the right to mod. Because the game is in Alpha Notch hasnt cared abot mods but come beta he will take a stance either for or against. And when that happenes (the game reaching beta) if you go to court over a mod you will have no chance. A lot of game developers are very lax about mods and as a result people have begun to think that when they own a game they can do whatever they whant to it which is wrong. and yes some game developers have embraced modders be cause THEY ARE THE MAKERS OF THE GAME. If they had wanted to they could have tried to stop or discourage modders. the morality modding of modding is impossible to define and the Appropriatness of it realy depends on the guy who holds the copyright and what they deside.
Good job with the immature post here and name calling nearly everyone on the forum lmao, I can guarantee you most people here are much smarter than you and are indeed not morons. Honestly the law can say whatever the heck it wants, but if I spend my hard earned cash on a game I will damn well do what I please with it and there's really not much a developer can do(especially on single-player games).
Once the bits are on my computer, I'll twiddle them as I see fit, whether or not a developer wants me too. This whole "licensing" language means precisely squat to me. It's like an auto dealership telling people they can't put after-market parts in their cars because they only "licensed" the car. They can scream and cry all they want, but at the end of the day I do what I want with what I bought.
That said, I think Notch was mainly worried for the security and stability of other users when he made his post, and wasn't trying to say that he thought modding in itself was bad.
"I was referring to client mods that alter or inject code. Texture mods and server mods are fine."
I think there should be mods that allow you to change the textures and even server-side mods, but mods that inject code, are simply unfair. Changing the texture pack isn't going to give you an unfair advantage; just looks better on your end. But when people start altering code to improve themselves, that's the start of something bad..
How can a single player game be made unfair? Unfair to who?
Quote from theicychameleon »
@Saro: Its not really equivalent. Automobiles can't be "copied" or redistributed at will over phonelines
Who said anything about copying or redistributing his work? If I write my own code and executable and distribute it without ever sending out a byte of the original work, how is that a copy problem?
I'm not personally decided on it but developers have a point when they argue that people shouldn't be able to read through their code
After Minecraft becoming a one of a kind Indie wonder we started to talk about morality!
Minecraft is different and mods played an important role in it's success. Why nobody is talking about it?
Notch as a creator has every right to advice modders the path they should take so that mods made will continue to work with minimum code rewrite. He is doing that.
Modding is not good when in Alpha etc is pure BS, come on Notch himself liked many mods made and said the he may include this and that in the game soooo.....
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am always tinkering! I screw things up many times! WTH it feels good.
I cannot talk precisely/concisely straight to the point :| I take twists and turns make things complex just to tell a simple thing, it's my thing but again WTH I am open minded
Im just saying, notice how the main menu has a button that says Mods and Texture Packs.
im not in the mood for rigorous typing, so ill leave that to other people.
;D
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, an opinion cant be awful. Its an opinion. Its your opinion that his opinion is awful.
- A Knowledgeable Poster
wow...
You who say it is the modder choice are morons, you dont have the right to mod.
Are you a lawyer? Because you're pretty wrong about this. The issue is quite a bit more complicated.
Hint: The fact that, say, Microsoft says you can't do something in their EULA does not mean that the EULA is legally enforceable.
Someone said something earlier about Notch not wanting "unsupported" code in his game--this is strange, given that his own FAQ says "I offer no support for the game". All of Minecraft is "unsupported".
wow...
You who say it is the modder choice are morons, you dont have the right to mod.
Are you a lawyer? Because you're pretty wrong about this. The issue is quite a bit more complicated.
Hint: The fact that, say, Microsoft says you can't do something in their EULA does not mean that the EULA is legally enforceable.
Someone said something earlier about Notch not wanting "unsupported" code in his game--this is strange, given that his own FAQ says "I offer no support for the game". All of Minecraft is "unsupported".
Oh my GOD, don't nitpick the semantics.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Foxy1990 »
if some higher beings ever got to view this forum before coming to our planet they would turn back and not bother!
Quote from Blindburrows »
do you know how to get to the Netherlands other than a portal
Who said anything about copying or redistributing his work? If I write my own code and executable and distribute it without ever sending out a byte of the original work, how is that a copy problem?
I don't think you quite understand the idea...
It's not just about copying or redistributing. He was saying that it's a horrible comparison.
First off, the legalities of buying a car and licensing software are two completely different things.
The legalities of a car is you're entitled to modify everything of the car from the moment you own it. It's in that stack of papers the guy in the funny suit makes you sign. You know, the one people never read?
Second off, purchasing physical objects and digital information are extremely different.
With a physical object you have something that is, well... As is. If you crash your car, it's gone.
With licensing digital software you have something that's well... Infinite, in a way. If you accidently break your program like an idiot, or your computer needs to be reformatted, you can download/install the program again. Infinitely. When you purchase a car you're buying labor, physical materials, etc. You're buying the object. With digital information you're purchasing a license. This license permits you to use their software in accordance with the EULA(End User License Agreement.) And this agreement always comes with the legal stance of software modification tacked onto it. Basically it states that nothing in the software can be modified without consent of the owner.
Also, everything about modding Minecraft is considered illegal in the United States.
What we have is the modification of Intellectual Property, which is illegal. Minecraft is copyrighted and anything as simple as decompiling and deobfuscation of the code is considered a violation of copyright laws.
However, this does not mean the feds will be knocking on the door. Copyright laws are only really enforced by the owning person or company. ( As in, Mojang Specifications. )
The legalities of modding Minecraft are definitely penned out and specific. What matters is that Notch is choosing not to do anything about it. He is CHOOSING to let this go on because people enjoy it. Who the hell cares about the rest?
HOWEVER. There is one thing that should be DEFINITELY OBVIOUS. The fact that you have to decompile the program back to source code should tell you that you're not meant to modify the source code in the first place. That's why things are made how they are. That's why companies make an API or a set of Tools and specific guidelines. You're not meant to modify the source code of any program that does not come Open Source.
Last but not least, I'm not against modding. I'm against idiots thinking that they are entitled to something that they didn't pay or ask for, especially when it comes to modifying a person's intellectual rights and hard work without asking if it's alright. Since Notch has actually stated that he's not really 'against' modding as long as the mod is distributed as a patch or with just the modified files I myself have even begun working on a mod.
But if Notch asks me to stop, I'll definitely stop. I won't be an idiot and b***h about something that I'm not entitled to.
I purchased a physical object, my computer. I have the right to edit it and its components (my harddrive) however the hell i want. Even one 'bit' at a time.
It was my understanding, after reading notch's clarifications, that he is fine with the server itself being modded, or people modding single player. What he was against was individuals running their own mods while on a server. Notch called this modding, but to the rest of the world, we call it HACKING. So everyone, you can unclench your panties, notch was against hackers, not modders. He just phrased it terribly.
I'm not arguing the difference of legalities between a car and a program. I understand that the law attempts to treat them differently; I'm arguing the philosophy behind it.
I've already state that of a car is you're entitled to modify everything of the car from the moment you own it. It's in that stack of papers the guy in the funny suit makes you sign. You know, the one people never read?
And I own the hard drive the bits I'm twiddling are on, same as my car. Now you can argue that installing a program is like renting a car, but that's just nonsense. It may be the law, but it doesn't make it any less nonsense.
Also, everything about modding Minecraft is considered illegal in the United States. What we have is the modification of Intellectual Property, which is illegal.
What law says that?
Minecraft is copyrighted and anything as simple as decompiling and deobfuscation of the code is considered a violation of copyright laws.
The DCMA criminalizes the circumvention of copyright protection, but how does simply decompiling code violate copyright? What have I copied? It might violate a EULA, since most EULAs specifically prohibit decompiling, but a EULA is not copyright.
HOWEVER. There is one thing that should be DEFINITELY OBVIOUS. The fact that you have to decompile the program back to source code should tell you that you're not meant to modify the source code in the first place.
Why's that? Just because something is difficult and wasn't made easier to do implies that something shouldn't be done?
I'm against idiots thinking that they are entitled to something that they didn't pay or ask for
Me too. He didn't buy my hard drive, so he doesn't get a say in what bits go where.
Quote from cerevox »
It was my understanding, after reading notch's clarifications, that he is fine with the server itself being modded, or people modding single player. What he was against was individuals running their own mods while on a server. Notch called this modding, but to the rest of the world, we call it HACKING. So everyone, you can unclench your panties, notch was against hackers, not modders. He just phrased it terribly.
I think this is probably a good assumption. I'll reiterate my earlier (different, but related) opinion on his meaning:
Quote from Me »
That said, I think Notch was mainly worried for the security and stability of other users when he made his post, and wasn't trying to say that he thought modding in itself was bad.
The day he takes out modding is the day i and 1000's of others quit. Mods add to the game things notch didn't. Things that make the game funner. Such as more ores and trees armor. And theres a mod coming out that amkes the deserted lame and pointless nether have 100's of new things. So notch take note on that. UNless you want to lose hundreds of thousands of players dont get rid of modding. yet the choice is yours i have no power at all.
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from the history of minecraft on minecraft.net:
"But maybe it gathered too much pace. On September 18th 2010, the Minecraft webserver crashed due to the sheer amount of players signing up. Markus made the game free to compensate, causing yet another spike in downloads. And things were just getting started. A video showing off one man’s dedication to create a 1:1 replica of the Starship Enterprise went viral, churning up YouTube views. Minecraft was getting harder to ignore. And why would you want to?" (Emphasis added)
notch made itlegal to mod, when it wouldn't have been legal in the first place. notice also this this caused "another spike in downloads", meaning that modding increased the popularity of the game. i am a modder (by the way, try out my mod, GEM, here) and i feel that modding is morally right.
Hello, MCForum.
A lot of people are angry about the stance notch seems to have taken on mods. In a recent tweet especially, he worded it terribly poorly. It sounds to a lot of people like notch outright does not want people producing mods, but that isn't quite the case.
When you modify Valve's Source engine, it's all done via a modder's SDK, a set of tools and files designed to integrate mods into the engine in a clean and stable way, without forcing you to alter the actual engine binaries. In distributing a Source mod, you at no point are giving out sections of the actual Source Binary, just SDK mod files, which go in a mod folder. If you were to hardcode your mod into the Source binary and distribute it, Valve would use you as a pinata and take you for all you were worth. In addition, modding SDKs allow for powerful anti-cheating controls. They let you modify the game freely, while preventing code injection / server hack type mods. The SDK will bring immense freedom and stability to modding, while also reducing the ability of people to hack servers or otherwise cheat past server controls in multiplayer. That is a good thing.
What Notch is saying now, is that he does not support mods that involve modifying and redistributing the original source. Currently there is no modding SDK, so that's the only way to mod the game, but an SDK is planned. The SDK will probably not come until late beta or RC. Notch does not want to slow down the development process by having to drag an SDK along with him with every update. If he adds one now, it will break with every update and require time set aside to fix that could be avoided. It is in our interest that he does not add it yet, but he will eventually.
In the meantime, people will continue to hard-code mods. Notch, for legal reasons, must take the spoken stance that he does not support people digging in his code, so that the program remains stable in it's closed source and copyrighted status for the time being. He has said he will not actively pursue code modders, because he has no desire to actually stop the modders, he just cannot officially endorse them.
To hate on Notch for his handling of this situation is to show a fundamental lack of understanding of the development process, and to be short sighted and selfish. Notch, in doing this, has the interest of keeping the development process smooth and speedy in mind.
Adding a mod SDK right now would slow the development process down immensely.
Speaking in support of code-modders would destabilize the copyright status of the game.
Notch is not actually acting to stop code modding, only doing what he must to make minecraft the best it can be. Chill out, take a broader look at this situation, and see beyond instant gratification.
It's all good, man. Notch has this.
Good job with the immature post here and name calling nearly everyone on the forum lmao, I can guarantee you most people here are much smarter than you and are indeed not morons. Honestly the law can say whatever the heck it wants, but if I spend my hard earned cash on a game I will damn well do what I please with it and there's really not much a developer can do(especially on single-player games).
lol... +1
That said, I think Notch was mainly worried for the security and stability of other users when he made his post, and wasn't trying to say that he thought modding in itself was bad.
If the worst that comes of it is a little butthurt from Notch, I'll still try to use mods. :3
I think there should be mods that allow you to change the textures and even server-side mods, but mods that inject code, are simply unfair. Changing the texture pack isn't going to give you an unfair advantage; just looks better on your end. But when people start altering code to improve themselves, that's the start of something bad..
How can a single player game be made unfair? Unfair to who?
Who said anything about copying or redistributing his work? If I write my own code and executable and distribute it without ever sending out a byte of the original work, how is that a copy problem?
What point is that?
Minecraft is different and mods played an important role in it's success.
Why nobody is talking about it?
Notch as a creator has every right to advice modders the path they should take so that mods made will continue to work with minimum code rewrite. He is doing that.
Modding is not good when in Alpha etc is pure BS, come on Notch himself liked many mods made and said the he may include this and that in the game soooo.....
I cannot talk precisely/concisely straight to the point :| I take twists and turns make things complex just to tell a simple thing, it's my thing but again WTH I am open minded
im not in the mood for rigorous typing, so ill leave that to other people.
;D
- A Knowledgeable Poster
Are you a lawyer? Because you're pretty wrong about this. The issue is quite a bit more complicated.
Hint: The fact that, say, Microsoft says you can't do something in their EULA does not mean that the EULA is legally enforceable.
Someone said something earlier about Notch not wanting "unsupported" code in his game--this is strange, given that his own FAQ says "I offer no support for the game". All of Minecraft is "unsupported".
Oh my GOD, don't nitpick the semantics.
I don't think you quite understand the idea...
It's not just about copying or redistributing. He was saying that it's a horrible comparison.
First off, the legalities of buying a car and licensing software are two completely different things.
The legalities of a car is you're entitled to modify everything of the car from the moment you own it. It's in that stack of papers the guy in the funny suit makes you sign. You know, the one people never read?
Second off, purchasing physical objects and digital information are extremely different.
With a physical object you have something that is, well... As is. If you crash your car, it's gone.
With licensing digital software you have something that's well... Infinite, in a way. If you accidently break your program like an idiot, or your computer needs to be reformatted, you can download/install the program again. Infinitely. When you purchase a car you're buying labor, physical materials, etc. You're buying the object. With digital information you're purchasing a license. This license permits you to use their software in accordance with the EULA(End User License Agreement.) And this agreement always comes with the legal stance of software modification tacked onto it. Basically it states that nothing in the software can be modified without consent of the owner.
Also, everything about modding Minecraft is considered illegal in the United States.
What we have is the modification of Intellectual Property, which is illegal. Minecraft is copyrighted and anything as simple as decompiling and deobfuscation of the code is considered a violation of copyright laws.
However, this does not mean the feds will be knocking on the door. Copyright laws are only really enforced by the owning person or company. ( As in, Mojang Specifications. )
The legalities of modding Minecraft are definitely penned out and specific. What matters is that Notch is choosing not to do anything about it. He is CHOOSING to let this go on because people enjoy it. Who the hell cares about the rest?
HOWEVER. There is one thing that should be DEFINITELY OBVIOUS. The fact that you have to decompile the program back to source code should tell you that you're not meant to modify the source code in the first place. That's why things are made how they are. That's why companies make an API or a set of Tools and specific guidelines. You're not meant to modify the source code of any program that does not come Open Source.
Last but not least, I'm not against modding. I'm against idiots thinking that they are entitled to something that they didn't pay or ask for, especially when it comes to modifying a person's intellectual rights and hard work without asking if it's alright. Since Notch has actually stated that he's not really 'against' modding as long as the mod is distributed as a patch or with just the modified files I myself have even begun working on a mod.
But if Notch asks me to stop, I'll definitely stop. I won't be an idiot and b***h about something that I'm not entitled to.
I am infinitely glad that there are still some other places on Earth which aren't included in the United States.
I'm not arguing the difference of legalities between a car and a program. I understand that the law attempts to treat them differently; I'm arguing the philosophy behind it.
And I own the hard drive the bits I'm twiddling are on, same as my car. Now you can argue that installing a program is like renting a car, but that's just nonsense. It may be the law, but it doesn't make it any less nonsense.
What law says that?
The DCMA criminalizes the circumvention of copyright protection, but how does simply decompiling code violate copyright? What have I copied? It might violate a EULA, since most EULAs specifically prohibit decompiling, but a EULA is not copyright.
Why's that? Just because something is difficult and wasn't made easier to do implies that something shouldn't be done?
Me too. He didn't buy my hard drive, so he doesn't get a say in what bits go where.
I think this is probably a good assumption. I'll reiterate my earlier (different, but related) opinion on his meaning:
"But maybe it gathered too much pace. On September 18th 2010, the Minecraft webserver crashed due to the sheer amount of players signing up. Markus made the game free to compensate, causing yet another spike in downloads. And things were just getting started. A video showing off one man’s dedication to create a 1:1 replica of the Starship Enterprise went viral, churning up YouTube views. Minecraft was getting harder to ignore. And why would you want to?" (Emphasis added)
notch made it legal to mod, when it wouldn't have been legal in the first place. notice also this this caused "another spike in downloads", meaning that modding increased the popularity of the game. i am a modder (by the way, try out my mod, GEM, here) and i feel that modding is morally right.
I code, therefore I am.
Don't forget to check out the Atlantis Mod!