Minecraft Forums

Quote from Xionanx

Why don't we just do a pro's cons list for TC4 research, here's my short list based on personal experience and the frequency of complaints I've seen in this thread over the past few months..

TC4 Research Cons:
1. Running out of research points with no immediately actionable way to get more. (IE. I need iron, I mine iron, I need AER and I??? run around hoping to find a node with AER?)
2. Boring "busy work" of staring at a table
3. Research time spent VS time spent using the results of said research is not in balance

TC4 Research Pros:
1. Its unique, no other mod does it AFAIK

If I run out of research points, I start putting nether wart in a deconstruction table. With a small farm, 5-10 tables being feed, I'll never run out of points. It is the point of the deconstruction table after all.

Setting research to easy mode in the config removes the "Boring busy work". Buy every thing for research points without playing the mini game I have fun doing.(Again, I'm mad)

With it set to easy, you'll quickly clime up the research trees with little work. Just scan everything and you'll do fine.

Post script: If you need aer, try putting sugarcane in the deconstruction table. It is something cheap and can be farmed.

Last I knew, putting wool in a deconstruction table works well too. I got tons of primal RPs (except ignis) from tossing in wool. It also had an extremely high chance to give a RP too. I admit I haven't been playing much of MC lately so I'm not sure how well it still works with the new aspect changes.

I just tried to make the silverwood staff core. I had sufficient essentia next to the infusion altar. I placed the silverwood log in the middle, the Salis Mundis and six different shards around it. Leaving just one pedestal empty. Then I whacked it with the wand and the process started. First it consumed all essentia and then it started consuming the items one by one. But for some reason it failed to consume the last shard (ordo I believe). It kept on infusing and infusing but nothing happened anymore. There was still sufficient essentia in the jars. And finally at some point the last shard was replaced with tainted goo. Any idea what could be wrong? I think I put all the needed stuff in there the right way. Is there something that I'm overlooking?

Thanks,

Quote from XanderGryphon

When I still used the deconstruction table, I was rather partial to using blocks of flesh. I always have a large amount of zombie flesh, so it was a nice way to use that up and get something back for it all.

Yeah, I used that too. It's completely useless otherwise. Once I discovered wool though... I'm not kidding when I said extremely high chance of getting a RP. Almost each piece of wool I tossed in would give me a RP. And with TT's tool something-or-another tablet automating wool becomes pretty easy. The only downside is the lack of ignis.

Quote from McJty

I just tried to make the silverwood staff core. I had sufficient essentia next to the infusion altar. I placed the silverwood log in the middle, the Salis Mundis and six different shards around it. Leaving just one pedestal empty. Then I whacked it with the wand and the process started. First it consumed all essentia and then it started consuming the items one by one. But for some reason it failed to consume the last shard (ordo I believe). It kept on infusing and infusing but nothing happened anymore. There was still sufficient essentia in the jars. And finally at some point the last shard was replaced with tainted goo. Any idea what could be wrong? I think I put all the needed stuff in there the right way. Is there something that I'm overlooking?

Thanks,

Are you certain an item didn't get knocked off? Sometimes that'll happen and it escapes your view. Usually at that point I just begin to franticly put spare items on the pedestals.

Query regarding how a Golem prioritizes where Essentia is deposited in a stack of jars:

http://i.imgur.com/mZmQGxe.png

In this image I have a multilevel Essentia storage room, managed with Golems. At the top of each stack is a Void jar. Each tower is labeled with a single type of Essentia. My issue is that a FULL VOID JAR ranks higher as a valid destination than an empty, labeled jar. This results in significant wastage because they will keep dumping Essentia into the Void Jar instead of the empty Jars.

Can we adjust this so that labeled empty jars are higher priority than a Void jar?

Quote from Auric245524

Are you certain an item didn't get knocked off? Sometimes that'll happen and it escapes your view. Usually at that point I just begin to franticly put spare items on the pedestals.

Nothing did get knocked off but I did notice that my jar of Ordo was completely empty while it contained 32 essentia. In the Thaumonomicon it said only 9 Ordo was needed but for some reason my jar was emptied? It seemed to have needed a lot more essentia then advertized in the book.

Quote from Xionanx

1. Running out of research points with no immediately actionable way to get more. (IE. I need iron, I mine iron, I need AER and I??? run around hoping to find a node with AER?)

This one in particular stands out, as everyone in the thread keeps pointing out the problem with it. If you're scanning nodes to get aspects, you're doing it wrong. Scan stuff. Make stuff and scan it. Research things, make those things, and scan those things. You will never, ever NEED to scan a node if you do that, unless you're just blindly throwing point after point at the research table trying to combine to find new aspects, which you also shouldn't need to do.

One minor request which may have been done already: In 4.0, taking a label off a jar blanked the label. At first I was OK with that, but then it got annoying. I haven't run 4.1 yet, but by the discussion, it has even more need to put chosen labels on a previously-empty jar or alembic. If it has not been done already, can labels be made to keep their aspect when removed? (It's easy enough to blank them in the inventory.)

Wow, alright, two pages suddenly came up from when I last checked. Yes, I do a bit of tech mods. I also like magic mods because as I pointed out I'm a fan of magitech. I like both science and fantasy branches of fiction equally.

The tech mods have always had a unique balancing challenge. Some people may think they make things too easily too quickly, and those that do make things hard usually do so through grinding such as the infamous Gregtech. While I enjoyed Gregtech at first, it was only because I could experiment with, find, and refine cross-mod interactions to break his stupid contrived difficulty like a series of puzzles (Research!) Then he decided that was unacceptable and broke the game. We've never used Gregtech since. During the fiasco someone pointed out that a major balancing struggle that most mods face is that between "gamers" and "builders". There are people who just want something that feels closer to creative but actually requires symbolic effort to manage while they build all sorts of awesome things vs people who look and expect a much stiffer challenge from their mods. And just like they did for Gregtech it seems the two factions look down on one another here. "If you want it that easy just pop into creative!" vs "It's too difficult Azanor needs to make it easier!". Ultimately people have a range preferences and they're not all going to be magically piled up around an optimal level of difficulty. I understand this makes its difficult for the fanbase as a whole to appreciate a mod that tries to go too far in one direction or the other and its why I advocate that mod authors consider trying to strike up a balance in the middle. It's really good to have a certain amount of complexity, puzzle, solving, and intricacies - but at the same time if someone wants to construct megaprojects and super laboratories that fit a theme (which themed building seems an integral part to Minecraft itself, not just mods) then by all means, let them.

If Azanor doesn't want this technological feel or scale of automation than perhaps he should remove pipes entirely. I would be disappointed but at least it would be a decisive action that would clean up what people expect of Thaumcraft. If you include pipes though, people are going to want to expect them to "work" like pipes. Pipes operate on a certain set of rules. Yes they are simplified for the sake of functionality in Minecraft mods, yes there is variation to how mods handle them, but ultimately they serve the same purpose. This simplification of pipe logic is part of the willing suspension of disbelief for all of Minecraft including vanilla. We're also not asking to be able to send two or more types of essentia down the pipe at the same time. We're trying to discuss how to send those types down the pipes one after another and have it handled differently based on what it is. If you don't understand that difference please refrain from arguing for or against the idea. You'll end up needlessly arguing over something the rest of us aren't talking about. Besides, Azanor has already provided equipment that doesn't have a problem accepting up to 8 kinds of essentia. So they can mix to a degree and be fine.


Oh, and for infusion? I'm still hung up on alchemy so I haven't gotten that far yet, but I am looking forward to it. It sounds rather awesome and I wouldn't dream of trying to automate that. I don't mind the manual labor that magic takes where appropriate.

I normally like to automate stuff. I have a lot of tech mods like RotatyCraft, TE, Logistic Pipes, BuildCraft, EnderIO and so on and there is nothing more fun then making nice automated machines to do various things.

However I don't do this in Thaumcraft. For some reason I have not yet found a reason to automate anything and also it feels a bit strange to automate magic related things. I might still do this at some point however I'm wondering for what reason people actually automate with Thaumcraft? What resource is needed so much that you'd want to set up automation for it? Just wondering as I haven't gotten that far in Thaumcraft yet. I have done some alchemy and some infusion but nothing else really.

Quote from McJty

I normally like to automate stuff. I have a lot of tech mods like RotatyCraft, TE, Logistic Pipes, BuildCraft, EnderIO and so on and there is nothing more fun then making nice automated machines to do various things.

However I don't do this in Thaumcraft. For some reason I have not yet found a reason to automate anything and also it feels a bit strange to automate magic related things. I might still do this at some point however I'm wondering for what reason people actually automate with Thaumcraft? What resource is needed so much that you'd want to set up automation for it? Just wondering as I haven't gotten that far in Thaumcraft yet. I have done some alchemy and some infusion but nothing else really.

Right now I don't think large scale automation is really important to do Thaumcraft. It's rigged towards making small number of things. For me its automation for the sake of automation, or more accurately the idea of being able to process bulk quantities of random garbage down into essentia whether there is a use for it or not. Though, I can think of a few uses. Warded jars filled with essentia look cool. I was using them for decoration back in Thaumcraft 3.

Then there's the infused items. While I have no interest in automating the infusion process itself, if warded jars and alchemical items around the altar had this tendency to magically stay stocked ALL THE TIME from an automated alchemy workshop lower down in the thaum-tower that would be nice. Last I did infusing it was all back in Thaumcraft 3 but I generally had to make items in threes, fours, fives, etc. As soon as I had my enchanting tables everyone on the server wanted those boots until they had their quantum power armor. I wasn't just making the items for personal use, I was trading them to others on the server in exchange for items from their fields of expertise. "Yeah sure, I'll give you a sword of the zephyr, wand of excavation, and two pair boots for a tank full of pink slime (Minefactory Reloaded)." Or "Yeah, I'll make sure the Axe of the Stream I'm making for you has repair on it if you'll help provide the last dozen or so turbines I need for my Atomic Science fusion reactor." Thaumcraft 4 seems to have taken a huge hit in overall functionality, and pretty much -everything- is now done better by the other mods in the modpacks my group tends to use now so I have lost a lot of that trading power. The only real reason I'd probably have for fully automated alchemy is an alumentum hwacha.

I don't think that many people dislike the current system once they understand it. Granted it's not "set and forget" like it was, and I rather miss my steam punky looking room with pipes running around the walls, but it works very well for what it does. It was never really intended as the principal way to manage essentia for infusion crafting or large scale essentia management. For small builds intended for one particular function, they're brilliant.

Most of us understand that something had to be changed. The pipes as they were were simply drawing too much of a server's resources. I'm not a coder at all, so I'm not in a position to be able to suggest a better solution. I like automation, but I also like having to tend to certain things manually. I don't think Thaumcraft was ever intended to be a mod that could be fully automated.

So, I really don't agree with you that things blatantly need to change. I think there are some gaps in the mod, which Azanor himself has stated he's working on. We always knew he didn't have everything in place that he wants in the mod.

Quote from GrammieFi

I don't think that many people dislike the current system once they understand it. Granted it's not "set and forget" like it was, and I rather miss my steam punky looking room with pipes running around the walls, but it works very well for what it does. It was never really intended as the principal way to manage essentia for infusion crafting or large scale essentia management. For small builds intended for one particular function, they're brilliant.

Most of us understand that something had to be changed. The pipes as they were were simply drawing too much of a server's resources. I'm not a coder at all, so I'm not in a position to be able to suggest a better solution. I like automation, but I also like having to tend to certain things manually. I don't think Thaumcraft was ever intended to be a mod that could be fully automated.

So, I really don't agree with you that things blatantly need to change. I think there are some gaps in the mod, which Azanor himself has stated he's working on. We always knew he didn't have everything in place that he wants in the mod.

Set and forget is a very important feature when dealing with the environment of mixed mod packs. If Thaumcraft is meant to be used entirely by itself or almost by itself then needing to babysit it every step of the way would be a genuine part of the appeal. Does get more difficult to run Thaumcraft set-ups in the background while trying to learning how to set up higher-tier Mekanism ore processing, figuring out how to make an advanced solar panel from some mod I can't even remember, or while getting called to help with the community projects to provide mystcraft linkbooks for the community space program so once our brave explorers reach the moon they can set up warp networks.

Heck, if I'm not stuck flipping valves I might actually be one of those explorers to the moon!

That said, I can deal with it not being possible if Azanor finishes filling in the mod and it becomes possible to do that "steampunky look" again. Well, do it and actually have it functional and practical.

For now I can deal with research difficulty. I love the idea, not so keen on the draconian balancing. I can imagine research can get a bit on one's nerves if the server gets lost to an error or some such and everyone needs to restart.

Quote from McJty

I normally like to automate stuff. I have a lot of tech mods like RotatyCraft, TE, Logistic Pipes, BuildCraft, EnderIO and so on and there is nothing more fun then making nice automated machines to do various things. However I don't do this in Thaumcraft. For some reason I have not yet found a reason to automate anything and also it feels a bit strange to automate magic related things.

Yup, this is where I'm coming from too. I love to build automation, but I would never consider trying to automate anything major in Thaumcraft. It just doesn't fit the feel. Golems to farm for me, sure, OK. A magepunk essentia distillery? Sure. That fits into the theme. But trying to automate, say, infusion crafting? Why...? Infusion crafting and enchanting are the single most fun part of the mod, period. It would be like building a robot to eat my gourmet meals for me while I stayed in the kitchen washing the dishes.

Quote from GrammieFi

I don't think that many people dislike the current system once they understand it. Granted it's not "set and forget" like it was, and I rather miss my steam punky looking room with pipes running around the walls, but it works very well for what it does. It was never really intended as the principal way to manage essentia for infusion crafting or large scale essentia management.

This. I love the look and the elegance of a plumbed essentia distillery. But I wouldn't use it for anything else. It doesn't belong anywhere else.

Quote from ry19994

Sorry, it's me again. Pipes are required for the centrifuge as I don't believe that golems can insert into them directly.

Well, pipes are required for the centrifuge only if you're trying to automate your centrifuge, but really ... why would you? How often do you actually need to spin down a jar of essentia? Just plug a jar directly under the centrifuge and watch it do its thing. The only reason I can see for needing to automate the centrifuge is if you're trying to use Thaumcraft in a mass-production role that, to me, simply is not what it's for. It's called Thaumcraft, not Thaumfactory. But hey, if that's what you want to do ... knock yourself out. No skin off my nose.

I don't for one moment question that the implementation of the tubes needed to be fixed. It was never a problem on my server, but I can see how it would have been so on a server with more players. (I personally wouldn't have implemented the pipes that way in the first place, but that's another subject.) But I would still like to see essentia tubes an option that makes sense to use if you want to, and they aren't that now, because there is nothing that you can now do with tubes that cannot be done more easily without tubes. I sort of partly understand the point of view of the players who say they were "too easy", but, you know, nobody was ever stopping you from doing it with golems instead if that's what you prefer. Saying essentia tubes needed to be nerfed because you thought they were too easy is like saying diamond armor should be removed from vanilla because it's too good. You think diamond armor is too good? Don't wear it. Boom. Done. But don't tell another player that they shouldn't be allowed to wear diamond armor on their server because you think it's "unfairly good" on yours.

Quote from Hyxaru

Azanor, 1.7, goggles of revealing, purple shader.
Minecraft 1.7 has shaders, so another idea for 1.7 update.

if that gives the world a purple tint while wearing the goggles, please no.

it may sound cool now, but it would be really anoying really fast.

Quote from CaerMaster

*snip*
Yup, this is where I'm coming from too. I love to build automation, but I would never consider trying to automate anything major in Thaumcraft. It just doesn't fit the feel. Golems to farm for me, sure, OK. A magepunk essentia distillery? Sure. That fits into the theme. But trying to automate, say, infusion crafting? Why...? Infusion crafting and enchanting are the single most fun part of the mod, period. It would be like building a robot to eat my gourmet meals for me while I stayed in the kitchen washing the dishes.

*snip*

This. I love the look and the elegance of a plumbed essentia distillery. But I wouldn't use it for anything else. It doesn't belong anywhere else.

*snip*

I don't for one moment question that the implementation of the tubes needed to be fixed. It was never a problem on my server, but I can see how it would have been so on a server with more players. (I personally wouldn't have implemented the pipes that way in the first place, but that's another subject.) But I would still like to see essentia tubes an option that makes sense to use if you want to, and they aren't that now, because there is nothing that you can now do with tubes that cannot be done more easily without tubes. I sort of partly understand the point of view of the players who say they were "too easy", but, you know, nobody was ever stopping you from doing it with golems instead if that's what you prefer. Saying essentia tubes needed to be nerfed because you thought they were too easy is like saying diamond armor should be removed from vanilla because it's too good. You think diamond armor is too good? Don't wear it. Boom. Done. But don't tell another player that they shouldn't be allowed to wear diamond armor on their server because you think it's "unfairly good" on yours.

This, very much so. Peaceful aknowledgement of other people's preferences and a much better way to word the features I'm looking for: "Magepunk Essentia Distillery" ftw.

And yeah, I do agree about being more specific about what you automate. I wouldn't bother trying to automate the infusion process even if it were possible. Or the crafting on arcane workbenches. Hunting nodes and bottling the spectacular ones like butterflies is a great deal of fun even if you can't farm up a Thaumcraft 3 4 digit dark node to put in the middle of your tower like the Tower Heart from the Overlord franchise anymore.

Hey there Azanor i just wanted to let you know about a error i found. If you ward a block and then remove the mod that had the block that is warded. it keeps the block there but crashes the server everytime you try to remove the ward from the no longer supposed to be existing block. took a few hours to figure out that one but once we did reinstalling that mod and unwarding those blocks worked fine. Just thought i would let you know

Thank you for all the hard work you have done on this fantastic mod everyone on my server loves your work